Esther Calling - Will This Heartbreak Ever End?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel

Episode: Esther Calling – Will This Heartbreak Ever End?
Release Date: September 22, 2025

---

Brief Overview

In this powerful "Esther Calling" episode, Esther Perel offers deep, empathic guidance to a caller navigating the lingering pain of his first heartbreak at age 29. Through their candid conversation, they unpack the bonds between childhood emotional blueprint, romantic attachment, and sexual self-esteem, illuminating how first loves—and their loss—can reverberate through our sense of self and relationships. The dialogue explores vulnerability, emotional and sexual dynamics, the struggle to let go, and ultimately, how we might honor pain as part of growth.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Caller’s Question and Context

(00:11–02:44)

• Caller’s core question: How do I let go of someone I still long for when I know the relationship was toxic?

• Background: First major relationship, ended a year ago at age 28–29, complicated by repeated attempts to reconnect and a difficult breakup.

• Personal history: Recognizes patterns from parents—emotional detachment, lack of affection, shaped his own attachment needs.

  "How do I let go of heartbreak that is your first heartbreak at age 29 … which complicates things maybe a bit?"
  — Caller (00:11)

---

2. Childhood Emotional Blueprint and Attachment Styles

(03:04–08:12)

• Familial roots: The caller reflects on his emotionally distant upbringing, connecting it with similar dynamics in his relationship.

• Insight: Despite being unaware of his emotional deprivation as a child, intimacy in his first romantic relationship triggered a deep yearning and attachment.

  "I didn't know that I missed love, closeness, connection, affection … but when I met her, everything in me was screaming longing and yearning for all of it."
  — Esther Perel (05:19)

---

3. Intimacy, Sexual Experience, and Performance Anxiety

(08:12–14:49)

• Sexual history: Late start with dating and partnered intimacy. First experiences complicated by performance anxiety—difficulty reaching orgasm with a partner, feeling “forced in my mind.”

• Pattern identified: Emotional longing and need for connection mirrored by sexual inhibition and self-consciousness.

• Perel’s psychoeducation: Years of masturbatory habits create a default blueprint, making partnered sex more challenging—learning to synchronize with another is a process.

• Moment of growth: Progress was made in the relationship by developing trust, which helped resolve some sexual symptoms.

  "You have learned how to let go with yourself, but not with a partner … There are trust issues, control issues, and also consequences of bad habituation."
  — Esther Perel (13:18)

---

4. Accelerated Attachment and Conflict Loops

(14:49–20:13)

• Relationship arc: Initial euphoria (“on cloud nine”) gave way to quick difficulties. The relationship mirrored anxious-avoidant dynamics: she craved reassurance, he withdrew.

• Breakup pattern: Cycles of breaking up and returning, both struggling to let go due to the depth of initial emotional fulfillment.

  "When we met, there was a lot of beautiful elixir between us, but also very quickly, did we bring to each other anxieties, insecurities, vulnerabilities, fear of abandonment … We brought them in the suitcase, and we opened the suitcase right in front of the other and said, help me. Save me. Cure me."
  — Esther Perel (16:51)

---

5. Clinging to Intimacy Despite Damage

(17:55–20:13)

• Caller’s insight: The affection and safety matched what he always longed for, which made that intimacy feel irreplaceable—creating a strong resistance to ending things, even as the partnership became unhealthy.

  "The affection that I received from her matched the affection that suited my inner child … so profound … there almost was no hair on my head thinking that I would ever let that feeling go."
  — Caller (18:36)

---

6. The Cycle and Endings: Breaking Up and Relapsing

(22:37–32:02)

• Frequent breakups: They repeatedly ended things but were drawn back by the hope of recapturing the initial connection.
• Trust and insecurity: The relationship was marred by suspicion, privacy invasions (checking his phone), and insecurity about sexual matters (frequency, perceived fidelity).
• Confession: Caller admits to past porn use, secondary to his intimacy challenges, and describes sexual/romantic “fumbling” due to insecurity and inexperience.

---

7. Emotional Gush vs. Sexual Restraint: A Key Contrast

(32:04–39:44)

• In-session insight: Esther observes a paradox—emotionally, the caller is impulsive and all-in, but sexually he’s reserved and inhibited.

• Psychological meaning: Emotional flooding contrasts with corporeal withholding; the caller reflects on how safety triggers emotional overflow and, paradoxically, sexual control.

• Esther’s advice: The goal is not rigid control, but staying connected to oneself, grounded and balanced, even in the intensity of new love.

  "There's a gap between how you emotionally rush into something—flood it, flood yourself … and then sexually you practice in some way delayed gratification. … The contrast between the flooding of the emotional and the restraining of the sexual."
  — Esther Perel (33:45, 36:17)

---

8. The Struggle to Move On

(42:28–46:08)

• Caller’s pain: Despite knowing the relationship was toxic, his longing persists, fueled by low self-esteem and fears of inadequacy or not being accepted due to intimacy struggles and physical scars.

