Esther Calling - Never Been In a Long Term Relationship, Scared I Don't Know How To Do This

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Esther Calling - Never Been In a Long Term Relationship, Scared I Don't Know How To Do This"

Episode Information

• Title: Esther Calling - Never Been In a Long Term Relationship, Scared I Don't Know How To Do This
• Host: Esther Perel, Esther Perel Global Media
• Release Date: June 30, 2025
• Description: In this episode, Esther Perel engages in a deep, transformative conversation with Alex, a 42-year-old man navigating his first serious romantic relationship. Despite a loving and communicative partnership, Alex grapples with intense panic and fear stemming from his past experiences and cultural upbringing.

---

1. Introduction to Alex’s Situation

[00:00 - 02:34]
Alex initiates the conversation by sharing his predicament:

"I am 42 years old and I've never really been in a real romantic relationship. About one and a half month ago I met this very nice guy who was in a polyamorous relationship and we have started dating and now we are in a relationship as well. Everything is very nice. We have very nice communication. I feel very safe with him. He's lovely, we have fun. And yet I feel this constant panic."
— Alex, [00:00]

Alex expresses confusion over his persistent panic, which contradicts the positive aspects of his new relationship. He fears that this anxiety might sabotage his budding romance.

---

2. Exploring the Root Causes

[03:26 - 10:40]
Esther prompts Alex to delve deeper into his relationship history and underlying issues:

"The panic is not two days old."
— Alex, [04:26]

Alex reveals a long-standing fear of romantic relationships, rooted in his upbringing where saying "no" was difficult due to cultural expectations of kindness and altruisms. This environment fostered a belief that prioritizing others' needs over his own was essential for maintaining relationships.

He shares traumatic experiences from his youth, including bullying and feeling isolated:

"I was being bullied terribly at school. I was smarter. I was in the wrong educational track."
— Alex, [15:40]

These experiences cultivated a deep-seated fear of intimacy and rejection, leading him to believe that relationships are burdensome and likely to fail.

---

3. Therapeutic Intervention: The Two-Chair Technique

[27:56 - 44:30]
Esther employs the two-chair technique to help Alex navigate his internal conflicts. This method involves dialoguing between different parts of oneself to understand and reconcile opposing emotions.

Alex personifies his fears as "him," representing the part that urges him to flee from relationships:

"That's gonna be tough."
— Alex, [46:29]

Through this exercise, Alex confronts his inner critic, which consistently undermines his efforts to engage in meaningful connections. Esther encourages him to acknowledge and integrate these conflicting parts rather than allowing them to dominate his behavior.

---

4. Insights and Revelations

[47:00 - 41:08]
The session uncovers several key insights:

• Acceptance of Panic: Alex realizes that his panic is a manifestation of his deep care and investment in the relationship.

"I think one is it's okay to panic because it's a sign of how much you care about the relationship."
— Alex, [41:31]

• Balancing Excitement and Insecurity: Esther highlights that emotions like excitement and insecurity often coexist, suggesting that embracing both can lead to healthier relationships.

"Maybe just simply excitement and insecurity often live side by side."
— Esther Perel, [41:51]

• Rewriting Internal Narratives: By acknowledging and addressing his fears, Alex begins to reshape his internal narrative from one of avoidance to one of conscious engagement and risk-taking.

---

5. Moving Forward: Strategies for Healthy Relationships

[41:06 - 47:15]
Esther and Alex discuss practical strategies to manage his fears:

• Name and Acknowledge Fears: Identifying his fears as distinct parts within him allows Alex to address them without judgment.

"The stage is big enough for a cast of characters."
— Esther Perel, [44:30]

• Open Communication: Encouraging Alex to communicate his insecurities openly with his partner to strengthen their bond.

"These become conversations that we have together, rather than secret thoughts that express my insecurities."
— Esther Perel, [38:28]

• Gradual Exposure: Taking small steps to engage in the relationship despite fears, thereby building confidence and reducing anxiety over time.

