Ms. Entitlement and Mr. Sacrifice Out on a Date

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Ms. Entitlement and Mr. Sacrifice Out on a Date"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
• Host/Author: Esther Perel Global Media
• Episode: Ms. Entitlement and Mr. Sacrifice Out on a Date
• Release Date: April 21, 2025

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Introduction

In this poignant episode of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel, viewers are introduced to a complex relationship dynamic between two individuals, hereafter referred to as Partner 1 (Ms. Entitlement) and Partner 2 (Mr. Sacrifice). Both have experienced long-term marriages and are navigating a midlife relationship marked by contrasting personalities and deep-seated emotional conflicts.

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Characters and Relationship Dynamics

Partner 1 (Ms. Entitlement):

• Describes herself as a selfless individual deeply involved in volunteering and helping others.
• Struggles with guilt when seeking personal pleasure, feeling it conflicts with her sense of duty.
• Expresses a strong desire for emotional nurturance and security within the relationship.

Partner 2 (Mr. Sacrifice):

• Depicts himself as a devoted caregiver with a vast capacity for empathy and compassion.
• Maintains an open relationship, believing it allows both partners to pursue their personal and professional passions without feeling constrained.
• Grapples with internal conflicts surrounding his fetish for cuckoldry, which juxtaposes his altruistic nature.

Key Insights:

• The couple operates in a holding pattern, oscillating between closeness and distance, often resulting in emotional standoffs.
• Partner 1 feels unfulfilled emotionally, yearning for more intimacy and presence from Partner 2.
• Partner 2 fears that deep emotional connection will impede his ability to fulfill his roles and responsibilities.

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Core Issues Discussed

1. Contrasting Personalities:

   • Partner 1 embodies selflessness and duty, often prioritizing others over herself.
   • Partner 2 seeks freedom and personal fulfillment, balancing his altruism with his own needs.

2. Fetish and Emotional Conflict:

   • Partner 2's fetish for cuckoldry creates tension, as it conflicts with his self-perception as a devoted and responsible individual.
   • Partner 1 struggles to reconcile her partner's desires with her own need for emotional security.

3. Guilt and Self-Deprivation:

   • Partner 1 experiences guilt when indulging in personal pleasures, viewing them as selfish.
   • This guilt extends to everyday activities, such as dining out, where she rationalizes her actions by comparing them to the suffering of others.

4. Emotional Nurturance vs. Duty:

   • Partner 1 seeks emotional support and closeness, while Partner 2 feels obligated to maintain his sense of duty over personal relationships.
   • This dichotomy leads to frequent conflicts and emotional distancing.

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• Partner 1: "Sometimes it's a standoff." (06:10)

• Partner 2: "He gives to a capacity that I don't think I could ever get to. I think I'm probably way more selfish than him in many ways." (08:06)

• Partner 1: "I just want to know that you love me in a way that it's not risking our relationship." (17:03)

• Partner 2: "I need Plan B right now." (08:48)

• Narrator: "Every fantasy states the problem, the emotional thing we're trying to resolve, and it offers the solution." (14:03)

• Partner 1: "When you hold me, I feel like I'm being recharged...to feel free to go back out in the world to do more of the work that I'm supposed to do." (28:00)

• Partner 2: "What would you want?" (49:38)

• Partner 1: "Yes, there's that feeling that I get that sends me into a crisis of consciousness." (17:58)

• Partner 2: "I would want more of him." (49:47)

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Therapeutic Interventions and Techniques

Esther Perel employs the "double" technique, a method inspired by Greek theater, where she mirrors the client's statements to help them gain deeper self-awareness and insight. This technique allows Partner 1 to articulate her fears and desires more clearly, facilitating a better understanding between the partners.

Key Interventions:

• Doubling Technique: Helps clients express internal conflicts by echoing their sentiments, enabling them to confront and process underlying emotions.
• Identification of False Dichotomies: Esther identifies that Partner 2 creates a false dichotomy between self-sacrifice and personal pleasure, hindering emotional intimacy.
• Exploration of Fantasies: Understanding the role of Partner 2's fetish as a manifestation of his deeper emotional needs and fears.

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Insights and Conclusions

1. Balancing Selflessness and Self-Care:

   • Both partners struggle with finding a balance between giving to others and nurturing their own needs.
   • Partner 1's self-deprivation stems from a place of wanting to belong and be cared for, while Partner 2's over-giving leads to emotional exhaustion and avoidance of personal fulfillment.

2. Impact of Past Experiences:

   • Partner 2's background as a deacon and his experiences at Ground Zero have shaped his sense of duty and empathy, influencing his current relationship dynamics.
   • Partner 1's upbringing, where she felt her independence was not adequately supported, contributes to her need for emotional security.

