Esther Calling - No Longer Daddy's Little Girl

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Esther Calling - No Longer Daddy's Little Girl"

Introduction

In this emotionally charged episode of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel, titled "Esther Calling - No Longer Daddy's Little Girl," listener Marie shares her deeply personal struggle with her estranged father. Released on March 3, 2025, the episode delves into themes of familial bonds, emotional abandonment, and the arduous journey of grieving a parent who remains physically present but emotionally distant.

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Background

Marie begins by outlining the foundational issues that have led to her current predicament. Her parents divorced when she was seven years old, resulting in minimal involvement from her father. Despite the absence, Marie maintained a semblance of a relationship, believing her father was healthy until she recognized issues that contributed to their strained bond.

"My dad was never there for us... He was healthy, which I realized is not anymore." [00:39]

Marie pursued vet school, during which her father supported her financially by splitting her tuition costs equally between himself, her mother, and herself. However, when Marie decided to take out a loan to cover additional expenses and living costs without informing her father, tensions escalated.

"I decided to take a loan to do clinical relationship to... enjoy life as well. That was not the most responsible decision that I took." [05:56]

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Conflict and Estrangement

The crux of Marie's estrangement lies in her decision to independently secure a loan, which her father perceived as a betrayal. Upon discovering the loan, her father reacted vehemently, severing ties and expressing feelings of being used and unappreciated.

"He told me that he didn't want to deal with my fucking problem anymore. And that's enough." [08:35]

Marie attempts to reconcile by maintaining a superficial relationship, discussing mundane topics to avoid deeper emotional engagement. Despite multiple efforts to rebuild their connection, including reaching out through her father's wife, her attempts were met with rejection and accusations of disrespect and dishonesty.

"He said that I was acting like a spoiled little princess. That I was not able to see the effort he put to make this money and to give it to me." [10:54]

The therapist explores whether money is the underlying issue or a manifestation of deeper emotional wounds. Marie reveals a family history marked by abrupt cutoffs, characterized by her father's black-and-white approach to relationships.

"My dad, the way it goes with him, you go to hero to zero. It's black or white." [15:55]

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Therapy Discussion

Esther Perel guides Marie through unpacking her complex emotions and the intertwined nature of her sense of autonomy and her father's approval. The session highlights Marie's internal conflict between seeking her father's validation and asserting her independence.

"I have to accept that he's not around. But the other part of the story here is this is unforeseen circumstances in which I'm going to really learn to own my independence and not to construct my independence in light of him." [41:21]

Marie grapples with the duality of desiring her father's pride while simultaneously striving to prove her capability without his endorsement. Her actions—taking the loan without his knowledge—were attempts to establish independence but inadvertently reinforced her father's feelings of betrayal.

"I stepped out of my role and I got what I deserved, so to speak." [46:08]

Esther emphasizes the importance of Marie developing her own sense of validation, separate from her father's conditional approval. This involves embracing uncertainty and trusting her decision-making processes without the crutch of seeking external affirmation.

"Real independence is... you own it. But you don't need to do it behind the back because it's yours and you." [40:34]

Marie acknowledges the difficulty of this journey but notes the positive influence of her husband, who provides a safe and unconditional support system, contrasting her father's conditional love.

"My husband is wonderful. He provided me a really safe space that even when we are fighting, I know he won't leave." [44:56]

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Insights and Conclusions

This episode underscores the profound impact of parental relationships on an individual's sense of self-worth and autonomy. Marie's story illustrates the challenges of breaking free from ingrained patterns of seeking approval and the pain of severed familial ties. Through therapy, Marie begins to recognize the necessity of self-validation and the importance of cultivating supportive relationships outside of her paternal bond.

Key takeaways include:

1. Conditional vs. Unconditional Love: Marie's father exemplifies conditional love, where approval is contingent upon compliance, leading to emotional estrangement.

2. The Journey of Grieving: Grieving a parent involves more than mourning their absence; it requires processing the emotional abandonment and redefining one's identity independent of that relationship.

3. Self-Validation: Learning to trust oneself and establish personal validation mechanisms is crucial for emotional autonomy and healthy relationships.

4. Support Systems: Building a network of supportive individuals, such as Marie's husband and sister, is vital in overcoming familial conflicts and fostering personal growth.

