Leaving the Shame Behind

Summary

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Episode: Leaving the Shame Behind
Release Date: March 10, 2025

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Introduction

In the poignant episode titled "Leaving the Shame Behind," esteemed psychotherapist Esther Perel invites listeners into a deeply emotional and raw counseling session with John and Sarah, a married couple grappling with a series of life-altering challenges. This session delves into their struggles with severe health crises, shifting family dynamics, communication breakdowns, and the pervasive sense of shame and frustration that threatens to unravel their relationship.

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Background

John and Sarah, both in their early 30s, have faced extraordinary hardships since their marriage three and a half years ago. Their journey has been marred by multiple health emergencies, including a devastating car accident on John's side, a benign brain tumor on Sarah's side, and John's massive heart failure that left him in a coma for eight weeks. These events have significantly impacted their lives, leading to lasting physical limitations for John, such as slurred speech and reduced mobility, as well as emotional and psychological strains within their marriage.

Notable Quote:
Sarah (00:40): "We just got married like three and a half years ago, but I feel like we've been married 40 years, you know, just with the number of things that have happened to us."

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Presenting Issues

The session highlights several interrelated issues:

1. Health-Related Changes:
   John's physical limitations have altered traditional family roles. His inability to engage in activities he once enjoyed, such as playing sports or walking long distances, has led to feelings of uselessness and frustration.
   John (01:18): "I can't walk to the park without getting winded. And they just feel less useful than they. I can't do what I used to do."

2. Parenting Struggles:
   The couple is also navigating the complexities of raising their two-year-old child alongside Sarah's two children from a previous relationship. Financial strains due to John's unemployment and Sarah's over-functioning exacerbate tensions.
   Sarah (01:54): "Out working all the time. And I'm the one taking care of the two-year-old at home. I've never been the most patient father in the world."

3. Communication Breakdown:
   John expresses feelings of isolation and worthlessness, often directing his frustration towards Sarah, which she struggles to manage without feeling blamed.
   John (04:00): "Sometimes I just... There's too many bad things that have happened in a row, and I just can't seem to forget about them sometimes."

4. Substance Use:
   John's reliance on alcohol as a coping mechanism is a significant concern, impacting both his well-being and his relationship with his children.

5. Social Isolation:
   Both John and Sarah have experienced a dwindling social support network, contributing to their sense of isolation and exacerbating their emotional struggles.

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Key Discussions

The therapy session delves into the root causes of their distress and explores strategies for rebuilding their relationship and personal well-being.

1. John's Sense of Worthlessness:
   John grapples with feelings of invincibility shattered by his health crises, leading to a cyclical struggle between feeling overly capable and utterly helpless.
   John (05:10): "Actually, all of those, really. I used to always say I was invincible, and at the same time, I saw that I'm not completely invincible."

2. Sarah's Over-Functioning:
   Sarah has taken on an excessive role in managing household responsibilities and caregiving, which has left her feeling overwhelmed and underappreciated.
   Sarah (05:02): "He's just looking for someone to blame. And I think a lot of the times that I'm the one who gets the brunt of that."

3. Patterns of Apology and Responsibility:
   The therapist emphasizes the importance of John acknowledging his behavior and making sincere apologies to repair the emotional damage inflicted on his family.
   Therapist (27:38): "If you explode and you tell them I'm sorry, that was not about you. You don't lose your authority. You don't appear weak."

4. Rebuilding Identity and Purpose:
   Both John and Sarah are encouraged to rediscover their identities beyond their roles as caregivers and to find new interests and support systems to alleviate feelings of isolation.
   Therapist (15:20): "Give me a sense of what are the things around you that you could do tomorrow morning that don't have only have to do with work."

5. Addressing Past Traumas:
   The session uncovers deeper issues stemming from John's childhood, where he experienced shame and humiliation from his father, influencing his current behavior and coping mechanisms.
   Therapist (39:05): "Why don't you tell me? What was it like to have him shame you, humiliate you, and confuse your behavior with your personality and character, assassinate you?"

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• John (00:00): "Everything has changed. I went from just on the verge of finally having everything to having nothing."

• Sarah (02:10): "I do just love her too much. I don't know. I love him so much."

• Therapist (05:42): "We need to think about how you create something that is more real but also more hopeful."

• Sarah (26:55): "I didn't think that you even knew how cruel you've been, you know, or how much you've let it. You've let your frustration leech onto them."

• Therapist (33:54): "No such thing as too much loving your wife, though."

• John (43:35): "Yeah. Yes."

• Therapist (44:22): "You act it out at home. But for him, it isn't just a response to the disempowerment that he has felt post illness."