---

6. Conclusion and Takeaways

[47:00 - End]
As the session concludes, Alex acknowledges the complexity of his emotions and the importance of ongoing self-work:

"It's not gonna work out. It's not worth it. Keep looking. Run, run, run. Just go."
— Alex, [30:35]

However, under Esther's guidance, he begins to see the value in facing his fears rather than succumbing to them. The key takeaway emphasizes the importance of embracing vulnerability and fostering open communication to cultivate a fulfilling romantic relationship.

Key Nuggets:

• Panic as Care: Feeling anxious in a relationship can indicate a high level of care and investment.
• Dual Emotions: Excitement and insecurity can coexist, and acknowledging both can lead to healthier connections.
• Internal Dialogue: Naming and addressing internal fears facilitates personal growth and relationship stability.

---

Final Thoughts
This episode provides profound insights into how past traumas and cultural conditioning can impact present relationships. Through Esther Perel's expert guidance, Alex begins to navigate his fears, offering listeners valuable lessons on vulnerability, communication, and the courage to embrace love despite inherent anxieties.

Transcript

[Alex]

Hi esther. I am 42 years old and I've never really been in a real romantic relationship. About one and a half month ago I met this very nice guy who was in a polyamorous relationship and we have started dating and now we are in a relationship as well. Everything is very nice. We have very nice communication. I feel very safe with him. He's lovely, we have fun. And yet I feel this constant panic. There's this constant panic inside of me and I don't understand why. Like when he sends a text saying, can I ask you something? I feel scared that this will be bad news. I feel like, oh, now something bad is going to happen. It never does. It's always a nice conversation. Whenever I have a question I can ask him and he always replies in a nice way. So I have no clue what is going on. But I do feel that this panic is getting in the way of exploring this relationship and that it might sabotage it, which I don't want. So I hope you can help me figure out what is going on. Thank you.

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[Esther Perel]

You have the mic.

[Alex]

Yeah. With this I've been struggling. Like the relationship is very nice. I just keep freaking out.

[Esther Perel]

Do you want to start with the part that says this is beautiful? I want to savor this. This feels so special. I've been wanting this for so long. Do you want to start with the part that says don't get carried away. This won't last. This can disappear any moment. There's a reason you're still single at 42 and your panic is protecting you and many other things that I haven't mentioned. Which part did we want to start with?

[Alex]

I think the second part is. Is what is getting to me? Like, the.

[Esther Perel]

But it's getting to you because you're experiencing the first.

[Alex]

Yeah. I had tried to rephrase my question this afternoon, and I thought maybe my question is how to. How to deal with a romantic relationship. Like, I'm not used to that. How do. How does one do that?

[Esther Perel]

So I just met you literally a minute and a half ago. So tell me a little bit more. Just give me a little bit of context about your relationship story and the parts of the story that you would want to hold on to and harness and the parts of your story that you would like to change or leave behind.

[Alex]

And you mean in this relationship or previous relationships or probably it starts before this one. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

The panic is not two days old.

[Alex]

Definitely not. No. I've always wanted to find romantic love and to just, you know, have someone you can share something with, to be with, and it never really worked out. Like, I think I was scared a lot, like, of people getting too close, of people expecting things and. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

No, no, there's no. Yeah. Those two lines are like four chapters of a book. So tell me a tiny bit more. So I have some sense of what you're saying, the fear of them coming too close. And that represents an entire realm of experience, a sense of coming with expectations. That's cod language that you understand, and you fill in all the blanks. But I wouldn't pretend to be able to imagine that I know what you're talking about. I can guess, but that won't do it.

[Alex]

No. I think I've grown up with the idea or with the family culture in which we learned if someone asks you something, then you do it. Right? You need to be helpful. You need to be nice to people. So if someone asks you something, you do it. You don't say no to people, because.

[Esther Perel]

What is the value underneath? Kindness, generosity, hospitality, altruism, Matter. Because.

