Finding Love Would Mean Letting Go of Who I Am

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Finding Love Would Mean Letting Go of Who I Am"
Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Released: November 4, 2024

---

Introduction

In the poignant episode titled "Finding Love Would Mean Letting Go of Who I Am," renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel delves into the intricate and often painful intersections of faith, cultural identity, and sexuality. This episode features a heartfelt conversation with a gay Muslim man struggling to reconcile his deep-rooted religious and cultural values with his authentic self and desire for romantic love. Through this intimate dialogue, listeners gain profound insights into the challenges faced by individuals navigating multiple, sometimes conflicting, aspects of their identity.

---

Guest Background

The guest, a gay Muslim man, introduces himself as someone who feels perpetually at odds with the societal and familial expectations placed upon him. He describes his existence as being "sitting on a fault line" ([01:49]), highlighting the precarious balance he attempts to maintain between his faith, cultural heritage, and sexual orientation. His narrative sets the stage for a deep exploration of identity conflicts that many individuals from minority backgrounds may experience.

---

Core Struggles in Finding a Compatible Partner

At the heart of the guest's struggle is the difficulty in finding a romantic partner who aligns with his stringent values of chastity until marriage, within the confines of a traditional Muslim framework. He articulates this conflict vividly:

“I'm a gay Muslim man with a deep rooted connection to my culture, traditions and Arab legacy. I value my religion, I practice my faith regularly. ... I want a court within the confines of a more modest and traditional approach, one that emphasizes chastity till marriage." ([01:49])

He further expresses the exhaustion of living between the extremes of secularism and religious homophobia, feeling as though he's "caught in a hurricane on an uncharted island" ([03:51]). This vividly captures the relentless turmoil he experiences in his quest for love that does not require him to forsake his identity or values.

---

Emotional Impact: Isolation and Loneliness

The guest opens up about the emotional toll of his predicament, describing profound feelings of isolation and loneliness. He states:

"I'm feeling very lonely. I don't feel like I have any anchor. I don't feel like I truly belong anywhere. I'm just in isolation." ([10:52])

This sentiment underscores the internal conflict between his yearning for genuine connection and the societal constraints that prevent him from pursuing such relationships openly.

---

Relationship with Parents and Community Expectations

A significant portion of the conversation revolves around the guest's relationship with his parents, particularly his father, who serves as an Imam in their local Muslim community. Upon coming out, the guest faced a negative response, with his father stating:

"...being gay is not a sin, but having a gay life would be, meaning finding a partner in any way would be the sinful part." ([07:26])

This declaration created an incredibly strained relationship, forcing the guest to navigate his identity amid familial disapproval and religious obligations. The absence of supportive dialogues with his family exacerbates his sense of isolation, leaving him with limited avenues for emotional support.

---

Trauma from Childhood Sexual Assault

The guest reveals a traumatic past involving childhood sexual assault, which has profoundly impacted his relationship with his parents and his self-perception:

"When you talked about the intensity at which I want to adhere to my values, ... when we were talking about me wanting to really kind of prove the religiosity and adhere strictly, that did come up for me in my head and how we kind of talked about having a pure love, I do feel like part of it is probably related." ([47:48])

This trauma adds another layer to his struggle, as his parents attempt to link his sexual orientation to his past abuse, further complicating his path towards self-acceptance and healing.

---

Internal Conflict: Duty vs. Authenticity

Throughout the session, the guest grapples with the dichotomy between duty to his family and authenticity. He articulates a poignant realization:

"If I hold on to me, I lose you, and if I hold on to you, I lose me." ([28:58])

This statement encapsulates the heart-wrenching choice he feels forced to make between maintaining familial and religious honor and embracing his true self. The conversation delves into how his cultural and religious identity demands self-sacrifice, leading to an intrinsic conflict that affects his mental and emotional well-being.

---

Imagining Compromise and Its Discontents

The guest contemplates the possibility of a compromise, such as marrying a woman while identifying as a gay man. He shares:

"I have thought of that in the past and I think that that can be done much easier than I even think. ... But I'm still. I'm too much of a romantic." ([39:21])

However, he quickly dismisses this as an unsatisfactory solution, feeling that such a compromise would require lying and compromising his romantic ideals, ultimately leaving him feeling dishonored and conflicted.

---

Impact of Cultural and Religious Expectations on Mental Health

The guest’s struggle highlights the mental health implications of navigating such a complex identity landscape. Esther Perel prompts him to reflect on the "censorship bureau" within himself—a metaphor for the internalized pressures to conform:

"I have different departments inside of me. I have the imaginative department, but I also have the censorship bureau." ([44:02])

This internal mechanism serves both to protect him from societal backlash and restrict his ability to form meaningful relationships, illustrating the psychological toll of living between two conflicting worlds.