The episode concludes with Esther Perel highlighting Marie's progress and the ongoing nature of her healing process, emphasizing that while the path to autonomy is challenging, it is essential for personal well-being.

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Notable Quotes

• "I always wanted that when I was 4." [32:16]
• "Confidence is your ability to see yourself as flawed, as imperfect, but still hold yourself in high regard." [43:35]
• "If you need to go behind the back of the other person, it's because on some level you're trying to push them away." [40:34]

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Conclusion

"Esther Calling - No Longer Daddy's Little Girl" offers a raw and intimate exploration of maternal grief, the complexities of familial relationships, and the pursuit of personal autonomy. Through Marie's narrative, listeners gain insight into the emotional turmoil of estrangement and the transformative power of self-discovery and supportive relationships.

Transcript

[Marie]

My dad decided to cut me off his life for almost two years now, and I still deeply don't know why. I tried to communicate with him multiple times, but he really doesn't want to deal with me anymore. So I decided to start a grieving process more than a year ago now, and I found it extremely hard. How can I grieve my father that is still alive, especially with the reason it gave me to me? These reasons are unfair and doesn't justify to cut somebody out your life. My husband and I want children in the near future. I know how important grandparents are for grandchildren and how important the relationship is. And I know that my father is a good grandfather to my nephews. I don't want to deprive my future children to see my father, but I don't know how if I don't have a relationship myself with him. On the other hand, I know that I will want to protect them and I'm worried that he could cut them off his life and I don't want that. I know it's a hypothetical situation, but it still doesn't help me with my grieving process. This is advertiser content brought to you by Hanes Bali and Maidenform. Okay, we can admit it. We all have that one undergarment stashed in the back of the drawer that's just a bit past its prime. And you've probably had those ancient undies longer than you care to admit. So toss that old undergarment you'd never let anyone see and refresh your underwear drawer, whether it's the comfiest boxers or bralettes from Hanes, beautiful and supportive bras from Bali, or sleek and seamless shapewear from Maidenform. There's something for everyone for that much needed undies upgrade. Because if you wouldn't flaunt it, then it's time to refresh it.

[Esther]

Support for the show comes from the aclu. The Trump administration is pushing a dangerous and sweeping attempt to control our bodies, our families, and our lives at the same time, a Supreme Court case this term could shape the future of bodily autonomy for all. Tennessee wants to take away transgender people's autonomy over their own bodies. They think the ruling that overturned Roe versus Wade allows them to do it. This would hurt everyone's freedom to control their bodies and lives. The government has no right to deny a transgender person the health care they need, just as they have no right to tell someone if, when, or how they start a family. The ACLU told the court that everyone deserves the freedom to control their bodies, learn [e-mail] autonomy.

[Therapist]

Tell me about you in brief, you know, because I know there's a whole decades of life. But tell me something important, what is relevant for us to know that can be helpful in this moment. About your relationship with your dad, about the origin of this cut off, about how the other members of the family are implicated and dealing with it. I kind of know where it landed, but I don't really know where it took off from.

[Marie]

Okay. I think the most important thing to understand the situation for you to know is. So my parents divorced when I was 7. My dad was never there for us. And it's funny because I never heard my parents fight when I was a kid. I thought he was healthy, which I realized is not anymore. Anyway, he didn't want the causticity but because he was working all the time and I never. I was.

[Therapist]

He didn't want custody.

[Marie]

No. So but he had to have me one weekend on the other at this time my sister was not interested to see him because we were just working all the time and I wanted to do the same work than him. So to me I was, you know, have time a long time with my dad and I was doing what I was loving. So I was super happy with that. It goes on and on and it took me a while before getting vet school and those years were fine. We had good relationship when I got in and he helped me a lot. One of the things I think it's important also to know is when I was at school and I was not working. So it's actually my dad that decided to come with a concept to say look, it's your study, we want to help you, but you need to pay a part of it. And where I'm from is not as expensive as the United States. But anyway, so we decided my dad offered me to pay a third, my mom a third and me a third and it go on. And I took maybe a not wise decision but at some point I said a long time to the university was not working and I want to do more stuff and I didn't want to ask for more money because it was my own experience. So I decided to take a loan to do clinical relationship to let's be honest, enjoy life as well. That was not the most responsible decision that I took. But I always assume it.

