Esther Calling - Grief is Like a Fingerprint

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Esther Calling - Grief is Like a Fingerprint"

Introduction

In the December 2, 2024 episode of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel, titled "Esther Calling - Grief is Like a Fingerprint," psychotherapist Esther Perel delves deep into the intricate and multifaceted nature of grief. Co-host David Kessler guides a heartfelt conversation with a caller who shares her profound experiences with loss, exploring how grief uniquely shapes each individual's emotional landscape.

Understanding Grief as a Unique Intelligence

The episode opens with Esther and David discussing the theme of recent episodes, focusing on "courageous conversations" that are often avoided or kept internal. The conversation centers on grief, particularly the death of the caller's older father and the subsequent suicide of her younger sister. David Kessler introduces the idea that grief is as unique as fingerprints, emphasizing that while each person's grief journey is distinct, there's a universal need for their pain to be acknowledged without judgment or attempts to minimize it.

Notable Quote:
David Kessler ([06:35]): “Each person's grief is as unique as their fingerprints. But what everyone has in common is that no matter how they grieve, they share a need for their grief to be witnessed.”

The Caller’s Experience: A Dual Loss

The caller recounts the simultaneous grief of losing her father to old age and dementia, followed by her sister’s unexpected suicide three months later. This dual loss created a tumultuous emotional environment, leaving her feeling overwhelmed and isolated.

Notable Quote:
Caller ([04:15]): “I feel like I've gotten this, like, crash course in grief since then. And I think that grief is an intelligence and part of life...”

Navigating the Paradox of Grief

The caller expresses a paradoxical struggle: while grieving, she attempts to connect with others by sharing her pain, only to feel lonelier and develop negative feelings like contempt. She grapples with the desire for others to empathize with her suffering without minimizing her experience.

Notable Quote:
Caller ([04:15]): “I just want someone to, like, give me a gold medal for having the most pain. And that doesn't, like, seem intelligent to me.”

David Kessler and Esther Perel explore how grief can surface both the best and worst in individuals, highlighting the complexity of emotions that arise during loss.

Parts of Self: Mourning and Rebirth

Through the conversation, the caller describes a sense of duality within herself: one part feels as if it’s dying, while another feels like it’s being reborn. This transformation brings heightened sensitivity and a newfound appreciation for the small details of life, such as noticing animals or the wind, indicating a deeper connection to the present moment.

Notable Quote:
Caller ([10:00]): “I just have like a new sensitivity to other people, to like, to people's pain, to people's, just like how they are...”

Rituals and Collective Mourning

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the importance of rituals in processing grief. The caller reflects on missing out on family reunions and expresses a desire to create meaningful rituals that honor her sister's memory. She envisions a celebratory event with dancing and karaoke, mirroring her sister’s vibrant spirit.

Notable Quote:
Caller ([15:33]): “For my sister, it would be something with dancing and just kind of like a wild party. ... she was always up for anything.”

David Kessler underscores the necessity of rituals in allowing individuals and families to collectively acknowledge and celebrate the deceased’s life, facilitating healing and integration of grief.

Managing Internal Conflicts and External Expressions

The caller admits to experiencing intense emotions like rage and contempt towards others, stemming from her grief. She recognizes that these feelings are part of her internal coping mechanisms but struggles with how they impact her relationships.

Notable Quote:
Caller ([40:29]): “We are all going to be different.”

David Kessler emphasizes that grief manifests uniquely in each person, encouraging acceptance of varying expressions within a family or social circle. He advises creating space for each individual's way of handling loss, avoiding judgment or competition over who is suffering more.

Metaphors and Moving Forward

The conversation touches on metaphors that illustrate the enduring impact of grief. The caller references Julian Barnes’ metaphor, likening grief to a seagull emerging from an oil slick—forever marked and transformed by loss.

Notable Quote:
Caller ([28:12]): “We emerge. We don't emerge from grief like a train coming out of a tunnel strong and fast and into the light. We are more like a seagull that comes out of an oil slick, tarred and feathered for life.”

David Kessler reinforces the idea that grief is not a linear process but a continuous journey of integrating loss into one’s identity and life narrative.

