Esther Calling - Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Esther Calling - Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible?"

Episode Release Date: January 13, 2025
Podcast: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Host: Esther Perel

---

Introduction

In the episode titled "Esther Calling - Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible?", renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel engages in a profound and intimate dialogue with an anonymous partner grappling with sexual incompatibility in her four-year relationship. The conversation delves deep into the complexities of sexual dynamics, power struggles, past trauma, and the quest for mutual intimacy and understanding.

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Participant's Dilemma: Feeling Overwhelmed and Unfulfilled

The episode opens with the participant expressing her satisfaction with her partner in general but highlighting significant challenges in their sexual relationship.

Anonymous Partner [00:16]:
"Our sexual experience has been like I'm getting gulping streams of water that he's feeding me, like he's trying to turn me on… I just, you know, give in to appease him."
(00:16)

She uses a metaphor of being fed excessive water to illustrate how her partner's attempts to initiate intimacy feel overwhelming and suffocating, contrasting sharply with the controlled and gradual approach that previously ignited her desire.

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Exploring Sexual Scripts and Power Dynamics

Esther Perel probes into the underlying sexual scripts each partner holds, aiming to uncover the root causes of their disconnect.

Esther Perel [04:06]:
"Are you saying I had a way of getting turned on that was about being in charge, pursuing someone who was less interested? And by turning them on, it ignited me?"
(04:06)

The participant confirms this dynamic, revealing that both she and her partner enjoy being the pursuer in the relationship.

Anonymous Partner [06:34]:
"He's very much pursuing, and I like to be the pursuer usually."
(06:34)

This shared tendency sets the stage for their current conflict where neither feels comfortable relinquishing initiation roles.

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Impact of Past Trauma on Present Intimacy

A pivotal moment in the discussion reveals the participant's history of sexual trauma, which significantly impacts her current sexual experiences.

Anonymous Partner [11:09]:
"I have a history of sexual trauma. That really affects, like, my mind. I can rationalize it, but my body still feels it."
(11:09)

Esther emphasizes how this trauma resurfaces when her partner takes charge during intimacy, transforming what should be a pleasurable experience into one that triggers protective and survival instincts.

Esther Perel [12:19]:
"This is not about preferences here. This is about how you stay connected to your pleasure and permission and sexuality versus being sucked into a trauma vortex."
(12:19)

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Strategies for Rebuilding Sexual Connection

To address these deep-seated issues, Esther and the participant brainstorm practical strategies aimed at reestablishing a safe and mutually satisfying sexual connection.

1. Shifting Initiation Roles

Esther suggests that the participant take the lead in initiating intimacy to reclaim her sense of autonomy and safety.

Esther Perel [27:30]:
"Imagine you take his hand and you actually lift it. You say, let me… slowly, if you want to, you bring it to your neck, to your shoulder."
(27:30)

This gradual approach allows the participant to guide her partner's actions, ensuring that each touch feels comfortable and consensual.

2. Introducing Playful Rituals

Incorporating playful and creative rituals can help transform the sexual experience from one of tension to one of exploration and joy.

Esther Perel [31:03]:
"The idea is you go from energetic touch to affectionate touch, to sexual touch and to kinky touch. And you explore together which one of these four blueprints appeal to you."
(31:03)

3. Utilizing Tools and Props

Engaging with various tactile tools like scarves, brushes, feathers, and silk can enhance sensory experiences and foster a sense of control and safety.

Esther Perel [31:17]:
"You can go in both directions as well… explore touch, literally."
(31:17)

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Participant's Progress and Hope for the Future

As the session progresses, the participant begins to feel a sense of relief and newfound clarity regarding her sexual needs and boundaries.

Anonymous Partner [18:05]:
"I’ve come to the realization that him coming onto me feels like an obligation. And it reminds me of the past."
(18:05)

With Esther's guidance, she contemplates initiating conversations with her partner to implement the discussed strategies, fostering a healthier and more respectful sexual relationship.