• Desire: Hopes to find a new partner accepting of his vulnerabilities and to build a healthier relationship.

  "How difficult it might be to find that elsewhere, forgetting the fact rationally … it might be way more healthy than the relationship I had with my ex. … The most difficult part … is the fact that I feel inadequate … will someone accept me for who I am and the struggles I have with intimacy?"
  — Caller (43:10)

---

9. Esther’s Guidance for Healing

(46:08–52:19)

• New stories, new music: Each love begins differently—there is no need to script the next relationship based on the first. Be open about sexual realities upfront, see “performance anxiety” as a symptom of misplaced focus on masculinity rather than pleasure itself.

• Growth mindset: Don’t lock identity in present limitations—learn, adapt, and befriend oneself as one would a dear friend.

  "Love stories … are like pieces of music. They start in a different key, with a different rhythm … different story."
  — Esther Perel (46:08)

  "So you asked me, how do I get over my first relationship? … Don’t put yourself into a box. Let yourself grow. Let yourself process, let yourself learn. … Be a good friend to yourself in that sense. Speak to yourself the way you would speak if a friend was doing the same thing."
  — Esther Perel (50:55–51:45)

---

10. Closing Moments and Reflections

(52:19–52:41)

• Gratitude and hope: The caller finds the conversation “refreshing,” gaining perspective on how his vulnerabilities can deepen future connections.

• Esther’s final words: Don’t fixate on “take it or leave it”—growth is continual, and pain coexists with vitality.

  "There are many times that I feel actually so alive because of this heartbreak as well. Maybe sounds a little weird, but in pain, but alive."
  — Caller (52:08)

  "These two go very much together as well. Thank you so much."
  — Esther Perel (52:19)

---

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "How do I let go of someone that is not into me in a romantic sense anymore?" — Caller (00:11)
• "When I met her, everything in me was screaming longing and yearning for all of it." — Esther Perel (05:19)
• "I was like a fish looking for food in an open ocean where there was no food." — Caller (06:40)
• "We brought [anxieties and fears] in the suitcase, and we opened the suitcase right in front of the other and said, help me. Save me. Cure me." — Esther Perel (16:51)
• "The affection that I received from her matched the affection that suited my inner child." — Caller (18:36)
• "Love stories...are like pieces of music. They start in a different key, with a different rhythm...different story." — Esther Perel (46:08)
• "Don’t put yourself into a box. Let yourself grow. ... Be a good friend to yourself in that sense." — Esther Perel (51:08)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction and caller's question: 00:00–02:44
• Family history and attachment: 03:04–05:19
• Intimacy and sexual anxiety: 08:12–14:49
• Early signs of relationship toxicity: 14:49–18:36
• Affection, vulnerability, and dynamic cycles: 17:55–20:13
• Breakups and looping attachment: 22:37–32:02
• Esther's observation on emotional/sexual contrast: 32:04–39:44
• Moving on, self-acceptance, and sexual fears: 42:28–46:08
• Esther’s closing guidance and caller’s reflection: 46:08–52:19

---

Tone and Language

Candid, reflective, and compassionate. The conversation honors emotional rawness, using evocative metaphors ("the ocean with nutrients," "opening the faucet") and balances insight with gentle humor and directness, typical of Esther Perel’s therapeutic style.

---

Takeaways for Listeners

• First heartbreak can reopen childhood wounds and attach us to unhealthy dynamics through longing for unmet needs.
• Emotional flooding and sexual inhibition can be paradoxically linked, reflecting deeper patterns of safety and self-regulation.
• Relinquishing pain is less about forceful forgetting, more about integrating lessons, honoring growth, and staying open to new, different beginnings.
• Healing comes from self-compassion, growth, and gradually reclaiming a sense of agency in future connections.

---

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

Just for me to hear it directly from you rather than in writing. Just tell me the question and a little bit about the context of your question.

[Caller]

Of course. Yeah. So my first relationship ended around a year ago now. And as I'm 29 right now, it ended when I was 28 and I've been having a really hard time ever since with ups and downs. Luckily, it hasn't all been completely depressing, but it has been quite a hard time. And I reconnected several times after a breakup with my ex and that didn't help. But that's also part of the issue, I think. And the question that I have is how do I let go of someone that is not into me in a romantic sense anymore? And I know that's for the better because the relationship was very hard and had very or had many toxic dynamics that were not good for either of us. And so my primary question is how to let go of heartbreak that is your first heartbreak at the age of 29, which complicates things maybe a bit. And of course there are way more details to this in my own history as well that led up to this point.

[Esther Perel]

Support for the show comes from Paramount, now streaming on Paramount. Hunted by hackers, stalked by assassins and wanted by international police, Tony and Ziva are on the run and getting some action. Car chases, killer drones, prison breaks. Good thing espionage is their love language. Get ready for the ultimate romantic escape with the premiere of NCIS as Tony and Ziva. Now streaming on Paramount.