---

Conclusion: A Call for Compassion and Understanding

The session culminates in a mutual recognition of the guest's profound inner turmoil and the external pressures threatening his sense of self. Esther Perel offers:

"Am I hearing you? So maybe this is not about, am I religious enough? ... But what I want to know is that I'm whole and I'm not broken." ([50:06])

This encapsulates the essential human desire for wholeness and self-acceptance, beyond the confines of cultural and religious expectations. The conversation leaves listeners with a deep appreciation for the complexity of identity and the urgent need for compassionate dialogue in addressing such multifaceted struggles.

---

Notable Quotes

• Isolation and Exhaustion:
  “It's been exhausting to exist in. It feels like I'm caught in a hurricane on an uncharted island with no one but myself to weather that storm.” ([03:51])

• Family Relationship:
  “He made it clear that he didn't want anything to do with me if I ever came out publicly.” ([07:26])

• Loneliness:
  "I'm feeling very lonely. I don't feel like I have any anchor. I don't feel like I truly belong anywhere. I'm just in isolation." ([10:52])

• Sacrifices for Family:
  "I do feel like I've made a lot of sacrifices for my family that are completely unseen but silently expected." ([34:32])

• Internal Conflict:
  "If I hold on to me, I lose you, and if I hold on to you, I lose me." ([28:58])

• Censorship Bureau Metaphor:
  "I have different departments inside of me. I have the imaginative department, but I also have the censorship bureau." ([44:02])

• Striving for Wholeness:
  "What I want to know is that I'm whole and I'm not broken." ([50:06])

---

This episode of Where Should We Begin? serves as a powerful exploration of the complex interplay between faith, culture, and personal identity. Through Esther Perel's empathetic and incisive questioning, listeners are invited to deeply understand the emotional and psychological challenges faced by individuals who, like the guest, strive to honor their heritage while yearning to live authentically.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

Many times I say you should have a conversation about that. Have you spoken to this person about this? And what stands out is how difficult some conversations feel. There is such charge around them. There's a sense that they will derail, that they will unleash anger, that they will be filled with misunderstandings, with assumptions. And as we are going into the holiday season and we're going to be with a lot of close family members and friends and loved ones and people with whom we have agreements and disagreements about a lot of issues, this question about how we have difficult conversations, I want to explore it with you. I want to have a series of sessions, each one looking at a difficult conversation. And so I hope that on the podcast we can have some of these conversations that we can't have at the dinner table or that we've been wanting or imagining or fantasizing. So some of these conversations can almost serve to you as roleplay. Let's try it out in this imaginary sphere, in this virtual space called the Where Should We Begin? Podcast and see where they take us and then see if they can be transferred in real life. In this following session, we discuss sexual assault.

[Guest 1]

And I want you to know this before you listen. Hello, Esther.

[Guest 2]

I'd love to have a conversation with you about the intersectionality of culture, faith, community, sex, sexuality, fantasy and romanticization. My very existence feels as though I'm sitting on a fault line, and it feels like staying atop it means that there is the threat of it crumbling at any given moment. I'm a gay Muslim man with a deep rooted connection to my culture, traditions and Arab legacy. I value my religion, I practice my faith regularly. I feel spiritually connected to God, and I align my life to the values embedded in my faith. The gay element within religion is a tale as old as time. But my main point of contention isn't necessarily in accepting myself within the faith, but rather in finding a suitable partner for myself when I not only want a man of God, but I also want a court within the confines of a more modest and traditional approach, one that emphasizes chast until marriage. The polar opposites of extreme secularism in the U.S. in the U.S. gay community specifically, and extreme homophobia within the Muslim American community. It's been exhausting to exist in. It feels like I'm caught in a hurricane on an uncharted island with no one but myself to weather that storm. I wonder sometimes what the point is to keep weathering if there's no visible population to even fight for. And romance seems like the only source of depression for me. In my life and it's sent me to dark places and having ideas of my fantasy partners is really what keeps me going and praying for that final.

[Guest 3]

Piece of the puzzle.

[Guest 2]

I want to get out of my head and into reality where where perhaps my partner does exist. And I'd love to have that conversation with you.

[Esther Perel]

Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Autograph Collection Hotels Autograph Collection hotels offer over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Hand selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences, from medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the [e-mail] Support for Where Should.

[Guest 1]

We Begin comes from Saks.com it's not.

[Esther Perel]

Always easy to find the right gift for someone, but it feels really special when you do get it right. Saks.com has a holiday gift guide that can make it all easy. You can surprise your sister with a Chloe bracelet bag or your partner with a new scent from Gucci. You can even warm up your home with some new decor or warm up yourself with a new scarf from Totem. You can start making the holidays special with a handpicked guide from Saks.com.

[Guest 1]

So here we are to have this conversation.

[Guest 3]

Here we are.

[Guest 1]

Anything you want to add? Change?

[Guest 3]

No. I think those are pretty much the main pinpoints for me that I want to really understand and address.

[Guest 1]

So put one forth as a starting point for today.

[Guest 3]

Let's start with finding a romantic partner that has similar beliefs to me or.

[Guest 1]

That aligns and that aligns in wanting chastity till marriage, has a profound belief in God, is Muslim preferably.

[Guest 3]

Yes.