• John (51:08): "Yeah."

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Therapist's Insights and Strategies

Esther Perel employs a compassionate yet direct approach to address the couple's intertwined issues:

1. Shifting Roles and Responsibilities:
   The therapist encourages Sarah to recognize and adjust her over-functioning behavior, allowing John to take more responsibility where possible, fostering a sense of autonomy and mutual support.

2. Effective Communication and Apologies:
   Emphasizing the strength in vulnerability, Esther guides John to offer sincere apologies to his children and Sarah, helping to rebuild trust and emotional connections.
   Therapist (28:39): "There’s nothing weak about it. Whoever apologizes first is always the stronger one."

3. Rediscovering Personal Identity:
   Both partners are encouraged to engage in activities outside their parental and caregiving roles to regain a sense of self and reduce dependency on each other for validation.

4. Addressing Past Trauma:
   By uncovering John’s childhood experiences, the therapist aims to break the cycle of shame and punitive behavior that he has carried into his adult life, fostering healthier interactions with his family.

5. Building Social Support:
   Recognizing the impact of isolation, Esther recommends seeking external support systems, such as therapy groups or community organizations, to alleviate the burden solely placed on each other.

Notable Insight:
Therapist (46:36): "There's a lack of care and so you're trying to compensate with control."

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Outcomes and Conclusions

The session concludes with a heartfelt resolution where John commits to changing his behavior, acknowledging the pain he has caused his family. He practices a sample apology, demonstrating his willingness to take responsibility and seek forgiveness. However, the session also highlights the fragility of their situation, as Sarah ultimately decides to leave after another major incident, seeking a safe haven for herself and the children. This decision underscores the profound impact of prolonged emotional strain and underscores the necessity for ongoing healing and support.

Notable Quote:
Sarah (52:05): "I would say really bad. You can be really mean. You can say really terrible, terrible things to them and to me."

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Conclusion

Leaving the Shame Behind offers a raw and unfiltered glimpse into the complexities of a relationship under severe stress. Esther Perel masterfully navigates the delicate balance between empathy and accountability, guiding John and Sarah through the murky waters of their emotional turmoil. This episode serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of communication, mutual support, and the courage required to confront and overcome deep-seated shame and frustration within familial relationships.

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Transcript

[John]

Everything has changed. I went from just on the verge of finally having everything to having nothing.

[Esther Perel]

What you are about to hear is a classic session of where should we begin? With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Counseling names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

[Sarah]

We just got married like three and a half years ago, but I feel like we've been married 40 years, you know, just with the number of things that have happened to us.

[Therapist]

This couple is in their early 30s, and yet they have already experienced so much. They've been hit with a car accident on his side, a benign brain tumor.

[Sarah]

On her side, and then he had massive heart failure and he died. He ended up being in a coma for eight weeks.

[Therapist]

One of the consequences is that it has left him with a slurred speech and a limited mobility.

[John]

You know, I can't walk to the park without getting winded. And they just feel less useful than they. I can't do what I used to do.

[Therapist]

And in addition to the many health crises that they have undergone, they also are weathering the vicissitudes of the everyday life. Raising their two year old child as well as her two children from a previous relationship. He being unemployed and she being over functioning.

[John]

Out working all the time. And I'm the one taking care of the two year old at home. I've never been the most patient father in the world.

[Sarah]

He's just looking for someone to blame. And I think a lot of the times that I'm the one who gets the brunt of that.

[John]

As much as we fight sometimes, like, she's just too smart and good and.

[Sarah]

I do just love her too much. I don't know. I love him so much. But he's got some good weapons in his arsenal when it comes to emotional hurt.

[Esther Perel]

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[Sarah]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Therapist]

Give me the loop in your head when you start bitching at life, when you feel like life give you a raw deal.

[John]

I don't know. It's mostly just like no one's listening to me. Like nothing's working out the way I planned, you know, everything's been messed up, you know?

[Therapist]

Say more.

[John]

Sometimes I just. There's too many bad things that have happened in a row, and I just can't seem to forget about them sometimes.

[Therapist]

What do you focus on?

[John]

Oh, just how crappy I feel, how much it hurts to do lots of things. Just how different I feel just as a person from when this happened.

[Therapist]

Because you feel more vulnerable, because you feel more fragile, or because you physically hurt as well?

[John]

Actually, all of those, really. I used to always say I was invincible, and at the same time, I saw that I'm not completely invincible. So it's kind of one of those weird things.

[Therapist]

And you say, what? Life is over. You say, nothing means anything. You say, I'm worthless. You say, what?

[John]

Yeah, those are. Yeah, a lot of those things. I seem to be worthless. I'm not doing anything like I wanted to do.