[Therapist]

Meaning you took responsibility for it? Yes, assuming French is different in English.

[Marie]

Sorry.

[Therapist]

In French is suppose what you're saying is I. I owned my decision.

[Marie]

I own my decision. Yeah, yeah. And it's true that especially it's funny. Money always been a big taboo in the family, and I was seriously not comfortable to tell that to my dad. So every year when he was asking me, you know, how's the budget? Are you okay? And I was, yes, I'm fine. And if I need more money, I want, you know, I'll take it. So I didn't talk to him about it. My sister was aware about that. Other member of my. My mom was aware about that too.

[Therapist]

Who is the first child?

[Marie]

My sister.

[Therapist]

So you're the youngest.

[Marie]

Correct.

[Therapist]

Okay.

[Marie]

And you were the closest when I was younger, yes.

[Therapist]

Yes, but that matters. People don't often cut off people that are far away from them, you know. So you made some financial decisions on your own that he didn't know about and he thought we are close and we have made decisions together. And he had a reaction to your going off on your own and doing whatever you did financially and related to your studies without involving him?

[Marie]

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's correct.

[Therapist]

Okay. And then.

[Marie]

Well, and then, I think, you know, I'm doing the same work than both of my parents. I know that the proudness is not the same. My mom always been happy for me because she knew that it's what I wanted to do. I always feel that my dad, a part of it, was proud because I was doing what he was doing and he wanted me to take the family business. And a part of me always wanted to do it because I know how much energy and effort he put into it. But on the other hand, I was not sure I wanted to dissociate myself with my father. He has a really, really good reputation. So I wanted to be sure that if I would have been good, it's because I'm good, not because I'm his daughter, you know? So when I graduated, I decided to leave in the United States for two reasons. I was thinking, well, let's be honest, the salary is better here. So I was really naive to think that I could pay my loan in 5 years. Ish. But it's what I thought at first. And plus I wanted some experience and see what I worth it. And after the first year, which didn't go well, my dad knew about the. Somebody told him about my alarm and he just exploded. And that is eight years ago. He was extremely mad and he told me that he didn't want to deal with my fucking problem anymore. And that's enough. So.

[Therapist]

But may I ask you. He was mad that you hid taking a loan from him. He was mad. What was he mad about?

[Marie]

So for what I understood he was mad that and it's true, I have good loan. That's the thing. It was irresponsible at the time. So when he realized the amount of debt that I had is the fact I think he maybe feel used and I send you his last text he sent me. I think he felt used and not appreciative of the help he gave me. And maybe also a part that he was not aware about that. I think it's a combination of all that. Yeah.

[Therapist]

So he tried to help you and your loan made him feel that whatever he gave was not enough. I gave you money for X and you did nothing with it or I gave you money and obviously where is the breach?

[Marie]

Honestly, I'm not sure. The money he gave me, I always use it for what it was supposed to be paying my grocery, the apartment.

[Therapist]

So why does he feel used? I mean basically he feels betrayed, but I'm not. I don't understand why he feels betrayed. What did you do?

[Marie]

Well, that's the thing too is you know that it's. And it's one of the problem is those are thought but I don't even know that's why because it was on me and I took full responsibility for this loan. I mean and I'm a grew up in one way was none of his business. And I'm not saying that in a disrespectful way. It's just that was what I decided to do. I think he felt betrayed that other people knew about it and. And not him. In the last text he sent me, he said that I was acting like a spoiled little princess. That I was not able to see the effort he put to make this money and to give it to me.

[Therapist]

Can I ask you something?

[Marie]

Yes.

[Therapist]

Is there a history where money is at the center in your family history years or even generations before? Have there been other betrayals, breaches, slights that involved money?

[Marie]

I don't think so. The only thing that I can can see my dad told me after the divorce, which he told me that he had. He was. It was almost bankruptcy and he had to choose between his job and the family. And he decided to choose the job to save the work. I mean I know that when he started his business, you know, I mean it took time. He could spend a few days without having any column but we never had money issue. I know his parents that work really hard as well. So they were not rich but not poor were in the middle and for us, I mean my dad always been the financial provider and it's true that here's the thing.