[Guest 1]

And is open about it.

[Guest 3]

Yes, absolutely.

[Guest 1]

Are you out?

[Guest 3]

Yes, I am out. I want somebody who's also out to.

[Guest 1]

Their family as well.

[Guest 3]

Right? I am out to my friends and family. Not too many people in my religious community and not to the elders, but my family knows, my friends know and you know, co workers, you know, anyone who knows me knows your imam. But any. Well, my imam is actually my dad. So he's one of the imams in our local Muslim community. So it was a little challenging when I was trying to to navigate that growing up. So yeah, we're the imam's children.

[Guest 1]

Okay, well, he's your dad, he's your imam and he's your guide and teacher. What has he said? Because far from me to compete with.

[Guest 3]

The imam, you know, his Response has been interesting. I would say overall it's negative. So his main belief is that being gay is not a sin, but having a gay life would be, meaning finding a partner in any way would be the sinful part. He made it clear that he didn't want anything to do with me if I ever came out publicly. It was the same with my mom. I wouldn't say they were violent about it. They did try to approach it with some compassion and they were like, hey, you know, we want the best for you and the best would be to never say anything. So I would say overall negative. But I'm still really glad that I told them and they know.

[Guest 1]

So your question or your bind, as I just heard it, is not about how do I meet another man of faith, Muslim, chaste, etc. But that if I was to meet that man, I would lose my father. That's a different bind.

[Guest 3]

Right?

[Guest 1]

Right. What?

[Guest 3]

It's not as, I guess, simple as I thought. No, I never, I never felt like that was. It was that specifically, but I'm seeing kind of how they connect now.

[Guest 1]

You're feeling it.

[Guest 3]

Yeah. When you said, when you finished your sentence, I felt a heaviness in my stomach.

[Guest 1]

I saw that even through the screen. Yeah. And I even had a wicked thought that in a crazy way, you're blessed not to find your romantic partner upon whom you've put impossible demands. He needs to be out, but he needs to be chased and he needs to be of deep faith and, and, and, and, and it's set up in such a way that you want. It's almost impossible to meet him, but it's a blessing that you don't meet him, because as long as you don't meet him, you don't lose your dad and maybe your mom. This is maybe less a romantic struggle than a loyalty point. And you don't want to lose your dad who loves you deeply and whom you love deeply. But he can't for the life of himself begin to imagine that he has a gay son in living a gay life. So you are doing exactly what he said. I don't mind you being gay, but you can't live a gay lifestyle. That's what you're doing, Right. On the one hand, you're holding on to him, and on the other hand you're feeling what on the inside?

[Guest 3]

I'm feeling very lonely. I don't feel like I have any anchor. I don't feel like I truly belong anywhere. I'm just in isolation. That's really what it feels like. You know, to be able to exist in all of these worlds is on my own with no one around me. It feels. It's really sad. It's turbulent, but it's also sad, I feel.

[Guest 1]

And it's lifeless.

[Guest 3]

Oh, absolutely. That's a great word for it. It does feel lifeless.

[Guest 1]

And have you had that conversation ever with him, or does he suggest.

[Guest 3]

No, I haven't. You know, we only had that one conversation when I initially told him, and that was when I was in college. That was, I want to say, seven. Seven or so years ago.

[Guest 1]

So that's seven years of lifelessness. Wow. Who is your person in the family or in the community with whom you can talk about this?

[Guest 3]

Anyone in my family. No.

[Guest 1]

Do you know any others?

[Guest 3]

I have here and there. I do have one friend in another state.

[Guest 1]

Gay, Muslim.

[Guest 3]

Yes, she is. And I do confide in her a lot, and I try to visit her often, but I don't have anyone that's close by, in proximity or that I can rely on consistently. Yeah, I don't. I don't really. I kind of save everything. I bundle it up until I get to talk to her at some point.

[Guest 1]

It's so isolating. My heart goes out to you. I mean, interestingly, I'm thinking about a film. It's called Trembling Before God. But interestingly, it's about Orthodox, Jewish, queer people, different religion, but not that far.

[Guest 3]

Same God. Same God, sometimes same people, too.

[Guest 1]

And it's an incredible documentary. It's not recent. In a strange way, you will have an experience of community by listening to these multiple people of faith who are all struggling with the silence, the secret, the exclusion, the double life, the shame, the family mournings, etc. Etc. And they all tremble before God. They all know who they are and they all know who they're supposed to be, and it's excruciating. But your dilemma is not about finding somebody, because in an interesting way, your life is set up in a way where you're not meant to find that somebody, because the price you would have to pay is unbearable. And I stand humble before you. It's okay.

[Guest 3]

You know, the. When you said that, the irony about my. My favorite movie growing up was the Little Mermaid, and that's. That's exactly what I thought of. Now.

[Guest 1]

Tell me more.