[Therapist]

Okay. Where are your friends?

[John]

I don't have any.

[Therapist]

Where have they gone?

[John]

Moved far away or just don't exist anymore.

[Therapist]

And you have friends?

[Sarah]

Yeah, I mean, I have friends. Yeah. It was kind of like when we met, I didn't really have a lot of friends, and he had a friend group from high school, and most of that friend group has disseminated, and they moved away, and we just don't really talk to them very much anymore. It's just recently, like, in the past couple years that I've made more friends and felt more comfortable in my own skin. I think a lot of these people I didn't even meet until after he was sick, and I think.

[Therapist]

Did you meet people through this whole ordeal?

[Sarah]

Not really. It's kind of odd because he's so young. There is a community of people who have gone through heart issues and things, but they're also very much older than us.

[Therapist]

But it doesn't have to be the same condition. It just has to be. There are a lot of young people who are hit with a major health crisis in all these situations. Their life has changed overnight.

[Sarah]

He's never really been open to therapy or group, you know, kind of things.

[Therapist]

But I wasn't even thinking just therapeutically. I'm thinking you are isolated, and that is compounding everything else. Oh, yeah, you're isolated and, you know, you need people. So I'm asking about friends. I also want to ask about family. Where is the family? Is there other people around you?

[John]

Oh, yeah, my parents. You know, my parents live close to us.

[Therapist]

And how are they involved?

[John]

Oh, they help with the kids and they can. They've come over and help me all.

[Sarah]

The time for dinner, and they're very involved.

[Therapist]

In a good way.

[Sarah]

Yes, I love. I love them very much.

[John]

In fact, they're. My mom's watching the kids right now.

[Sarah]

Right now, so. But.

[John]

And my aunt.

[Therapist]

Are there people you rage in your family?

[John]

I'm completely different from any of those people, you know, and it's just like, I'm the only one that's married and a homeowner and has kids that they even know. Like, literally. It's just I'm very different from the rest of my family. They.

[Sarah]

I don't think you need to disparage. Disparage them that way, but they are a lot younger than him and not in the same place in life. I wouldn't say.

[Therapist]

Where is your family?

[Sarah]

Oh, gosh. My parents got divorced when I was an adult, so. And then my dad remarried to the woman that he was having an affair with. So it was very complicated situation there. And then my middle brother's a heroin addict that my mother enables quite a bit, and it's been a very problematic situation for us to overcome. So I don't really have a lot of contact with any of my family members. My defense mechanism is I just don't invest, so. But there's not any support? Not really.

[Therapist]

You have siblings?

[Sarah]

Yes, he has a brother.

[John]

I've got one brother.

[Therapist]

And where is he?

[John]

In Atlanta.

[Sarah]

They're not close. They haven't been close since his brother moved out of the state as soon as he graduated from high school and hasn't returned. So they've not had a.

[Therapist]

And your dad drinks?

[Sarah]

No, no, no. His dad's been sober for, what, like 40 years or some ridiculously long time?

[John]

Yeah, something like that. 35, 40 years. Oh, yeah. I still drink.

[Sarah]

Yeah. Too much, it says. Who, me?

[John]

It Says her.

[Sarah]

It says me. Well, I think. I don't know.

[Therapist]

I think I'll check.

[John]

Let me check sometimes.

[Sarah]

Tell her how much you really drink. Be honest. Be honest.

[John]

Well, I don't drink like I used to, that's for sure.

[Sarah]

Yeah, but you still.

[John]

I still drink four times. Four or five times a week, you know how much? Three to four drinks.

[Sarah]

Four or five times a week. Three or four drinks. I think that's too much.

[John]

It's just I want to relax and, you know, feel like I'm young again, you know.

[Therapist]

What other things do you do to feel young still?

[John]

I don't know.

[Sarah]

You play video games.

[John]

That's about it, yeah. Play video games?

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Wait, let me ask him.

[Sarah]

Sorry, I shouldn't answer.

[Therapist]

I do that a lot. Yes, you do, but I'm sorry, there's nothing you took.

[John]

All I do nowadays is pretty much play video games and that's about it.

[Therapist]

One of the things that I notice at this moment is that for all the months that he was in the coma and completely incapacitated, she had to take over so much that at this point, even when he's perfectly capable of answering a question by himself, she still feels that he needs her help. And one of the things that needs to happen is for her to know where her over functioning is needed and where it no longer is necessary. And so I will try to help her step back in the areas where at least he can step forward. And what else? What did you used to do?