3. The Role of Guilt in Relationships:

   • Guilt emerges as a significant barrier, preventing Partner 1 from fully embracing pleasure and intimacy without feeling selfish.
   • This guilt is intertwined with her partner's sense of responsibility, creating a cycle of emotional tension and unmet needs.

4. The Necessity of Emotional Honesty:

   • For the relationship to thrive, both partners need to engage in honest dialogues about their needs and fears.
   • Esther highlights the importance of understanding that giving to oneself does not negate one's ability to give to others, challenging the clients to redefine their relationship with self-care and mutual support.

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Final Thoughts

This episode delves deep into the intricate dance between selflessness and personal fulfillment within a romantic relationship. Esther Perel masterfully navigates the couple's struggles, revealing how deeply ingrained beliefs and past experiences can shape present dynamics. The session underscores the importance of balancing duty with self-care, and the transformative potential of honest communication in fostering emotional intimacy.

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Note: Timestamps correspond to the provided transcript sections and are indicative of when certain discussions occur within the episode.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

What you are about to hear is a classic session of where should we begin With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's and each episode is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. Support for this show comes from Nordstrom. Nordstrom brings you the season's most wanted brands, Skims Mango, Free People and Princess polly, all under $100. From trending Sneakers to beauty must haves, they've curated the styles you'll wear on repeat this spring. Free shipping, free returns and in store pickup make it easier than ever. Shop now in stores [e-mail].

[Narrator]

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Remember to ask for Botox Cosmetic by name. To see for yourself and learn more, visit botoxcosmetic.com that's botoxcosmetic.com at a time when I meet this couple. Both people have been married before, have had long term marriages. This is a midlife relationship for both of them.

[Partner 1]

She proved to be a strong woman with a great sense of direction and where she wanted to go. She was successful.

[Partner 2]

He's the type of person that I can speak deeply with, you know, he's somebody that I trust. He's someone that I've fallen in love with.

[Narrator]

He has devoted his life to saving humanity in multiple ways and taking care of people for the greater good.

[Partner 1]

I was a recovery worker as a deacon at Ground Zero in New York. That was probably the point in my life that changed my whole life.

[Partner 2]

So he's done some amazing things. He's handled a lot of trauma himself and has a deep sense of empathy and that's what attracts me to him.

[Partner 1]

Sometimes you'll look at that as I'm some kind of a superhero, but really I'm not.

[Narrator]

They are in a holding pattern of on again, off again with a number of increasingly rigid definitions of themselves. One person seen as more selfish, one person seen as more selfless.

[Partner 2]

He works a lot and it's like, dude, I can't have a relationship with you if I'm going to see you twice a week.

[Partner 1]

She kind of had a white collar viewpoint, me being more blue collar and work, work, work work, work.

[Narrator]

One Person talking about pleasure, the other person talking about duty.

[Partner 2]

I'm like a free spirit. When I travel, I want to explore, go check it out, have drinks.

[Partner 1]

I do enjoy life. I enjoy it through volunteering and the things I can do to help other people. That gives me this great satisfaction.

[Narrator]

They have kind of polarized around he, Mr. Purpose. She misses frivolous. At the same time, Mr. Purpose seems to need her to be frivolous, at least when it comes to one of his sexual predilections.

[Partner 1]

For the longest time, I looked at with guilt and didn't understand it. I don't want to hide it from anybody. I just go, hey, you know what? I love you, but there's this, like, crazy thing that goes on.

[Esther Perel]

This is. Where should we begin with Esther Perel.

[Narrator]

Do you know the city?

[Partner 1]

Well, I only know it because I was here 16 years ago at Ground Zero. Yeah, I was a fire chaplain.

[Partner 2]

I was a little nervous about coming here. It's his first time back since.

[Partner 1]

I use it as a great experience to live life more fully and more openly. And there's a lot of people who didn't have the opportunity to live now that lost their lives. And I still get chills talking about that.

[Narrator]

I feel it as you say it. I hear the chill and I hear the I'm gonna live for all of those who didn't get a chance to. And so then, of course, my next question is, are you the beneficiary of the fullness of his living?

[Partner 2]

Well, we only met two years ago.

[Narrator]

I know, I know. But is it palpable that the liveness that he wants to have.

[Partner 2]

I don't know. Yes and no. I think sometimes I have to pull him along. And I think that maybe that's why we met, because I live that way anyway. I live my life pretty boldly and fearlessly in a lot of ways where he hasn't experienced that because he stayed local his whole life. He raised children. He's a grandfather. We lived incredibly different lives. I didn't have children. I traveled. Husband and I did all kinds of different things. And, you know, he lived his life with, I think, more purpose than me.

[Narrator]

So this is the meeting between Purpose and Frivolous?