Esther Perel [34:04]:
"Sex can be deeply wounding. And sex can be deeply healing."
(34:04)

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Conclusion: Moving Towards Mutual Understanding

The session concludes with the participant feeling empowered and less tense about addressing the sexual incompatibility in her relationship. She expresses optimism about implementing the strategies and reconnecting with her partner on a deeper, more intimate level.

Anonymous Partner [45:22]:
"I feel a lot better. I feel less. Not hopeless, but less tense about it."
(45:22)

Esther encourages continued dialogue and mutual participation to ensure both partners feel desired and respected, setting the foundation for a more harmonious sexual connection.

---

Looking Ahead

The episode teases future discussions, including sessions where the partner will join, providing a holistic view of their journey towards sexual compatibility and emotional intimacy.

Esther Perel [46:08]:
"We had a brief session, the three of us. So tune in next week to hear his story."
(46:08)

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Key Takeaways

• Understanding Sexual Scripts: Recognizing and addressing deeply ingrained sexual roles and expectations can alleviate tension and foster mutual satisfaction.

• Healing from Trauma: Acknowledging and navigating past traumas is crucial for rebuilding trust and intimacy in current relationships.

• Empowered Communication: Open, honest, and creative communication strategies are essential in resolving sexual incompatibilities.

• Mutual Respect and Adaptation: Both partners must be willing to adapt and attend to each other's needs to create a fulfilling sexual relationship.

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This episode provides a heartfelt exploration of sexual incompatibility, offering valuable insights and practical strategies for couples facing similar challenges. Esther Perel's compassionate and skilled guidance illuminates the path towards healing and deeper connection.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

In this following session, we discuss sexual assault. And I want you to know this before you listen.

[Anonymous Partner]

My partner and I have been together for about four years now, and he's been the greatest partner I could have ever asked for. But our dilemma is sexually, if he's going to try and turn me on, I want drops of water fed to me until I am like desperately grabbing at the bottle to drink mouthfuls of water. And more importantly, I want that powerful feeling back that I'd had with past partners. But what our sexual experience has been since we started dating is like I'm getting gulping streams of water that he's feeding me, like he's trying to turn me on. And then that stream of water becomes, you know, so much water that I can't breathe. And then also with the added pressure to drink the water. His persistence is how we got together initially. But sexually, it just is not a turn on for me. And I've discussed this with him and his response has been, you know, well, I want to do what's gonna turn you on, and we'll do that as long as it takes. But when we try him backing off of me completely or touching me without the pressure of asking me for sexual, we've only been able to do that for about a week or a week and a half before my partner becomes cold and kind of turns away from me. So then I just, you know, give in to appease him. And I really, truly hate the feeling of giving in out of obligation rather than because I truly want to. The longer our relationship progresses or like moves forward, the more I ask myself, are we just too sexually incompatible or am I just too rigid in my sexual script? And what in my mind and what has worked in the past that turns me on? Am I just too, like, adherent to that?

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[Esther Perel]

So I think what I would like to ask you just for me to understand better, is two things. Are you saying I had a way of getting turned on that was about being in charge, pursuing someone who was less interested. And by turning them on, it ignited me. So that's a certain script, erotic script that I have that I know has often worked well for me. Being in the reverse position now I don't like it. And then I want to understand more about that. And then the second question is, he seems to say to you, I want to do things that you enjoy. My goal is not just to impose something on you and for you to just comply. So in that sense you have a good understanding and a good vibe. But when he does change his tune and he gives you the droplets, he starts to get anxious that the droplets will never amount to more than droplets.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yes to both of the questions.