[John]

I used to finish an eight hour day on my feet and then go play 18 holes and then come home and make dinner and like that was like a Wednesday for me. And now it's like I pretty much just chase around the kid and you know, I don't really do that much, you know, walk the kid to the park, that's. But all I really do and is.

[Therapist]

She in nursery school?

[John]

No.

[Therapist]

And why not?

[John]

Because I do it and it's just, it's too expensive right now. We don't have any money for it. So.

[Sarah]

With my younger children, they went to daycare by her age because we were at work. And so they got that exposure that they needed to the schooling and things and she hasn't had that. So that was one of the things that he knows. I really feel strongly that it's almost time to get her into a class a few times a week at least.

[Therapist]

One minute we're dealing with basic everyday life, parenting issues, discipline issues, money issues, and then the next minute we've just gone through brain tumors and Heart attacks and comas and death and resurrections, resuscitations, whichever way you want to call it. And this is not a normal situation, but it is a situation where two people are trying to normalize and to resume lives with a sense of future and a sense of hope. And a different awareness. Definitely a different awareness. And that awareness can either become the source of great zeal. Life is short. I don't know what can happen tomorrow. I am going to take it with full force, or I don't know what's going to happen. So what's the point? I sense that you go back and forth between two extremes. One minute you think, I can do everything I used to do, which is not true, and the next minute you think there is nothing more you can do, and that's not true either.

[John]

Yeah, that's a lot of the way I see it.

[Therapist]

So we need to think about how you create something that is more real but also more. More hopeful. You were two people who felt very early on that you were gonna do better than the people around you.

[John]

Yep. That was the plan.

[Therapist]

And there is no reason that that can't be there right now.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

You may not do what you used to do, but you will do other things. Being thwarted on your course happens to a lot of people. You know, people who play their instrument their whole life and suddenly they can't play. People who danced and suddenly they can't dance. You actually could cook. It's not like you can't cook. You can't be a chef in a very intense, stressful situation. But your craft, you can still apply. Maybe you can't build homes, because I think you probably were a very good handyman, too. Yeah. But there are plenty of talents you may not even know that you have because you're a talented guy.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Do you know that?

[John]

I know that sometimes I forget about it.

[Therapist]

That's right. That's right. You don't feel any of it enough at this moment, but in part because you're not doing enough. You understand the world you live in is too small for you.

[John]

Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

[Therapist]

So give me a sense of what are the things around you that you could do tomorrow morning that don't have only have to do with work, by the way.

[John]

Yeah. But no tomorrow I just want to hang out with my daughter, take her to do whatever she wants.

[Therapist]

But the thing is, that is part of the narrow world, because now your daughter becomes your entire source of pride and identity.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

She's only two.

[John]

Oh, she's perfect, though. I Know, I'm sure she'll stay that way forever.

[Sarah]

No.

[Therapist]

It's a burden on her shoulders.

[Sarah]

Yeah. She doesn't need to be your.

[Therapist]

To make her father's life worthy. To make him feel that he still is useful. It's a big burden on your daughter.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

So we need to add something. You need other interests. Drinking, gaming and childcare. Not enough.

[John]

Not enough.

[Therapist]

Not enough. So you telling him all the time that is only going to become an argument where he can say no to you. Because that now becomes a source of some power and some say and some autonomy. So resisting you becomes your new force. That sucks.

[John]

Yeah. For both of us.

[Therapist]

For both of you. I'm glad you know that.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Opposition becomes autonomy.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

It's very important when you are in front of someone who is facing so much loss. Loss of their. What they had envisioned for themselves. Loss of their capacity physically and mentally to not become the generator who is constantly trying to ignite him and push him, but just give him enough so that he can begin to push himself. It's like a car that you try to first put in neutral, take off the brakes and then push it just enough and hopefully down a hill so that it can catch some speed and then begin to ride back on its own. And that's where I'm trying to position myself in relation to him at this moment. And we're gonna have to write a new story.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

With new things you want to do. If it's immediately not the way I used to, then you basically giving me a story of mourning.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

The man I thought I was. The man I knew. The man who is no more. And we're going to need to mourn pieces of him and welcome a new guy. Because there's somebody here that's in front of me that's quite alive, I think. Yeah. Is he around? We got him sometimes. Are you willing to welcome the new guy?

[John]

Do you want a new me?

[Sarah]

I already have a new you. I mean, you think you're the. You're not the same person.

[John]

No, I'm not.

[Sarah]

I'm not either. How could we be after that? That's the thing. I think you are dwelling so much on what you wanted to be, you're not thinking about what you can be or what you should be now.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Willing to welcome these new people.