[Alex]

Because otherwise they might not like you, talk bad about you. And that is, you know, you grew up in a small place. That's not a good thing. I mean, I think my. We moved to another side of the country, and I think that was mostly because I remember my mother saying, people always come by here. People are always just walking in the door, just walking in. And now that I'm older, I'm thinking, well, you could just say, like, this is not the right time. Could you come back later? Or, you know, I think that's a thing that I never learned as well. Like to say, okay, until here and no further, or I had Panic attacks for a long time. And that all stopped when my psychologist at the time said, well, if you don't want to go to the party, then don't go to the party. And that for me was like, that errored in my head for minutes because I was like, yeah, I understand what you say, but it doesn't make sense. You don't do that. You don't say no.

[Esther Perel]

And do you remember the first time you didn't go?

[Alex]

Yeah, I remember saying to a friend, I'm fine with going out tonight with you, but I do want to make an agreement that I will go home when I want. And of course, she had to laugh and said, like, yeah, sure, that's fine. But that was a big thing.

[Esther Perel]

So the part of my relationship culture that I want to hold on to, or my relationship story that I want to hold on to or value is. And the part of my relationship story that I would like to let go of, what would you say?

[Alex]

I find it hard to think what I would like to hold on to. I think being there for people. I know my family, we don't have a very close relationship, but if there's anything wrong, they'll be there. It's what we do. And I think that's. That's what I want to keep.

[Esther Perel]

It's what we do. Regardless of how I feel about you, it's the right thing to do.

[Alex]

Yeah, definitely. And I think the part I want to let go is the.

[Esther Perel]

What is the cultural and religious background of the family, by the way, We're.

[Alex]

Dutch, used to be Catholic, but not very religious. So the more freer part of Catholicism. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

How many children?

[Alex]

4.

[Esther Perel]

Response to homosexuality?

[Alex]

Fine. I mean, I came out late. We didn't have a very good relationship when I was younger, but I always knew they were going to be fine. Like, we had more gay people in the family. They came over a lot, and I always learned this was okay.

[Esther Perel]

And the feeling that developed under the value of, you always say yes. When people ask you something, you always put their needs ahead of yours, convey to you a sense that in order to have relationships, you have to be all pleasing of others. And it's about their needs and their expectations.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Or they go away and then you don't have relationships. Was it a message of conditional love, so to speak? You either please and do what they want or they won't hang around.

[Alex]

I think it was more not knowing how to ask for things, like not knowing how to ask for help or like, you know, you do things by yourself. If people Ask. You're nice, but you don't set boundaries for yourself. You don't ask for things for yourself. You don't, because it's not about you.

[Esther Perel]

So relationships are. Fill in the blank if they're not about you.

[Alex]

A burden. I think if I look at my parents, they find it hard to say, but I think they stay together for the kids. I did not see that loving relationship.

[Esther Perel]

So relationships are a burden. It's all about duty, obligation, doing things to prevent gossip, pleasing others, attending to their needs, not having any room for one's own. Here is this thing that you absolutely long for and hope for your entire life, but at the same time, the thing that you most want to avoid. Because who would want that?

[Alex]

Yeah. Yes. And I'm a contradiction. Huge contradiction. Yeah. Also the fear that I might disappear in it. Like, where am I in this?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. Like, who disappeared in your house, by the way? One of them. Both of them.

[Alex]

Both.

[Esther Perel]

Each of you?

[Alex]

Yeah. I think a couple of us in the family, like my mother, definitely my father, in a way.

[Esther Perel]

She disappeared. How?

[Alex]

She got very bad cancer when I was about 13.

[Esther Perel]

Stay there for a moment because you're. You're right there and you're seeing it.

[Alex]

I had. I had never really. I knew it, but I had never really realized it until like a month ago that the doctor actually said to her, like, well, we think you have a couple of months to live. She survived, but at that time, it just looked like it was over.

[Esther Perel]

That must have been so scary.