[Guest 3]

I mean, the price that Ariel had to pay for a life that she wanted was she completely gave up her whole species. I can't fathom doing that in my own life either.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for where should we Begin comes from Shopify. Some say we are living in an attention economy, or maybe we should say an attention deficit economy. That means if you're a business owner, half the battle is getting your product in front of potential customers and the other half of the battle is making it as easy as possible for the customers to actually buy your product. And for that you might want to try Shopify. Shopify is the online commerce platform that makes it easy to buy and sell. According to Shopify, businesses that use their Shop Pay feature see conversions up to 50%, meaning way less cards going abandoned and way more sales going forward. Businesses that sell more sell on Shopify. You can sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com estair all lowercase. You can go to shopify.com estair to upgrade your selling today. That's shopify.com Esther.

[Sponsor]

Support for this show comes from the ACLU. The ACLU knows exactly what threats a second Donald Trump term presents and they are ready with a battle tested playbook. The ACLU took legal action against the first Trump administration 434 times and they will do it again to protect immigrants rights, defend reproductive freedom, safeguard free speech, and fight for all of our fundamental rights and freedoms. Join the ACLU today to help stop the Extreme Project 2025 agenda. Learn more at aclu.org during the holidays, it's easy to get caught up in the hustle and bustle of shopping, hosting and traveling. And let's be honest, prioritizing your health can sometimes fall off your to do list. Well, this is your reminder from Nature's Sunshine that you deserve to stay healthy all winter long. For more than 50 years, nature's sunshine has intentionally crafted supplements and natural products to support your gut health, immune system, metabolism and so much more. Like their convenient chlorophyll stick packs that make it easier than ever to enjoy the daily detox found in chlorophyll. And by the way, this chlorophyll actually tastes good. Lime flavor.

[Guest 1]

Yum.

[Sponsor]

Or their probiotic 11, a unique combination of 11 beneficial gut bacteria or their Colostrum supplement rich in broad based immune enhancers, all made with sustainably sourced ingredients and created in 100% solar powered facilities this holiday season, don't miss out on the best deals of the [e-mail] that's naturesunshine.com to get the best deals of the year. Naturesunshine.com.

[Esther Perel]

We fuss over every single detail of the show we sort through thousands of applicants each year to pick the stories that we share with you. And the conversations that I have with couples start off as three hour sessions and then we thoughtfully edit them to one hour and then go back and listen to then add the notes and sometimes even a critique of the session. It's kind of what is in my head as I listen to the session that I didn't say. In the session. We create original music and sound design to bring the sessions to life. Where should we Begin? Involves a whole team who have been there since the beginning with me to bring my office to you. It's about eight years that we are telling the stories of raw, intimate encounter between people that you are invited to listen in like a fly on the wall. It's an expensive and quite time consuming effort to create where should we begin? And which we gladly undertake because you tell us time and again how valuable these conversations are to you, how they accompany you in critical moments of your life, how you see yourselves even in stories that have nothing to do with yours, and how it has helped you. And that is probably the most affirming thing people can come and tell me. So now we need to ask you for more and for your help. And you can do your part not only by listening, but by joining my office hours subscription on Apple Podcasts. A subscription to where should we Begin? Gives you an ad free version of these sessions and all the Esther callings and more importantly, a way to continue the conversations with me on all the topics that come up in these sessions, from sexlessness to work conflicts to infidelity to secrets to betrayals, all sorts of relational betrayals to ending relationships. And we offer follow ups with the couples because people always ask me, you know, do you see them again? Do you hear from them? Do you know where this session landed? So I go back to the couples and I ask them for a follow up, which they share with us and which I then share with you. And just like our relationships, what you say isn't as important as what you do. So I've heard you say how much you enjoy the program, how much it adds to your understanding of your own relationships. But now it's time for me to do an offer and an ask, which means click on the subscribe button to the where should we begin? Show page. I'd love to see you in Esther's office hours.

[Guest 1]

Have you had any relationships?

[Guest 3]

I have. I have.

[Guest 1]

Men. Women. Them.

[Guest 3]

Men. I've never been with a woman. I have had relationships with men. They tend to be much shorter I would say the longest, probably four or five months. You know, I think a lot of why things end is our lifestyles don't align.

[Guest 1]

Meaning you don't want to have sex.

[Guest 3]

Right. That's. That's the main issue. That usually either somebody is on board at the beginning and then changes their mind, or he thinks he can and then he can't. It's disappointing, I think, because from the straight girlfriends that I have and that are Muslim, their experiences, it's almost like they get rewarded socially and they find somebody who respects it or is also on the same path. And so maybe they wait for a while and then they meet a great guy and then it works out. Whereas on my end, that seems to be a speed bump where I don't even know if that wasn't an issue. I don't know how the relationship could have progressed, which is really disappointing.

[Guest 1]

But you have created a hierarchy. It is worse to have sex with men than to be with men. And as long as I'm not sexual with them, it's not as what?

[Guest 3]

As forbidden?

[Guest 1]

I mean, explain to me how you've organized it inside of you because you have to shuffle many parts.