[Sarah]

I mean, I've had a hard time with it because I. Sometimes I just feel like I'm right back at the beginning of it, you know, like something will happen that will make me regress back to being so Scared and that, you know, I always was anxious. I had anxiety before this happened, and it was like the worst possible thing to have happen. That this thing that you shouldn't really have to worry about, that really, you know, anytime I had those kind of crazy thought processes, I would try to rein them back in and be like, that's not likely. That's something that we need to not worry about. And then it actually happens to you. It makes it a lot harder to tell yourself that's, you know, not gonna happen because it already did happen. It has been difficult. And so I don't like the person that I am now sometimes because I feel the weight of that.

[Therapist]

It is totally understandable. But what you do with that will make all the difference. You can say I learned something about the fragility. And therefore I'm much more caring, careful, attentive, grateful. There's lots of good things that come out of that as well. I'm not trying to make it rosy, you know, but it's a different awareness of life and of us as human beings. Or you can go into the poor me. People are continuously having to choose when things hit us. We can't choose what will hit us, but we will choose what we do with it and the meaning that we give to it.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

And you may not be able to do all of it alone. You need help, you know, and it can't all be her because she has her own. And you're gonna go to places that give you free help or very low pay help. Get. Get the support you need.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Because you're not continuing as is. I'm not sure if therapy is where he will go, but I wanted him to know that therapy is available for him should he want to go and that there is very good treatment out there that doesn't cost much or even anything. But in addition, what I really wanted to emphasize to him is what my friend Susanna Fox has often called just in time, someone like me, that there is nothing that can replace the support of others who have gone or are going through some of what we are struggling with at this time. Social isolation compounds all his physical or mental limitations more than any other factor.

[Esther Perel]

We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astera's office hours on Apple Podcasts. Support for this show comes from Robinhood with Robinhood Gold. You can now enjoy the VIP treatment, receiving a 3% IRA match on retirement.

[Sarah]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Sarah]

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[Therapist]

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[Sarah]

It feels like you've, you know, given up a little bit.

[John]

Yeah, well, I have.

[Sarah]

You don't have to. That's the whole point. You can't because you're too young.

[Therapist]

That's not a reason. Yeah, that's not a reason. That's not a good motivator.

[Sarah]

No.

[Therapist]

He's got too much talent.

[Sarah]

And you have so many people that love you.

[Therapist]

That's another great one. Yeah.

[Sarah]

The boys and me, they love you. They look up to you. Yeah, Yeah, I know. But a lot of the time they're. I think you take your frustration and you turn it into finding things that they've done wrong. And they look up to you. They. They love you so much. And you. I don't think you realize that it hurts them. Like, I can take it because I'm an adult, you know? Yeah, but they're. They're little and they need you to be giving to them, not, you know.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

When you say yeah, it means I hear you, I agree with you, or just keep on talking.

[John]

Oh, I. I agree with her.

[Sarah]

Really?

[John]

Yeah, really.

[Sarah]

Really, though.

[John]

Yeah, really.

[Sarah]

I didn't think that you even knew how cruel you've been, you know, or how much you've let it. You've let your frustration leech onto them.

[Therapist]

What do you know?

[John]

Yeah. Sometimes they're catching up on my frustration.

[Sarah]

You're letting it out on them.

[Therapist]

Do you apologize afterwards?

[John]

No.

[Sarah]

No.

[Therapist]

How come?

[John]

Because I feel embarrassed. Don't want to lose my authority. I don't want to feel like I make any mistakes, even if I.

[Therapist]

If you explode and you tell them I'm sorry, that was not about you. You don't lose your authority. You don't appear weak. You teach your boys self awareness. You teach them a sense of responsibility about how they affect others. You teach them humility. You teach them that true strength is the ability to say I'm sorry, and you're not weaker because of it.

[John]

That makes sense. Maybe a much better way of dealing with it.

[Therapist]

Do you understand? I don't think you'd have it in you, by the way. The idea that it would show me as weak because I'm too embarrassed, because I'm actually feeling ashamed. Turned the shame into guilt. Guilt is conscience. Shame is hiding kids. That wasn't about you. I'm sorry. I could have done this better. And your boys will melt in your hands and they look up to you and you will feel better. That's the thing for tomorrow morning.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Can you hear yourself say it?

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Show me.

[John]

Shut the door. Kids, I'm sorry. You know, I'm just having a rough morning. You kids have a good day at school. That might actually be a prediction of exactly the way it happens, and you.

[Therapist]

Could even go a step further. Some days I feel very frustrated. It's been hard for me, and I know that. I take it out on you, and I want you to know that I know.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Can you imagine that one?

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

They need to hear that, you know.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

But I am looking at him because if you're going to tell him, then he's going to feel undermined again. So you can't go home and say, esther said, I know.