[Partner 2]

Exactly, exactly. No, it's true in a lot of ways.

[Narrator]

We've named you, we've renamed you. And Mrs. Frivolous says to Mr. Purpose, why don't you lighten up on occasion and let's have some fun and let yourself go. And Mr. Purpose, you don't understand responsibility. Things weigh on me. Life is Grim and dark. It's not just all fun and play.

[Partner 2]

You got it.

[Narrator]

What have I missed? Give me some color. Is it a difference or is it a standoff?

[Partner 1]

Sometimes it's a standoff.

[Partner 2]

Sometimes it's definitely a standoff. Especially when we travel, because I'm, you know, I want to see and feel. I want to experience everything. And he's a little more, you know, he's an observer. He likes to observe. He likes to be kind of on the periphery. I want to be, you know, in the middle of it all.

[Partner 1]

And part of that comes the sense of purpose. And part of that observation piece comes from being trained in a way to understand when somebody's hurting, to feel, to try to sense their energy.

[Narrator]

Well, let me just ask you one thing in light of what you just said before. I have seen horror. I've seen death. I've seen people fighting to stay alive. And I owe it to them. The fact that I am alive to live my life at its fullest.

[Partner 1]

Yes.

[Narrator]

With that comes this woman who is going to help you do this thing which you say you want, but which I have a feeling you have struggled to do.

[Partner 1]

Mm.

[Narrator]

On the one hand, you've recruited her, and on the other end, you argue with her about why you don't want to do it when it's exactly why or one of the big whys of what drew you to her. She will lighten you up. She will give you the permission to be playful, to, on occasion, think about you without feeling that that's a big no. No. And, of course, I'm imagining on the other side that one of the big draws for you is to see a man who has such a deep ability to care and to put himself aside and to think about others and to care about what you're going through in ways that maybe your previous man didn't.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. He gives to a capacity that I don't think I could ever get to. I think I'm probably way more selfish than him in many ways. His capacity for empathy, compassion, just. It's incredible.

[Narrator]

Something you would like to have a little more of?

[Partner 2]

Absolutely.

[Narrator]

And what he may want a little more of is the freedom to sometimes be more like you.

[Partner 2]

He and I have been off again on again. I mean, we sit here as what I call free agents. We have no commitment. I see other people. He knows that. And for me, right now, from my sense of safety, that's what I need it to be.

[Narrator]

I need a strategy to soften the blow in case he and I are not together. So I Make sure to have plan B.

[Partner 2]

Yes, absolutely. I need plan B right now.

[Narrator]

That's what we're talking about.

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Narrator]

Okay. What is the reason for you to make sure that you have plan B or C?

[Partner 2]

So there's two major reasons for me. One is time. He works a full time job. He has a family, grandchildren, and he's an incredible giver to everybody in his life. Everybody. So my access and time with him is very short. And I have a full time job as well. My brother lives with me who's in emotional crisis. He's basically homeless. I'm supporting him. So there's that. I have aging parents. They're still alive.

[Narrator]

It also says you're not just mis. Frivolous. No, that's not pigeonholed. Means that you too know to be.

[Partner 2]

Absolutely. Okay, so there's that piece and then there's. He was married for 26 years and for many of those years his wife would be intimate with other men and that was part of his desire and what he liked. And they did that for many years. I think you told me within the first couple of weeks that we knew each other.

[Partner 1]

Once I knew who you were and how open you were that I didn't. I try not to keep those things that I find odd about myself.

[Partner 2]

At the time when he told me, I was like, you know, everything you knew.

[Narrator]

You like her with other men and you watch or you like her with other men and she comes tell you both.

[Partner 1]

Well, yes, it's erotic for me. I don't understand that piece. But it's not that I need to sit there and watch and participate in it. Although I did that in the early stages of my marriage with my first wife, it became more of. Do you like that guy? Just go hang out with him. Then we'll come back together and we'll have a good time. With my ex wife, there was a glow. She seemed to always feel better about herself, that she still had things that excited other guys. And I didn't have the desire to be with other women. So there are some risk and there were some dangers in that that did have an effect. My ex wife and I, we were trying to fulfill voids in a relationship that we never had a chance to really, never really even discover if we were that compatible with each other. And the four relationships I've been in now since that, I always go into them thinking that that piece of me, that desire in me will go away and it won't be a burden. I won't have to tell somebody that it exists.

[Narrator]

The Fetish?

[Partner 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Narrator]

It's a fetish of being cockified. Do you know the word cuckold?

[Partner 2]

Yes, I know that word.

[Partner 1]

Yeah, I do know that word. But it. There's a part of me that always believes it's not right. It hurts your integrity. Wow. How can I do all these really great things for other people?

