Esther Calling - Stuck in the Middle

Summary

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel Episode: Esther Calling - Stuck in the Middle Release Date: July 28, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of "Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel," Esther Perel engages in a heartfelt and insightful intervention phone call with a caller grappling with the complexities of maintaining friendships amidst the turbulent relationship of two close friends. The conversation delves deep into themes of boundary-setting, emotional labor, and the underlying fears of abandonment that drive our interpersonal roles.

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Caller's Dilemma: Navigating Triangulation in Friendships

Timestamp [00:13 - 04:29]

The episode opens with a caller reaching out to Esther seeking guidance on setting boundaries within her friendships. She describes her predicament: two long-time friends are in a tumultuous relationship, oscillating between intense highs and challenging lows. As a mutual friend, she finds herself caught in the middle, often acting as both a confidant and a mediator.

Notable Quote:

Caller [00:13]: “I want to set in place boundaries that say, listen, I'm not your therapist, I'm not your relationship counsellor. I don't want to talk about those things. But I also don't want to lose the intimacy of our friendship.”

The caller expresses her frustration with being triangulated, receiving conflicting narratives from both friends, which leaves her feeling emotionally drained and conflicted about her role in their dynamic.

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Esther’s Analysis: Unpacking Emotional Boundaries and Self-Identity

Timestamp [04:01 - 19:55]

Esther delves into the caller's behavior, identifying a pattern where the caller has long assumed the role of the confidant within her social circles—a role forged partly during her upbringing. Despite her parents' stable marriage, she became the intermediary, offering separate support to each parent on matters they couldn't discuss with each other.

Notable Quote:

Esther Perel [07:04]: “Your friends must be really lucky.”

This role has become a survival mechanism for the caller, making her feel needed and important. Esther points out that this need stems from a deeper fear of abandonation, suggesting that by being indispensable, the caller subconsciously ensures that others won't leave her.

Notable Quote:

Esther Perel [11:05]: “And I feel needed. And if you need me and I'm useful and I'm important, then you don't leave me.”

The conversation reveals that the caller's empathy and facilitation skills, while beneficial in maintaining friendships, have also led to emotional over-involvement, causing her to internalize the conflicts of her friends. This internalization manifests physically, with the caller describing sensations like a "hot current up through my chest" during conflicts between her friends.

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Establishing Boundaries: Strategies and Insights

Timestamp [19:55 - 31:25]

Esther guides the caller towards recognizing the necessity of setting healthy boundaries without severing the intimacy of her friendships. She emphasizes that while the friendships are significant and worth maintaining, the caller should avoid taking responsibility for her friends' relationship dynamics.

Notable Quote:

Esther Perel [20:54]: “Can you imagine a close connection that does not mean taking responsibility for a relationship that should actually take responsibility for itself.”

Esther encourages the caller to acknowledge her own emotional responses and to vocalize her limits when the emotional toll becomes too heavy. She suggests practical steps, such as informing her friends that she is there to listen, not to fix their issues, thereby reducing her emotional burden.

Notable Quote:

Esther Perel [27:38]: “Now, if it becomes too much, if the feeling is becoming too strong, I'll know to say, I'm just here to listen. I'm not here to fix.”

The caller leaves the session with a clear action plan: to be more attuned to her own emotional signals, to establish boundaries by limiting joint interactions with her friends, and to prioritize her well-being without feeling guilty about stepping back.

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Conclusion

This episode poignantly illustrates the delicate balance between being a supportive friend and maintaining one's own emotional health. Esther Perel adeptly helps the caller uncover the root causes of her emotional entanglement and provides tangible strategies for establishing healthier boundaries. The conversation underscores the importance of self-awareness and the courage to prioritize personal well-being in the face of relational complexities.

Notable Closing Quote:

Caller [30:48]: “Oh, yeah, that actually feels very freeing to hear that.”

By the end of the call, the caller experiences a sense of liberation and clarity, ready to implement the insights gained to foster more balanced and fulfilling relationships.

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Credits: Produced by Magnificent Noise. Executive Producers: Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. Special thanks to Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

What you are about to hear is a classic Esther calling. A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world.

[Caller]

Hi Esther, I just have a question for you today about setting boundaries in friendships and if setting those boundaries might mean the end of a friendship. So two friends of mine are in a relationship and have been for a long time, as long as I've known them and they have what I would call a dysfunctional relationship. And that when it's good, it's great. They go through these really difficult lows and because I am friends with both of them, I end up getting both sides of the story quite often and it can be incredibly draining and I want to set in place boundaries that say, listen, I'm not your therapist, I'm not your relationship counsellor. I don't want to talk about those things. But I also don't want to lose the intimacy of our friendship. It feels like it's an either or kind of a situation. I think so that is that. Thank you for your help.

You have five new messages.

