Episode Overview

Podcast: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Episode Title: Grief Begins With Love With Julia Samuel
Date: August 18, 2025

In this deeply reflective and insightful episode, Esther Perel explores the complex nature of grief—not just as an emotion, but as a transformative force that is inextricably tied to love and the restoration of life’s vibrancy. To deepen the conversation, she is joined by celebrated British grief psychotherapist Julia Samuel, author of Grief Works. Together, they examine how our relationships with loss, pain, joy, and aliveness shape our experience of the world and our capacity to heal.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

Esther Perel’s Opening Reflections on Grief and Eroticism

• Connecting Grief and Eroticism (03:50):

  • Perel explains her view of the erotic as a life force—a drive for aliveness and vitality, not limited to sexuality.
  • She traces her ideas back to her parents, Holocaust survivors, and describes distinct paths in trauma response: surviving vs. returning to life.
  • Quote:
    “Those who did not die were people who often lived very tethered to the ground... Those who came back to life had understood the erotic as an antidote to death.” (10:08)

• The Role of Play, Risk, and Creativity (06:00):

  • Recovery and re-engagement with life are marked by the ability to take risks, play, and be creative—qualities that imbue eroticism.
  • Quote:
    “Play is a state of unself-consciousness and freedom... creativity starts from a place of safety, but then projects you into a place of mystery.” (06:38)

• Collective Trauma and the Necessity of Aliveness (12:15):

  • Perel positions the current global atmosphere (pandemics, climate crises, burnout) as a backdrop of collective trauma, urging listeners to embrace rather than suppress aliveness.
  • Quote:
    “Eroticism is an elixir of vibrancy, curiosity and spontaneity that makes us feel alive... It’s the counterforce of deadness, the radiance that reminds us that... we are here on this planet right now.” (13:15)

Julia Samuel: Eros and Thanatos—Love, Grief, and the Forces That Shape Us

• Personal Story and Inherited Grief (18:48):

  • Julia Samuel shares her own family’s unspoken tragedies and how ancestral silence shaped her dedication to grief work.
  • Quote:
    “I inherited the emotional work my parents actually couldn't do. They didn't have that capacity.” (20:11)

• Grief’s Origins: Love and Anticipation of Loss (21:00):

  • Samuel reframes grief as beginning not at death but at the moment we realize something precious may be lost.
  • Introduces “living losses”—ongoing experiences of grief that accumulate and shape identity.

• Thanatos and Eros—The Interplay (22:10):

  • Drawing from mythology and Freud, Samuel describes the human psyche as balanced between Thanatos (death, contraction, withdrawal) and Eros (life, desire, connection).
  • Quote:
    “We tend to think that grief begins with death, but really, grief begins the moment we sense something precious slipping away. Grief begins with love.” (21:13)

• The Healing Power of Pain (24:00):

  • Advocates for allowing painful feelings as the gateway to healing, rather than numbing, distracting, or avoiding.
  • Quote:
    “Pain is, crucially, a portal. Paradoxically, it is by allowing ourselves to feel the pain that we heal. Not blocking it. Pain is the agent of change.” (24:14)

• Oscillation Model of Grief (31:27):

  • Introduces the dual process model: a healthy grieving process involves moving back and forth (oscillating) between confronting loss (Thanatos) and re-engaging with life (Eros).
  • Quote:
    "Over time, we incrementally adjust. It's really intentionally going to loss, giving it some time to feel the pain, and then intentionally giving ourselves a break from the pain and moving towards being restorative." (32:19)

• Eight Pillars of Strength (32:45):

  • Samuel outlines key tools for processing grief:
    1. Maintaining a relationship with what is lost through memories.
    2. Self-compassion—counteracting the self-critical “shitty committee.”
    3. Time—trusting felt/subjective time, not just linear time.
    4. Mind-body connection—prioritizing physical and emotional self-care.
    5. Movement—physical activity as crucial for mental flexibility.
    6. Structure—building routines that allow space for both pain and restoration.
    7. Boundaries—valuing the importance of saying no.
    8. Felt sense—listening to the body’s wisdom beyond words.
  • Quote:
    “If we stay with this work, we grow not despite the loss, but because of it... The very thing we feared would destroy us is the very thing that heals us.” (36:51)

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Highlight | |-----------|---------|----------------------| | 10:08 | Esther | “Those who did not die...lived very tethered to the ground...Those who came back to life had kind of understood the erotic as an antidote to death.” | | 13:15 | Esther | “Eroticism is an elixir of vibrancy, curiosity and spontaneity that makes us feel alive...It’s the counterforce of deadness...” | | 20:11 | Julia | “I inherited the emotional work my parents actually couldn't do. They didn't have that capacity.” | | 21:13 | Julia | “We tend to think that grief begins with death, but really, grief begins the moment we sense something precious slipping away. Grief begins with love.” | | 24:14 | Julia | “Pain is, crucially, a portal. Paradoxically, it is by allowing ourselves to feel the pain that we heal. Not blocking it. Pain is the agent of change.” | | 28:48 | Julia | “Thanatos and Eros work together in partnership, not in opposition. We cannot do this alone. When something or someone significant dies, it is only through the love of others that we are able to survive.” | | 36:51 | Julia | “If we stay with this work, we grow not despite the loss, but because of it...The very thing we feared would destroy us is the very thing that heals us.” |

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:50] — Esther’s reflections: Defining eroticism and the roots of her thinking in her family’s Holocaust survival.
• [10:08] — On the duality of surviving versus truly living after trauma.
• [13:15] — The universal, vital role of eroticism in healing and resilience.
• [18:48] — Julia Samuel’s introduction and personal story of inherited grief.
• [21:13] — Grief’s true origins and the duality of Eros and Thanatos.
• [24:00] — Pain, numbness, and the necessity of feeling to heal.
• [31:27] — Grief as an adaptive process; the oscillation between loss and restoration.
• [32:45] — Eight pillars of strength for grieving and living fully.
• [36:51] — Grief as catalyst for growth and gratitude.

Themes and Tone

• The overall tone is reflective, honest, and gently challenging, inviting listeners to deepen their understanding of grief as a companion to love and a necessary portal to renewed aliveness.
• Both Esther and Julia encourage moving beyond cultural taboos of silence or “overcoming,” and instead advocate for integrating loss, pain, and joy into the full experience of being alive.

Summary Takeaways

• Grief and aliveness are intertwined. The willingness to feel pain is essential for returning to a sense of vitality, creativity, and connection.
• Transgenerational effects of unprocessed grief shape families and individuals until the “emotional work” is recognized and engaged.
• Collective, living losses compound personal sorrows; grieving is both an individual and communal necessity.
• Practical tools and guiding principles (the “eight pillars of strength”) help listeners approach grief constructively without bypassing pain or abandoning the desire for joy.

For anyone navigating loss, or supporting others in grief, this episode offers profound wisdom anchored in real-life experience and clinical insight. It’s a compassionate guide to facing endings, honoring the pain, and ultimately rediscovering the will and wonder to live fully—again and again.