[Guest 3]

Oh, yes. We've been shuffling for years. So how I'm seeing it is I do value the marriage part. I do want sex to be a spiritual experience that I'm only having with my husband. And I do want to be married. So for me, that's. That's how I. I was raised. That's how I grew up. The expectation was I would do that for my future wife. So just because I happen to be attracted to men, I don't see, I would be disappointed in myself if I strayed from that. You know that spiritual contract I made with God? I promised God that I would do this. So just because I came out, why does that mean that I have to change that value?

[Guest 1]

Who else do you trust to have such a conversation with within your community? I mean, you're not the first. You may be the first to your dad, sure. But your dad may have spoken with members of his community that had the same dilemma.

[Guest 3]

Right.

[Guest 1]

Does he advise them?

[Guest 3]

Oh, absolutely.

[Guest 1]

And then what happens? What is his advice? Hold your kid with the feet to the fire. If they do stray from the path, you have to mourn them, you have to cut off from them. Or what? What do you know about how he has helped other members of his community? He's a wise man.

[Guest 3]

He is. The thing is, that would be an inappropriate topic to talk about at home. I know how he handled it with me.

[Guest 1]

But you had one conversation seven years ago.

[Guest 3]

I had one conversation seven years ago, but I've had several others with my mom, who I'm. I'm sure has. She's kind of triangulated us. Me, him, and her. Because I am the oldest. So on top of it, I am. Yes. I am the oldest of four.

[Guest 1]

I should have asked you. That's one more responsibility. Yes, I hear you.

[Guest 3]

Yes. And, you know, it is a little bit more complicated because I think, you know, had circumstances been different for me and they didn't have sympathy, my story would be really different.

[Guest 1]

Meaning?

[Guest 3]

When I first came out to my mother and to my sister, she spent months and months trying to find counselors in our state to help me become straight. When that didn't work, after months and months, she talked to my dad, and they started to look at programs overseas. And so the plan was to send.

[Guest 1]

Me to conversion programs.

[Guest 3]

Conversion programs overseas.

[Guest 1]

And you went each time I went.

[Guest 3]

To the counseling program sessions in the States, yes. I was still an undergrad when all of this was happening, and I was still living at home, actually. But I could not handle going. I was going and kind of. I knew at that point nothing could be changed, and I was starting to accept myself. But I wanted to go along with what she was suggesting, just to kind of show her, like, hey, you know, actually, you know, even if you try, this is not going to work. So.

[Guest 1]

Can I ask you something?

[Guest 3]

I didn't want her to feel some resistance.

[Guest 1]

Can I ask you something?

[Guest 3]

Yes.

[Guest 1]

Do you accept?

[Guest 3]

I do. I do believe that I have a place in Islam. I do.

[Guest 1]

Good. Okay.

[Guest 3]

Which is, I think, part of why I. I do really value it, and I hold it dear.

[Guest 1]

Go back to your mom and dad a sec. You were telling me something.

[Guest 3]

Oh, yes. I didn't want them to see that I was resisting them one after the other. When she would find these counselors, when they didn't tell her what she wanted, she would fire them. She would sit in the session with me, and then that's when they decided, we're going to ship you off and you'll go to this conversion program in Saudi Arabia or to Syria, even though there was a civil war happening in Syria. The time. And that's when I completely. I couldn't handle that. And when they saw that I couldn't handle that, that's when they took a big pause and we stopped talking about it entirely.

[Guest 1]

What would happen if they heard this podcast? Because you're talking to me, but you're talking to Them.

[Guest 3]

I am. I would honestly think they would be a little bit surprised. They would probably feel betrayed. I think they would want to distance themselves if they actually heard this.

[Guest 1]

And you knew that before you spoke to me?

[Guest 3]

Absolutely.

[Guest 1]

Is there a statement in this?

[Guest 3]

I guess part of me believes that there's still stuck. Even after all of these years, they're still in that same spot where they think something might change.

[Guest 1]

Meaning it's a matter of choice.

[Guest 3]

Right.

[Guest 1]

And you're trying to tell them, this is not a choice. This is who I am, how I'm born, but it is also God's will.

[Guest 3]

Exactly.

[Guest 1]

And I was put here. And maybe God's will is for you to actually be challenged with something that feels impossible to you.

[Guest 3]

Absolutely. Absolutely, yes.

[Guest 1]

Because otherwise I will be caught in a struggle between. If I hold on to me, I lose you, and if I hold on to you, I lose me.

[Guest 2]

Yeah.

[Guest 1]

I either have my family, but I feel lifeless inside, or I allow myself to connect and to experience closeness and intimacy with men, and I lose my roots, my family. And I carry the burden and the responsibility of having shamed you and dishonored you publicly.

[Guest 3]

They would lose their validity in the religious community if they supported me publicly. It's. Yeah, a lot of it is social.

[Guest 1]

It's a fraudstian bargain. And when one is caught in such a bind, sometimes in an ironic way, the best thing is to be stuck. As young as you're stuck, you don't pay any price. It's kind of lopsided. But the goal is not to become unstuck, because to become unstuck is to instantly be thrown in an impossible loss.

[Guest 3]

Yeah, it would feel like an impossible loss. Absolutely. You know, but at the same time, you asked me making a statement, but, you know, this is just. This is my life. And I've tried the pretending it's. It's not healthy, my life. I'm.

[Guest 1]

Right. But you come from a tradition that does not really care too much about what is healthy in the Western sense of the word.

[Guest 3]

Yeah, that's very accurate.

[Guest 1]

Okay, so you're mixing and matching a bunch of different value systems here. And he said it very clearly. I understand what you are, but that doesn't mean that that's how you need to live. So how you need to live precedes what you are. You come from a tradition where preserving the relationships, the honor, the respectability come ahead of your personal authenticity or being true to yourself.

[Guest 3]

Yeah, they do. Yeah.

[Guest 1]

And it feels unbearable at times and untenable because it's like how much will I choke on the inside in order to preserve my relationships. But if I become true to myself or if I express my own authentic self, I will lose all my relationships connected to my family. Maybe not all your siblings, but certainly. But more importantly, I will make it impossible for my father to continue to be the teacher and the honorable member of his community that he is, because he will have to bear the shame that he wasn't able to stop me. Yeah, there is a way for you to think about not being so close. If you want to do this while living in their neighborhood, it's going to be very difficult. If you decide my duty, my role as the firstborn son, my role as the son of the Imam, etc. Etc. Is what I will let myself be defined by. Then you will make a choice that is about duty and obligation. And that's an honorable choice and it comes with its consequences. If you want to play the more secular American narrative, then you will say accepting that is accepting that I'm an aberration. And that is impossible for me. So it's an I endow battle. Am I vowing loyalty to the relationships and to where I'm from, or am I vowing loyalty to myself? You live in a society that values identity and personal authenticity way more than your community and many other communities. But as a gay man, you are really on the fault line. You couldn't have chosen a better word. As a gay man who is devout and Muslim and a man of faith and a loyal son, and in every other ways you probably have been a wonderful son. You're smiling or crying. Which is it?

[Guest 3]

I'm smiling.

[Guest 1]

Okay, tell me more.

[Guest 3]

It was nice to hear that from you that you said you were probably a good son. Because I do feel like I've made a lot of sacrifices for my family that are completely unseen but silently expected.

[Guest 1]

I didn't just say this to say something nice. I know it. I mean, I know it from listening to you and watching you and seeing the excruciating inner turmoil which you are discussing with a Jewish woman. Of all things, how transgressive can we be?

[Guest 3]

That's part of the appeal. Might as well do it all.

[Esther Perel]

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk.

[Guest 1]

About, so stay with us.

[Esther Perel]

Support for where should we Begin? Comes from Huntress. Huntress is one of today's fastest growing cybersecurity companies. Its platform was designed from the ground up to work for small to mid sized businesses and it promises enterprise grade security driven by technology services and expertise needed to defend against today's cyber threats, all at a price that makes sense. Today, even the least sophisticated hackers can still do a ton of damage to your small business. That's why Huntress build a fully managed, highly sophisticated security platform for its customers to guard against potentially devastating threats. Plus, you can rest assured that the people working in their 24. 7 Security Operations center will offer real protection all day, every day. So if you want cutting edge cybersecurity backed by experts who monitor, investigate and respond to threats with unmatched precision, you can visit Huntress.com to learn more and start your free trial. Support for Where Should We Begin Comes from Defender an intrepid spirit can take many forms. Maybe you're an adventurous eater who will travel hundreds, hundreds of miles for the perfect meal. Maybe you're living out the van life fantasy. Or maybe you're a die hard mountain lover who only feels at home in the woods. Whatever the case, the most devout adventurers will always find ways to push themselves to go farther, stay longer and push harder. And now there's a luxury vehicle that can keep up the Defender 110. The whole defense the Defendant Defender family of vehicles has been engineered for a new generation of explorers, built with robust materials and tested to the extreme. All to ensure comprehensive on and off road capabilities, complete with a tough rigid body design and durable lightweight architecture for extra strength and maneuverability. Whatever your lifestyle, the Defender family has a model to fit. There's the 2 door Defender 90 for a smaller crew, or the Defender 130 which seats up to 8. Explore the full Defender lineup at land RoverUSA.com.

[Guest 3]

Youm'Ve probably sent hundreds of cards in your life. Birthdays, anniversaries, holidays. But unfortunately most of those tend to end up in boxes, closets, or worse. The garbage. Not with Moonpig. Moonpig is here to level up your card game and add that personal touch. With Moonpig, you can upload photos directly from your phone, browse message inspirations, set reminders, and even add your own handwriting for that extra little touch. They'll even mail the cards for you. No stamps or post offices required, either on the go or from your sofa.

[Esther Perel]

Easy peasy.

[Guest 3]

Everyone deserves a moon. Try your first card free with code [e-mail].

[Guest 1]

Do you think they know the sacrifices? I know that you say they are silently accepted, but do you think they know I'm a witness? But you're going to meet me once in your life and you carry this with you. But among your siblings you have grandparents, uncles?

[Guest 3]

I do have grandparents. Big family, Right?

[Guest 1]

There's a big Smala.

[Guest 3]

Yes.

[Guest 1]

So in the Smala, does anyone. Smala is extended family for those of us who. People see you as a very devoted son.

[Guest 3]

Right? They do.

[Guest 1]

And they wonder why you don't have family yet.

[Guest 3]

Yes. Why I'm not married.

[Guest 1]

Right.

[Guest 3]

All of this.

[Guest 1]

And they introduce you to one woman after another at every wedding, every function. Do you ever think. I mean, in the many, many plots that you have entertained in your head, do you ever imagine being married with a woman and letting her know that you want to have a family with her, but that you also are a gay man?

[Guest 3]

I have thought of that in the past and I think that that can be done much easier than I even think. And people would be willing as long as everyone is honest in the process. But I'm still. I'm too much of a romantic. I do want the romantic love. To me, it would feel like I.

[Guest 1]

Was lying all over the place.

[Guest 3]

Yes, absolutely.

[Guest 1]

Is it that it's the lying or it's the compromising?

[Guest 3]

It's. It's compromising, but it. I would feel like I was soiling the love. If I had to have 800 schemes for me to even be in the same room as him. That part would make me feel like it was wrong, even if I believed that it wasn't.

[Guest 1]

You don't give yourself many options.

[Guest 3]

No, I know. And as I said that I was.

[Guest 1]

You want it pure and absolute. In an environment that may not allow for that, by definition, any kind of resolution will be a compromise. If you just go on saying I'm too much of a romantic and an absolutist and a purist. I worry that you are going to dry up to such a point that at some point you'll explode. And then when you explode, you will pay a price that is way too big and not what you want either. So holding on to principles and to purism or purity or absolutism, it may be very true, but it may not be wise.

[Guest 3]

It's really difficult for me to, like, accept that I do follow logically.

[Guest 1]

Yeah. Yes, I know, I know. But you're going back and forth between fear and rage.

[Guest 3]

Yes.

[Guest 1]

Part of you is afraid and part of you is enraged that that's what you should have to do and feels that it is a profound injustice.

[Guest 3]

Yes.

[Guest 1]

How does it speak in your head, that voice?

[Guest 3]

It makes me. Well, it's the voice, how it sounds. It's that I'm not religious enough. It tells me that this is my easy way out of not being religious. And after all, I'm not gonna be able to upkeep those principles because I'm not religious enough. That's a really big, big issue for me. That feeling that I've tried to run away from is that I'm not religious enough, which my mom and dad have both said.

[Guest 1]

And if I was, I would be able to suppress that whole part of me and follow the program.

[Guest 3]

Right.

[Guest 1]

May I ask you a question of ignorance? Are you meant to become an imam yourself?

[Guest 3]

I'm not, no. That was the plan, but I didn't want to. I didn't have interest in it. So my brother is being trained to do that.

[Guest 1]

Okay. If I was religious enough, I would. If I was as upstanding as I would like to be or think I should be, I would. What?

[Guest 3]

I would be able to uphold my religious values as a gay man the same way I would have if I was straight.

[Guest 1]

And given that I am not, then what?

[Guest 3]

Given that I'm not, I have to try harder.

[Guest 1]

Okay. So if I try harder, I don't have to ask a question about how I meet my partner.

[Guest 3]

What is that? Can you elaborate on that?

[Guest 1]

Yes. If I try harder, it means that my being a queer man is not meant to be a part of my life in active form. Maybe in yearning, longing, fantasy, imagination, but not in active form, in reality. So everything inside of me yearns to meet someone, and every other part inside of me is making sure that that doesn't happen so that I can prove my devoutness.

[Guest 3]

Yeah, I do see that.

[Guest 1]

Say it in your own words.

[Guest 3]

I exist in an environment that makes it almost impossible to meet someone, but my imagination keeps that possibility alive.

[Guest 1]

I have different departments inside of me. I have the imaginative department, but I also have the censorship bureau. My imagination keeps seeing me meet people because it's like a lifeline for me to know that there is hope and that love exists for me. But my censorship bureau makes sure that I don't ever really meet somebody so that I can maintain my devoutness and prove to myself and my family that I am worthy of being the firstborn Muslim son.

[Guest 3]

I never thought of having a censorship department. I never actively saw that. That is such a poignant analogy.

[Guest 1]

I mean, we can call it a censorship bureau, we can call it homophiobia, but we can also call it a part of you that also protects you from something that feels the worst thing that could happen. It's not just a restrictive bureau of censorship. It also has a protective element to it, in its weird but very obvious.

[Guest 3]

Way, it does serve a purpose.

[Guest 1]

Yeah. A deep purpose.

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Guest 1]

What's something that we have not touched that you would say, oh, I wish I had not forgotten that or not left that out?