[Jen]

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[Caller]

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[Jen]

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[Esther Perel]

So you have two dear friends who are in a relationship together. That relationship goes through all kinds of crises. They both come to you, they confide in you. They both want you to see their side or to ally with them. You find yourself triangulated and in a bind and with a conflict around loyalty. And you would like either to be able to tell them how I cannot be thrown in the middle like this because I cherish you both and I will not be the arbiter of your food, or you would like to find a way to hear what they each have to say, but not let it get to you in the way that it does.

[Caller]

A little bit from column A and a little bit from column B. Yeah, that would be it. Because it is the thing. If I do have very strong relationships with both of them and I do want to be a comfort to them and I want to be, you know, if they're experiencing difficulty that they can both come to me. But I think it is the case of it. I'm a very empathetic person. So I do come away from it feeling it very strongly, I think. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What enters you and how does it enter you?

[Caller]

Frustration and not knowing what to do. And it's kind of. Because sometimes I almost want to, like, throttle them and scream at them because I'm getting it from both sides. So I kind of know what each one of them wants. But then if I'm to really impart what the other one has said to me, then I'm just becoming this, like, go between that I'm like, why don't you have this conversation amongst yourselves and not with me?

[Esther Perel]

Is this a first for you? First time you find yourself in such a triangle?

[Caller]

Not really. Um.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me.

[Caller]

So I have kind of always in most of my friend groups kind of growing up, and recently as well, I tend to be kind of like the confidant role. So if someone is experiencing quite a difficult time, very often, if it is with someone else that I know as well, they do feel like that they can come to me because they feel that one, they'll be listened to and that too, it won't be divulged to the other party or to the other side.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me, did you grow up with triangles? Are you familiar with this intense geometry of relationships?

[Caller]

Not hugely. My parents are both still married and they have been for, I think it's their 35th wedding anniversary this year. So it wouldn't have been a huge amount of, let's say, discord there in that way. But I kind of always would have been maybe a bit of a go between for them in some ways as well. And that there was certain things I could talk with with my mother that I wouldn't necessarily talk with my father and kind of vice versa. So there would have been those kind of like personal relationships, meaning that they.

[Esther Perel]

Each come to you to talk with you about certain things that they cannot talk with each other.

[Caller]

Yes. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

That's not what you said, you know.

[Caller]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Do you know what you said?

[Caller]

No, not really.

[Esther Perel]

I suppose it's the things that I cannot talk with them about. And so I talk with each one separately. But in fact, what I understood you meant is that they each have their share of things that they can't tell each other. And so you have been recruited long time ago to be the sounding board, the ear, the empathic one, the non judgmental one, the confidential one, the confidant, so to speak, the one that you can trust. And you have been the alleviator of the tensions and the places that they can't go with each other. So you have long standing resume of being a negotiator, a mediator, a facilitator, a peacemaker, a go between, a conflict resolution person. Your friends must be really lucky.

[Caller]

I'll have to update my resume for the next job application.

[Esther Perel]

I do, yes. I always think we have an unofficial resume. And I would definitely include that on your unofficial resume. This is a tremendous skill that you can bring to all environments. But what you're telling me is that in this instance it pains you and maybe because you're not able to solve it or to make it better, and so it stays with you. And you see their pain and their hurt and their anger and you wish that they could just do something, but neither of them is doing anything because they each want the other person to do something.

[Caller]

Yeah, very much.

[Esther Perel]

And have you said any of that to them? Do they know how challenging this is for you?

[Caller]

They do, partially. So what tends to be the pattern is that like a plan is made to do something and on the day that the plan comes up, they have had a fight or tensions are high, so they cancel or they back out and it kind of affects things. So I was talking to one of them on the day that this happened the last time, and I kind of said, just so you know, I'm at a point with, I want to make plans with you both less together because of this and I kind of can't be part of it anymore in that way. And I got these kind of messages from both. They're almost like tiptoeing to like come back and be like, hi, how are you? In that way of. They were acknowledging they had done wrong, but not necessarily addressing it, I suppose.

[Esther Perel]

And you have a confidant of your own?

[Caller]

I do. I have a long term partner of seven years.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. And you confide about that to your partner?

[Caller]

Yes. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And is your partner involved in the rapture of relational discord as well?

[Caller]

No, he's firmly outside of it. It's because he has seen the effect that it can have on me.

[Esther Perel]

So he's good boundary?

[Caller]

Yes, yes, very good.

[Esther Perel]

Boundaries and he provides a boundary for you. He's able sometimes to kind of hold you back from plunging in.

[Caller]

Yes. Yes, he is.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. And you let him know how useful and helpful that is to you.

[Caller]

Yes, I do. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. So what is the urge that makes it hard for you to not take it on because it penetrates your skin? So there's something that draws you in in the way that these two people are having it out with each other. And that is about you, that is not about them. What's your mission? What drives you that may or may not be conscious, for that matter?