Conclusion: Embracing Grief’s Depth

As the episode concludes, Esther and David encourage listeners to acknowledge the depth and complexity of their grief. They highlight the importance of collective support and the creation of personalized rituals to honor lost loved ones. The caller leaves the conversation with a sense of hope, understanding that while grief profoundly changes her, it also opens doors to new dimensions of self-awareness and connection.

Notable Quote:
David Kessler ([48:17]): “I think you're going into the holidays with this. Hopefully with this new frame in mind.”

Final Thoughts

"Grief is Like a Fingerprint" offers a compassionate exploration of how loss uniquely shapes individuals. Through the caller’s heartfelt narrative and expert guidance from Esther Perel and David Kessler, the episode provides valuable insights into navigating the multifaceted emotions of grief, emphasizing the need for personal and collective acknowledgment and the creation of meaningful rituals to foster healing.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

In the recent episodes, I've been focusing.

[David Kessler]

On courageous conversations, or conversations actually that.

[Esther Perel]

We typically avoid, or things that we sweep under the rug, or conversations we.

[David Kessler]

Have in our own head sometimes instead of actually with the person with whom we should be having the conversation with.

[Esther Perel]

Or conversations that are in our own.

[David Kessler]

Head because we no longer can actually talk to the person with whom we would like to have this conversation because they're not there anymore.

[Esther Perel]

And so this episode is about grief. It's about loss.

[David Kessler]

It centers around the death of an older father, which seems to be part of the normal order of things. Parents go before their children, but then.

[Esther Perel]

Also the death of a sibling by.

[David Kessler]

Suicide, which feels like a massive interruption in the fabric of life in the thread. And as you listen to this episode, I want you to please take care of yourself. Know that this is about grief, but.

[Esther Perel]

Also about how this can actually become.

[David Kessler]

Not something that we sweep under the rug and avoid or get pissed at.

[Esther Perel]

Internally, but that actually we begin to understand that there are many parts to.

[David Kessler]

A conversation and we sometimes only inhabit one piece of the larger story, and other members of our family or our.

[Esther Perel]

Circle will actually highlight those parts. And it's not because our parts are.

[David Kessler]

The truer ones and they should switch.

[Esther Perel]

It's because the complexity of some of the large human experiences are multifaceted and we have a way, each of us.

[David Kessler]

To just express one piece of the.

[Esther Perel]

Facet as it should be.

[David Kessler]

So let's listen.

[Esther Perel]

Support for Where Should we begin?

[David Kessler]

Comes from Saks.com it's not always easy to find the right gift for someone, but it feels really special when you.

[Esther Perel]

Do get it right. Saks.com has a holiday gift guide that can make it all easy. You can surprise your sister with a Chloe bracelet bag or your partner with.

[David Kessler]

A new scent from Gucci.

[Esther Perel]

You can even warm up your home with some new decor or warm up yourself with a new scarf from Totem. You can start making the holidays special with a handpicked guide from Saks.com support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Autograph Collection Hotels Autograph Collection hotels offer over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Hand selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences, from medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the [e-mail] shall we listen to your question?

[David Kessler]

And then if there's anything you want to Add to it.

[Caller]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

We can tweak it. Okay, let's do that.

[Producer]

Yep.

[Caller]

The question that I would love to talk to Esther about is understanding grief. And the context is that my dad, two years ago, died. He was 86, and he died of old age and dementia. And then three months later.

My little.

Sister died from suicide, and she was 35, and she has three kids, little kids. And so I feel like I've gotten this, like, crash course in grief since then. And I think that grief is an intelligence and part of life and a part that's not really, like, exalted or well understood or, like, acknowledged, at least, like, in Western society. And so I think it's an intelligence. But then there's this paradox where I find myself trying to connect with other people and, like, getting out of my shell and sharing about it. But then a lot of sometimes I feel lonelier after that, and I just experience these feelings that, like, feel ugly. Like, I have contempt for other people, and I just think their problems are so stupid or so small and that they should just get over it and feel bad for me and because my. I just want someone to, like, give me a gold medal for having the most pain. And that doesn't, like, seem intelligent to me. And so just kind of. That paradox is something that I would love to just talk about.