[Therapist]

Money is often not just money. Money is loyalty. Money is self worth. Money is love. Money is being taken advantage of. Money is recognition or lack of recognition. Money is power. Money is fear of scarcity. Money is a lot of things emotionally. And obviously you did something that involved money. And for some reason it really pierced him wrong to the point where he rejected one of his two children. And when it goes that deep, it often is beyond logic. It's not at premier de grey first degree. You know, I borrowed, I had debt. It's my money. It wasn't really his issue. I didn't do anything wrong with the money he gave me. It goes somewhere which he may or may not know and which you may or may not know. What was it that hurt him so deeply that he was willing to spite himself and to cut himself off from the child he was closest to? That is. That usually means it's big. It's not big because it's huge. It's big because of the tear that it creates inside someone. And you know, a cutoff is rarely distance. It's meant to create distance, but in fact, it demands a lot of psychic energy to not think about someone. It sometimes takes more energy not to think about someone than to think about them. So cutoffs often happen only with people who are really close. And it feels impossible to hold the contradiction between how I love my child and my child did something that I find unforgivable. And that's why I asked if there was anything in the family history where people did unforgivable things or have there been other cutoffs for that matter, in previous generations.

[Marie]

So, yeah. So here's the thing. Nobody did something really wrong. And actually I'm extremely lucky because both sides of my family are. It's really good family. There is no big drama, nobody in jail, no nothing big good. But I know there is always a but it's a pattern that my dad had that and we know and my dad, the way it goes with him, you go to hero to zero. It's black or white. And when at some point and is really not good with emotion, to express it, to feel it. And when at some point he decided that it's too much, it just got. And I saw that multiple times. He did that with one of his brother now talk again together. Me, my mom, business partner, friends. And it's known, even with my sister. We know that.

[Therapist]

Okay. Okay. So I asked the wrong question. Not the wrong question, but when I asked the question is there history around money? You said no, but I could have asked or I'm asking now. Is there history around cutoff and you're telling me yes? Many?

[Marie]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

If you're not with me, you're against me.

[Marie]

Correct.

[Therapist]

If we can't be in harmony, then we are in irreconcilable conflict.

[Marie]

Correct.

[Therapist]

And all the people that you mentioned that have been on the Sur Le Bon as we say exiled, do they get entry permit again or it's for life?

[Marie]

Most of the time it's for life.

[Therapist]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify. Running a business isn't as glamorous as you might think. There are thousands of hours of behind the scene work to build infrastructure, develop products and attract customers. In fact, it's almost impossible to keep things running smoothly without a supportive, consistent team. If you want to add another member to that team, a platform you and your customers can rely on, you might want to check out Shopify. Shopify is an all in one digital commerce platform that wants to help your business sell better than ever before. Shopify says they can help you convert browsers into buyers and sell more over time. There's a reason companies like Mattel and Heinz turn to Shopify to sell more products to more customers. Businesses that sell more sell with Shopify. Want to upgrade your business and get the same checkout Mattel uses. You can sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com Esther that's shopify shopify.com Esther to upgrade your selling today shopify.com Esther support for where Should We Begin Comes from Babbel. Babbel is a language learning app that can help you understand and confidently speak a new language in just 10 minutes a day. That's because Babbel is designed to prepare you for practical, real world conversations. Even a polyglot like myself has found success learning a new language on Babel and these days it's helping my husband learn French. Now, of course you want to know how are his French lessons going? It's been decades that he's been trying to learn French and we're going to be spending time in a French country soon, so I'm quite eager and so is he. And here's wow, you're asking me how it's going. All I do is hear him speak French in the background and that tells me it's going pretty well. Let's get more of you talking a new language Babbel is gifting you 60% off [e-mail] Esther get up to 60% [e-mail] Esther spelled B-A B B E L.com Esther babbel.com Esther rules and restrictions may apply. Support for where should we begin? Comes from. Defender an intrepid spirit can take many forms. Maybe you're an adventurous eater who will travel hundreds of miles for the perfect meal. Maybe you're living out the van life fantasy. Or maybe you're a die hard mountain lover who only feels at home in the woods. Whatever the case, the most devout adventurers will always find ways to push themselves to go farther, stay longer and push harder. And now there's a luxury vehicle that can keep up the Defender 110. The whole Defender family of vehicles has been engineered for a new generation of explorers. Built with robust materials and tested to the extreme. All to ensure comprehensive on and off road capabilities, complete with a tough rigid body design and durable lightweight architecture for extra strength and maneuverability. Whatever your lifestyle, the Defender family has a model to fit. There's the 2 door Defender 90 for a smaller crew or the Defender 130 which seats up to 8. Explore the full Defender lineup@land roverusa.com so when you say I began grieving him, what do you mean?

[Marie]

Well, so eight years ago when he learned about my alone and he told me that he didn't want to talk to me anymore, I realized at this time too that I may be overwhelming and it was too much, I understood why he was, it wasn't this mental status. So for maybe eight or nine months he didn't give me news and I, I didn't talk to him. And then I tried slowly at a time to build a new relationship. Now that I knew that he didn't want to have to be involved with personal stuff. So I kept the relationship really superficial, you know, like what did you cook this weekend? You know, how's the weather? Stuff like that. And then so it came back okay until August 2022 that I went back home and the last day we had lunch and he brought me back to the airport. On the way there he was talking against my mom on a really rude way. And then after that he started to ask me question about my mom, said how she's doing, so how she's doing. And it's true, I lie. I was just fine and I changed topic and I was not comfortable to go there. He told my grandmother after that that that's the reason why he decided to Stop talking to me. So I went back home. I tried to call him multiple times after that and I usually.

[Therapist]

What do you mean that was the reason? The fact that you were in a triangle and that you didn't ally with him or the fact that you protected your mom or what about.

[Marie]

He didn't sit this way. So basically he said that I lie in his face and I was disrespectful and not honest. So like he doesn't want to deal with people like that and he's sick of it. So I went back home and usually I was talking to him once a week or once every other week and I started to text him and call him and he was not answering.

[Therapist]

Do you meet for family holidays still or zero?

[Marie]

I went back home last January. I saw my uncle, my grandmother on my dad's side. It's the elephant in the room. Nobody wants to talk about that. But no, I don't see him. When your producer reached me, she asked if my dad could be okay to participate. And it's kind of a good thing. But I was not expecting him at first to reach him. Actually I reached his wife because I used to have a really good relationship with her. I didn't talk to her for two years but it's a lovely woman. I always really love her and had a good relationship with her. And I'm even wondering if it's not my dad's that answered that. But he kind of confirmed that right now he's extremely mad that I'm doing that. Extremely mad. There is no hope to build a relationship or something. I try multiple times.

[Therapist]

And do you think that your call to his wife is a one time call or do you think you will stay in touch with him through her?

[Marie]

Oh no, it was extremely clear. I just wanted to give the the opportunity. It said that actually she said that my dad doesn't deserve to read this. The text I sent the is a good man, that I should work on my problem, that he did nothing wrong. How I dare to, you know, making all the reproach on him. And I really apologize, you know, I said it's not what I want at all. I just want to make a good relationship and be held by a third person. And it's coming with just good intention. And the, the last text she sent me said don't insist.

[Therapist]

But you knowing that this would be a deal breaker for him, you chose to do the session anyway.

[Marie]

Yes, because I think it's already over.

[Therapist]

The deal is broken.

[Marie]

It's way much before that. Again, I Try. Since August, I tried to call him multiple times. At some point he answered. He told me that he was mad at me, that I lied to him. And I told him this time I was really proud. I said, good, we're going to talk about it. And he was really mad. And he said, okay, I have two minutes. And no, it won't take two minutes. And we need to be both in a good mindset. So call me back when you ready and we could have this discussion together. He never called back. So I wait two months and I decided to send him a video, eight minutes video, trying to explain everything I just explained to you and say that, you know, I was not. We don't have a real relationship. So, you know, it's. It's needs to build, Build up one step at a time. But I will love that. But that's why it's hard sometime for me to communicate with him. And on that, he emailed me an email that just said that I was using him, that I was disrespectful.

[Therapist]

And the only way you would ever be able to come back, maybe not the only way, but the primary way that you would be able at this point to come back to him is if you put everything on you. If you take responsibility for everything that has happened and you say me bad. If you ask him anything that involves him acknowledging whatsoever, that will not happen. But at this moment, what I'm hearing from you is I need to let him go. For the time being, probably he will be in touch with your children even if he doesn't want to be in touch with you.

[Marie]

That's the thing. Honestly, again, to me, that's why I don't think there is this 1% hope inside of me that I wish it could happen. Okay.

[Therapist]

Sometimes it does. Sometimes the grandchild brings the parent and the child back together.

[Marie]

I think the only reason why he would have contacted me again is rather if I'm, you know, when I'm going to be pregnant or if he's on his deadbed.

[Therapist]

How close are you with your sister?

[Marie]

Very close.

[Therapist]

Okay. So you know that you have her and her children as part of your family. Mom, Mama, your face just answered. So mom will be a person who you take care of, but she will not be a resource for you?

[Marie]

No.

[Therapist]

Okay.

[Marie]

My aunt, though, my mom's sister, she's my second mother. She's amazing. And thank God I'm really close to her and my sister and we can talk of everything.

[Therapist]

And so this will become a matriarchy.

[Marie]

On my mom's side we only girl. And actually yeah, it's the way I've been raised.

[Therapist]

But you know, it won't replace him, but it will buffer you to develop meaningful relationships with other members of your family and other people who will become your extended family. You can't replace the grandfather, but you can bring members of a chosen family.

[Marie]

Yes.

[Therapist]

And it will be intergenerational. And your kids will have other people. And you have a partner, right?

[Marie]

Correct. Amazing partner.

[Therapist]

Okay, wonderful. And he, she. They.

[Marie]

He.

[Therapist]

He has a family that is involved, that some people are involved.

[Marie]

So we are both really far away is from friends. We don't have family member around us. We do have good friends though. But no, I agree with you. I mean, giving support and love for our future children. I think especially of my mother's side. I mean, we already close. Physically I'm not there, but I know I'm gonna have a really good support. I. I'm 38 years old and I still have this. This need to have my dad that is, you know, proud and there that. That I have really hard time to grief that when I look the way he is and everything, let's say would have been my father most likely would have been in my life. But there is this irrational part of me that still wants that even if I know that he is not able to give it to me and he won't.

[Therapist]

And that has always been central for you. It's not so much my dad's physical presence, but it's my dad's approval of me, my dad being proud of me, my dad validating my choices. So you have gone to zero, but he is still the hero.

[Marie]

See? Yes. And even if mentally I know everything and it can be toxic sometimes. And it's what makes me so mad.

[Therapist]

So why him?

[Marie]

What do you mean why him?

[Therapist]

Why is he the one whose opinion of you and whose approval of you and who. It's always fascinating, right, how we pick somebody to be the one which is not necessarily the one who will do it or do it well, but we get stuck there.

[Marie]

I think it's always been like that since I'm young. I always, you know, the daddy girl. I always wanted that when I was 4. How far I remember. And I don't know, you know, I'm just thinking that it's, you know, your father is your first man in your life. So it's the first man of my life. I would have say that. And it never completely fulfilled. So it's always like I always try to go for something that it's interesting.

[Therapist]

Because on the one hand you want his approval, his validation, his recognition, and on the other hand you went and did something completely behind his back to prove that you could do it yourself, that you didn't need his approval, that you could take your own responsibility, that you could make your own choices, that you could handle your own monies. So you're on both sides of the street just totally fine.

[Marie]

It's true. No, it's true. And it's true to me to prove myself and to be independent and I make my own decision. It's really important. But you're right.

[Therapist]

So you want both. I want approval of my own choices and my own decisions. And he in some way by pushing you out, even though it hurts badly, I just want to make sure that that's repeated is offering you the opportunity to free yourself from looking for water in the wrong place.

[Marie]

Sure.

[Therapist]

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from the NPR Podcast Up First Staying on top of breaking news takes more energy and attention than ever. But imagine how much time could you save if you limited your news consumption to just 15 minutes a day. Maybe you would spend an extra hour with a loved one or simply stop doom scrolling and go for a walk around your neighborhood, preferably in nature. If you'd like to reclaim your attention without falling out of the loop, you might want to listen to the NPR podcast Up First. Up first is a daily show that covers the three most important stories of the day, including in just 15 minutes. Episodes touch on the essential stories you need to know and cover topics like international conflict, the new administration, and so much more. I listened on the train on my way to the studio today and I really appreciated how short and to the point episodes are. If you're looking for more news and less noise, you can listen to the up first podcast from NPR today. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Nutrafol. Your hair can be an accessory, a statement, even an extension of your personality. So it's understandable that thinning or shedding hair can cause a lot of distress. That's where Nutrafool might be able to help. Nutrafool is the number one dermatologist recommended supplement for hair growth trusted by over one and a half million people. That's because they don't believe in a one size fits all approach to hair health. Instead, they've created a whole body formula that can tackle specific causes like stress, nutrition, hormones and lifestyle. Start your hair growth journey with NutraFool. For a limited time, NutraFool is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to NutraFool.com and enter the promo code begin find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend Nutraful for healthier hair. NutraFool.com spell n u t r a f o l dot com promo code begin that's NutraFool.com promo code begin.

[Esther]

Support for the show comes from the ACLU. The Trump administration is pushing a dangerous and sweeping attempt to control our bodies, our families and our lives at the same time. A Supreme Court case this term could shape the future of bodily autonomy for all. All Tennessee wants to take away transgender people's autonomy over their own bodies. They think the ruling that overturned Roe versus Wade allows them to do it. This would hurt everyone's freedom to control their bodies and lives. The government has no right to deny a transgender person the health care they need, just as they have no right to tell someone if, when, or how they start a family. The ACLU told the court that everyone deserves the freedom to control their bodies. Learn [e-mail] autonomy.

[Therapist]

Basically, the opportunity here is for you to actually become your own validator or to find other people to join the choir, but to be the one to because if you make your own decisions but basically you still want him to approve them, then they're not so much your own decisions. It's semi autonomy.

[Marie]

True. Yeah.

[Therapist]

And I understand it's like I'm going to do my own thing, but it will only be valid if you tell me it's good. That's pseudo maturity.

[Marie]

Agree. Pseudo.

[Therapist]

So this is your opportunity to develop full maturity. It comes with more aloneness. But then you choose the people that you want to surround yourself with, but you're less in a half position. You know, people who go to experience their autonomy behind the back, people who try to prove that they are independent by creating secrets. Basically, they're in a compromised position. Not here, not there. It's half. Real independence is done in full, broad daylight. Real independence is when you actually do your thing. You say it. And at the same time, you do as we say in French, tu la sum. You own it. But you don't need to do it behind the back because it's yours and you. You live with it. And in part, that's what he's pissed at. He can't say it to you, but I have a sense that that's, you know, because he took you as the girl who needs him. And he acted accordingly. And you went to prove to him, no, I don't need you. I can do this myself. But then you went and did it behind his back. And he is not a man who holds nuance. So if you go behind his back, you're basically slapping him.

[Marie]

So it's funny because I'm an open book for. Actually, the only person that I was not an open book is with my dad, like you said.

[Therapist]

Yes, because he's the one you need the approval from. But you were first going to go and see if you can do this by yourself before you turn. You know, it's like you were so close with him for so long that in order to do something independently from him, you had to do it in hiding.

[Marie]

Yeah, you're right.

[Therapist]

He didn't like that. And in effect, it did not let you develop a real sense of autonomy. The real sense of autonomy is exactly. That is done as an open book. If you need to go behind the back of the other person, it's because on some level you're trying to push them away so that their opinion doesn't influence you, but their opinion lives inside of you, and so you try to shut them out. In a way, you did to him what he now does to you. You did it in a shorter version, in a much more malleable version, but you pushed him out in order to be able to make your own decisions because he loomed very large inside of you.

[Marie]

I think you're right. Yeah.

[Therapist]

So that says to me that grieving is one piece of the story here. I have to accept that he's not around. But the other part of the story here is this is unforeseen circumstances in which I'm going to really learn to own my independence and not to construct my independence in light of him. My independence has been completely intertwined with him. What's he going to say? How is he going to react? What do I need to tell him? What do I not need to tell him? Basically, he's in the center. And this absence creates a space in which I will need to really develop my own sense of autonomy without it being in reaction to him.