[Caller]

I think what drives me in this context with them is that when the times are good, they're so good because they like, they're passionate people. I guess you're talking about them.

[Esther Perel]

I'm asking you. I get it. They're heaven and hell. They go up and down. They go from, you know, from bliss to distress. But you are affected by that. You respond to it as if it's happening to you. That's the issue of the boundary, is that what's happening to them happens to you. You can't even resist going in. You're in. It's visceral.

[Caller]

I think I want to be kept. And I find. I think why I have occupied this confidant role so often in my past has been because it makes me integral to someone. Yep. So they turn to me and then I feel important and I feel useful and.

[Esther Perel]

And I feel needed. And if you need me and I'm useful and I'm important, then you don't leave me.

[Caller]

Yeah, exactly.

[Esther Perel]

Because underneath the need to be helpful and to be involved, there is a bigger need that is to make sure that I don't get abandoned.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah, that is it. And that's kind of difficult to just.

[Esther Perel]

Take it in for a sec.

[Caller]

It's. It's a difficult feeling because I don't know where that element of not wanting to be abandoned comes from because I feel like I haven't been significantly abandoned in my life, let's say.

[Esther Perel]

No, you can't. You made yourself too indispensable.

[Caller]

It was good survival mechanism.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

If you are new here or haven't.

Been here in a bit.

Welcome to my office. For the whole month of July, I am offering you 20% off for the annual and monthly subscriptions on Apple Podcasts. By joining my office hours subscription on Apple Podcasts, you'll get an ad free version of these episodes plus you will have access to my Apple channel that includes the earliest seasons of the podcast, plus a clinical library of conversations with colleagues, coaches and other therapists as well. We offer follow ups with couples as well. If knowing more about their stories is something that interests you and that you're curious about, Join my office hours by clicking the subscribe button on the Where Should We Begin? Show page. See you there in thank you Foreign support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify. If you have an idea for something to sell, you won't get far without the right tools, but you can start with Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. We've used Shopify ourselves at Where Should We Begin to Sell our card game and now we have just released the new deck Where Should We Begin At Work. Shopify made it so easy for us to sell the game. They have hundreds of ready to use templates that let you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style and you can easily create email and social media campaigns to connect with your customers wherever they are. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. You can turn your big business idea into reality with Shopify on your side. You can sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Esther go to shopify.com Esther shopify.com Esther support for where Should We Begin? Comes from Deleteme. Your personal information is valuable. In fact, data brokers online make a whole business out of buying and selling it. Luckily there are tools like Deleteme. It's not just a one time service. Delete Me keeps working behind the scenes, monitoring and removing the personal information that you do not want online. My producer Jessie tried Deleteme herself. She is someone who values her privacy both in real life and online. So signing up for Deleteme was easy and she was able to start getting her personal information removed. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners today. Get 20% off your DeleteMe plan by texting begin to 64000. The only way to get 20% off is to text begin to 640. That's begin to 64000 message and data rates may apply. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Wondery. We humans, we're weird and hilarious and confusing and Incredible, no? An Armchair Expert from Wondery is a podcast that wants to explore why we are the way we are, what makes us succeed and what makes us screw up, and all the wild and wonderful parts of being alive. Hosted by Dax Shepard and Monica Padmin, the show explores big, honest conversations with artists, thinkers, scientists, and cultural icons like Alex Cooper, Brad Pitt, Monica Lewinsky, and me, for that matter, just to name a few. And then on Fridays, they flip the mic to the listeners with Armchair Anonymous, where real people call in with raw, funny and totally human confessions. From disastrous dates and family secrets to accidentally joining a cult, they've heard it all, and now you can, too. If you love self reflection, big ideas, and embracing the comedic chaos of life, follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast and subscribe to armchair expert on YouTube.

So I can imagine, and you tell me if any of this resonates, because it's really. I'm fishing with a broad net. We just met, but sometimes the little boy who becomes the confidant to his beloved parents is privy to their discord, is privy to their tensions and worries that that may have consequences for their relationship. And so he becomes a marvelous diplomat and he makes himself indispensable. And he thinks as long as they come to me, nothing bad will happen to me. Not just to them, to you. And that becomes such second nature that, no, you don't even feel the fear of abandonment because it's covered up with your instrumentality, with your empathy, with your facilitation skills. But you went straight there, and I think you're right on the mark. I will be important. I will be needed. But why does it matter for me to be so needed? Because if I'm needed, you won't leave me. Or you won't leave each other, for that matter, which has consequences for me.

[Caller]

Yeah. And I think in this little microcosm, what's been happening with the friends, they have become such close friends, especially living nearby over the pandemic and everything, and especially as I've gotten older and you know, your networks, you're not surrounded by people all the time, that because they're both such strong friends, I don't want to lose them. And I know they love each other and I know they're well suited in that way, but if they were to dissolve for whatever reason, part of me would think I didn't do enough to help them. And I would then feel really responsible for losing this really great friendship that I've managed to find in my late 20s, which I'm talking like I'm towards my deathbed. But it does feel significant. They feel like significant people in my life that will be there for a long time.

[Esther Perel]

That is beautiful. And they should be significant. That doesn't mean that you have to take on responsibilities that don't belong to you. You're important, but not that important. If it doesn't work out for them, it's because of whatever is happening between them. And you can continue your friendship with them even though it demands navigating. It's a complicated dance, but we've done that forever. So you be a good friend. But being their best friend and wanting them in your life and realizing your circle has shrunk and you really don't want to lose them doesn't mean that you become responsible for their relationship. Which in your mind means for them being a couple. It's a bit grandiose. It's a responsibility that doesn't belong to you.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Can you imagine a close connection? That does not mean taking responsibility for a relationship that should actually take responsibility for itself.

[Caller]

I can. I'm just not sure what that would look like.

[Esther Perel]

When I listen to you both, when I see you in your fights, it pains me sometimes. I wish I could do something, but I feel helpless. And I think you need help. You are stuck in a cycle of blame and defense and explosions and bliss and hell. And I'm okay listening. I welcome you coming to me. But my role is going to be to listen and not to take it on. And in a way take on that which you don't. Because your relationship is like a distribution center where everybody gets the package the other one doesn't want to carry. So I'm going to close my facilities. I'm a friend. I'm not a drop off center. But this you say to yourself, of course, more than you say to them. And I think that this also would be a great chat with your partner because it seems that this is the first time that you have a glimpse into why you get so ensnared and you've learned something about you.

[Caller]

Yeah, definitely. I don't think I kind of had made that connection to my parents before in that same way. I was kind of aware of the confidant role but I didn't know where it had come from. So kind of seeing it in that way of it was forged in the flames of family life is something to definitely think more about. I think for sure.

[Esther Perel]

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.

[Caller]

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[Hiro]

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[Jen]

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[Caller]

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[Caller]

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[Esther Perel]

Do you feel it in your body when they talk to you and you start to feel, like, stuck?

[Caller]

I do, yeah. It's like. It's like a hot current up through, like, my chest that kind of gets to the throat. Yeah. And it's a funny. I think it's in those situations that I douse the fire with the bucket of water by being the confidant, because that makes me feel like I can be the observer. I can remove myself. I can put up the wall against emotions in the moment with the two of them or individually, whatever. And then when I leave that situation and then the wall comes down, all the tension hasn't gone away. It's just been waiting at the other side of the wall. And then it all just rushes in and hits me after the fact.

[Esther Perel]

Right?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so you have a place to start. Put it in your own words. What's the first thing you want to try to do differently or to pay attention to?

[Caller]

The first thing I want to pay attention to is my own reactions and my body when these situations happen and look for those signs. And rather than not vocalizing that and sitting and taking all of this and trying to help and trying to fix, I'm just going to be there and just going to let things happen to a certain degree. And then if it becomes too much, if the feeling is becoming too strong, I'll know to say, I'm just here to listen. I'm not here to fix.

[Esther Perel]

Yep, you don't need to wait that long. That's the only thing I would suggest. And you feel that contraction and constriction to your chest, and you put your hands on your chest and you identify it with, oh, I know that fear, I know that tension, that grip. You can let them know because when people fight, here's something I want to leave you with. Often when people fight in front of a friend or in front of others, they fight like they have nothing to lose. Their anger emboldens them. They can say things they think have no consequences. And what's happening in your body is that you're registering the pain, the hurt, the impending loss, the scars of the slings. And that's when your chest goes really tight. You're absorbing that which they are denying. So you need to, basically, if you can, give it back to them where it belongs, let it be where it needs to be so that they can feel the breath and the whole range of what's happening to them. And the reason you respond so well when they're going into the positive swing again is because it takes care of your anxiety and you can finally breathe again. So you are completely regulated by their swings, up and down, up and down. And that becomes your internal reality. Up and down, up and down. And the boundary you're asking me is how do I maintain a boundary where whatever ups and downs they go through is not something that I'm going through when they knock their foot, I don't have to say I. It's not your danger. It's the memory of the dangers that the little boy often experienced, but it's not the danger of today.

[Caller]

Oh, yeah, that actually feels very freeing to hear that.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. You can tell him we're not home anymore. We don't have. This is not the same. This is not mom and dad. I don't need to, you know, gather all the internal troops. Is this a good start?

[Caller]

Yeah, it's a fantastic start. It really is. Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

You're welcome.

This was a classic Esther calling. A one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message. And Estaire might just call you. Send your questions to producerparrell. Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhey, Kristin Muller and Juliannet. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.