[Esther Perel]

Let's go in there a little bit. So I. Because your question about are we just incompatible? I don't think this is about an incompatibility of. I mean, you have different sexual scripts, you have different turn ons, you have different rhythms. But that is not what makes it incompatible. Sometimes, you know, two musicians can play very differently, but it's about how they attune to each other. The compatibility is an attunement and a liking. Definitely a liking and preferences go in there. But there's primarily it's how do we find a groove that allows us to play together, to improvise together, Even though we may have completely different ways of playing, that doesn't mean that there is not sometimes real incompatibility. But that's not as a starting point, it's not what I am hearing. Tell me more about. Because you said one other thing, that his insistence actually is what brought us together. So there's different experiences that you have had with his insistence, forcefulness, initiative. What other words would you use?

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah, persistence. Like he's the one pursuing.

[Esther Perel]

Is he your age? Is he older, younger?

[Anonymous Partner]

He's a little bit older than me. He's about four years older than me.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Anonymous Partner]

And even then I wasn't really like into it. I don't like. I like to be the pursuer usually. And he is very much. He also likes to be the pursuer.

[Esther Perel]

And when I am the pursuer, what is it about it?

[Anonymous Partner]

The power of it? Like, I feel powerful. I feel like I'M doing something that not only pleases me, but pleases my partner.

[Esther Perel]

But also, would it be the case to say, when I'm in charge, I know that I do what I want? Yes, when you are in charge, I'm grappling with doing what you want. Yes. And so doing what I want starts by saying no.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. All right.

[Anonymous Partner]

That's like the dynamic that we have currently.

[Esther Perel]

This is not about incompatibility. That's what I was trying to say. If I have to follow you and I have to subject myself to your will, then I end up doing what you want, and I have a loss of autonomy. And that comes with a loss of desire.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah, completely.

[Esther Perel]

And so what happens when it gets reversed? What happens to him when you basically take his hand and you say, here's how we're going to do this, and you guide him in as slow and as deliberate a way as you want. But he's with a woman who is owning her desires. I mean, that's. That in itself can be a real turn on as well.

[Anonymous Partner]

When I initiate and I'm the one sort of like in the control seat or in the driver's seat, it works.

[Esther Perel]

Works means what?

[Anonymous Partner]

So he is into it too. Like, he gets hard and we have sex, and it's more enjoyable. I think it all because it's enjoyable to me. It's more enjoyable to him too. And when we've talked about it, he said, like, it was a lot. It was a different experience when I'm in the driver's seat versus when he.

[Esther Perel]

Is the driver's seat. Has to do with who initiates, with the rhythm, with the power dynamic. With what?

[Anonymous Partner]

With the who initiates and the rhythm of it. Usually I prefer it to be slower, like, more drawn out. Like, I need it to be. I need to fantasize and, like, for it to be slower and stuff like that. And so when I am control of the pace of it and when I initiate, it feels better to me. And I'm more into it and more like, reactive.

[Esther Perel]

And the slow is about just the beat, the rhythm or the slow is about the lack of deliberateness. Slow allows you not to know instantly what this is supposed to be. And so it can be more emerging. And it kind of takes you rather than, you know exactly what you're doing.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah, the slowness allows me to, like, slip into a different headspace. And then it just. Like, I'm doing kind of whatever I feel like in that moment, I'm not really, like, I'm gonna do. I'm gonna kiss him, and then I'm gonna, like, go down on him, and then we're gonna have sex. It's. There's no, like, order to anything.

[Esther Perel]

So what happens when you try to say to him without words even, but when you change the beat, if he starts, can you still adjust the beat, or is it the gear is set and off we go?

[Anonymous Partner]

I don't think I've ever tried to, like, slow it down when he's initiated.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, why not?

[Anonymous Partner]

I think because, like, when he initiates, it feels like my body tenses and my danger signals start to go off. And then at that point, I'm not even, like, in an erotic mind.

[Esther Perel]

I'm like, survival mode in a protective mind.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me more.

