Questions You Aren't Allowed to Ask

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Questions You Aren't Allowed to Ask"
Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Release Date: October 28, 2024

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Introduction

In this poignant episode of Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel, listeners are invited into a deeply emotional counseling session between a long-term couple grappling with issues of sexuality, secrecy, and familial impact. Esther Perel navigates the intricate dynamics of a 19-year relationship strained by hidden truths and unspoken conflicts. This summary delves into the core discussions, insights, and resolutions presented during the session.

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The Struggle with Sexual Identity and Secrecy

Partner 2's Confession and Guilt

• Emerging Secret: Partner 2 reveals her internal battle with her sexual identity, expressing shame and guilt over her 19-year struggle to acknowledge her homosexuality publicly.

  • Partner 1: "[...] I still struggle with saying I'm gay. Holding hands in public like it still bothers me." [(00:00-00:14)]
  • Partner 2: "We've been now 19 years together and I still struggle with saying I'm gay[...]"

• Impact on Relationship: The secrecy has led to a lack of sexual intimacy and growing resentment between the partners, creating a fragile atmosphere where both feel constrained.

  • Partner 2: "We have no sexual relationship at all and haven't for a long time and there's just a lot of resentment and guilt." [(02:57-03:07)]
  • Esther Perel: "Shame and secrecy are among the more corrosive elements of a relationship and of a family." [(03:07-03:27)]

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Navigating the Origin of the Relationship

Unveiling the Hidden Relationship

• Dual Lives: Partner 2 discloses her secret relationship with a woman, which began over a decade into her marriage. This revelation highlights the long-term concealment and its repercussions on her marriage and family life.

  • Partner 2: "I was married and I have two kids[...] our friendship kind of turned into a relationship and stayed that way for a long time." [(03:36-04:10)]
  • Esther Perel: "This is a couple that is organized around a secret." [(02:18-02:24)]

• Justifying the Divorce: Partner 2 attempts to rationalize her divorce by claiming lack of love for her husband, masking her true feelings for her partner.

  • Partner 2: "I was just trying to justify in my head that I wasn't getting divorced for her. I was getting divorced because I wasn't in love with him anymore." [(05:53-06:04)]
  • Esther Perel: "Explain the difference for me. What would it represent to say I don't love my husband anymore? And what would it represent to say I love this woman." [(06:04-06:16)]

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Impact on Children and Family Dynamics

Secrets Across Generations

• Children's Awareness: The children are aware of their mother's relationship, but the lack of open communication leaves lingering confusion about the nature of this bond.

  • Partner 2: "We never... just have two moms." [(09:30-10:07)]
  • Partner 1: "When her father's been in the hospital, he doesn't tell her until he's home." [(14:00-14:22)]

• Emotional Legacy: Esther Perel emphasizes how secrets create lasting emotional scars that affect not only the partners but also their children, perpetuating cycles of silence and misunderstanding.

  • Esther Perel: "Secrets have legacies. Secrets travel across generations. And they amputate." [(29:59-30:26)]
  • Partner 2: "I've always been so concerned about what other people think about me that I want everybody to just be happy." [(13:45-13:59)]

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Therapeutic Interventions and Steps Towards Healing

Owning the Truth

• Acknowledging the Past: Esther encourages Partner 2 to openly address her past actions, including the affair and the resultant pain caused to her husband and family.

  • Esther Perel: "You need to learn to incorporate in your story pieces for which you have deep regret[...] so that you can turn the shame into responsibility and then free yourself." [(15:17-15:48)]
  • Partner 2: "I want to tell you the story. I met her when you guys were little[...] It became more intimate." [(27:02-27:34)]

• Apologizing and Forgiveness: The session progresses to Partner 2 expressing heartfelt apologies to her ex-husband, seeking forgiveness to release the lingering guilt and shame.

  • Partner 2: "I need to apologize for letting it go so long[...] I'm sorry for hurting you." [(22:06-22:59)]
  • Esther Perel: "You are apologizing to do the right thing. He knew long before you and he stayed friends with you and he stayed friends with your partner." [(23:16-23:32)]

Reframing the Narrative

• Dual Stories: Esther guides Partner 2 to embrace both the painful and beautiful aspects of her journey, encouraging her to see her identity and relationships as multifaceted rather than defined by secrecy.
  • Esther Perel: "Your story is a rich, multilayered story[...] The affair may be over, but it's a kind of a clandestine living." [(15:53-17:19)]
  • Partner 2: "I never looked at it as the two sides of a story. For as much bad there was good." [(51:02-51:15)]

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Resolving Power Dynamics and Communication Issues

Parent-Child Roles in the Relationship

• Role Reversal: The couple struggles with imbalanced power dynamics, where one partner adopts a parental role, stifling adult intimacy and communication.