[Narrator]

And do you understand your turn on? Why this. What does it do for me? Because every fantasy is a code and a fetish is a more rigid code, but the code tells a story that's very, very personal because one person's turn on is another person's turn off. Is that the case here too?

[Partner 2]

Absolutely.

[Narrator]

That doesn't mean that when you explain it, it will make her interested, but at least it helps her understand. And you, what is in it for you? This man's conflict around his fetish is immediately apparent and quite common. On the one hand, he wants to talk about it from the beginning because he needs her to know, and it is a part of his experience of being accepted. On the other hand, he himself doesn't accept it. He lives with it as a dark shadow and wonders all the time, how can I be such a good man, a person who is so devoted and driven to help others, and then have this weird part about myself that I just cannot understand? There's a great line when you want to understand fantasies. Every fantasy states the problem, the emotional thing we're trying to resolve, and it offers the solution. Because a fantasy is not just a sexual script. It's actually a code for our deepest emotional needs and wishes and fears.

[Partner 1]

And I guess I don't know what those are.

[Narrator]

We shall find out.

[Partner 2]

Well, I have a theory, actually.

[Narrator]

Go ahead.

[Partner 2]

Along those lines. On this desire of his. I love the freedom that I have with him, that I can talk about other men. I can be incredibly open and honest with him. I love that. But this goes along with his personality completely because he is so giving, he is so loving. It's a piece of that for him that he wants to give me. And he's, you know, we've talked about this at length, that he does want to give me as much pleasure and love and let me fulfill my sexual desires and do whatever I want.

[Narrator]

Fantasies are often complex psychological plots played out in a fictitious story. They are like dreams that you have to decode and to unpack. They don't make sense immediately because they bring together all kinds of disparate pieces into some coherent story that only makes sense while you dream. But when you wake up, you wonder what is all of that, about.

[Partner 2]

Looking back at his life and what I know about him. He loves to work. And he went to seminary to become a Catholic deacon. He was a Catholic priest almost with an open marriage. Right. So all kinds of, like, dichotomies all over the place. And I think that.

[Narrator]

And you love that.

[Partner 2]

Oh, I love that. I think he's incredibly, you know, that's incredibly interesting and why I'm here with him today. But the conundrum or the dilemma with this is that if I have to be with this woman as much as she wants me to be, which for me, I want him with me all the time. Right. But then he can't do his work. Then he can't be the evangelist. He can't be the, you know, he can't be the missionary man. Right. But he loves me so much that while he's gone doing his thing, you go off and be with someone else and you get pleasure. And that's okay with me because I'm going to go do this important work here, but I'm going to let the woman I love be happy, too. And even if that means I risk losing her because he does. Right. And you're willing to take that risk because I think you love the work.

[Partner 1]

You do for me. It's. I want to know that you love me in a way that it's not risking our relationship. It's not completely true about me feeling that, oh, I can go do what I want. You go, and you can go do this and find pleasure there. That's not. I've learned another person can't completely fill all the needs that you have inside you.

[Narrator]

And if you always hope that are taken care of by other men, I am relieved of the sole responsibility of having to meet all your needs. All the people who need me, they need me temporarily. I go in and out. I do my thing. I leave with a partner. We are together. So if other men please you, I don't have to do everything. I don't have to feel responsible for your happiness. And that lightens me up. And then you come back filled up and fully alive, and you come back to me. So not only am I not all responsible, but on top of it, I get a live entertainment unit fully charged into my life.

[Partner 1]

Yeah, there's that.

[Narrator]

Any of this.

[Partner 1]

There's that feeling that I get that sends me into a crisis of consciousness. Feeling guilty about the fact that you chose to allow the person that you love to go with somebody else to. Cause it's twofold. It's like it charges you run. There's that selfish piece.

[Narrator]

Oh, yeah. It is not just an altruistic gesture. We get it. It's not just because it's good for her. Fantasy is only for you, by the way. The whole thing is for you. That's the point of it.

[Partner 2]

Right? Right. But it hits my buttons, which go back to my family of origin, that they didn't care where I was, they didn't check up on me. I dated a guy who was 13 years older than me and I would hitchhike an hour to go see him, you know, and at the time, I loved it. I thought it was great. But they were very much willing to risk letting me go, which is what the feeling I get here. He's very much willing to risk losing me.

[Narrator]

I hear you.

[Partner 2]

Okay, so this as much as I understand it and part of me loves hits that I want a feeling that I belong to somebody, that someone has my back, is watching out for me.

[Narrator]

While she emphasizes the potential dangers of being with another man, what also stands out is that part of her conflict is that if you loved me, you wouldn't want to share me. Deep at the core of romantic love is the concept of exclusiveness. So I understand it. I enjoy the freedom that I can come to you and talk about my other partners, but at the same time, it sits on the belief that you mustn't love me that much or you wouldn't want to share me.