[Anonymous Partner]

I have a history of sexual trauma.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Anonymous Partner]

That really affects, like, my mind. I can rationalize it, but my body still feels it. So, like, in my mind, I can tell myself I'm safe. I'm not with that person. This is a different person. I'm okay. Like, it's fine. When I go into that mode and I'm telling myself, like, I'm safe, I'm okay letting it happen, like, letting him touch me. It takes a little bit for me to relax and then to be able to slip into my erotic mind. I don't think I verbalized it in the moment. Like, I need time. It's always been like, I'm telling myself in my own head, but I'm not saying it out loud. And the time that I need for my body to let go isn't fast enough to where he likes, like, for his tempo.

[Esther Perel]

Does he know this?

[Anonymous Partner]

He knows about the assault. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. But does he know how? There's something about his being in charge that brings back the memory of being overpowered, of doing something unwanted. It's anything but erotic. It's about violence, not about sex. And so you need to give yourself signals to tell you I'm not in danger. This is about pleasure and about connection. But it takes a moment. When you're in charge, it's faster. It's easier, because you learned that it's a beautiful thing you did. You turned it upside down. You were able to connect erotically with yourself by flipping the power dynamic. It's great. But when he takes charge, that's not so easy for you to do. And so it needs cues that you give yourself to yourself, to your body, to your sensations. And that's not just, I need time because I like it slower. It actually has very little to do with slower, because when you're in charge. It can be very fast. There's something in the switch of the power dynamic and in the I want versus you want, and I have to do what you want, and I have no say. I have no sovereignty. I have no autonomy. And therefore, of course, I have no desire. I can tap into my desire when I am in charge, because when I'm in charge, I'm not just in charge, but I'm in touch with my wanting. And my wanting is my freedom. Your wanting is my prison.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah. I don't think I've ever articulated it.

[Esther Perel]

Like that to him and to yourself.

[Anonymous Partner]

Very recently, like, within the last couple days, like, I've come to the realization that him coming onto me feels like an obligation. And it reminds me of the past.

[Esther Perel]

More. More. It's less it's an obligation, but it's also. There's something assaultive about it.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yes. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And reassuring yourself that this is safe and I am here with my boyfriend is in order to diminish the assaultiveness to something that is more caring. I mean, he loves you. He wants you.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What happened two days ago?

[Anonymous Partner]

I just been thinking about my submission and, like, just been thinking about it and really, like, checking in with myself and feeling how my body reacts to what I'm thinking. And I felt like recently I felt an immense amount of, like, relief. Like, I've. I'm like, this is what it is.

[Esther Perel]

How long ago was it?

[Anonymous Partner]

Years ago. It's been like, maybe 10 to 15, because I've been assaulted at different periods of my life, and so. But the last time was about 15 years ago.

[Esther Perel]

Do you think he would understand? I would love for him to be here with you, by the way.

[Anonymous Partner]

I know. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Does he know you're here?

[Anonymous Partner]

He does. This has been an issue for, like, years now. And so we've tried different things, and I've tried different things on my own. I think when I submitted it initially, I was feeling like this is my problem to solve.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, I wouldn't use that verb, but in a beautiful way, you actually solved it. You found a way to connect to your erotic self by flipping the dynamic. But something happens to you that is unwanted when he comes on, and especially when he comes on. What you call fast is also forceful somewhat. Doesn't leave you much room for negotiation. That feels that. That turns it into an obligation, you know, and it's very fast and subtle and physical. This is not stuff people articulate in words. It's one hand this way versus that way. And that instantly triggers you to use an overword. But here it actually fits and it brings back, you know, submission is no longer pleasurable. It becomes coercive, it becomes reminiscent. And there is nothing of a turn on there. So the question is, this is not. I like it slow and I like the water droplets. The water droplets are in the service of something. And at this point, he may think it's a matter of, I like it this way, she likes it that way. That's not what this is about. This is not about preferences here. This is about how you stay connected to your pleasure and permission and sexuality versus being sucked into a trauma vortex.