[Guest 3]

There is one thing, as we were talking, especially about the not religious enough piece that was. I'm seeing how it's related now. And when you talked about, you know, the intensity at which I want to adhere to my values, the reason why my parents had a more positive reaction than a traditional immigrant Muslim family is because part of their reasoning for why I am gay is because of sexual assault that happened as a child. And so they know that that happened to me, and they attribute this to that trauma. There is some sympathy on there. And because of that and when we were talking about me wanting to really kind of prove the religiosity and adhere strictly, that did come up for me in my head and how we kind of talked about having a pure love, I do feel like part of it is probably related.

[Guest 1]

Can you tell me, or you either tell me how or I tell you what. I'm guessing.

[Guest 3]

In surviving that experience, I did feel like I was tainted somehow.

[Guest 1]

Yes. Okay.

[Guest 3]

I still sometimes feel that way. I don't feel like I was able to get justice from that. And I feel like if in my now in adulthood, if I am able to have a marriage or meet somebody and have a more traditional and chase sexual life until I'm married, it would feel like it would undo the wrong in a way, even though it's unrelated.

[Guest 1]

Tell me if I. If I hear you well, both you and your parents bring compassion to yourself through this experience. It gives it a framework. Do they know who it was and what it was?

[Guest 3]

They do know who it was, yeah.

[Guest 1]

If I find the love I imagine, if I experience the intimacy and the cherishing that I imagine, I will know that this person didn't take the best of me, that I'm lovable, worthy, and that I didn't just survive, but I revived. Am I hearing you?

[Guest 3]

Yeah.

[Guest 1]

So maybe this is not about, am I religious enough? I mean, that may be a question you have, too, but this is, am I whole enough? Am I not broken? In a way, my parents find compassion for me, but in my brokenness. And it's better than nothing, but it kind of confirms my brokenness.

[Guest 3]

Right.

[Guest 1]

And so while that works for them or for my relationship with them, when it comes to me, what I want to know is that I'm whole and I'm not broken, and this is not the determining event of my life. And I'm saying this without knowing anything of what happened to you. Just tell me something. Was it once or multiple?

[Guest 3]

It was once. And when I say I made a lot of sacrifices for them, I was instructed not to say anything because it would ruin our reputation. And so no police reports were made. Nothing. And then now, having grown up, I do kind of wish that we did. You know, I made that sacrifice for them.

[Guest 1]

They know?

[Guest 3]

I don't think so. I never told them that.

[Guest 1]

But that's what you mean by the sacrifices that are expected but are not really made explicit?

[Guest 3]

Yes.

[Guest 1]

You carry so much. You carry secrets. You carry rape. You carry the unspoken. You carry shame. You carry love. You carry the loneliness of not being touched enough. You carry the burden of a firstborn son. You carry the burden of the responsibility of the son, of the imam, of the holy man. And how could you desecrate that? You carry your unfulfilled longings and unmet wishes. I have deep respect for you.

[Guest 3]

I appreciate that.

[Guest 1]

And thank you for telling me. Thank you for listening and also for telling me the last part so that you didn't make a sacrifice. Finish the sentence.

[Guest 3]

So that I. It wasn't my. I didn't make a sacrifice. And it wasn't just my secret to hold.

[Guest 1]

If we spoke longer, I would start to ask more questions. But I don't want to open up a can that I won't be able to close. So I think you let me in a little bit and that's fine.

[Guest 3]

Okay.

[Guest 1]

Thank you so much.

[Guest 3]

Thank you for the call. I really appreciate it.

[Esther Perel]

The conversation you just heard is a one time session. It's a 45 minute conversation, maybe an hour, but so much happens afterwards. And so I am always eager to hear the follow up, the update and to do a pulse check. What landed? What did people keep? What was useful? Where did it take them? What changed? It's a one session, so one has to be humble about what can be achieved. But sometimes one session actually opens up a lot of new avenues and new stories. So I did receive a very beautiful update from him. And if you want to know about this follow up or any other sessions, follow up, you can hear it all on my office hours, on my Apple subscriptions.

[Sponsor]

This was an Esther calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message. And Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerstaireparel.com where should we Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhey, Kristen Muller and Julia Natten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul. Tis the season for jolly holidays and also the season for long travel days, chilly weather and a revolving door of cold and flu bugs. Nature Sunshine can help you and your immune system stay present for the holidays. For more than 50 years, Nature Sunshine has intentionally crafted supplements and natural products to support your gut, health, immune system, metabolism and so much more. More like their innovative Chlorophyll stick packs, their probiotic 11, or their colostrum supplement, all rich in broad based immune enhancers. This holiday season, don't miss out on the best deals of the [e-mail].

[Guest 3]

Support.

[Sponsor]

For the show comes from Ocean Spray. Friendsgiving is all about good people, good vibes and good food. Enjoy some easy going company and some easy appetizers and refreshments with that delectable cranberry flavor that just hits different this time of year. You can try a Cranberry Cream cheese dip, turkey and cranberry sliders or even Cranberry glazed wings and you can round out your meal with an Ocean Spray Juice spiced mocktail. Head to your local store to buy your Ocean Spray cranberry products for the best friendsgiving.