[John]

Simon said, did I get that in writing?

[Therapist]

Yes. Yes. But yours need to be in writing, too. So tell her what you're prepared to put in writing, and then she'll put hers in writing.

[John]

Like, I'm sorry, honey. You know, it's been a terrible time since I got sick. And I've just been so angry at everything. Angry at the fact I can't talk, angry at the fact I can't move. Angry at everything. You've been the one person there for me, and I'm sorry I've taken all that anger out on you because I shouldn't have been the one person that's been there for me constantly. And I love you. It's not about you. Okay? Anger has nothing to do with you. Okay. Has to do with me. Yeah. I'm sorry. I love you. You know I do.

[Sarah]

I know you do, you know, I know you do.

[John]

Too much.

[Sarah]

There's no such thing as too much loving your wife, though.

[John]

That's debatable.

[Therapist]

And now bring the boys in there.

[John]

And it's just, you guys know, it's been rough. It's been terrible. It's been hard for you, it's been hard for me. And you know what? I've taken a lot of it out on you. You know I love you. You know I want things to be great, so let's try to make things great.

[Therapist]

Can I tweak a bit? Yeah, it's great what you're doing, but I'm gonna tweak it a bit. But when they say to them, you know, I love you, I would probably say, I can imagine that when I behave the way I Do you wonder if I love you or. I can imagine that when I yell at you the way I do, you probably don't feel anything. Love from me. Because at some point you will have convinced them that you don't love them if you keep doing what you do. And then they will become defiant and then they will talk back to you. And then you will feel more humiliated and then you will act worse. Then you will hide it more because you will feel even more embarrassed about being in a way that has nothing to do with who you are.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

So you tell them, I would like to change this. I'm going to work on this. I'm making a commitment. I know that it's not going to change necessarily overnight, but I'm going to make a real attempt at changing this. You don't deserve this and neither do I.

[Sarah]

I see you, Chai. I see how you can be with them sometimes. They love you when you're like that. They want your love so much, you can give it to them and they'll take it. It's definitely not too late.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

You know, that's the whole thing I really wanted to come here for. Because I've thought about leaving. Because I can't keep watching you do what you do. Then for me, I would never leave because I love you so much. But the thing that I struggle with is I love them too. Am I being a good parent if I let it go on? And I know that the answer is I'm not that I need to. So I just desperately want you to work hard. Rock it. And they want it, too. We all want it. We all want to be happy.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

And we all are trying our best for you and for ourselves.

[Therapist]

And how bad does it get? How bad does it get?

[Sarah]

Really bad. I would say really bad. You can be really mean. You can say really terrible, terrible things to them and to me. When you're angry.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

They believe that you think they're stupid and that you think they're dumb and lazy. They believe that because that's what they hear from you when you're mad. And even when you're not that angry, just when you want them to come high, you pull those weapons out. Sometimes really prematurely.

[Therapist]

And this is different from before.

[Sarah]

I would say it is a lot more frequent now. A lot more.

[Therapist]

We know that people who feel disempowered in the world outside often will take their repressed anger and act it out at home. But I also know that for him, it isn't just a response to the disempowerment that he has felt post illness. I also think that this is something that has a longer history and that doesn't relate to the immediate crisis that just occurred. There's a bigger legacy that is at the heart of the way that he explodes with his children. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

[Esther Perel]

Support for the show comes from the aclu. The Trump administration is pushing a dangerous and sweeping attempt to control our bodies, our families, and our lives at the same time. A Supreme Court case this term could shape the future of bodily autonomy for all. Tennessee wants to take away transgender people's autonomy over their own bodies. They think the ruling that overturned Roe v. Wade allows them to do it. This would hurt everyone's freedom to control their bodies and lives. The government has no right to deny a transgender person the health care they need, just as they have no right to tell someone if, when, or how they start a family. The ACLU told the court that everyone deserves the freedom to control their bodies. Learn more at aclu.org/autonomy.

[Sarah]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Therapist]

Let's go.

[Esther Perel]

Who are unapologetically themselves like Kathy Bates in Matlock.

[Therapist]

Nobody sees us coming.

[Esther Perel]

And who forge ahead like Christina Richie in Yellowjackets.

[Therapist]

I thought you'd be more excited to.

[Esther Perel]

See me explore the Women who Move Mountains collection on Paramount Stream.

[John]

Now.

[Therapist]

Where did you learn this?

[John]

Mm, I don't know.

[Sarah]

I do.

[Therapist]

And who did this to you?

[John]

Nobody. Really?

[Sarah]

Really?

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

You. Really? Your dad didn't. I mean, your dad did.