[Alex]

It was.

[Esther Perel]

And you were very close to your mummy.

[Alex]

I was.

[Esther Perel]

And what happened? I was.

[Alex]

I'm no longer not that close. No. We grew apart. I mean, we. We call, we have conversations, but it's not. It's not like it was. It was like the time. It was a very tough time. Nobody knew what to do. I mean, we were running a house. My father was, I think, the most scared of us all. Going up and down to the hospital, having a job. We lived on a farm that needed to be taken care of. My mother used to do that, and then he needed to do that apart from his other job. And then, you know. Yeah. So we were doing the best we could, but we didn't have the emotional skills to talk or to deal with that. I think my younger brother was the only one who at one point said that he was scared. I don't remember talking with the others about that.

[Esther Perel]

So we all went into survival mode and we each learned to deal with our fear and our sense of dread and our anticipated loss and our Anticipatory grief. Each of us by ourselves, alone, in silence. But did we feel alone or did we feel united and solidarious even though we didn't talk?

[Alex]

I felt alone. Okay. I don't know about the others.

[Esther Perel]

And I learned that the more close and attached you are to someone, the bigger the fall if you lose them.

[Alex]

Maybe.

[Esther Perel]

Like when you get a question from your boyfriend and you have that irrational panic.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

That by definition it must be something bad.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Is it the same physical feeling that you had back then?

[Alex]

I can't remember, actually. Also because we don't talk a lot at all at home about emotions. Never did. So we talked a lot, but not about feelings. A lot of this stuff was also not discussed. I think we didn't get a lot of the information. We knew what was going on, but I don't know how much we knew. But it wasn't positive, definitely.

[Esther Perel]

But physically in your body, did you expect that every time somebody would then say something it wouldn't be necessarily good news?

[Alex]

No, I don't think. I don't feel that was it at least I don't remember that physical sensation. I mean, there was a lot going on. I was being bullied terribly at school.

[Esther Perel]

For.

[Alex]

Being smarter. I was in the wrong educational track. And by the time people discovered that, I was already so scared that I didn't want to switch anymore. So I was picked on, bullied for like two, three years. That physical sensation definitely is this, that I remember. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You just saw that too. How old?

[Alex]

I think it started when I was 12. And then growing up gay in quite a religious area. It was not a place to come out or to find other people who had the same experience.

[Esther Perel]

Did you have friends?

[Alex]

I had some, but I tried very hard. But I think it was more inconvenience thing. I don't think we really connected. Like we lived close together. So your friends, you cycled to school together, your friends. But also when I was going to the secondary school, I was the only one from primary school who was put in a different group. So I was separated already there. So there I was alone.

[Esther Perel]

And you couldn't bring any of that home or you did. There was enough happening at home that.

[Alex]

You thought now this was before the things at home started happening. But already I didn't. I was too ashamed to tell about the bullying.

[Esther Perel]

Because you made it about you.

[Alex]

Definitely. I think that's the constant thing under the relationship now as well, that I constantly feel like I'm not enough, I'm too much, I'm taking off too much space. I'm being too much. It's this constant I'm too much and I'm not enough.

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[Esther Perel]

So the man that looks at that boy, that thinks, what's wrong with me? That they pick on me? Must be me. It's okay. He usually doesn't get to take up the space.

[Alex]

No.

[Esther Perel]

As he just did now.

[Alex]

No, he doesn't.

[Esther Perel]

Because what does he do?

[Alex]

Usually hide and run. Make sure he's not being seen.

[Esther Perel]

I'm right here. I'm just meeting him.

[Alex]

What do you think?

[Esther Perel]

He was very hurt. He had to deal with a lot of meanness and cruelty. I've never known a person particularly. I don't know if that's true, but I was going to say particularly men. Boys who were bullied and who don't live with it inside of them in their adult life. It just seemed to be one of the most imprinting experiences we have. And the fact that you can't talk about it with anybody because you have to pretend that none of this bothers you. And the fact that it then becomes the thing that follows you for so long and you say, nobody's gonna have that power over me. I'm gonna stay away from anybody so that nobody can ever touch me like that again.