[Esther Perel]

We'll be back with a session right after this, and while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astera's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

[Narrator]

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[Narrator]

See for [e-mail] youm would like to move in together? You would like to marry again? You would like to share a home? You would like.

[Partner 2]

There's a part of me that really does want to do that, but the more I'm single that seems to be diminishing ever so slowly and I'm scared of that. I'm scared of that diminishing.

[Narrator]

And why does this man who is described as such a caretaker, responsible for the well being of so many people. Why do you feel so not safe with him?

[Partner 2]

Because.

[Narrator]

Because of his fetish or because of how your life is structured together?

[Partner 2]

Both. Both. If it were one, I probably wouldn't feel as unsafe as I do. But it's both. We're never together. And there's that peace that there are times when I'm like drawn to him and I want to just wrap myself with him. He'll say something like, about another guy, like, he'll make a reference, oh, I bet that guy would be great with you. Or like he'll make a comment of some kind that will just like, ugh, you know, And I'll be like, I'll be deflated and I'll be like, oh my God.

[Narrator]

Oh my God. What? Finish the experience. Oh my God. What's the feeling?

[Partner 2]

The feeling is I'm craving this safety and I'm like, I'm so close to him or.

[Narrator]

And he's pushing me away, and he's.

[Partner 2]

Pushing me away to another guy. He's not present with me in the moment.

[Partner 1]

Do you know that I'm maybe not totally aware of where she is emotionally in that moment?

[Narrator]

No, I'm actually not aware of where you are emotionally at that moment. Because interestingly, part of what you're saying is with my ex wife, I had the passion and the playfulness and the whole thing, but I didn't have the hug, I didn't have the holding. When I go dark, when I go down, I need to be wrapped and I need to be held. And here you are. You are the one who can offer this to me. But then when she does, you struggle to stay there. You want it, but then you evade it.

[Partner 2]

He does. Yeah.

[Partner 1]

In a way, I'm not totally connected to why I do it and why it happens. If I look at it, step outside myself and look at myself. Even though you're getting what you need.

[Narrator]

At that moment, even though I. I don't want you to go outside yourself, I want you to go inside. You see, I'm going to go inside. Even though I am getting what I want, what happens to me is.

[Partner 1]

It could be at that moment, it's the risk that your whole life and all your experiences, you're going to have to change them.

[Narrator]

My whole life.

[Partner 1]

My whole life is going to have to change.

[Partner 2]

Wow.

[Narrator]

All right, mister, take a deep breath. Make space inside here. And now let's try this again. When I, when I do.

[Partner 1]

I don't.

[Narrator]

Understand it just Describe it. I know you don't. Can I try something with you? Yeah. So I'm going to double you.

[Partner 1]

You're going to double me?

[Narrator]

Yeah. You know, it's like in Greek theater. In Greek tragedy, they have a double. And the double speaks in your ear. So when I say something that feels right, you repeat it. And if I say something that's off, you correct it. Okay?

[Partner 1]

Okay.

[Narrator]

When you hold me, as much as I'm dying to stay there and never get out of your arms. That's exactly what terrifies me, is that I'm never going to get out of your arms.

[Partner 1]

Not true.

[Narrator]

Change it.

[Partner 1]

When you hold me, I feel like I'm being recharged. And the pains of life and experience. I'm being removed from my soul to the point where I can feel free to go back out in the world to do more of the work that I'm supposed to do.

[Narrator]

When I am in your arms and you relieve me.

[Partner 1]

When I'm in your arms and you.

[Narrator]

Relieve me and I push you away is because I'm afraid. I'm never gonna wanna leave. There.

[Partner 1]

That is what it feels like. That feeling is foreign to me. There's something deep inside me that.

[Narrator]

But I'm afraid to love it too much.

[Partner 1]

Afraid to love too much.

[Narrator]

I sensed that this was hard for him to do. That switching from the pronoun you to I meant locating the experience inside of him. So I chose the technique of the double. The double talks to you, whispers in your ear. Your partner can't hear me. So I lend him my words, which he can then take over and then transfer on to her. It is a technique from Greek theater. It's the chorus. It's a technique I use quite often. I stand behind him so that he cannot see me. Neither can she. And it allows me to say all kinds of things. And if it's incorrect, he can change it and he can make it his own. So I can take a lot of risks. And I can feel free in offering the possibility for him to experience himself in a more integrated fashion. Because in this moment, he's fairly dissociated.

[Partner 2]

And what will happen if you do? What will happen if you do love too much? What will happen?

[Partner 1]

Because now the love that I feel inside. That just feels like it is to be given to many people. Is now just being given to one person. When there are thousands of other people that need something that I have to offer in the most simplest ways.