[John]

Me and my dad.

[Sarah]

Your dad did. He does. He is the same kind of way. He's got a short fuse. And he can say crazy things when he's mad, too. Not as crazy as you, but.

[Therapist]

And what was that like when you were the child?

[John]

Oh, not fun meaning. But I Also wanted to not mess up was my.

[Sarah]

You wanted his approval.

[John]

I wanted to be better at everything. I don't know.

[Sarah]

Really?

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

I think we both agree that by the time you were a teenager, you were rebelling pretty hard.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Yeah. So I don't think that it made you want to be better. I'm truth checking you a little bit on that because I know that she.

[Therapist]

Did a bit of a corrective. Why don't you tell me? What was it like to have him shame you, humiliate you, and confuse your behavior with your personality and character, assassinate you?

[John]

I mean, he was harsh, he was strict, he was mad. But it's not.

[Therapist]

You thought you deserved it.

[John]

Well, especially now that I'm older, I realize I probably did deserve it. Cause I was being a little shit sometimes, you know, sneaking out of the house. There's a lot of things that I did that I look back on and go, God, I was terrible.

[Therapist]

Okay, but when she says, this will be a deal breaker for me, what happens to you?

[John]

Oh, I don't want to think about that. Cuz it's. She knows that I try, you know?

[Therapist]

No, but. No, she won't know that you try because you've just told her that you actually think it's the right way to be.

[John]

Oh.

[Sarah]

They just. They don't deserve it. And not because I am being too lenient. And I agreed with you that I will pay more attention, and I've been trying to do that.

[John]

Or that there's no punishment and we just let it go.

[Sarah]

Well, the problem is we don't agree on what requires punishment and what just needs redirection.

[Therapist]

Mm.

[Sarah]

I redirect them to get back on task. But he wants to punish them for not doing the task or something like that, don't you think?

[Therapist]

Or talking back to you if you call them names. You're teaching them to talk back. Yeah, it's not your intention. But they're learning from you. Like you learned from your dad.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

And then you may have one kid who does what you did, which was I'll outdo you so that you can never have a bad word to say about me. I'll become perfect. I'll become stronger, better, smarter. I'll show you. Yeah, that was you. And then you have another sibling who basically gets the hell out of there as fast as possible. Yeah, and probably barely comes back. And she doesn't want that for her two boys.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

I've made that exact same statement when you tell me that you turned out okay.

[Therapist]

I see you turned out okay. Because you were pushed by the anger towards your dad.

[Sarah]

As in, I'll show you, but not before self destructing. Pretty good first, too.

[John]

I don't know, I just, like, I did, you know, drugs when I was younger and things and that, you know, did nothing for a couple years when I was like, 18, 19, you know, and then I quit doing all that stuff and then went back to normal work and stuff like that. That's about it.

[Therapist]

So you have the experience of turning things around?

[John]

Yeah. Yes.

[Therapist]

You've done it already? Once.

[John]

Yep.

[Therapist]

Good. And what did you do? One day you just said, enough of this shit.

[John]

Yeah, it was basically. It felt like shit. I looked like shit. I was tired of, you know, feeling terrible.

[Therapist]

Like now? Yeah, like now.

[John]

Okay. Very similar, actually.

[Therapist]

Mm.

[John]

More similar than I'd probably like to admit.

[Therapist]

Yep. Did it ever occur to you that this is so similar?

[John]

No. One was self induced and one is NAD self induced.

[Therapist]

And the accident is not self induced. But the state that you're in right now is. I don't know that I would call it self induced. But it is self generated.

[John]

Yes.

[Therapist]

That's very interesting because you actually have a real precedent. I know how to do this.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

So how bad do I have to feel?

[John]

Pretty bad.

[Therapist]

Or do you need to really feel like she's at the door?

[John]

I hope not.

[Therapist]

Do you know that she is? Did you hear her say it just now?

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

That was the first time.

[John]

No.

[Sarah]

No.

[Therapist]

But generally she says it in the middle of a fit.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

And now she said it to you very calmly and very caringly.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

I don't want to leave you. That's not what I want. That's why we're here. That's why I'm still here. Yeah, but I don't want what's going on in our house to continue either.

[John]

No.

[Sarah]

And I think a lot of the time you say things like, whose side are you on? And you try to pit it like it's you versus the kids and whose side are you on? And I don't want to be on any side. I want to be together and do it together. But we've talked about so many times. There are certain behaviors that you do that I can't get behind. And then we're stuck.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

You feel like I'm not supporting you. And I feel like you are doing something so terrible to the children that I can't support it.