  • Esther Perel: "There is a power dynamic in this relationship. There is one woman who is definitely economically much more well off." [(44:41-45:39)]
  • Partner 2: "I get frustrated because I want you and I need you to step up so we're equal and not this parent child." [(43:14-43:22)]

• Breaking the Cycle: Esther emphasizes the need for both partners to act as equals and foster adult intimacy to heal the relationship's foundational issues.

  • Esther Perel: "If you want to be treated as an adult and as a lover, then you also need to act as such." [(43:44-43:54)]
  • Partner 1: "I know that I don't believe in myself and my abilities and that's a huge stumbling block for me." [(49:13-49:42)]

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Conclusion and Path Forward

Embracing a New Beginning

• Future Possibilities: Esther Perel highlights the couple's potential to redefine their relationship by acknowledging past secrets, fostering open communication, and embracing mutual respect and love.

  • Esther Perel: "Life is ahead of you. You are in a major life cycle transition. It's filled with possibilities." [(50:00-50:38)]
  • Partner 2: "I have two great girls and they're happy and successful." [(09:25-09:30)]

• Holistic Healing: By integrating both the struggles and the love that sustained them, the couple can move towards a more authentic and fulfilling relationship, free from the shadows of past secrets.

  • Esther Perel: "You have only focused on one side. And it's not the same to say this is who I am versus saying I'm gay." [(51:00-51:15)]
  • Partner 2: "I want that energy in your life." [(50:39-50:43)]

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Notable Quotes

• Partner 2: "I've been so concerned about what other people think about me that I want everybody to just be happy." [(13:45-13:59)]
• Esther Perel: "Secrets have legacies. Secrets travel across generations. And they amputate." [(29:59-30:26)]
• Esther Perel: "You need to learn to incorporate in your story pieces for which you have deep regret[...] so that you can turn the shame into responsibility and then free yourself." [(15:17-15:48)]
• Partner 1: "I know that I don't believe in myself and my abilities and that's a huge stumbling block for me." [(49:13-49:42)]

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Insights and Takeaways

1. The Detrimental Effects of Secrecy: Concealing one's true self and living a double life can erode the foundational trust and intimacy in a relationship, leading to long-term emotional damage.

2. Importance of Open Communication: Addressing painful truths and fostering honest dialogue is crucial for healing and rebuilding trust within a relationship and the broader family unit.

3. Balancing Roles in Relationships: Avoiding parental dynamics and striving for equality ensures healthier interactions and preserves adult intimacy and mutual respect.

4. Embracing Multifaceted Identities: Acknowledging and integrating all aspects of one's identity, including past mistakes and current truths, leads to more authentic and fulfilling relationships.

5. Healing Through Apology and Forgiveness: Taking responsibility for past actions and seeking forgiveness can liberate individuals from lingering guilt and pave the way for emotional freedom.

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This episode masterfully illustrates the complexities of human relationships, the challenges of embracing one's true identity, and the transformative power of therapy in navigating deeply rooted emotional landscapes.

Transcript

[Partner 1]

19 years ago. It's not like today. It's cool now to be gay or curious or whatever it is you are, but back then it was really shameful.

[Narrator]

What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's and each episode is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Partner 2]

We've been now 19 years together and I still struggle with saying I'm gay. Holding hands in public like it still bothers me.

[Partner 1]

It's always kind of felt like she's been ashamed of me or our relationship.

[Esther Perel]

This is a couple that is organized around a secret.

[Partner 2]

You know, my thought was not to get divorced and then the next day have her like move into the house.

[Partner 1]

She said, I don't want him going out the front door and you coming in the back.

[Esther Perel]

A secret means I can't talk about this thing, but then I can't talk about the next thing because it could lead back to this thing. And so it starts to grow inside a family and it becomes a code of conduct.

[Partner 1]

I walk on eggshells around her because she has a lot of frustration with me.

[Partner 2]

We have no sexual relationship at all and haven't for a long time and there's just a lot of resentment and guilt.

[Esther Perel]

Shame and secrecy are among the more corrosive elements of a relationship and of a family and it is time for some of the secrecy and some of the silencing to be removed.

[Narrator]

This is. Where should we begin with Esther Perel.

[Partner 2]

I was married and I have two kids and we met 10 plus years into my marriage and then we were friends for probably almost a year. And you were friends with my ex husband. And our friendship kind of turned into a relationship and stayed that way for a long time. For seven, eight years, I kind of was a soccer moment. You know, living in the suburbs with kids and my age.

[Esther Perel]

Can I plead cultural ignorance for one moment?

[Partner 2]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

What's a soccer mom?

[Partner 2]

Oh, so my kids both played soccer. So like every Saturday I'd be at the soccer fields and I'd be involved just in all their activities and be with all the other moms.

[Esther Perel]

And a soccer mom is a woman who is forgotten that she's a woman and she's only a mother.

[Partner 2]

I think just that kids are a huge part. Right. So like all their activities in school.

[Esther Perel]

So she's a mom.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Partner 2]

And then our relationship was kind of like the down low kind of thing. Like it was like two lives. I was living for a really long time balancing wanting to make everybody happy. So like keeping my ex husband and kids happy and then keeping her happy and feeling very guilty because of what I was doing still.

[Esther Perel]

You are?

[Partner 2]

Yeah. No, there's a lot of guilt. He never knew, but he probably knew. And eventually he said that he was ready to separate and get a divorce. And as soon as he gave me that out, I took it. You know, my thought was not to get divorced and then the next day have her like move into the house. Like I wanted to be able to.

[Partner 1]

She said, I don't want him going out the front door and you coming in the back.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, but you had already come through the front door and the back for eight years.

[Partner 1]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And every other window. You were inhabiting this house in every place?

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Why suddenly the pretense?

[Partner 2]

I think I was just trying to justify in my head that I wasn't getting divorced for her. I was getting divorced because I wasn't in love with him anymore.

[Esther Perel]

Explain the difference for me. What would it represent to say I don't love my husband anymore? And what would it represent to say I love this woman?

[Partner 2]

I just had a lot of guilt and a lot of shame, and I think I still do to this day.

[Esther Perel]

Would it be different if this was a man?

[Partner 2]

Yeah, probably a little bit more shame, less shame. Different shame, probably. Well, probably about the same. I mean, Hindsight's kind of 2020 that I did realize that I was attracted to women. You know, I got married very young.

[Esther Perel]

When you look back, do you think there was a part of you that sought to seal, to conceal even from yourself, a part of you that was very scary? And that if you went with all the accoutrements of the sanctioned, official life that you were meant to have, then somehow I didn't know. You forget about yourself as a woman and your sexuality and your attractions?

[Partner 2]

Probably, yes. Like, I didn't ever question even, like, in college or anything. I just.

[Esther Perel]

Some questions are not allowed.

[Partner 2]

It wasn't anything I thought about. I just. I kind of did what I was supposed to do kind of thing.

[Esther Perel]

There may have been personal and familial reasons for why she had to hide, but clearly there was also a very strong message in society that set her up for the shame and for the hiding about her sexuality. And so our survival strategies are adaptations to a reality.

[Sponsor Voice]

It's just that when we continue doing.

[Esther Perel]

The same 20 years later, when our reality has completely shifted, then our strategy is no longer adaptive.

[Partner 2]

She stuck around and waited for me, and I was ready. And.

[Esther Perel]

Eight years, that's a long time waiting.

[Partner 2]

I know. And I just. I still have such a hard time with that. It just was a long time of lying.

[Esther Perel]

So a part of you still experiences a lot of conflicts about your origins together?

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And until the origin story can be retold, you will always feel compromised when you think about the future?

[Partner 2]

Yes. Probably.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. I should finish with a question mark. It's not a statement, it's a question. But you talk about the origin story as if it was yesterday.

[Partner 2]

It still bothers me. I have a hard time. Even. We've been now 19 years together, and I still struggle with saying I'm gay, saying, you know, holding hands in public. Like, I just. And it's all me. I know it's. It's me. It's just. I don't know. I just. And then I tell people, like, I have two great girls and they're happy and successful and.

[Esther Perel]

And they have no problem saying, my mom is gay.

[Partner 2]

We never. You know, I had initial conversations with them way back when you moved in, and that just never really came up again. It was like, you've always.

[Partner 1]

The older one was surprised. She thought I was just best friend.

[Esther Perel]

For how long?

[Partner 1]

Eight years. Until she.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. But now.

[Partner 2]

Oh, no, now they know. I mean, now they.

[Partner 1]

Oh, yeah.

[Partner 2]

But it's just not something we talk about. But, I mean, they know, and they know that.

[Partner 1]

But the younger one, she was okay because she went to school with triplets that had two moms.

[Partner 2]

And I think they don't consider. I mean, I guess they do like a mom. I don't know.

[Partner 1]

Okay, so so far she said, I, me, my house, my kids. There's not a lot of plurality in any of this.

[Esther Perel]

You noticed? Oh, well, yeah.

[Partner 1]

So for the whole eight years that he waited, he was at work or he was at school or he was doing whatever, and I would be over doing homework, we'd eat dinner, I'd read books, I'd tuck him in. I did all that stuff. The younger one will say to me now, for example, happy other Mother's Day. And I'm like, yes, I have a title. I'm another mother. I love them like they're mine. And.

[Esther Perel]

And they have never known how to call you because you have actually never been named by you.

[Partner 2]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

What's happening is there's a part of you that is conflicted. And so you don't talk about certain things and you think that if you don't talk about them, they don't exist. So you've never talked about who you are with your ex husband. You've never talked to your daughters. And I could imagine if I speak with them, they'll tell me, you know, my mom lives with her girlfriend, they're a lesbian couple, It's a non issue for them. But since you've never given them the authorization, things remain unnamed. And then you create this interesting question of what makes a mother the person who gives birth or the person who parents them. At what point do you actually become a parent, a mother? And the name is one thing, the meaning is something else, and the meaning is what conveys the legitimacy of the relationship. And in a way, your partner has been in a crisis of legitimacy from the moment she met you. You've never really officialized her.

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And I think the one who needs officializing is you. It's like you need a coming out ceremony at 50. You know, it's your bat Mitzvah.

[Partner 2]

I feel like, though I would have to tell the full story to my girls. Very few people know about the eight years, you know, and everybody's in a good place. Like, he's happy.

[Esther Perel]

Don't think that everybody's in a good place. You've got a woman sitting right next to you who is not in enough of a good place. Neither are you, for that matter.

[Partner 2]

I think about the girls and I feel like if I was to tell them.

[Esther Perel]

You think they haven't answered the question, what was this woman doing in their house all the years before?

[Partner 2]

I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, no, no, it's because you are in such denial that you attribute the same denial to them.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I'm not saying you should go and tell them anything yet, but you have a story in your head that anything that moves would lead you to the big revelation of your debauchery of eight years to your daughters. And then you get into a panic attack, and then you choke, as you're doing right now. And then the story and the conversation is over. And so this is clogged.

[Partner 2]

Yes. I've just. I've always been so concerned about what other people think about me that I want everybody to just be happy. And I feel like if I don't.

[Partner 1]

May I interject?

[Esther Perel]

You ask her.

[Partner 1]

May I interject?

[Partner 2]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

Are you the expert on her history?

[Partner 1]

No, I just wanted to throw a little. So, for example, when her father's been in the hospital, he doesn't tell her until he's home. Like, nothing bad ever happens till it's fixed already.

[Partner 2]

I had breast cancer at age 40 and has still never told my. My father. I even didn't tell my girls till after I kind of knew what was going to happen. I feel like, why worry him or anybody? Because I have her, and she was there and took amazing care of me.

[Esther Perel]

That is the way you talk to yourself day in, day out.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And in the course of not talking about that, you talk about nothing. And you've never even been able to say, I had a love story. Your thought is, I cheated on my husband for eight years and I feel terrible. But there's also, I had this woman who I love dearly and who waited for me, and I couldn't believe that she stuck around. And it's been the biggest gift in my life. So that gets banned, too.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. I don't know. It's hard to tell a story that doesn't make you feel good. That I feel shameful for.

[Esther Perel]

Pieces of it.

[Partner 2]

Pieces of it.

[Esther Perel]

So you need to learn to incorporate in your story pieces for which you have deep regret, pieces for which you apologize, pieces for which you ever go to your ex and you tell him, what I did back then was terrible, and you own your shit.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You own the pieces for which you feel remorse, regret, shame. So that you can turn the shame into responsibility and then free yourself. And then you can also claim the other parts of the story that are beautiful.

[Partner 2]

I know. That's. So that makes a lot of sense.

[Esther Perel]

We're gonna practice a couple. Your story is a rich, multilayered story, and we never get to see its full colors because you take the few things for which you feel bad about and then it bans everything. So your daughters live with secrets. Your ex husband has never been spoken to. You can't touch in public, you can't say what you are. She never gets a proper name. The affair may be over, but it's a kind of a clandestine living. What I decide to do is to have the therapy room become the safe space to have the conversations that she has never had, to hear herself say out loud that which she has never dared to say. The mere thought of having to talk about any of this brings up tremendous anxiety and panic for her. It is so painful, but the fact is that her panic creates a rejection of her partner. I am working on the couple and I am working on how her internal feelings affect the relationship, not just how they affect her. That's the difference.

[Narrator]

We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad free, click the Try Free button to subscribe to Astaire's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Esther Perel]

Yum.

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[Esther Perel]

Are you with me?

[Partner 2]

I am.

[Esther Perel]

You breathing?

[Partner 2]

I am, yes.

[Esther Perel]

So your ex husband. Okay, name him.

[Partner 2]

Just call him John. It's just a simple name. Simple guy.

[Esther Perel]

I'm gonna put John in this chair.

[Partner 2]

Okay?

[Esther Perel]

I want you to see him. Sit there.

[Partner 2]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

So, my dear John, this is so uncomfortable to be talking to you, but you cannot imagine how many conversations I've had in my head with you.

[Partner 2]

Why would I say this in your own words?

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Partner 2]

This is very uncomfortable for me and I had this conversation with you in my head numerous times because you deserve to know the truth.

[Esther Perel]

But the truth is about what I did. Or the truth is about how sorry I am that I hurt you or that I neglected you or that I stopped being your wife or.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, I mean, the truth is all of that. It's that you deserve better than what I was giving you. And I was very selfish and I didn't want to hurt him.

[Esther Perel]

But I know I did.

[Partner 2]

But I definitely know I did.

[Esther Perel]

And I really want to own that one so that I can set you free. And me.

[Partner 2]

I just need to apologize for letting it go so long and for not being honest. I owe you that. I owe you that for you and for the sake of the girls. And I don't know if I could apologize enough. I don't know if that would make him happy.

[Esther Perel]

I think you're not apologizing to make him happy. You are apologizing to do the right thing. He knew long before you and he stayed friends with you and he stayed friends with your partner. You can tell him about how much you appreciate that he didn't send you to the wolves.

[Partner 2]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Your feeling bad isn't going to make him happy one iota. You're telling him how much you appreciate what he has done over these decades. That may. Do you know the difference?

[Partner 2]

Yeah, I do know the difference and I. I agree that he needs to know that. I do appreciate you want to say to him one more time, I appreciate your being patient with me and you've been a friend to me even after all of this.

[Esther Perel]

And I also appreciate that you never judged my love for my woman.

[Partner 2]

That he never judged my love. I don't know. I mean, I'm sorry. And I hope you're happy because I want. That's really what I want, is for you to be happy. Thank you for everything and being yourself and.

[Esther Perel]

Never shaming me for being gay.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, I never shaming me for being who I am gonna name it for being gay. It never made me feel bad for that.

[Esther Perel]

One of the consequences of dissociation over many, many years is to be detected.

[Sponsor Voice]

In the affect that people bring to.

[Esther Perel]

What they feel and to what they say. Whether she says I'm sorry, whether she says I fell in love, whether she says I want you to be happy. It all is said with the same affect. And that similarity of unit tonal voice is quite telling as the long term consequence of dissociation. And how are you doing right now?

[Partner 2]

I mean, I'm glad I can say that to him because he deserves that. I need to be pushed because I.

[Esther Perel]

Hope it's okay because that's what I'm doing.

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

From 1 to 10. How much of your comfort zone are we now?

[Partner 2]

I was pretty up there, eight or nine.

[Esther Perel]

I would love to ask you what it was like to hear. And I'm going to first tell you how admiring I am of your patients and then I will ask you. But we're going to keep her in her stretch zone for a bit longer. Okay.

[Partner 1]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Are you enjoying this? Maybe that's not the right.

[Partner 1]

I don't know how to answer that. Because if I'm enjoying it. No, I think it's very important. And I'll.

[Sponsor Voice]

Good.

[Esther Perel]

The girls.

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

The girls who you've been thinking are ensnared in your secret and who are probably waiting to receive the permission to finally talk to you, but they can't talk to you because you've given them the message that you can't talk about any of this. And so this is about undoing the legacy of a secret, but also about who you are and how they could get to know you better. And then hopefully you would get to know them better. Here they are.

[Partner 2]

I mean, I would just tell them that I.

[Esther Perel]

They're right here.

[Partner 2]

I want to tell you the story. I mean, I want to tell you the story of us and what really happened. And, you know, I met her when you guys were little and she was part of your life as a friend and as a surrogate parent and was there to help, to raise you really. And then it became more than a friendship. And.

[Esther Perel]

What does that mean? It became more than a friendship. What did it become?

[Partner 2]

I fell in love. And it was more intimate. It was more. There's a connection that I really never had with anybody else and a freedom that I never had before. And I felt more myself than I had, but I still struggled with, you know.

[Esther Perel]

No, no. Before you go to the struggle, if you describe only your inner tumult, it doesn't explain enough why you did all of what you did. One dismantles a whole family because there is something more powerful and more compelling that demands it. That is a legacy with which they can do something. A level of truth to yourself, a level of truth to your feelings, a level of truth to your heart. Part of why you are resentful all the time, not all the reasons, but part of it is because you are angry with her, as if she represents the secret that you cannot unveil.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, that's probably very true.

[Esther Perel]

Every time you look at her, you feel guilty and ashamed. And she's become the representation of that dark, abjected part of you. And the story of a love story, the story of I felt more free, more true, more turned on, has disappeared.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So you can't be sexual either. You can't touch her either. You can't. Everything becomes stifled. Keep going.

[Partner 2]

During the time of us being together, I realized about myself that although I still love your father. It was just a completely. It was a different type of love. And that my love with her was allowing me to be who I was, my true self. And my world revolves around you guys. And I never wanted to hurt you at all. And I put you first and what I wanted or needed second.

[Esther Perel]

Secrets have legacies. Secrets travel across generations. And they amputate. They actually amputate. It's not that everything must be said. I think we understand the difference. It doesn't have to give all the details, but there is something about the irony of thinking that this would actually protect her daughters. It doesn't.

[Partner 2]

I should have been honest at a much earlier point. I just didn't know how. Can't kind of help who you fall in love with. And certainly falling in love with her hit me like I had no idea. It was never even in my head. So I'm sorry for hurting you. And.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, there's one more thing.

[Partner 2]

What's the one more thing?

[Esther Perel]

I actually want to talk to you. Not just because I want to apologize for that time, but also because by creating this silence, I have probably blocked so many avenues for connection, for conversation, for showing you the challenges of a woman being true to herself.

[Partner 2]

Yes, that's true. I want to be able to have open conversations about your lives and my life and our good and bad times. And I got to stop protecting you to the point that you can't. I have to give you, I guess, more credit. And I'm sorry for all that. And I just. I hope you can find forgiveness and we can move forward to be in a better place than we are now.

[Esther Perel]

Good.

[Sponsor Voice]

We are in the midst of our.

[Esther Perel]

Session and there is still so much to talk about.

[Sponsor Voice]

We need to take a brief break.

[Esther Perel]

So stay with us.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Esther Perel]

What's it like to listen to all this?

[Partner 1]

It felt good to hear you say that. And I heard a couple things about me in there too, which was nice. I know the hardest one for you to talk to was John, and I know how freeing that is because to your horror, at the younger one's college graduation, I went over and gave him a hug, but the girl's anxiousness disappeared.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Partner 1]

And they're like, okay, this is good. We're all going to have a good weekend together as a whole intermingled extended family.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, they need the permission and the freedom and they need to know that they can call her mom without it upsetting you. Or other mom or any other word that refers to the relationship that they have. Which is.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, no, I. I love that. I want that. I want.

[Esther Perel]

How would they know?

[Partner 2]

I think just part of my struggle has been that I felt like over the years that you've been a mom. When it was convenient and not on a steady basis. We'd go to like school performances and things like that.

[Partner 1]

And every single one.

[Esther Perel]

There is the past and how it impacts the presence, and then there is the present. The everyday life of these two women and their bickering, their ability and inability to resolve conflict, their power dynamic. And now we need to address some of those. What if she's a different parent from you?

[Partner 2]

Well, it definitely is. I just.

[Partner 1]

It's also been a very slippery slope because when they were younger, and it's like, meet the teacher Day, and I'm like, let's go. Let's meet the teacher. No, no, no, you can't do that.

[Partner 2]

I pick and choose.

[Esther Perel]

Right. If I may use the same word you do at your convenience.

[Partner 2]

Yes, you're right.

[Esther Perel]

But the two of you can do an inventory of each time when the other one didn't show up or the other one did not get included. Or you can do an inventory of each time that the other person did show up and was included. And given that the outcome has been really wonderful and the girls are doing really well, I don't see the point of a negative inventory or at least of the exclusivity of a negative inventory, when there is just as much of the other.

[Partner 2]

That's very true.

[Esther Perel]

So do you have big garbage bins near your houses? Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff that needs to be thrown in there.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, I need to just let that stuff go.

[Esther Perel]

And would it help you if you took this whole pad and you wrote the various things that you've been holding onto?

[Partner 2]

Yeah, I feel like that's something that we could do. Make it an actual, like, throwing away of stuff.

[Esther Perel]

Rattle down quickly if you.

[Partner 1]

Go ahead.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. You just don't let go of anything and that you will pick and choose what's important. And there's not a lot of accountability or responsibility. Like clean out your life and not make excuses and blame other people for this.

[Esther Perel]

By the way, it's all been said a thousand times.

[Partner 2]

Yes, it has.

[Esther Perel]

It's produced absolutely nothing. It's narrow, it's rigid, and it's fundamentally boring and deadening.

[Partner 2]

Yes, that is very true.

[Esther Perel]

That doesn't mean it's not true.

[Partner 2]

No, I understand, but it's useless. I feel like I almost have to, though, keep reminding her of it.

[Esther Perel]

Has it been useful?

[Partner 2]

No.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Partner 2]

I feel like I'm a parent, you know, and she's a child, and I don't want to be the parent.

[Esther Perel]

And you do understand that when there is a parent and a child, there is never any sex?

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Because if your head is screwed up right on your shoulders, there should not be sex between A parent and a child. Correct.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So if this remains the emotional organization of your relationship, sex will be out of the relationship.

[Partner 2]

Yes, very true.

[Esther Perel]

And I'm not just talking about sex. I'm talking about physicality, affection, touch, the entire adult erotic dimension of your relationship.

[Partner 2]

And I think that it's that resentment about not being that equal partner that has caused a lot of this.

[Esther Perel]

We will need to find out a better way to ask. What you ask may be totally legit, but you're going about it in a way that hasn't given you what you want.

[Partner 2]

I feel like I've asked. I feel like at times over the years I've actually begged and was really, truly honest and open with what I needed from her. And then there was never any follow up action to that. Oh, it kind of like came to the point where we sold the house because I was drowning financially. And I mean, she took care of things around the house and did the laundry and all that, but at the end of the day, like bills weren't getting paid or things were, you know, and I couldn't. I begged and I pleaded and I got a lot of pushback. You know, I don't want to sell the house, I don't want to do this. And. And I'm like, so let's figure out a way to keep it. But it never happened.

[Esther Perel]

So you make certain decisions.

[Partner 2]

Yeah, I did.

[Esther Perel]

That's good.

[Partner 2]

I do. I have to.

[Esther Perel]

Because that is actually the way I imagine it working the best.

[Partner 2]

Yeah. And I did. I said, you know what we're doing, we're selling the house. And it ended up working out. She just. There needs to be consequences and there's no consequences.

[Esther Perel]

No, no. That's parental talk.

[Partner 2]

I know it is parental talk.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you. Still, I feel like, let me mete out equal justice for a moment. Anytime there is a person who takes on the parental role, there is somebody on the other side who draws it out, doesn't like it, but knows exactly what to do. And then you can be a petulant teenager.

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

That asserts her autonomy in rebellion and in defiance and in reaction to. So if you want to be treated as an adult and as a lover, then you also need to act as such.

[Sponsor Voice]

I challenge the woman who has taken.

[Esther Perel]

On the parental role. And I see the glee on the face of the other as if I'm scolding and. Yes, yes. But it is equally important for her to know that if there is a parent, it's because there is a child or a teenager. And that teenager draws out of the other person. The parental response. The same way that the parent draws out of the other. A childlike response. One of the golden rules of couples is that we actually make the other.

[Partner 1]

She doesn't fight with anyone in the world. She's the nicest person you'll ever meet. She loves to fight with me. I could never grasp why something that she said earlier turned on a light in my head.

[Esther Perel]

Which one?

[Partner 1]

And it was about the resentment. It was a representation of secret and shameful. And that made a lot of sense because I never understood why I was a punching bag. Like, why me?

[Partner 2]

I get frustrated because I want you and I need you to step up so we're equal and not this parent child. And then I get.

[Esther Perel]

But the stepping up is not just in the management of everyday life. No, the stepping up would also be her being able to be an adult with you. And that means she touches you, she kisses you, she makes love to you, she holds you. She shows up in that capacity too. So it's a collusion on both sides.

[Partner 2]

Yes, that's true. I mean, it is. It's. It's. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And so each one says to the other, I can't change until you do yours first. In French, it's a very polite version. It's apres vous, you first. But in French, it's after you. You are in touch with her resentments of you, but she is in touch with your defiance of her.

[Partner 2]

I feel like there's so many excuses that she is super smart and she gets frustrated because she's not. She can do so much.

[Esther Perel]

She has to go figure herself out.

[Partner 2]

I agree 100%.

[Esther Perel]

You're saying that to her in the way you do. The only power she gets is the power of no. The more you say you can, the more. The only autonomy she has is to say no. Now, that is not a good dynamic.

[Partner 2]

I try to be supportive, but I guess I'm not being for a while.

[Esther Perel]

You drop the topic altogether. The cheerleading side of it and the critical side of it. Okay, for a while, you have to bite your tongue because instead of going and taking action about the things that she needs to take action on, she spends her time reacting. There is a power dynamic in this relationship. There is one woman who is definitely economically much more well off. She has the resources she had the marriage, she has the. She had the status that comes from being in a heterosexual relationship. So there is a clear power imbalance between the two women. But, you know, the person who manages to say no, Everybody who has had teenagers know that the true power doesn't lie with the parent at that moment.

[Partner 1]

I think one of the things that drew her to me and that now just horrifies her. It does both at the same time. The guy got on the subway playing the guitar, and I was interacting with him, and she's like, nudging me. And I was thoroughly enjoying him. So things like that, that I do.

[Esther Perel]

She's like.

[Partner 1]

I enjoy the fact that with the girls, although I was in a role that was much stricter than I ever wanted to be, I think that I still gave them permission to be as fun and as.

[Esther Perel]

Can I interrupt you, please? I think that what I'm trying to suggest to you, the subway scene, is another example of the parental role. Mommy is telling you that you are not behaving properly in the subway, that you are embarrassing.

[Partner 1]

Well, maybe I'm embarrassing her, but I'm just being me and enjoying this.

[Esther Perel]

True, but that's the same as what any teenager would answer. It's another scene of the same.

[Partner 1]

You're right. And my brain is stuck at 14. I know that.

[Sponsor Voice]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. So anything from you at this point, it really has to be about your own agency, about your place in the world. You spend so much time reacting to her that you actually don't take action about you.

[Partner 1]

Correct. That is sad, but true.

[Esther Perel]

This has to stop you.

[Partner 1]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

In the position of a child.

[Partner 1]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And for all I know, part of what drew you in the beginning when you met was to see her in the role of a mother and to like the mother you were seeing and to have another relationship where you could be.

[Partner 1]

When we met, I was much more fun, much more exciting. I traveled more, I made more money. I. I think that I don't know how to make more money. I'm apparently not a very good businesswoman.

[Esther Perel]

No, you don't have to be a businesswoman. But you're very skilled and you can earn more by virtue of the things you know to do and do well.

[Partner 1]

I know what I'm good at. I know I'm a very good caretaker.

[Esther Perel]

That has value. The issue is not just what you do or how much you make. It's the story that you tell about. I'm not good at this. I don't do that.

[Partner 1]

So I should have been a doctor.

[Esther Perel]

It's probably true. But you could be an amazing caregiver of all sorts. And people need caregivers that are not doctors quite a bit.

[Partner 1]

Yeah, but that's the part I can't do.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, see, this is a perfect example. This Is it? We just did it. We just did it. I just got inducted into exactly your role. With your reaction. Here we are. This is the dynamic. She will come up with one idea after another and you'll poo poo one idea after another. And your strength comes from the poo poo. From now on, every time she says I don't know what to do, you say me neither.

[Partner 2]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

And you don't take it out because the next minute you're going to come up with an advice. She instantly has you involved. And now she can say no.

[Partner 2]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And that'll keep you in this non adult position and then you'll complain that she's not intimate with you. And on and on it will go.

[Partner 1]

I know that I don't believe in myself and my abilities and that's a huge stumbling block for me.

[Esther Perel]

So that may have been true for the first 50 years and that may not remain the truth of the future. And that requires some risk taking and trying things. And instead of defying her, defy your own limiting beliefs.

[Partner 1]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

And that's the only thing at this moment is to bring yourself up to date from 14 to 50 and to.

[Partner 1]

Not be disappointed with how things went along the way. Because I can't change it.

[Esther Perel]

It is where it is. You are both vigorous, healthy, engaged. Life is ahead of you. You are in a major life cycle transition. It's filled with possibilities. It won't be what you imagined. You enjoy each other's company. That goes a long way.

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

You want that energy in your life. That's what brings the vitality. From that place will come you owning your life and redressing the origin. The origin is I lied and I cheated and I did this. But I also fell in love and I was. It's a double story and they coexist. You have only focused on one side.

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And it's not the same to say this is who I am versus saying I'm gay. That's not all of what you are. But it's been a part of you that has been hard to claim.

[Partner 2]

Yes. I never looked at it as the two sides of a story. For as much bad there was good, you know? And that part of the reason I fell in love with you is just like I've never really met anyone that's just as genuine and it's just. And doesn't want anything from anybody. Just wants to love and give. And that's so rare.

[Esther Perel]

You do this, you'll get the smile that you have on your face now. You'll hold hands the way you do now. You look at her with tenderness the way you just did.

[Partner 2]

For every day that I'm so frustrated and done an hour later, I remember.

[Esther Perel]

Why, like, you know, oh, that's what welcome to marriage.

[Partner 2]

I know.

[Narrator]

You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherparel.com Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estheraparel.com.

[Sponsor Voice]

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