[Partner 2]

What do I say to that? I don't know what to say to that. That's an inner need or drive of yours that there's nothing I can do or say, nor would I want to.

[Narrator]

I just want you to know a little bit more about my inner conflict.

[Partner 1]

I just want you to know a little bit more about my inner conflict.

[Narrator]

I would love to stay there and never get up. And then another part of me says, duty calls me.

[Partner 1]

I would love to stay there and never leave that place with you. But it truly is like duty is calling me.

[Narrator]

But you know there's a reason somebody invented the Sabbat.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, exactly.

[Partner 1]

Do you want me to say that God rested on the seventh day?

[Narrator]

You don't know how to keep the balance. The truth is, there's a part of me that is so tired of taking care of the masses all the time. But then I feel guilty about that because it's a selfish feeling. And then I sublimate that selfish feeling through my fetish, 100%. From the I can't ask you for more, it becomes, I can't give you more. You find yourself a strong, independent woman who is not coming to you needy. She comes to you with a very clear request that is happy to play, happy to travel, happy to explore life, and happy even to explore your fantasy. But you gotta give me some sense that I belong with you, not to you. Remember, she doesn't take orders. Nobody tells her what to do. So it's not I belong to you, but I belong with you.

[Partner 1]

I feel. It's like that struggle of my life. It's like, wow, I get this really great stuff from her. The selfish piece, which I. I tend to never want to admit in anything I do. The pleasure I get from anything.

[Narrator]

Is anything that is, for you, selfish?

[Partner 1]

Yes.

[Narrator]

So she becomes your sin.

[Partner 1]

Yes.

[Narrator]

Did you know that you were becoming someone's forbidden pleasure?

[Partner 2]

Yes. We've had many conversations about this, but.

[Narrator]

What I'm saying is that every time he feels guilty about how much he likes to be with you because of how much you give to him which he feels so guilty asking or receiving, you have an argument.

[Partner 2]

Oh, yeah. Yes. Our trips have been probably the worst. The worst.

[Narrator]

Why? Because of the pleasure?

[Partner 2]

Absolutely. I'm all about it. And he's looking for something to do to redeem this time that we're just being frivolous and with nothing to do. Oh, yeah.

[Partner 1]

Not in touch?

[Narrator]

Almost, but not exactly. Okay, make your point.

[Partner 1]

I am not openly. The places that I have gone with her are beautiful. I absorb all that. I love it. But again, yeah, you're right. There's that sense of there's people who are poor.

[Partner 2]

No, no, no.

[Partner 1]

I'm spending $150 for a dinner. When there's people on the street, I'm.

[Partner 2]

All, you know, ready to escape my life and take on this new Persona just for a weekend. I can do it for a weekend. He's like, he's struggling just to have a martini at a beautiful bar.

[Narrator]

You know, massive givers are often people who totally fear never being given to. So he's giving, he's spreading himself thin. He wants to be held, but he's afraid that if he loves it too much, he's never going to want to get up because of the hunger that lives inside of him. So while he's feeding others, he is avoiding his own hunger. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

[Partner 2]

Avoiding your unfinished.

[Partner 1]

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[Partner 2]

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[Partner 1]

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[Partner 2]

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[Narrator]

Download today.

[Partner 1]

Hey, it's Cam Heyward, defensive tackle for.

[Narrator]

The Pittsburgh Steelers and host of Not Just Football podcast. The NFL draft is coming fast and over the next few episodes we're going.

[Partner 1]

To be talking about it, diving deep.

[Narrator]

And also bringing the draft party to Pittsburgh for a special live take taping to have some fun. You're not going to want to miss it. So tune in our show, Not Just Football, with me, Cam Hayward, for our special draft coverage brought to you by Verizon Business. You can find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Partner 2]

Support for the show comes from Mercury.

[Narrator]

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[Partner 2]

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[Narrator]

Where did you get that spirit, that mission, that sense of duty? How did that sense of duty become attached with A sense of guilt and self deprivation. It's one thing to want to do for others. It's another thing to feel that it's forbidden to do for yourself. You have rationalized them as if they go together. Doing for others means not doing for oneself. And every time you do for oneself, you're selfish. From sexual pleasure to emotional nurturance to a martini.

[Partner 1]

I don't need a martini to feel good about life. I can simply feel the beauty of life by walking through a garden, walking through the forest, listening to the birds, smelling the trees. I don't.

[Narrator]

I'm gonna stop you because you know why? Because I'm gonna stop you.

[Partner 1]

Anybody can do this.