[Caller]

Not all journalism is the same. Take the Guardian. Our coverage has something unique. Fierce independence. Nobody owns us or tells us what we can and can't say, so we're free to report the whole picture. We connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe, expose corruption wherever we find it, and give fresh perspective on everything from wellness and soccer to culture, the climate and more. Read, watch and listen to the Guardian for [e-mail].

[Esther Perel]

What'S important for me to know about your first love, the ending, the troubles of the relationship, the relationship school that you went to in your childhood. What is important for me to know?

[Caller]

I think that the relationship itself, and it took some time for me to notice, but looked somewhat familiar to the relationship that my parents have still to this day, which is emotionally detached from each other as well, which also had an effect on me and my siblings. And although they did their very best, they also, and primarily my mother came from quite troubled backgrounds with large families and also no emotional or very little emotional availability from their parents and that's something that when I was younger, I never really stood still by until my sister first like asked me the same question, like, do you ever feel unheard by emotionally unheard or not seen by. By my parents? And she first asked me that when I was like 18. And I didn't really connect to that question very much. So I told my sister, what are you talking about exactly? More or less. I was like, well, no, I was just too occupied with my own things at the time. And I didn't have any like real relationship experience back then. And so I was just doing my things, enjoying myself with my friends and things like that. So yeah, I was like, I was surprised, like, no, I have no clue what you're talking about, basically. And over the last couple of years that made more sense already. Also before my relationship with my now ex girlfriend, but now that that relationship concluded and also somewhat during the relationship, I felt so seen in that relationship by my first girlfriend that I attached myself way too quickly to the relationship as well. And that was some dynamic that we created together. It felt somewhat like love bombing, if you could say it like that. But I was just as much there as my ex girlfriend was. So yeah, I think that that's a little bit of context, like in regards to my youth.

[Esther Perel]

So I didn't know that I missed love, closeness, connection, affection as well. Physical affection, affection, affection, yes. But when I met her, everything in me was screaming longing and yearning for all of it. And big gulps big.

[Caller]

Yeah, very much so.

[Esther Perel]

And I allowed it, I welcomed it. I scared myself, I scared her. Or none of the above.

[Caller]

No, no, because I started dating and I was still a virgin before I started dating. And that was at 26. I started dating and I met several wonderful girls, but none of them worked out. And I think I met around seven or eight girls that I dated at a couple of times. Most of them some a little more, some a little less. And then I met my ex girlfriend and I was also so desperately looking for a relationship which wasn't healthy, but I had no experience whatsoever. So I was just like, like a fish looking for, for food in the open ocean without any food. And then I met her and she.

[Esther Perel]

Hold on, hold on. I was like a fish looking for food in an open ocean where there was no food. That is quite an image. Describe it for me.

[Caller]

Yeah, so there were a couple of dates back then that I attached the first one actually, which also felt quite wonderful. After like the second date we. We kissed and after a couple of more dates we ended up in bed. And that was my first time in that sense. I had experimented way before that time when I was younger, but it had nothing to do with love. So that was the real first time. And I got so attached for you.

[Esther Perel]

Slow down, slow down, slow down. You're telling me so many things and so many important things. Is it okay if we slow down?

[Caller]

Of course, yeah. Yeah, if you can help me with that.

[Esther Perel]

So let's take a deep breath, first of all, just to bring a different rhythm inside your body. So this was your first. Maybe not your first sexual experience, but your first partnered experience that involved love?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So you were a virgin, you were not a virgin?

[Caller]

I was a virgin. It was not my first sexual experience, but I was still a virgin.

[Esther Perel]

And how was that for you? Was she or she had more experience than you?

[Caller]

No, she. I believe she came out of a relationship of eight years. So she had quite a lot of experience. And I was quite open about the fact that I didn't have any experience. And that first time was both beautiful. A little awkward and a little. A little forced almost on my end.

[Esther Perel]

Meaning I didn't really want to, but I thought I should. Meaning what?

[Caller]

No, no, I wanted to, but the fourth bit is actually with a problem that I discovered. And I didn't really know that it was a. A larger issue until then, but it was that I had great trouble getting to an orgasm, and that was my first time. So I didn't think too much of it, but I almost. Like in my head, I had that picture of. It must happen like it is supposed to happen, like I'm a man, Like. So it was. Yeah, it was in that sense, forced in my own. In my own mind.

[Esther Perel]

And I felt that I was taking long in or achieving an orgasm or.

[Caller]

In ejaculating in, I think achieving an orgasm.

[Esther Perel]

They're not the same. You knew?

[Caller]

No, no. Yeah. Okay.

[Esther Perel]

And you experienced that how? You were surprised, you were curious, you were anxious, you were worried, you were. What did that represent, if anything?