[Marie]

Yeah, I think, I think for the past year, I, I tried to. That's the thing. I tried to build this more, this self. And it was not there. So how's that been? Getting better. Really not perfect. And that's the thing. I'm still. I, I, I, I hate to admit that, but I still have. Again, this.

[Therapist]

This, right? Yes. Yes. The little girl wants to go and say, papa, Papa, regarde. See what I've done? See, you know, and because it's okay to say, you know, I don't always trust myself. I want to do it by myself, but I don't really trust myself. And I don't know how to live with the space in between the action that says, I know what I'm doing, and the reaction that says, but I'm not sure that this is the right thing for me, so to speak. And so I always counted on my dad to close the gap. And I'm going to learn gradually to close that gap myself. That doesn't mean I become 100% sure of what I do. That means that I learn to live with the doubt, with the uncertainty, with the ambiguity, with the space in between. We all have that space in between.

[Marie]

So how do you do that?

[Therapist]

You know, I chose to do this and I hope that it's the right thing, but I don't fully know. I think it is. It feels right. But maybe I'll know later. Maybe the time and maturation will tell me if this was a good decision. But in the moment, it's the decision I wanted to make. I don't need to be sure that it is the perfect decision, the right decision, the smartest decision, the only decision decision. It just is a decision that's that space in between. And maybe I will think there was a better one later on, or I may think it actually made sense in the moment. Feeling confident? A friend of mine, Terry, really often says, you know, confidence is your ability to see yourself as flawed, as imperfect, but still hold yourself in high regard.

[Marie]

See that? It's hard, really hard.

[Therapist]

That's your project. Your project is grieving him. Yes, but the main project at this moment for you is that other piece, because one will feed off into the other.

[Marie]

Makes sense. You're right. I think what helped a lot in the past few years is my husband is wonderful. And he provided me a really safe space that even when we are fighting, I know he won't leave. He won't, you know, he will be there and he will still love me. And he allowed myself to show him more my floss and to accept it. It's still baby step, though.

[Therapist]

It's good. It's very good. Because in effect, you didn't really learn to trust your opinions because you were busy trying to please Papa. True, you wanted to please him. You wanted him to approve you wanted him to like you, to admire you, to boast you, and therefore you. He had the confidence and you were just trying to match and please. And it left you with not enough skill to trust your own. Not to trust that you are perfect, that you know everything, but to trust that you can live with the decisions you make and their imperfections. And your husband is offering you the opportunity to practice that even if you have a nasty fight. No, he has no intention of going anywhere. So you don't have to worry if I don't please him, if I don't cater to him, if I don't placate him, I will be punished. Which in effect, is what happened with your dad. You went away, you did behind his back something that you really wanted. And for a moment, you stepped out of your way, role of pleaser, placator. And here you were, you, you got punished exactly as you feared you would. So everything went according to script. I mean, you know, you stepped out of your role and you got what you deserved, so to speak, from him. Of course, it's not what you deserve, by no means, but I understand. Yeah, yeah. This was very conditional love. There's no unconditional love, but this was definitely conditional love. This is, you do as I say and I'm with you. You don't do as I say and I'm not with you. So you, knowing that, went ahead and did something behind his back so that you wouldn't have to confront him.

[Marie]

Exactly.

[Therapist]

And that doesn't go according to him. And you have a new relationship in which you're going to practice and learn to trust yourself because you don't have to worry about being punished by your husband every time you don't please him.

[Marie]

This was an Esther calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [e-mail] where should we Begin with Esther Perel Is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julia Nat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

[Esther]

Support for the show comes from the aclu. The Trump administration is pushing a dangerous and sweeping attempt to control our bodies, our families and our lives. At the same time, a Supreme Court case this term could shape the future of bodily autonomy for all. Tennessee wants to take away transgender people's autonomy over their own bodies. They think the ruling that overturned Roe v. Wade allows them to do it. This would hurt everyone's freedom to control their bodies and lives. The government has no right to deny a transgender person the health care they need, just as they have no right to tell someone if, when or how they start a family. The ACLU told the court that everyone deserves deserves the freedom to control their bodies. Learn [e-mail] autonomy.

[Marie]

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