[Narrator]

I'll tell you why I'm gonna stop you. I'm gonna stop you because you're about to tell me stuff that you rattle away regularly. And it's such a speech. And I'm happy to get to know your speech. But I don't have enough time here with you today to listen to your speeches. It's not really a speech, what you're saying. You feel it intensely and authentically. But you've said this a thousand times. And the point is not that you can't enjoy the flowers or that just lying down and looking at the sky can't fill you up. The problem is, why do you feel so terrible when you get a martini?

[Partner 1]

Because if I can enjoy the simple things of life that anybody can enjoy, including somebody who's homeless, then I feel okay. If I cross over that line. That's when it becomes a challenge. Sometimes I can accommodate my own, like, sense of guilt, the consciousness. It's still an absolute battle.

[Narrator]

So you succeed in making her miserable, too.

[Partner 1]

I do not mean that to happen, even though I do know that that happens. I never, ever mean that to happen to you, and I know it happen.

[Narrator]

So it becomes a class battle by which you identify with the homeless. Even though she's housing one in her own house at this point, let's not forget. But it presents like you understand the basics of life and she's frivolous and she doesn't understand how to enjoy just watching at the stars. She needs all these accoutrements that are all class symbols. And we enter into some crazy conversation. Not that there are no intensely deep conversations to be had about class, but this is a different story. What you're doing is you're rationalizing away your internal conflict over what you are allowed to enjoy and what is okay to experience pleasure over. And everything else that is delegated to the category of Sinful, excessive, frivolous, ostentatious, show off.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, you don't want to be the center of attention. He likes to be the observer.

[Partner 1]

I do my best work for other people. When I do, I don't know, I just always have the sense that, wow, how can you do that so freely when there's all this other stuff going on? I don't like to judge somebody in that way. And I try to never say it, and I've never.

[Partner 2]

Oh, no, you have said that to me in the moment. You said, there are people who are starving in the world.

[Partner 1]

Why can't we go to the 99? Why do we have to go to the 60? Restaurant is gonna cost $200 a dinner. You know what I could do with that money for kids in school? Could even pay for their own school lunches.

[Partner 2]

And were those parents, those kids would starve. Whether we're at the 99 or the soup kitchen or at.

[Narrator]

No, there's a better answer than that.

[Partner 2]

There is.

[Narrator]

Yes.

[Partner 2]

Okay.

[Narrator]

Because if you do this and he does his version, you will polarize in a split second and it becomes an either or, sacrifice or indulgence. The oldest religious debate, and you will have no relationship.

[Partner 2]

Right.

[Narrator]

You have to get out of the all or nothing. When they go out to dinner, she enjoys the experience. He will succeed in ruining the experience for her because of how much it cost. It's like, how can you enjoy your meal when other people are hungry on this planet? And when you are the person who doesn't know how to eat because you deny your hunger, because you're continuously busy feeding others, you sometimes have a way of making the pleasure of other people's food go sour.

[Partner 1]

And here's the odd thing, because those are the things that she says she loves about me that I bring to the table for her.

[Narrator]

Yeah, but you're not asking her a question. You're making a statement.

[Partner 1]

Right.

[Narrator]

You know, you are both totally pushing each other to the extreme when you talk together. You know, you rarely say, I'm enjoying sitting here with you. It becomes the only way I can sit here is by telling you all the wrong reasons for why one shouldn't be here, and you destroy the experience. Of course.

[Partner 2]

Right, because guilt is comfortable. And I'm gonna go to my comfortable place of I deserve this, my life sucks a lot of the time. And this, having a martini, looking at the ocean for an hour is all I ask.

[Narrator]

You don't have to make a plea for yourself, right?

[Partner 2]

No, I'm describing why it is.

[Narrator]

I know it becomes Mrs. Entitlement and Mr. Sacrifice.

[Partner 2]

Absolutely.

[Narrator]

Are on a date. How fun.

[Partner 2]

Absolutely.

[Narrator]

You know, you see, both of you come from a place of deprivation, but you say, that's where I need to be because others don't have more or have less. And you say, I give plenty. Yes, and I'm not doing anything excessive. Why are you making me justify this and make me feel bad over something that I think is perfectly okay? And on occasion, you think is more than okay. You think you deserve it. You see? And so then it becomes a conversation about entitlement and deprivation. And deserving is the entitlement of the deprived. Deprived people don't just say, I want something, it's okay. They need to deserve it in order to muster the energy to allow themselves to do it. So it becomes a kind of a dialogue with the deprivation. How much have I given of myself to now feel like it's okay for me to give this to myself? It's a complete economic system, right?

[Partner 2]

And for him, that giving and deprivation has to happen almost on a daily basis. Where I say, that will even out over time. You know, I may be in a time where I'm feasting, right? I'm in a time of harvest. And I'm gonna indulge in it because I know that in the past I've been in a time of famine in my life, and in the future, I may very well be in a time of famine.

[Partner 1]

Those are the pieces of you that I absolutely envy. The way you can do that. The way you just can be at a comfort level with yourself to do that.

[Narrator]

But you are with her. And you don't say, honey, teach me this, teach me how to do it in a way that doesn't demand self destruction. Because that's the only way I know how to get there.

[Partner 1]

The way I learn is by observing.

[Narrator]

Yeah, but you don't observe. You criticize. You're not watching it and saying, ha. How does she do this? Could I. You're going down an entire list of reasons why this is a terrible thing she's doing.

[Partner 1]

I don't think I criticize or control or judge her in that way.

[Narrator]

No, what is it?

[Partner 1]

It's more, this is how I am. Because it becomes a danger to me that you're being pulled away from yourself.

[Narrator]

From yourself. Because you're having a drink, my dear.

[Partner 1]

Not so much a drink, but a drink that.

[Narrator]

Can you find a similar fetish in the bar that you have found in sex? Because you solved that dilemma in sex in a fantastic way. God forbid. I would have so much pleasure with you, I'll make somebody else have experience it with you. But it, of course, Whatever the pleasure you have with another man is actually my pleasure, but I didn't have to live it directly. So I can pretend that it's not mine, when in fact it's completely mine. Because that's the whole purpose of the fantasy in the first place. What a wonderful twist of conscience that is. Brilliant.

[Partner 1]

That is a twist of conscience.

[Narrator]

Brilliant.

[Partner 1]

So say that is the substitute. It's a substitute that I wish was not there. I really wish it wasn't there.

[Narrator]

A fetish is a fetish and stays. But the degree with which you experience it is totally. You have an enormous amount of guilt about pleasure. They are completely interrelated, these two. Now, there is no inherent fundamental contradiction in giving and also giving to oneself. Healer, heal thyself.

[Partner 1]

That becomes the question on where is the balance? So that I don't judge her in an unconscious way. That I don't.

[Narrator]

No, your judgment is not unconscious. Your judgment is blatant.

[Partner 1]

But judgment is hurtful.

[Narrator]

Yeah. So it's the way in which you come in and out, the way in which you do your two days. Now, you could say, that's all I want and that's all I have. And then she'll have to make the decision, but instead you turn it into a crisis of conscience, and then she's lured into having to deal with your own internal turmoil. You know, you create a false dichotomy here. You're the giver, she's the taker. You're the. The sacrificial one. She's the entitled one. In effect, you know, you're controlling the relationship at this point because the one who wants less generally controls the relationship, unless there is coercion. And she's not asking you to be the only one or even the first one. She's just asking you to be one important one. And not only your nurse. Like, she's the well that you come to replenish yourself at when you're depleted.

[Partner 2]

Right now, even though I'm in this, you know, I have the plan B. I'm able to see other people. I'm not committed to you. I. You know, you are getting everything that you want out of this relationship. You are getting everything you need. I'm not. You come to me when you want. I'm there for you. And I willingly am there happily because you're wonderful. And when you want to go, you go.

[Narrator]

Is it sustainable emotionally for you?

[Partner 2]

No, it's not. It's not sustainable emotionally. It's not what I want.

[Narrator]

What would you want?

[Partner 2]

I would want more of him.

[Narrator]

What?

[Partner 2]

Like you just said, I want to be the important. I want to be in the top three of important ones, not even the number one. You know, cook me dinner once in a while. Be home when I get home from work.

[Partner 1]

I have done that.

[Narrator]

You wait for the one thing you can disagree with and then you psst, insert yourself when 90% of everything she's just said is rather accurate.

[Partner 1]

Why are we together? What do we really like about each other?

[Narrator]

Well, you like a lot of things about each other and there is absolutely no need to remind yourself why you are together. You get into a whole argument with her about this is not okay and this is more than what I do and this is not me and this is not my values and this. But you're living this story slightly under a false premise. The false premise is that you present yourself as the charitable person who needs to be to service to everybody else. And it's terribly conflicted about your own pleasure and your own ability to experience nurturing for yourself. But you actually do exactly what you want. You come when you want, you leave when you want. You are with those that you want when you want. And when she asks you to do certain things, there's no other reason to do these things than because they're important to her. There's nothing inherently anti catholic about making your woman feel special. And what you say is, I love to come to you because of how special you make me feel. And she says, I love to make you feel special. And on occasion, could you do the same with me? This is your mission when you leave here. If you want this relationship to survive, you will be a better guy. When you don't try so hard to be a good guy.

[Esther Perel]

You just heard a clap Classic session of Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esterra's monthly newsletter, go to estherparel.com Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity. In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website esteraparelle.com.

[Narrator]

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[Narrator]

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