[Caller]

I think I was somewhat worried that it would not happen before. Not so. No, not before, because I didn't have the experience to really know until then. And there came a point while we were intimate, me and that first girl that I dated back then. And. And she came to a point where she said, like, you don't have to orgasm, per se. Like we don't have to force anything. And rationally that made complete sense. But emotionally, I was like, I'm not sure if I really felt like a failure, but I felt like yeah, but it should happen, right? Like why? Why can't it happen? And that made it forced. And in the end, I'm not even sure if it happened anymore or if it happened. I did it myself. And I came to know after other girls that I dated that that was a larger issue. I think it's mostly caused by stress or performance anxiety or however you want to call it, something along those lines.

[Esther Perel]

What do you call it?

[Caller]

I think I would call it. Yeah, there's a beautiful Dutch word for it. I'm not sure if you know the English translation, fear of failure. Fear of failure, Yeah, I think that's maybe one of the key factors there. I would call it fear of failure to perform. And what I noticed when I eventually met my ex girlfriend, I had that same issue. And initially, the first time we were intimate, she was somewhat shocked that I tried to finish myself, because I can imagine you don't encounter men with this issue every day. Like, there are most likely other men that have similar issues. There are men that have issues with coming too soon. But she was quite surprised and we talked about that. And I explained that I've never been able to come from penetration before. And then we started working on that and I stopped masturbating. And after a month, she was able to let me come. And then things improved and we were able to. Or I was able to come during penetration. And I think part of that was the fact that we fell in love so quickly, almost unhealthy quickly, that I was on cloud nine. Basically, I was out of this world. Like, I just switched to a new job, I found my first girlfriend. Back then we were not official, but things were going really great. So I just. I was elevated by that feeling.

[Esther Perel]

There's nothing wrong with that. No, I know, I know there's nothing wrong with that. That's why we call it falling in love. We don't call it, you know, climbing step by step.

[Caller]

No.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, tell me something. Just on this issue itself, you had experience with orgasm and ejaculation, but primarily through masturbation.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And you basically have learned how to let go with yourself, but not with a partner. Until then, there are trust issues involved, there are control issues involved, and there are basically consequences of bad habituation. When you spend many years primarily masturbating, you develop a certain habit of pressure, friction, speed, you name it, and it becomes exactly the default. Yeah. Tailor made as you exactly like it. And you don't have to tamper with anyone else and you don't have to synchronize and you don't have to learn how to stay connected to your own pleasure, to your own sensations, while at the same time staying connected with the other person. But it sounds like you were able to create that together, both of you.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. And you were on cloud nine because it's a beautiful feeling. And you had a new job and a new girlfriend and a very elated experience of nascent love. And so far, so good. So when does it start to turn that you say, I miss the woman, I don't miss the relationship, or I missed the beginning, I don't miss what followed.

[Caller]

Yeah. So I think that the relationship itself became quite difficult early on.

[Esther Perel]

Difficult means what?

[Caller]

Yeah, my ex girlfriend, two months prior to us meeting for the first time, came out of a. What you would call a situationship. I think that lasted, I'm not sure how long exactly, but four to five, maybe six months, which was also quite hard on her and, yeah, was quite toxic for as far as I have heard her stories. And I think that she, from the very start, was very scared of me leaving very early on. And after a couple of dates with my ex girlfriend, she sent me a screenshot, I believe, of her deleting her Tinder account. We met through Tinder and I sent a screen recording of me deleting my dating apps, but I had paid for Tinder Platinum for six months and I still had three months remaining. So I deleted the apps, but I didn't delete the account. And she was quite surprised to hear that after the next date and asked me, like, why do you need a backup? Why do you need to keep your account as a backup? And I was like, well, we have only met a couple of times and I really enjoyed spending time with you, but I have no clue how this will go. So under some pressure, I also deleted the account because I did feel all the excitement of the connection that I had with her. So that was the first little kind of discussion. It was not really a fight. Like, I. I can also voice my opinion as well. So I voiced my opinion. I was like, well, I don't need a backup, but it's just because I paid for six months and that's expensive, so who knows what happens here? I will not use it. But I think that she didn't really trust me not using it because of previous experiences. She had quite a few relationships and dates, and many of them had their own issues. Like many relationships that Phil have. I realized that, of course.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me if I hear you. Well, when we met, there was a lot of beautiful elixir between us, but also very quickly, did we bring to each other anxieties, insecurities, vulnerabilities, fear of abandonment, fear of lack of attention, fear of neglect. Yeah, that kind of pre existed, even meeting. We brought them in the suitcase, and we opened the suitcase right in front of the other and said, help me.

[Caller]

You could say that.

[Esther Perel]

Save me, cure me. Take all these bad feelings away from me. And both of you did so.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What did you learn about yourself, and what did you discover, since you're the one who I'm talking to? What did you discover about what you missed, what you wanted, what you needed, what you hadn't had? Yeah, let's start with that.