[Alex]

Definitely.

[Esther Perel]

Physical bullying or mental or all of the above.

[Alex]

Mostly mental. Like. Yeah, it never got very physical.

[Esther Perel]

But I mean, shaming you of the wazoo.

[Alex]

Yeah, right. Yeah. Making fun, Asking questions like, make me feel uncomfortable all the time. Like being very sneaky about it. Just.

[Esther Perel]

What kind of questions would the boys ask you?

[Alex]

It was a girl, actually. Mostly a girl. So it's one person it started with. Yeah, it was one person. Who was mostly doing it. Yeah, I think the others got pulled into it and just went along. But as soon as she wasn't in the group anymore, things got better. Never good, but better. Not as bad as it was with her. I mean, obviously there were the questions, like, are you gay? Lots of sexual innuendo questions. Or puberty insecurity questions about your body or things you like. Or like a very mean one was like, look at me. And then I would look at her and then she would go like, look away, look at me, look away, look at me, look away. So degrading, so mean. Because I didn't know what to do. It felt like no one, no one saw it. And when people saw people didn't do anything. Worst thing is, there was one teacher and he. He wasn't a very good teacher, but he was the only one who said, I will not accept this in class. Still couldn't handle the situation, but he was the only one ever in class who said something about it.

[Esther Perel]

And the connection I was making was when you described your boyfriend sending you a message and saying, can I ask you a question?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And that you go into panic. And I just wondered, is there a resonance there between her asking you questions and you're anticipating a question as being degrading, undermining, ridiculing.

[Alex]

I think all the questions that he asked me, or like when he says, can I ask you a question? It just always feels like, oh, now he's just going to say, I'm leaving. Yeah. Like, can I ask you a question? Like the hang yourself method. Right. Like, can I ask you a question? How do you think things are going? I think they're not going. Great. Bye. And like, you didn't know this was coming. You didn't see it coming, but it's not going right.

[Esther Perel]

But tell me something. In the decades that you avoided relationships, romantic relationships, did you use that tactic? Can I ask you a question? How are things going in your mind?

[Alex]

I must have done. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You seem to know the script so well.

[Alex]

Yeah. At the times when I didn't have the skills to just say things or when I was still in the script of, you know, it's better to do it indirectly because otherwise people feel hurt. Yeah. I would probably do that. Or just disappear. Avoid contact. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So you know those response as well. And now you find yourself in a relationship with someone you like a lot, and every protective part of you is trying to tell you, don't do it. It's not worth it. You're going to be disappointed. Nobody can meet your needs. You can't meet anybody else's needs. Relationships are a burden. And that's one set of messages. But you're in conversation with them, and so what's the conversation like?

[Alex]

Chaos.

[Esther Perel]

If you had a different conversation with them that says, I'm willing to take the risk.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Because in effect, all of these voices that tell you, stay away, stop, don't bother. They pretend to make your life safer, but in effect, they just make your life more lonely. They don't really protect you, even though they present themselves like the security squad.

[Alex]

Funny thing is, when friends are dating and they're, like, scared and trying to run away, there's actually only two questions that are important. Like, do you like the other person? Do you want to see the other person again? I'm completely failing to apply that to myself.

[Esther Perel]

Can you bring that chair that is behind you and put it next to this chair?

[Alex]

Yep.

[Esther Perel]

All right. Now that chair will represent all the pools that say, nah, don't bother. Keep going. Fill it up. You know your inner voices much better than me.

[Alex]

Yeah. It's not gonna work out. It's not worth it. Keep looking. Run, run, run. Just go.

[Esther Perel]

All right, now go sit in that chair and tell him. He's right here.

[Alex]

Tell him what?

[Esther Perel]

Run. Get the hell out. Why bother? It's not worth it.