[John]

Yeah. Sometimes I ask for help and I don't feel like I get it. I ask for, what do you want to do? What do you Think we should do different. And it's often times like, well, let's just let it go. Let's just be direct. And it's like, well, this is the 10th time this has been a problem. Like, we can't just keep.

[Therapist]

Because the problem is not a discipline issue.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

Your issue is to be more loving to those kids.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

There's a lack of care and so you're trying to compensate with control.

[John]

Yeah.

[Sarah]

Do you really mean. Yeah, I guess is my question.

[John]

I understand that. Do you? Yeah.

[Therapist]

Look, this is a very common problem. Yes. And a piece of this is unrelated to what happened to you. It's just that you feel worse about yourself, so you dump more. But the method was in place before because the method is the one that you grew up with. Any boy who was put down and shamed by his dad and who then used it as a source of defiant energy, I'll show you. Has this weird belief that it actually was the right tactic. It strengthened me. It made me a man. You actually think that it's the way to go. And it's a way with some known outcomes, with a classic debate between the partners with which one becomes the overindulgent and one becomes the over controlling. And every time you become over controlling, she will be, in your mind, overindulgent because she will think that she has to soften the blows. And every time you will become more tough than you actually are because you think that she's turning them into mush.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

And you are going to toughen them up and make a man. And she's just like sissying him up. And the whole thing is one big gender mind.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

So you can reverse roles for a while. You're going to take the responsibility of limit setting and you're going to take the responsibility of showing love.

[Sarah]

All right.

[Therapist]

But you will not look at how well she's setting the limits. You will look at how well you are expressing your love, your joy for them, your fondness for them, your. Your appreciation for them in your life, your belief in them, your trust in them. That's going to be your focus. And only that, because you are totally skewed to the other side. Each of you has taken on one side. You both need both. For that matter. The fact is, your system doesn't work. The system that doesn't work is the system in which parents become polarized, Each one thinking that they need to do what they do in order to compensate for what's missing in the other person's approach. But also the system that doesn't work is his hoping to gain control by losing control. That is always an ineffective system. But what I'm also doing more importantly is I'm grounding them into something that can happen and change tomorrow morning that is back into the everyday and for which he can do something right away, both of them. And that is a very big shift away from the self absorption around his change and his losses and his mournings into the who can you be right now you're going to slip and you're going to go back on track. You just remember I'm on a different path here. My goal at this point I've done a few years of just discipline. At this point I'm turning into brats and the more bratty they become and the more I'm going to want to squish them and the more I'm going to squish them and the one the more they're going to resist me. And it's not going to be good because I actually would like to connect with these kids and I'm going to end up not but before that all happens, she'll be gone because she has a big great pride in who she is as a mother, you know.

[Sarah]

Yes.

[Therapist]

And that will come before you. That self love is going to be more important than how much she loves you. That she's very clear on and I respect that a great deal.

[John]

Yeah.

[Therapist]

So to apologize. There's nothing weak about it. Whoever apologizes first is always the stronger one. A few weeks later we received a letter from the woman that there had been another major incident. And at this time she knew she had reached a limit. She was clear, she was grounded. She loved this man, but she was not going to put her children at risk. We within 15 minutes she packed up the stuff she left him. She went with the children to a hotel and sought a safe haven. But while it took her only 15 minutes to take her children and leave the house, it will take much longer for the remnants of abuse to heal.

[Esther Perel]

You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin? With Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine in the Cut to apply with your partner for a session on the podcast. For the transcripts or show notes on each episode or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to esteraparell.com Estera Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details go to her website estheraparell.com Support for the show comes from the ACLU. The Trump administration is pushing a dangerous and sweeping attempt to control our bodies, our families and our lives at the same time. A Supreme Court case this term could shape the future of bodily autonomy for all. Tennessee wants to take away transgender people's autonomy over their own bodies. They think the ruling that overturned Roe versus Wade allows them to do it. This would hurt everyone's freedom to control their bodies and lives. The government has no right to deny a transgender person the health care they need, just as they have no right to tell someone if, when or how they start a family. The ACLU told the court that everyone deserves the freedom to control their bodies. Learn [e-mail] autonomy some adventurers refuse to settle. They carve their own path with confidence, grit and unshakeable integrity, undaunted by the impossible. For them, there's the Defender family, a trio of luxury vehicles vehicles purpose built for the modern Explorer. From the agile Defender 90, the versatile Defender 110, and the spacious 8 seat Defender 130. Each model combines rugged durability, unmatched capability and lightweight monocoque architecture for extraordinary strength. This icon of adventure is meticulously designed for a new generation of explorers who want to tackle the world head on. Ready to to embark on your next great adventure? Build your Defender [e-mail].