[Caller]

I think a couple of things that stood out to me pretty early on that at the moment or at that moment, I didn't fully comprehend yet. But after a couple of months, I started to slowly understand that the lack of affection that I lacked, I think in childhood as well, but also in my adolescence and growing up and becoming a teenager and my early 20s. The affection that I received from her matched the affection that suited my inner child. To say it like that, that suited my mental being.

[Esther Perel]

It was the ocean with nutrients.

[Caller]

Yeah, that was the ocean with nutrients, exactly. And also our conversations, which could both go very in depth about our insecurities and our, like, our past and things that I've missed and that she missed in previous partners or also in childhood and sharing those experiences. But also the feeling of that, primarily for me, was so profound. The feeling of feeling so safe with someone else, to open up and be completely vulnerable and to feel like you're. Or to feel myself like I was finally completely myself, if that makes sense. And when I, like, that relationship got so difficult so quick, but there almost was no hair on my head thinking that I would ever let that feeling go. There was one time that I also considered ending it because it cost me, like, all of my energy, basically. And still I couldn't do it. Still, I could not break that relationship because of. I think because of the feelings of loss that I would have to endure for the affection that I would lose, the emotional intimacy that I would lose.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Quince. Fall is in full swing, which means that it's the perfect time to refresh your wardrobe with pieces that will look great on all of your autumn outings. This season, Quince is offering elevated essentials like 100% Mongolian cashmere from $50, washable silk tops and skirts and perfectly tailored denim, all at prices that feel too good to be true. I've tried some Queen's items myself, like the Mongolian Cashmere wrap. When the temperature drops in New York City, I like having versatile pieces that are elegant and cozy. And the Mongolian Cashmere wrap is just that. It's the perfect accessory to throw on and complete my look. And the price is unbeatable. You can keep it classic and cozy this fall with long lasting staples from Queen's. Go to queens.com begin for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com begin to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Queens.com begin support for the show comes from Paramount. Now streaming on Paramount. Hunted by hackers, stalked by assassins and wanted by international police, Tony and Ziva are on the run and getting some action. Car chases, killer drones, prison breaks. Good thing espionage is their love language. Get ready for the ultimate romantic escape with the premiere of NCIS Tony and Ziva now streaming on Paramount.

[Caller]

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download today.

[Esther Perel]

How did it end? Just to get a sense of the full circle. How did it end?

[Caller]

So it officially ended January of last year and it ended there was no at that point, no particular event that caused a breakup. But I think and I had seen that like throughout the relationship that my ex girlfriend also had to deal with a lot of internal emotions around the relationship as well. I think those were both a combination of the relationship itself and the past experiences that she had. And she it was right around Christmas 2023 and she we were heading to her parents actually and this is just one of the more clearer bits that I remember and she discussed with me that she thought that we should like end this after Christmas and that we should just do Christmas for our parents because of everything they have they had organized. We should just do that and after that call it quits. And that was not the first time. We broke up for a week earlier that year.

[Esther Perel]

But you would break up because what, what would create the Cycle. I understand that you try to break up a few times and you would come back or she would come back. So what was the circle? You know, when you say it became bad quick, I mean, you're very clear it became bad quick. But I just couldn't bear the thought of losing the physical affection, the connection, the emotional intimacy. Even though it was becoming more and more fraught and I could rely on it less and less. I was holding onto what it once had been and what I now it could be possible and what I wanted to find my way back to. But that's not how it happened. So if you gave me. When you say that Christmas stands out, why this thought wind should end, that was part of the conversation. Every time there was an issue, one of you would say, this will never work, or something happened that said, this is fraud, this is not possible. And just be as concrete as can be. I mean, I know I'm fishing with a broad net and I'm.

[Caller]

I understand. Yeah. So in the beginning of the relationship, when we would face difficulties, we would both get into discussions that would end in dynamics such as she would expect things of me that I felt like I couldn't give to her at that point, more time together. While the relationship was already quite difficult in the beginning, I was quite avoidant, I would say somewhat avoidant in the beginning, primarily. And she was quite anxious, so she would need more closeness. I would pull back a little because the relationship got sour points or sour bits quite quickly. I still loved her dearly and I didn't want to lose the connection, but. But I felt like I needed a little bit of space to get my head back on my. On my body. And that would mean that she would think that I was just putting away and like, that the relationship didn't matter to me or not as much as it mattered to her back then. And that dynamic changed over time. Like at the second part, let's say, like the second half of our relationship, I wouldn't enter that dynamic anymore. I would just like, hear. Try to hear her points. Because I also felt unheard at many occasions when I tried to voice my perspective and I saw that her emotions were quite serious and she could get really emotional. And that's also something that she was very honest about from the very start, that she could get very emotional in both positive and negative ways. And I just tried to deal the second half of the relationship. I tried to deal with the turmoil of the. Of the relationship, basically.