[Alex]

That feels so weird.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. To what? To take the inner.

[Alex]

It doesn't make sense. Like, I mean, I get your question, but it doesn't make. Doesn't make sense because it's like, it's stupid. Why are you being so stupid about it?

[Esther Perel]

Meaning? Why don't you trust what you're experiencing?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You know, he likes you. You know you like him.

[Alex]

I do. So just go with that and you'll be fine. You'll be fine.

[Esther Perel]

Really?

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

All right. So now go back to the other side. Are you so quickly convinced?

[Alex]

No.

[Esther Perel]

Ah. Okay. Give him your pushback.

[Alex]

It has never worked out. I'm 42. It has never worked out. So why would this time work? Given your past experiences, it's more likely that it isn't gonna work. So why try? Takes a lot of energy. It's gonna hurt a lot if it doesn't work. Because you like him a lot. Because you have to take a risk. That's life. You can't. You can't live life without taking the risk. And it is fine because you will be alright. You have your friends and people around you who are there, who are stable, who will not let you go. So you will survive this.

[Esther Perel]

Are there Other histories of romantic hurt that come up when you tell him it that you're ready to take risks, that you're ready to open yourself up. That if it hurts, it hurts. But it's a part of life. It's not a reason not to pursue love.

[Alex]

No, I don't think it doesn't feel like it is any of the past relationships that that is this. I think that your survive, your survival emotion. It's more like I have struggled with suicidal thoughts in the past. I'm not going there anymore. That's been a decision and I haven't felt like that in years. Don't feel like that now. But it is the fear of what if I don't survive this? Together with I grew up in the 80s and 90s. The first thing I saw about gay people is that you die from hiv. Hates. Yeah, it was a couple of years ago when I thought I survived. I was too young to catch anything, but this was the image that was unprinted on me. On television, in the news, everywhere. You're gay. If you're gay, you're going to die and it's your own fault.

[Esther Perel]

And the only way you survive is by staying away from anyone you would ever want to connect with in any one way or another.

[Alex]

Definitely. Because intimacy, sex is dangerous, right?

[Esther Perel]

Why a frightening message. How is the sexual connection between you two good? I didn't ask you to give me a.

[Alex]

I mean it's. No, I feel very safy. I can totally relax. Like the physical connection is he can touch me in places that other people, when they would touch me would make me feel icky. Yeah. And with him I'm just. I feel the same, but I enjoy it. Like the physical sensation is the same, but I. I can let go of it. I relax, I enjoy. I tense up in the right way. Yeah. He's a very good cuddler.

[Esther Perel]

And you?

[Alex]

I love cuddling. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

And does he come with some fears of his own? Oh, definitely, because you shouldn't take up all the fear credit.

[Alex]

No, no, no, no. We talk about that. Yeah. No, and that's why I wanted to talk to you, because it became so clear to me that this is not about the relationship.

[Esther Perel]

Right.

[Alex]

This is not about what he and I have.

[Esther Perel]

No, this is about what he and I have. But it feels so special and so fragile and so doomed by culture and history that I would love to surrender to it. I would love to go ahead and celebrate it and scream it on the roofs. But what if?

[Alex]

Yeah, what if? And how. How does one do that? How does one do a romantic relationship? You know, like I was thinking, okay, so what if we don't have anything to say anymore? And then of course, ignore that because we'll have stuff to say, but like those stupid things like, okay, so what if I'm not doing enough? Or what if it's.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, you know, these conversations, I imagine them on the pillow and sometimes on the walk or on the bench, are part of what strengthens the romantic bond.

[Alex]

Yeah, it does.

[Esther Perel]

The more I care about you, the more I am afraid that I may not be enough for you. And that is a statement that is intrinsic to romantic love. It doesn't have to necessarily connect itself to childhood, to trauma, to bullying, to anything. Just simply. I want to continue to feel as special as I do, but what if I don't? What if one day we stop being attracted to each other? What if one day we have nothing to say to each other? And what makes the romantic bond is that these become conversations that we have together, rather than secret thoughts that express my insecurities. Yeah, it's the actual display of these thoughts that are more tender, more vulnerable, more insecure, but that are insecurity produced by the intensity of the feelings and the Actual conversation and sharing about it, head to head, face to face, eye to eye is what deepens the romantic connection. How old is he?

[Alex]

40.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, okay.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, I'm just saying you both have history and experiences and avoidances.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. We're equal is what I'm saying.

[Alex]

Yeah. It's one of the things I like about this relationship, that it does feel fairly equal.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. And you both are saying, this is scary.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

But I want it.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And the more I want it and the more scared I am.

[Alex]

For me, definitely. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. And for him.

[Alex]

I've not asked that question.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. The previous things like.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Because I tie the level of my fear with the level of my intention, my desire, my attraction and my love. And you can switch the order.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So what was your question?

[Alex]

I think my first question was, what causes the panic? And then later I thought like, why? Why can't I just enjoy this? Why can't I just be in the moment and enjoy this relationship instead of constantly being in my head and panicking about it?

[Esther Perel]

And do we have any nuggets?

[Alex]

I think one is it's okay to panic because it's a sign of how much you care about the relationship or how deep you're going into it. It's good to communicate about it.

[Esther Perel]

Maybe we shouldn't call it panic. No, because you call it panic and then you think it's going to be a sabotage and you have a whole narrative about the panic. Maybe just simply excitement and insecurity often live side by side.

[Alex]

Yeah. But last week to the point where I really wanted to run.

[Esther Perel]

And so when the part of you that says why bother? It's run too scary, then you bring in the chair and you just ground that one. You have a name for it?

[Alex]

No. Him.

[Esther Perel]

Him. The runner. Him. What?

[Alex]

Yes, him. Scaredy cat.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. But not with contempt. Not with contempt. He may be a scary cat. He may be, you know.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

A lot of different things. But if you go at him with contempt and self loathing, which I think is what you have done, he becomes more tenacious. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Laugh at me. We love best with who we love last.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So he demands recognition, he demands kindness, he demands understanding. He demands compassion. He has a reason to exist. He didn't come out of nowhere. But to have the two chairs helps you. Not just to see me, but more a side of me, a voice in me, a part of me. But there's another voice. There are other parts. There are other facets and they are all in conversation with each other rather Than I become the sum total of this side of me, and then I become the sum total of that side of me. And each one is trying to push the other one down.

[Alex]

So instead of pushing each other down.

[Esther Perel]

The stage is big enough for a cast of characters. One says, go for it. The other one says, don't bother. The other one says, but I want to. The other one says, yes, but look what that does to people. The other one says, talk to him. The other one says, no, keep it inside. There's a lot of different, you know, and part of the romantic stage, if you want, is that we actually get to tell somebody. Do you want to really meet the cast of characters that is behind the curtain? All these parts of me, all these characters, each one of them pulling in another direction. Sometimes they come together for a bit. What's your theater like? Who's in your dramatic plot for love? Adult, gay, romantic, passionate, sexual, sensual. All of that. They get normalized rather than seen as this tyrannical, destructive sabotage.

[Alex]

Yeah, that is what I'm doing.

[Esther Perel]

Hi. You haven't heard from you in a while. What do you come to tell me today? Listen to them, welcome them, offer them tea, and then tell them we'd love to see you again, but not today.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And when they bring tears to you like today, just give it some space without invalidating it, dismissing it, criticizing it, like, what the are you doing?

[Alex]

That's gonna be tough.

[Esther Perel]

I don't imagine you're gonna do all of this just like that on the spot, but you're gonna try this. A little of this and a little of that.

[Alex]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

None of this is a pass fail. Okay? This is about changing the dial tone, upping some and lowering others. Okay.

[Alex]

Yes. Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

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This was an Esther calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estherre that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message. And Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparelle.com where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julia Nat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jessie Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.