[Anonymous Partner]

I don't think I've said it that way to him. Like, when I realized what was happening for myself, I didn't say anything to him.

[Esther Perel]

But that's what happened two days ago. Or that's. You knew before.

[Anonymous Partner]

No, not before two days ago.

[Esther Perel]

I know. I'm glad we talked today because it takes a moment. Part of how you say it to him and how he hears it and receives it will be a very central part of your erotic intimacy. Because you're with a good guy who wants you to feel good. And if he understands why he needs to do certain things differently, it'll be an act of love. But you didn't understand it and you didn't necessarily connect the dots. And neither, of course, has he right now, but he will.

[Anonymous Partner]

He's a good guy. He loves me and wants for this to be a mutual thing.

[Esther Perel]

So in order for us to connect well sexually, we have to create little practices, rituals, scripts that allow me to bypass a certain kind of neuroplasticity, you know, a kind of trigger points so that I can remember that I can stay in the sexual zone and not veer into the trauma zone.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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[Anonymous Partner]

I have asked him for us to take sort of like sex off of the table for now, but still be intimate. Like still be kissing and touching and cuddling without a pressure of sex. And, and it sort of became like he was okay with it. He said, yeah, that's what he like, if that's what it takes, then yes. But he also has sexual needs and I don't know how long it's gonna take for me to feel like safe with him being in the driver's seat. I don't know. I, I suggested maybe we open the relationship on his part so that he can have his sexual needs, like the physical act of sex, taken care of for him while we work on this. And we're kind of, that's where we've paused.

[Esther Perel]

But that's all without understanding why and what for. That was more kind of a response to the symptoms rather than a response to the causes. So everything changes once you put it in context. Maybe you'll discover a play together fantasy together in which you're in charge of his getting in charge. You drive the driver. Or this is for the two of you to be sexually creative together in a way that is healing.

[Anonymous Partner]

That's really In a different perspective than even where I was like thinking, because I, even in my own mind or like my own realization was like his touches were creating a sense of like my danger signal was going. And so I needed, like, my focus was I needed to start to get used to and feel safe with his touches, with him being in the driver's seat.

[Esther Perel]

Right. For example, tell me something he does that instantly tenses you.

[Anonymous Partner]

It's only when he's touching, like my breasts or my vulva.

[Esther Perel]

So imagine that you take the hand while he's on you. You take his hand and you actually lift it. You say, let me. And then you bring it gradually to your neck, to your shoulder, to your arm. And slowly, if you want to, you bring it to your breast. But you're bringing his hand. That's driving the driver. He goes to your vulva, you take his hand, you take his dick, whatever it is, and you guide it in a way that is comfortable, safe and pleasurable to you. Maybe it first needs to go to your hair, to your head, to your ear, to your neck, to your nape. And only then slowly. Maybe. But it's not because you remove yourself that you're going to suddenly learn to tolerate it. It's because you play with touch and you make the touch become the touch that you can welcome. There's not one way, you know, but this is the one that I think of as we speak today. How does that sound to you? Can you visualize it when I describe it?

[Anonymous Partner]

I can. Yeah. Like when you were describing it, I was like in my head picturing it. And like that feels. My body doesn't react the same way. Like it feels good.

[Esther Perel]

How so? How do you know when it's good? Cuz you know when it's not.

[Anonymous Partner]

When it's good. I'm not even like I'm very not in my mind, I'm very in my body. Like I'm feeling everything and it feels good. Like there's tingling and like warm and swirling and like. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So imagine you take his hand and you don't even touch. You hover is what my friend Jaya calls energetic touch. You just hover over it very, very, very gently. Imagine that your hand is just touching the hair that's on your arm. But you can do it to him. The idea is you go from energetic touch to affectionate touch, to sexual touch and to kinky touch. And you explore together which one of these four blueprints appeal to you. And sometimes you have more than one. Sometimes you're a shape shifter, sometimes you Have a preference for one, but just the fact that you can even hover without putting his hand on you. But you feel the sensation of it as if it was touching you. But it doesn't, because it's the energy that reaches you and that he sees you lead him to give you exactly what you want. At that moment. I see your eyes turning in front of me, so I'm gonna let you finish the imagery.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah, it's just like discovering or, like playing with different things and seeing what feels good. And I'm in control of that. Like, guiding him.

[Esther Perel]

And you can do it with him, too. You can go in both directions as well. You can go into your closet and take out scarves and brushes and feathers and silk and all kinds of things and explore touch, literally. But the point is, you will be driving the driver. It doesn't matter what thing you use. It's that you'll be in a dialogue with what makes you feel good rather than in an avoidance of what feels painful.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah, we played around with, like, sensate touching, like, progressively touching each other, and that was really nice, but it was just, like, physical touch. Not really like, the different levels that you described. And, yeah, I would be, like, way more interested in playing around more with that.

[Esther Perel]

I like the way that you use the word play because it involves curiosity, exploration, discovery, novelty, and it's fun. Usually you don't play and suffer. So if you say I want to play differently with you, I want us to explore a whole bunch of things. I have a sense that he will follow you.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah, he's always been open to, like, trying new things with me and even suggesting things. So, yeah, I have no doubt that he would be open.

[Esther Perel]

How did he respond to you when you told him about the assholes?

[Anonymous Partner]

It was quite a while ago. It was, like, a couple years into dating that I disclosed. And he was very warm. I remember. Like, I don't remember exactly what he said, but I remember how he made me feel.

[Esther Perel]

That's more important.

[Anonymous Partner]

He made me feel very safe and, like, it was a relief. He accepts me.

[Esther Perel]

Did you worry about that? Sometimes.

[Anonymous Partner]

Not now. Like, I was more worried about that when we were first dating. But now I feel like I can tell him anything. Like, I feel very secure.

[Esther Perel]

That's why it seems to me that rather than trying to push this thing away or to just address the symptoms and the discomforts together to join into erotic healing. Sex can be deeply wounding. And sex can be deeply healing.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah, I felt that very acutely. Like, that I've been deeply wounded but I've also felt like a sense of healing. Not completely, but I felt like I was taking my power back and that felt healing.

[Esther Perel]

Yep. With him or before him?

[Anonymous Partner]

Before him.

[Esther Perel]

In many ways I often say there is no greater power than voluntary surrender. But the word voluntary is in capital letters.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah, I felt that in my chest.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, your chest just touched my chest.

[Anonymous Partner]

Like willingly letting go.

[Esther Perel]

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

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[Esther Perel]

And you need to explain to him that in some way you need a different ritual of beginning that when he comes on full force that there's nothing wrong with it, but it just sends the wrong messages. He's not doing anything off. It clicks in the wrong place. So we need to adjust. Our sex is good. It could be better, but we're exploring, we're enjoying, we're connecting. If we start off right and right means if we start off in a way that does not threw me back.

[Anonymous Partner]

That feels a lot better. Because when we've had discussions about it in the past, like when he's gotten frustrated when I don't respond the way that like I'm not in it. He has said it takes you so like you have to try so hard to respond to me. And in that it feels like he's taking on. He feels like there's something wrong with him.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Like it's a rejection. Yes. You tell him it had nothing to do with you.

[Anonymous Partner]

I have.

[Esther Perel]

But not just as a statement. There's things that connect in my body differently because of what I experienced. If I get to bypass those, the coast is clear for me. Maybe, I don't know. You send me a note before that just says I'm inviting you tonight, today, tomorrow, whatever. But something that doesn't feel like you're forcing yourself on me. That's all. That's all I can't take it instantly obliterates me. And you're not doing anything wrong. But we need to adjust this so that we don't derail. And we can explore together six different ways. I'm just throwing a number, you know, a host of different ways for us to just bypass this. Maybe when you come on, I get up and then I go out for five minutes, and then I come back, but this time I'm the one coming back and opening the door. And we've shifted the whole thing, but we're doing it in playful modes, not in argument ways. But in the. In this play that you described before, maybe you call me by another name for a minute. Maybe we switch language for a minute. Maybe whatever it is, we put a piece of orange in each other's mouth, whatever we do. But something that doesn't put me in that position where I have to be alone with myself in my head to try to convince me that what you want is actually something nice and that I. You know, because none of this turns me on. And I feel guilty because I'm hurting you. And I feel bad because I feel like, what's wrong with me? And you feel bad because you feel like, what's wrong with you? And this whole thing becomes one negative pull.

[Anonymous Partner]

It's just like. Because we've had this issue for so long, and we've always come to this point where we're not having sex, and I reject. And then he gets mad. Like, it's all.

[Esther Perel]

It's so cyclical, and you hope he's not going to think about it. And he thinks about it, and he says, why do you never think about it? And you say, why do you only think about it? Yeah. And he says, when are you ever gonna want. And you're gonna say, when are you ever gonna not think about that?

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Do you have an idea of what you would like as an initiation ritual?

[Anonymous Partner]

I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, if you take a minute to imagine what would be a different way that keeps you on the pleasure path.

[Anonymous Partner]

The only ways I can think about it is the way that's worked for me in the past, where I'm the one initiating. Like, I'm the one initiating the kiss. Kissing his neck, going down and, like, going down on him. And then, like, I'm holding his penis and, like, putting it inside. Like, I'm the one doing everything. And that's worked for me in the past. I've never explored driving the driver.

[Esther Perel]

You like the idea?

[Anonymous Partner]

I do. Yeah. Like, that's something I've never even thought to do. Or, like, I don't even know how. Where to begin. But that's definitely, like, piqued My interest, because he likes to be in the driver's seat too. So it satisfies both of us, I think.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Because otherwise it. It feels too passive for him.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And it feels like it's on your terms whenever you want.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And can he ever feel wanted? Can he ever want. And you respond simply. Imagine he kisses you and you just take his face and then you redo it. It's very subtle. It's subtle because you actually like the whole experience. What you don't like is when it instantly feels like you're being robbed of your free will.

[Anonymous Partner]

And I want him to feel wanted and I want him to feel like he has permission to want me.

[Esther Perel]

Sometimes when you start to sing off key, you go on singing and it just never feels like you're in the right note. And sometimes we need somebody who corrects us at the beginning and says, no, no, lower, higher, this way. And then you start the song again and you sing it flawlessly. Sometimes what happens in sex is that people get used to something and then it becomes their routine, even if they don't like it. And then at first, when they just met, they try to adapt to the routine because they like the person and they don't want them to feel bad. And then as the years unfold and they get more comfortable in the relationship, they start to feel like shit. The routine doesn't suit me one bit. And we are at that moment where I'm saying change the routine. There's a bit of adjustment that needs to happen here. It demands good communication, but you've got the trust, you've got the security, you've got the love.

[Anonymous Partner]

I feel a lot better. I feel less. Not hopeless, but less tense about it.

[Esther Perel]

So you can go back and bring this to him and then let us know if you want to be here together. And we'll. Because he has his story about it too. And then we'll see how we can attune this.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah, I feel he would be willing to participate.

[Esther Perel]

Great. I look forward to meeting him.

[Anonymous Partner]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Shall we stop here? Yeah.

[Anonymous Partner]

Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

With this big smile on your face.

[Anonymous Partner]

Yeah, I just. I feel good.

[Esther Perel]

He did agree to come in and meet with me alone, which we did. And then we had a brief session, the three of us. So tune in next week to hear his story. The way he experiences their relationship. And then what happened when they both came together.

[Sponsor]

This was an estare calling. A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Atten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.