[Esther Perel]

And do what? And do what?

[Caller]

So, for example, the fact that I Made an onlyfence account long ago, which I had used long ago and which I still had. Did not use in the relationship. But she asked me in the middle of the night, I believe we were going to bed late that night, and she. She asked me whether or not I have an ondefence account. I'm not sure how she came to that, but I think she was also looking for reasons. And this is also where my intimacy issue comes into play, which also made her insecure about me maybe being with another woman, having somebody else on my mind. I think that that plays into why she was thinking things like that, like, is there something else going on here that I don't know? And she asked that and I told her, well, I still have an account, but I have not used it ever since. And also not when I was dating, I believe. And she was quite shocked by that and the fact that I didn't tell her. And then she wanted to look at my phone. And I would become quite defensive because I was like, why don't you trust me? Because we've had trust issues before. So I felt not seen before. There was also an instance where we were intimate together and she found a hair around my genitalia and she was convinced that it was somebody else's. And I think this also comes into an insecurity bit about our intimacy being so hot and cold as well, because we developed. I'm going all over the place, so if you want to intervene, let me know.

[Esther Perel]

I will. How did you know?

[Caller]

Yeah, because I know when I start to explain this that I go all over the place. But.

[Esther Perel]

But you get lost a little bit. You get lost and you create a kind of a distance between you and the emotions. So you're telling me there were trust issues from the start, that you may not have done big things, but you did just enough to elicit her worry and her distrust and her suspicion. And then she would do just enough to instigate your distancing. You're not being emotionally available, as you had well learned. And so quite early on, each of you set the other one up in their most vulnerable parts. You withdraw. She gets suspicious and agitated. What was the presence? Were there other women involved? Was there porn involved? Was there anything to play around all of this?

[Caller]

I had a couple of dates before my ex girlfriend, and I still had a couple on my Instagram followers list, and I followed them, but they were not at on my mind at all anymore. Like, I might think of them occasionally, but not in a romantic sense or anything like that. I watched porn back in the. Back in the days before I started dating and while I was dating, I.

[Esther Perel]

Every once in a while or daily.

[Caller]

Activities before I started dating, I think I watched almost daily with periods of maybe a week of no watching, and then a week of each. Each day of the week and then maybe every other day. So that fluctuated a little, but quite frequently.

[Esther Perel]

And how did it end? I asked you that before, but I don't think we got to the answer.

[Caller]

The relationship.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I mean, how did it. There is the beginning of a series of endings, and then there is the final ending, so to speak. And then there is the ending inside that hasn't happened.

[Caller]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So there are three endings here.

[Caller]

Yeah. The real ending of the relationship, I would say we officially broke up in January of 2024. And then we tried. I called her maybe three or four times each week. Once after the relationship ended, and she was quite. That she did not want to continue. And I just kept overanalyzing the end of the relationship. And after I called her that fourth time, we ended that conversation, that. Which also lasted a couple of hours, I believe. And a couple of days later, she asked me to visit her and to talk. And she wanted to see and try if he could fix things. Last time. One last time. So we tried that from, like, February of 2024 until a little bit into March of that year, and then it finally really ended, I would say.

[Esther Perel]

May I stop you?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

One thing I'm hearing you say is I grew up in a very detached way with people that were kind and loving, but not particularly expressive or emotionally attuned. And part of what I think you're telling me is when I start to feel. It's like opening a faucet at maximum capacity on the spot. I don't open the faucet a little bit and then increase the stream. I open it right to the maximum, and the first feeling becomes a watershed, instantly leading to obsession.

[Caller]

Yeah, I think there's some truth to that, at least, because what I tried to say earlier, that first girl that I dated, I noticed that I very quickly developed a lot of feelings for her. And I was quite aware of that as well. So I had that rational part of my brain saying, this does not make sense. I know that you're head over heels right now, but this is reality, and this is just the first girl that you dated. So get your head back on. This is most likely not real. And it ended up not being real. And it took a couple of weeks, and I was somewhat sad about that. And then I continued dating and I moved on.

[Esther Perel]

But it's very, it is very real. The feelings are very real.

[Caller]

Oh yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Maybe what you'd say is, I just met this person, on what basis am I already imagining a whole life, etc. But the feelings are very real and there is no filter. It's very interesting, the gap between how you emotionally rush into something. Flood it, flood yourself. Try to hold back with reason, but don't succeed one iota. Go at full speed. And then sexually you practice in some way delayed gratification. You hold in, you hold in, you hold in with the person. It's the exact opposite from what happens to you emotionally. In one place you're like gushing out and in the other one you're holding, holding, holding. And only alone, under complete supervision and control of your own hand, can you let go and wonder if you've ever thought about that. The gap between the emotional gush and the sexual withholding.