[David Kessler]

Taking a moment to sit with this very profound and big question. What's it like for you to hear it, to hear your own question?

[Caller]

It makes me sad. It's like I'm listening to someone else. Like I'm disconnected, even though I'm the one that I'm the one whose voice.

[David Kessler]

It is disconnected from pain. So you let her feel the feelings when she was asking the questions, and then another part of you today is trying to hold it together.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

I had a sentence that I was remembering as I listened to your question. And it's a quote by David Kessler in his book Finding the Sixth Stage of Grief. And it says, each person's grief is as unique as their fingerprints. But what everyone has in common is that no matter how they grieve, they share a need for their grief to be witnessed. And that doesn't mean needing someone to.

[Esther Perel]

Try to lessen it or reframe it.

[David Kessler]

For them, the need is for someone to be fully present to the magnitude of their loss. Without trying to point out the silver lining, what is your question?

[Caller]

Why is grief so confusing? And why does it bring out. I think it's brought out the best and the highest in me and other people and Also the worst.

[David Kessler]

Meaning that you get contempt and you get upset when people don't meet you, when you feel that you are in the gulf of this unbearable, unending pain and they're just living on a different.

[Caller]

Planet or they try to. Yeah, like, be the silver lining. And I don't usually want the silver lining.

[David Kessler]

I also love the way you said grief is this intelligence. It's telling me a lot of different things. You know, there's another line that David has that I often think in because it's so. He says you don't have to experience grief, but you can only avoid it by avoiding love. Love and grief are inextricably intertwined. So when you think about this unbearable pain, it connects directly to two people that you cared about and loved deeply. And sometimes we think people don't understand my grief because they don't understand the magnitude of my loss. But sometimes it's because they don't understand the magnitude of my love. So you say I'm surprised that I'm having nasty thoughts, primitive feelings that are unbecoming to me. They're not who I am usually. And this grief is kind of making me feel and say and do things that are unusual for me. What am I learning from it? This is the intelligence, right? Yeah. Grief is not always sweet, polished, well behaved by far. It puts you in touch with the extremes.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

Tell me more.

[Caller]

I almost feel. It's like when I've had those losses, part of me died and is like still dying, but then another part of me is like being born and like my family of origin, I think, died as I knew it. And it's still just kind of like a rubble of people trying to figure out kind of the new. I don't know if it's like a new baby that's been born. We're all just like kind of clumsy and we're all handling it differently. But then I guess the parts that I like or the extreme things that I didn't do before are that I'm. I just have like a new sensitivity to other people, to like, to people's pain, to people's, just like how they are. I notice things like, I noticed faces and like facial features and I. I like to think that I like, scroll on my phone less, you know, and it's. It is like this primitive thing. I notice animals. I notice like the wind. I never noticed that before, but I.

[David Kessler]

Have developed an uncanny awareness in the details of the world around me. The human world, the animal world, the natural world, the spiritual world. I notice absence And I notice presence, I notice joy, I notice pain and suffering, I notice calm, I notice agitation, I notice security, I notice fear.

[Caller]

But it. Well, yeah. And the, like, the mystery. I don't think I've ever been one that accepts. Yeah, a lot of mystery. But there's just so much uncertainty and impermanence and it's beautiful. And it's also just painful, sometimes incredibly fragile. Yes.

[David Kessler]

Who is left in the family of origin and who is the chosen family? There may be more than one.

[Caller]

Yes, the chosen family. My husband and two children. I have a toddler and then a 7 year old. And then my family of origin, my mom and two older brothers.

[David Kessler]

And are there other members of the chosen family that were very connected to your family of origin? Extended family, friends, neighbors?

[Caller]

Yeah. Yes.

[David Kessler]

And have there been rituals that have brought all the people together because the person died but the relationship didn't die?

[Caller]

The only thing I can think of is the funeral.

[David Kessler]

And since the funeral?

[Caller]

No.

[David Kessler]

Neither for your sister nor for your father?

[Caller]

No.

[David Kessler]

And is that something you feel a need to do?

[Caller]

Yes.

[David Kessler]

Okay. For both of them separately? Together.

[Caller]

One of them, probably both of them.

[David Kessler]

Separately or together Separately.

[Caller]

I chose to not attend a family reunion that was like six months after she died. They like released lanterns. So I guess everyone went to that except for me and my chosen family.

[David Kessler]

Why not?

[Caller]

Because I was too painful to think about being with everyone and I felt too reactive. I'm not sure why other than my gut just said like, I can't go right now.

[David Kessler]

But you were not against it happening. You just didn't feel. You felt too bereft to be there.

[Caller]

Yes.

[David Kessler]

And would you family understand if you said, I think I'm. I need something now?

[Caller]

Yes.

[David Kessler]

And I would love for us to be on this together. And what would you want it to be if you could design the ritual? Rituals is one of the ways that every culture and civilization has dealt with loss and mourning and grief.

[Caller]

For my sister, it would be something with dancing and just kind of like a wild party. Party? Yeah, with like karaoke. She'd always, you know, we're opposites in many ways, but she was always up for anything. Any restaurant. She'd get up at any restaurant in front of any number of people and just sing her heart out. She didn't care what people thought in one way. So, yeah, something like that.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break.

[David Kessler]

So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

[Esther Perel]

Support for where should we begin? Comes from autograph collection hotels. Autograph collection hotels offer over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Every hotel in this collection is inspired by a clear vision and a story that makes it individual and special. Guests are offered unforgettable experiences that leave a lasting imprint, from practicing medieval falconry on an Irish country estate, to exploring ancient Costa Rican mangroves, to tasting volcanic wines on the Greek island of Santorini. Hand selected for their inherent craft and distinct perspectives, each hotel tells its own unique story through immersive design. Whether inspired by the horse and mule barns of Texas or the 13th century monasteries of Prague, there's something for everyone. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the [e-mail] support for the show comes from Zbiotics Zbiotics Pre Alcohol Probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic. It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut, but pre alcohol produces an enzyme to break this by product down. Just remember to make Zbiotics your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I really enjoyed the taste of the pre alcohol drink and I felt like it helped me get a better night's sleep. Go to zbiotics.com estaire to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use ester at checkout. Zbiotics is backed with a 100% money back guarantee. If you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Again, that's zbiotics.com estair and use the code ESTHER at checkout for 15% off. Support for where should we Begin Comes from Huntress. Huntress is one of today's fastest growing cybersecurity companies. Its platform was designed from the ground up to work for small to mid sized businesses and it promises enterprise grade security driven by technology, services and expertise needed to defend against today's cyber threats.

[David Kessler]

All at a price that makes sense.

[Esther Perel]

Today, even the least sophisticated hackers can still do a ton of damage to your small business. That's why Huntress build a fully managed, highly sophisticated security platform for its customers to guard against potentially devastating threats. Plus, you can rest assured that the people working in their 247 security operations center will offer real protection all day every day. So if you want cutting edge cybersecurity backed by experts who monitor, investigate and respond to Threats with unmatched precision. You can visit Huntress.com to learn more and start your free trial.

[David Kessler]

Is her death by suicide a surprise for you or something you worried and anticipated, or where does it sit with you?

[Caller]

I mean, it was fully on all of our radar. She was. She'd been in the hospital. She was on all kinds of meds, so it. It didn't shock me on one hand, but on the other hand, it's shocking.

[David Kessler]

You're seeing something as you're saying this.

[Caller]

I don't think. Oh, I know she didn't want to die. I just think she was too sick, and she wanted to be out of pain, and so I think she must have. Well, I don't know. I'm just giving my meaning to the story. But the only thing that makes sense is that she had to have believed that everyone would be better if she weren't here. You know, this isn't the first time she'd had really, you know, kind of scary depression. She'd been suicidal before, but it had worked out, and this time, it didn't.

[David Kessler]

Mm. And you have tried to tell her many times. This idea that we would be better off without you is so off. I miss you. I miss you deeply every day.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

Do you talk to her?

[Caller]

No. I have written a few letters to her, and my therapist, like, invited me to just have a list of unanswerable questions. Haven't done it in a while. But I. I mean, I see her. I see her kids. She has three little girls, and I talk to them.

[David Kessler]

And you talk about her.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, I do. I try to be present with her kids. I know that she. Like, when she was healthy, you know, she could be present with them, and she. She was obsessed with them in a way that any mom understands. And even, you know, at the end, it just was so disturbing because she would. Yeah, she couldn't be present with them. Her body was there, but she didn't want to be there. And I'm sure that her kids, at some level, knew that. So I try to make eye contact with him and just be engaged with them.

[David Kessler]

And do karaoke.

[Caller]

Yes. I haven't done karaoke, but I should. For them.

[David Kessler]

And you don't. With them.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, that's what she would do.

[David Kessler]

Mm.

[Caller]

Her death is such a. It seems just so catastrophic that I don't always remember my dad because he died almost. Because, I mean, being more aware of just, like, feeling almost primitive, like it's expected that your parent will die before you. My dad was 50 when I was born. And so, you know, he already. People thought he was my grandpa growing up. And I just. I think I knew inside he was going to die. But then the out of order ness and that she. My sister was younger, she's the youngest. It's just so shocking and almost makes my dad's death look like happy.

[David Kessler]

His passing is then, is in the normal order of things, but hers is an abrupt interruption.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

Do you have witnesses who can hold you, who can just let you go through it without rationalizing, without trying to make it into a lesson or.

[Caller]

Yeah, I do.

[David Kessler]

Or without trying to minimize it, for that matter, who just know. This is so painful. Acute at first and lonely. Very, very lonely. Because it feels like no one can reach you there. And it doesn't end as in it's not something one gets through. We become bigger and we learn to include it inside ourselves to hold it. But we expand around it rather than getting through it. And it takes time. And it takes rituals that celebrate her, that mourn her, that give meaning to who she was, not just to her absence. And some of those primitive feelings you have are all quite normal because we are angry that this happened. It's unfair, it's stupid. It feels. How can I accept this can't be true? I still can't believe it. So we have the denial, we have the anger. We have the problem to accept it. And then we do. Yes, she was struggling and it wasn't totally surprising. But if this, if that, and we circle around and circle around and if she was here today, she would say and she would think and she would smile and she. And so she goes. But the relationship stays. It's actually not that confusing. As you were asking. It's about, wow, this thing takes me to places I never knew existed inside of me. From the acute awareness to what you tell me.

[Caller]

Well, I don't know. Rage. And the rage says, my pain hurts more than yours. Or. Yeah, your problems are small. You bug the shit out of me. Go away.

[David Kessler]

Good. Keep going. There's many parts in you. This is one. The rage. He looks at people. He says, this is what makes you struggle. Want me to show you mine?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

But then the same, Another part in you. Sorry, not the same. Another part in you recognizes those who don't know sometimes how to express it and zooms into that pain and says, I see you. That's part of that hyper awareness. Right. And what does that part say?

[Caller]

That this pain, like your pain's mine?

[David Kessler]

Yeah. Is there another part.

[Caller]

That. Yeah, this is this, like, beautiful dimension I've never known about and sometimes I wouldn't mind not knowing about it. And in a way like the realization that I don't think any of us have as long as we think sometimes. And so just, you know, less pretending, more honesty.

[David Kessler]

So I don't just feel the fragility. I also feel the preciousness. Treasure it, savor it. Don't take it for granted. Don't waste it. Don't just walk like a ghost through it. Value it, appreciate it. Hold on to it. Fight for it. Keep going.

[Caller]

There's an author, Julian Barnes. Do you know him? You probably know the book that this is from, but he has a metaphor about that. We emerge. We don't emerge from grief like a train coming out of a tunnel strong and fast and into the light. We are more like a seagull that comes out of an oil slick, tarred and feathered for life. And sometimes I feel like the train and sometimes I feel like the seawall.

[David Kessler]

It's beautiful. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

[Esther Perel]

Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Quince. One of the simple pleasures of cooler weather is snuggling up under your warm sheets. Whether you're with your partner or cozying up alone, Quince offers soft and luxurious high quality bedding that will keep you warm all winter long. Quince uses high quality materials like European linen and organic cotton to give that five star hotel feel. And that goes for their ultra plush duvets, quilts, pillows and shams too. And like Quince's clothing, their bedding is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. The quality and feel of their sheets and bedding are so luxurious, a feeling I associate with all Queen's products that I have in my home. You can turn up the luxury when you turn in with quince. Go to quince.com begin to get free shipping and 365 day returns on your next order. That's quince. Quinc.com begin for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com begin support for where Should We Begin? Comes from Defender an intrepid spirit can take many forms. Maybe you're an adventurous eater who will travel hundreds of miles for the perfect meal. Maybe you're living out the van life fantasy. Or maybe you're a die hard mountain lover who only feels at home in the woods. Whatever the case, the most devout adventurers will always find ways to push themselves to go farther, stay longer and push harder. And now there's a luxury vehicle that can keep up the Defender 110. The whole Defender family of vehicles has been engineered for a new generation of Explorers, built with robust materials and tested to the extreme. All to ensure comprehensive on and off road capabilities, complete with a tough rigid body design and durable lightweight architecture for extra strength and maneuverability. Whatever your lifestyle, the Defender family has a model to fit. There's the two door Defender 90 for a smaller crew or the Defender 130 which seats up to eight. Explore the full Defender lineup at land roverusa.com.

[Producer]

Support for this show comes from the ACLU. The ACLU knows exactly what threats a second Donald Trump term presents and they are ready with a battle tested playbook. The ACLU took legal action against the first Trump administration 434 times and they will do it again to protect immigrants rights, defend reproductive freedom, safeguard free speech and fight for all of our fundamental rights and freedoms. Join the ACLU today to help stop the Extreme Project 2025 agenda. Learn more At ACLU.

[David Kessler]

We fuss over.

[Esther Perel]

Every single detail of the show. We sort through thousands of applicants each year to pick the stories that we share with you and the conversations that I have with couples start off as three hour sessions and then we thoughtfully edit them to one hour and then go back and listen to them at the notes and sometimes even a critique of the session. It's kind of what is in my head as I listen to the session that I didn't say. In the session we create original music and sound design to bring the sessions to life. Where Should We Begin? Involves a whole team who have been there since the beginning with me to bring my office to you. It's about eight years that we are telling the stories of raw, intimate encounter between people that you are invited to listen in like a fly on the wall. It's an expensive and quite time consuming effort to create where should we begin and which which we gladly undertake because you tell us time and again how valuable these conversations are to you, how they accompany you in critical moments of your life, how you see yourselves even in stories that have nothing to do with yours and how it has helped you. And that is probably the most affirming thing people can come and tell me. So now we need to ask you for more and for your help and you can do your part not only by listening, but by joining my office hours subscription on Apple Podcasts. A subscription to Where Should We Begin? Gives you an ad free version of these sessions and all the Esther callings and more importantly, a way to Continue the conversations with me on all the topics that come up in these sessions, from sexlessness to work conflicts, to infidelity to secrets to betrayals, all sorts of relational betrayals to ending relationships. And we offer follow ups with the couples because people always ask me, you know, do you see them again? Do you hear from them? Do you know where this session landed? So I go back to the couples and I ask them for a follow up, which they share with us and which I then share with you. And just like our relationships, what you say isn't as important as what you do. So I've heard you say how much you enjoy the program, how much it adds to your understanding of your own relationships. But now it's time for me to do an offer and an ask, which means click on the subscribe button to the where should we begin? Show page. I'd love to see you in Esther's office hours.

[David Kessler]

Do you want the ritual about your sister to be you, about you with her and a few of the people who knew her, or would you actually like. I want to bring together other people who have experienced loss.

[Caller]

I think the circle of people that knew her. Okay, There's a lot of them.

[David Kessler]

Okay. And what has stopped you from doing it?

[Caller]

If anything, contempt and rage at them. Some of them.

[Esther Perel]

You say this with a smile.

[Caller]

It's embarrassing. But there have been certain people that have been great and other people that I know would want to be included. And I don't know why. It's like I'm a predator that's, like, picked them because I, you know, I feel offended at things that they've said or that they've dealt with this differently. So I could invite everyone but them.

[David Kessler]

So the part of you that has experienced this. Peaks of contempt. Give me one.

[Caller]

Someone right after she died, telling me that she knew that my sister was in the arms of Jesus. Just. I don't know, it hit something in me and felt like I just wish she hadn't said anything.

[David Kessler]

What did it mean for you? This.

[Caller]

It meant for me that somehow it's good that people are with Jesus instead of with their families and their young children, people that depend on them. And I know she didn't mean like this, but it suggests that somehow this was determined.

[David Kessler]

Meant to be.

[Caller]

Yeah, determined. This was part of the plan. And that's probably not what this person meant, but it just bristled me. I want to be someone who can just understand that people say things like that and they still should be able to be afforded, like, their own space.

[David Kessler]

Maybe Maybe you will with time, but not yet. Or not when this was said because this. The part of you that responded, that rage part, that part that says, how dare you make this into something that was almost a good thing to happen. No. At the beginning, you don't accept. So you don't accept. And the anger part and the contempt, they all come together to basically say, do not try to make this into something that had a meaning or a purpose. Makes sense. At some point, maybe later, somebody says something and you say, that's their view. That's how they go through it. But at first, it is a combination of emotions that knock at each other. It's a combustion. It's confusing. It's not really confusing, but it feels confusing because it's intense. Because it's a bunch of stuff coming from left field that you never knew existed inside of you. Like when we love.

[Caller]

Like, you do things. Yeah. You do things that are not logical.

[David Kessler]

Yep. And when we face sudden loss, it's similar. Things can happen to us. So I see this as developmental. I see this as part of the arc of the experience. I don't see this as this is it. You're not today where you were six months ago. You won't be in the same place six months from now. But you do want to create the ritual that you didn't have it in you at the time to participate in. And maybe you'll have one every year on her birthday, and you'll let a dove go out. Or you'll do something that symbolizes all these things that don't have to be said in words. It can have music. It can have dance. It can have drums. It can have people stand up in a circle when they have something to say and they're moved and called to say something and then sit back. And every time you see her three girls, you will, you know, you will see her in part, not only, but you'll see her. And you are one of the main people through whom they will get to know her. Is she talked about? Is she spoken about? Between mom and your brothers and you?

[Caller]

Not as much as I want. I think I'm usually one to bring her up. I brought her up recently at this social event, and I'm. I'm always unsure what my family thinks, but I think the worst thing is just to not even mention her. Pretend like she never existed. I don't think they think that. But there's kind of an awkwardness when you're in settings or when people ask how many people are in your family. Or that's a chance to bring her up. So I usually. Yeah, so this time I said, we have a baby sister who's in heaven. And then I was too nervous to look at my family.

[David Kessler]

When you come together for the holidays this year, how long will it have been?

[Caller]

A year and a half since she died.

[David Kessler]

Okay. We all have experienced her loss in our own way, like our own fingertips. But we can all be witnesses for each other in how we each are living with this loss. Shall we take a moment and just kind of check in with each other? A pulse check, something? Where are you at with the big changes that we have just faced in our family? I know that we are not typically a family that speaks about these things, but I also think that we have not typically experienced any of these things. And therefore, we need to breathe together, so to speak, to breed her presence, her absence, as well as that and acknowledge it and celebrate them and mention them and have them be absent. Present, present absence.

[Caller]

Last Thanksgiving, her husband would talk about her. And even though they were maybe stories that didn't highlight her strengths, it just felt good. We haven't forgotten her. Yeah. And then we have.

[David Kessler]

Your family doesn't have to live like you. They don't have to feel the same as you do. There needs to be room for each person. Those who want to speak, those who don't, those who want to cry, those who don't, those who cry with others, those who cry alone.

[Caller]

We're all going to be different.

[David Kessler]

Each one highlighting different ways to experience and express grief. The most common one is those who say, let's remember. And those who say, we don't have to bring it up each time. Those who say, let's move on. And those who say, how can you? And they seem to each say, cancel each other out, when, in fact, both of these exist inside each of us. But in a family, Sometimes instead of holding them inside of us and holding those tensions and those polarities, they get outsourced onto other people.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

So one person, one brother becomes the one who says, oh, come on, you know, let's only talk about the children, the little ones, the future. And the other one says, but what about the past? But in fact, they absolutely need each other. They are part of the holistic experience. Holding on, letting go, remembering, forgetting the past, the future, the joy of her life, the sadness of her death, her strength, her illness. If you fight your brothers, you do to them what you don't like people doing to you. Because people become judgmental over how the other person is dealing with it rather than, hey, we each have a different way. We are different people. We're holding on. Our grief is like our fingertips or fingerprints. Sorry. And I love that image because the fingerprints are as personal and unique to you. So tell me about your fingerprints. I'll tell you about mine.

[Caller]

And then just listening.

[David Kessler]

Yeah, make room. It's the collective of each person's individual way that actually begins to resemble the multiple parts of this experience. No one has to take care of all the pieces. One person makes sure to bring it up at the table and the other one makes sure that we don't spend the whole evening about it. And instead of getting annoyed with the one who changed topic, it actually is good because it says we include. But we also grow loss. You know, we tend to often talk about the trauma of the loss and we don't always highlight that there is much more post traumatic growth than there is actually post traumatic stress. In many instances, this being maybe one of them.

[Caller]

So when I find myself being like, when I look back since she's died, I think my level of critique of certain people or certain things is just like 10 out of 10. And I hate. Well, in the moment it feels good, but I hate it. And so I don't understand that. It's because I'm critiquing myself, but I'm pinning it on other people.

[David Kessler]

They are often expressing the parts of this that I do not express. Okay. And that is not. That is quite good because it's the collective of all the pieces that creates the universal human experience around grief. Who knows what your hole and your loss and your gap and your emptiness. But we all hover around the same area. We know. I know that you know that I know that you know, we don't have to compare, compete who's the greater victim, who suffered more, all of that. And so in the family, people will express different parts of the experience. It's the role distribution around it. This happens along around many things in a family, but in fact, they all belong together. If you didn't have one brother who said, can we talk about something else? You would have to deal with the part inside of you that has to begin to think, when is it okay to talk about something else or even necessary? Because the complexity of these experiences is that they hold contradictions and multitudes. Shall we stop here?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

Does that feel like a good place?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[David Kessler]

Okay. I wish you special holidays.

[Caller]

Thank you.

[David Kessler]

And I think you're going into the holidays with this. Hopefully with this new frame in mind.

[Caller]

Yeah. Okay.

[Esther Perel]

All right.

[Caller]

Thank you so much.

[Esther Perel]

You're welcome. Bye bye.

[Caller]

Have a good day. Bye.

[Producer]

This was an Esther calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producersterparel.com where should we Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhey, Kristen Muller and Julia Natt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jessie Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

[Sponsor]

Support for the show comes from Ocean Spray. Friendsgiving is all about good people, good vibes and good food. Enjoy some easygoing company and some easy appetizers and refreshments with that delectable cranberry flavor that just hits different this time of year. You can try a cranberry cream cheese dip, turkey and cranberry sliders, or even cranberry glazed wings and and you can round out your meal with an Ocean Spray Juice spiced mocktail. Head to your local store to buy your Ocean Spray cranberry products for the best friendsgiving.

[Caller]

You've probably sent hundreds of cards in your life. Birthdays, anniversaries, holidays. But unfortunately most of those tend to end up in boxes, closets, or worse, the garbage. Not with Moonpig. Moonpig is here to level up your card game and add that personal touch. With Moonpig, you can upload photos directly from your phone, browse message inspirations, set reminders, and even add your own handwriting for that extra little touch. They'll even mail the cards for you. No stamps or post offices required, either on the go or from your sofa. Easy peasy. Everyone deserves a Moonpig card. Try your first card free with code [e-mail].