[Caller]

I don't think so, actually. Not in that way, but it makes complete sense.

[Esther Perel]

Sit with this for a minute. You don't have to answer me right here, but just let this land and tell me if. What, how.

[Caller]

I think that the thing you just described as. Well, with my. As soon as I get the chance almost or feel safe enough of my like emotion gushing out and like just becoming a waterfall, basically, that sense of safety that I feel at that moment feels so, or for me so rare that I think the fact that I, that I have the problem with getting to an orgasm is more or less, or maybe even harder of a. Of a. Of a hurdle to overcome. I think those two are interconnected as well. Because as soon as I felt more and more comfortable with my ex girlfriend, I noticed and I knew that from the very start that it was most likely something that happens in my head.

[Esther Perel]

So the more unfiltered, or what you may call out of control, I don't think it's about that. But the more, the bigger the emotional watershed, the bigger the sexual restraint, I think. So maybe you're controlling one with the other.

[Caller]

Do you mean that the bigger the emotional connection almost the harder the. Is that what you mean?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, but I'm not just talking about the quality of the connection. I'm also talking about the fact that you feel completely taken over and like it's an obsession. Now, falling in love is an obsession. It has all the features of an obsession, an addiction. Yeah, but it's a qualitative connection resemblance. And so part of what happens is that after that we start to ground ourselves a little bit, you know, terra firma. Let me put my feet and ground myself so that I am not like a leaf that can be blown in every direction at any moment by anything the other person says, does or doesn't. And because we have a regulatory system inside of us, sometimes our mind regulates our body and sometimes our body regulates our mind. I mean, they go back and forth in a very interdependent way with each other. But I'm just noticing the contrast between the flooding of the emotional and the restraining of the sexual.

[Caller]

I think that's one part of the question deeper in me is how to gain control over both the emotion and my body as well and get those two imbalance. I think that I'm cool.

[Esther Perel]

It's not about gaining control. It's about not losing the connection with yourself while you are experiencing an intense connection with someone else. It's about staying grounded. If you stood now with me in the office, I would ask you to stand and I would come and I would just push against you and you would actually resist by staying steady while at the same time welcoming the push rather than falling backwards because it feels so unstable, so chaotic. So without structure. No, we have always a structure and a loose movement. We go back and forth between structure and spontaneity, between what happens and what is built and what you experience is it becomes all happens and the build gets lost and that gets scary.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Producer]

We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astera's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

[Advertiser]

Lets be honest. Are you happy with your job? Like really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place. But still we stick it out and we give reasons, like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place, and maybe the most common one. Isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry Me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be. Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence, and keeps you accountable along the way. So don't leave your career to chance. Take action and own your future with a professional coach in your corner. Go to Strawberry Me Unstuck to claim a special offer. That's Strawberry Me Unstuck. Support for the show comes from Mercury what if banking did more? Because to you, it's more than an invoice. It's your hard work becoming revenue. It's more than a wire, it's payroll for your team. It's more than a deposit, it's landing your fundraise. The truth is, banking can do more. Mercury brings all the ways you use money into a single product that feels extraordinary to use. Visit mercury.com to join over 200,000 entrepreneurs who use Mercury Mercury to do more for their business. Mercury Banking that does more.

[Narrator/Producer]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail].

[Esther Perel]

So you end your relationship because I'm going back to your original question and you say it wasn't really good. What happened there. I don't exactly understand why you call it so toxic and negative and hard. But at the same time when you say I can't get over it means what? I look for her in every other woman. I keep remembering the good and I forget where we landed and where we ended. I can't accept the failure. What are we holding on to?

[Caller]

I always felt I also had some self esteem issues like I had severe acne in the past which also left scarring on my chest and my back and that played a huge role in why I always pushed women away romantically until there came a point where I had a child wish and I hope to start a family one day and find a partner and hopefully for long term. So I had to push through my own insecurities and started dating. And each time I met a new girl things improved in that sense. And after six months of dating and finding my ex girlfriend I felt so exhausted and it almost felt like the coming of Jesus that I found that girl and that we had such great chemistry. It felt like and we did at the time that I now am so afraid. Well I know that I can find love again. It's not that I rationally don't know that, but emotionally my Emotions just continue, like, continue to end up with her in my mind. So I keep holding on to the things that we have and thinking about how difficult it might be to find that elsewhere. Forgetting the fact rationally, I know, but forgetting the fact that it might be way more healthy than the relationship that I had with my ex. And I understand that that relationship was so complex that you maybe don't. It's hard to get a grasp of what exactly that toxicity means. But I also don't want to throw her under the bus. And I made mistakes, she made mistakes. We both have experiences that we carried over and carried into a relationship. And now for me, the most difficult part and the thing that I struggle with the most is the fact that I feel inadequate, that I feel that I'm also scared about how hard it can be to find a woman that is willing to accept me for who I am. And the right person will accept that, of course, but accept me for who I am and the struggles that I have with intimacy, because I love to be intimate, and I love the body of a woman that I love. But with that, I can completely understand that for many women, that can be a great obstacle. That's something that plays in my mind as well, like how I. Overcoming the fact that I need to start dating again. I hope to find someone who accepts that and is willing to discover that with me, which is also a beautiful thing, actually.

[Esther Perel]

I agree. I agree, but. And no but.

[Caller]

And.

[Esther Perel]

This may not be a watershed. This one may start very differently. Love stories, I was just thinking they're like pieces of music.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

They start in a different key, with a different rhythm, with a different volume, with a different introduction. You've known one? Yeah, it's the first one. It's a very, very important one. But it's not by definition the one that shapes everything that follow.

[Caller]

No, you know, I know that.

[Esther Perel]

So the next encounter may be much slower. The next encounter, you may basically say, hey, I want to tell you something about me. Sexually and emotionally. It changes as we get more connected. But at first, I have enjoyed pleasing you more than anything. But it may not be in this one predictable, heteronormative way that we are all taught is the neck plus ultra. And to actually, instead of hoping it doesn't happen and trying to hide it, you actually put it right up there as something about you that you know, and that changes with time. It's the same in reverse. When a man has rapid ejaculation, they sometimes need to say, you know, I need to get really comfortable and things change. But sometimes at first, I get a little, you know, ahead of myself, and I don't really stay grounded enough in my own body. Yeah, I think that just talking about it as a performance anxiety misses the boat. That's kind of, you know, adhering to a whole set of male competencies that you need to be able to perform. Performing is much less important than the pleasing. Please them and you'll perform perfectly fine. Doesn't matter what you do. And put the focus not on can I perform and can I be adequate and can I be competent, and will my body betray me? And will I, you know, not be able to control this and will my way into orgasm? That in itself usually kind of makes it worse. So less performance, more pleasing. But also different love stories, different musical introductions, different rhythm, different ambiance, and therefore different lyrics, different words, different story. And anybody will talk about, you know, what have you learned from your relationship history? That's a beautiful question one can ask you. What's a mistake you hope you won't make again? What's something that you would like to do that you didn't do last time or be more than do? And as you grow older, everybody will come with more stories, and you will come with more stories, and that will become your relationship resume. The one that you don't bring to work, that doesn't talk about all the jobs you've had, but the one that determines so much about how you live.

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So you asked me, how do I get over my first relationship? And I don't know that that's exactly what we did. But tell me, since we arrive at the end, what is this conversation like for you?

[Caller]

Very, I would say, almost refreshing, in a sense, what I get out of this talk right now. Right. I think perspective most of all. How you just explained how the issue that I have around my sexuality, how that can actually also bring depth to my, like, my personality. And bringing my personality and that depth to a new partner. So that's also something along the lines of the insecurities that I have around the scars that my. That the acne left. That's also something that I almost started to wear as a trophy is like, yeah, but this is me, so take it or leave it.

[Esther Perel]

No, this is not me. This is me at this particular moment of my life with you in this situation. You're not static. You're not unchangeable, and you're just learning. You're learning a whole new realm of experience.

[Caller]

Definitely.

[Esther Perel]

So that sentence of, you take me as I am, take it or leave it. You accept me because this is it. This is me. Ain't gonna help you. That doesn't mean you find someone who constantly criticizes you. But you don't put yourself into a box. And I'm saying this in very short way because we have to stop. But don't put yourself into a box. Let yourself grow. Let yourself process, let yourself learn. Let yourself make bad mistakes or simply mistakes for that matter, or choices that you don't think lead anywhere. Be a good friend to yourself in that sense. Speak to yourself the way you would speak if a friend was doing the same thing.

[Caller]

Yeah. That's also something that I've quite a lot of work on. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So it's not one thing. It's developmental meaning it's. It's history of life, story of life. And I'm just gonna put three dots at the end of the sentence because we won't be able to put a nice bow here.

[Caller]

No, no, no. I've learned a lot over the last year and I still do. And there are many times that I feel actually so alive because of this heartbreak as well.

[Esther Perel]

Maybe sounds a little weird, but in pain, but alive. These two go very much together as well. Thank you so much.

[Caller]

Thank you too.

[Narrator/Producer]

This was an Esther calling a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cuts. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller and Julia Natt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

[Esther Perel]

Limu.

[Caller]

Gamu and Doug Limu. And I always tell you to customize.

[Esther Perel]

Your car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.

[Caller]

But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music.

[Esther Perel]

Limu.

[Advertiser]

Save yourself money today.

[Caller]

Increase your wealth. Customize and save.

[Advertiser]

We save.

[Caller]

That may have been too much feeling. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty.

[Esther Perel]

Liberty.

[Caller]

Liberty Savings Ferry unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts.