The Chronic Philanderer

Summary

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel

Episode: The Chronic Philanderer

Release Date: October 20, 2025
Host: Esther Perel

---

Episode Overview

In this moving and raw session, Esther Perel works with a married couple struggling in the aftermath of the husband’s latest infidelity—his rekindled romance with a childhood girlfriend. The couple peels back layers of betrayal, pain, and emotional hunger, revealing patterns of avoidance, longing for connection, and unresolved wounds. Esther guides them through not just the facts of the affair, but the deeper meanings beneath their behavior, ultimately probing family trauma, identity, and the burdens of loss. The session delves into why people repeat hurtful patterns, the impact of infertility and parentage on their marriage, and what it takes to forge a path toward healing—or separation.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Crisis: Chronic Infidelity and Unresolved Decisions

• The wife discovered her husband’s ongoing emotional and physical affair, which reignited during a visit to his hometown to see his ailing mother.
• The marriage is stuck: the husband won’t fully commit to ending the affair, and the wife waits for him to make a choice, feeling increasingly powerless and mistrustful.
  • Wife: “He’s still just hedging his bets all the time.” (02:37)
  • Esther Perel: "He won’t commit." (02:40)

2. The Husband’s Pattern: Pleasing Others and Escaping Discomfort

• The husband is described as “a perfectionist” and a “chameleon,” constantly seeking to please others, both at work and at home, but is internally driven by fear of disappointment or rejection.
  • Wife: "He’s definitely a perfectionist, and definitely someone who goes above and beyond to make people happy… but I didn’t know what disappointment it was giving him.” (03:32)
• He admits to seeking solace from strangers in online chatrooms, finding affirmation and low-risk connection:
  • Husband: "I loved getting to know other people… in the chat rooms, I might be worth spending a couple minutes with, you know." (07:18)
• Esther pinpoints that the husband knows what he is doing, but not why:
  • Esther Perel: “You know what you’ve done… but you don’t really know why. What. Why now?” (06:26)

3. Family Dynamics and Old Wounds

• A significant discussion concerns their children, especially around the issue of parentage (the couple used a sperm donor after surgeries and fertility struggles).
  • Husband: "They made a crack about me not being their real father… I felt super disrespected, which I haven’t done well with my whole life." (11:38)
  • Esther Perel: "They knew that this is your Achilles heel… and if they really want to get at you, this is the thing they need to throw at you." (12:22)
• The husband feels a deep sense of inadequacy and seeks out situations—like his affair with a single mother of two boys—that allow him to rewrite his own origin story, to be “appreciated” and needed.

4. The Cycle of Avoidance and Emotional Regulation

• Both partners fall into patterns of either suppressing or externalizing their feelings.
  • Esther Perel: "If you just tell it as the next anecdote, you won’t learn anything new about you... The issue is not, can you make a decision? You don’t know what the decision is about." (10:02)
• The wife is exhausted by carrying emotional burdens and moderating her reactions to accommodate her husband.
  • Wife: "I’ve had to kind of rush all these emotions along because I needed to be a wife and I needed to be a mother… This one, I just, I can’t rush." (35:08)
  • Esther Perel: “For once in my life, I need you to think about me first.” (37:37)

5. Raw Moments on Loss, Parenting, and Identity

• Grief, infertility, and the challenge of feeling like a “real” parent pervade their marriage.
  • Wife: “How much more do I put up with because I’m afraid of loss? How do I trust you?” (38:47)
  • Husband: “I lost the ability to have kids the way most guys have kids... And it hurts me. And then it reinforces it when they hit that dig that I’m not their real father.” (40:34)
  • Esther Perel: "You have a way of talking about very painful things in passing... these things, even though you had your girls... They scar us. If you allowed yourself more of that sadness, you’d be less into your sense of ‘I deserve’..." (42:46)
• Esther challenges both partners to be honest about the real issues and to stop using emotional coping mechanisms that merely sustain the limbo.

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• Esther Perel (to both):

  "The test for you is to actually stay in a place where you’re not doing so well and make it better, rather than continuously seek out places, people, women in particular, who give you a stage to do mini performances." (24:44)

• Husband:

  "I don’t want to hurt her anymore. I really don’t. I just hope I have enough control to not hurt her anymore. I love her." (24:50)

• Wife:

  "It just. It makes me feel diminished. Like, it makes me feel replaceable… I thought I was finally giving him the family that he needed to complete himself." (28:12)

• Esther Perel (on labeling behavior):

  “You will call it indulgence, and he will think that it is primary food. And that's the piece that needs to come out if this is to move. Not because you have to accept it, but because it needs to be at least properly labeled." (26:02)

• Husband, candidly:

  "I know I want to stay and I know I want to fix this and I know I want to move on… I just want to work on putting it behind me." (33:18)

• Wife:

  "But when you kept all this connection going on with this other person, it's like I can sense that I can't really move on and just pick myself up when it's continuing on." (35:54)

• Esther Perel (on the need to process loss):

  "We need to talk about loss. You need to talk to each other about loss." (38:09)

• Wife:

  "I don’t want to be this person… There’s more to me than that." (45:02)

• Esther Perel (on the husband’s honesty and its impact):

  “Your honesty is valued, but it has consequences. Because, in effect, what you’re saying to your wife is not being alone is really the important thing for me." (46:43)

---

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Description | |-----------|--------------------| | 01:27 | Start of the session: wife waiting for husband’s decision | | 03:32 | Wife describes husband’s perfectionism and need to please | | 06:25 | Esther: “You know what you’ve done, but not why.” | | 11:38 | Husband discusses pain of being told by kids he’s not their “real” father | | 13:18 | Husband connects affair to seeking validation and connection | | 21:21 | Esther on his cycle of involvement and withdrawal with his daughters | | 24:44 | Esther challenges the “mini performances” dynamic | | 28:12 | Wife describes feeling diminished and replaceable | | 35:08 | Wife reflects on always moderating her emotions | | 38:09 | Loss and grief are named as core topics to discuss | | 40:34 | Husband on the pain of not being a biological parent | | 42:46 | Esther on the dangers of avoiding sadness/reality | | 45:02 | Wife asserts need for self-respect and boundaries |

---

Final Insights and Reflections

Esther provides a framework for understanding infidelity beyond the surface (“the next anecdote”), locating it in personal and family history, unmet needs, and the dance of avoidance and confrontation. She urges the wife to reclaim agency, no longer waiting indefinitely for the husband to choose, and highlights how both partners have been shaped by loss, longing, and their respective coping strategies. The couple leaves the session with no easy answers, but with a call to confront pain directly rather than fleeing or numbing it—and with the challenge to consider not only why these patterns recurred, but what, if anything, will truly help them break free.

---

This summary captures the emotional depth and main narrative of this powerful session. For anyone who hasn’t listened, it spotlights the real issues at stake—identity, belonging, chronic avoidance, and the complexity of repairing or ending relationships after betrayal.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's and each episode is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

[Esther Perel]

Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from the Guardian. Not all journalism is the same. Take the Guardian. Their coverage has something special, fierce independence. Nobody owns them or tells them what they can and cannot say, so they seek to report the whole picture. They connect what's happening in Washington to the rest of the globe, expose corruption wherever they find it, and give fresh perspectives on everything from wellness and soccer to culture, the climate and more. Read, watch and listen to the Guardian for [e-mail] Amazon has everything for everyone on your list.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Like your teenage son who has sprouted.

[Esther Perel]

The sorriest excuse for a mustache you have ever seen.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Get him an electric razor and with Amazon early holiday deals, you'll save big.

[Esther Perel]

To be honest, I'm waiting for him.

[Wife]

To make a decision because obviously I can't.

[Esther Perel]

Nine months ago, this woman found out that her husband had reconnected with a childhood girlfriend in his hometown, where he went to visit his ailing mother.

[Husband]

And I remember that first night I went to the bathroom and I looked at myself in the mirror and I was like, listen. I was like, we're good, you've got this. This is fine. I have this under control.

[Esther Perel]

It's been nine months that they're grappling with the ravages of this infidelity, but also decades long of acting out on his part, proceeding.

[Wife]

Little did I know that he had been going online to all these different chat room.

[Husband]

At first I kind of wanted to seek the solace of strangers. It happened over time.

[Esther Perel]

A decision needs to be made because the other relationship is not over, contrary to what the wife thought. But she wants him to make the decision. And his decision would be not to make a decision.

[Wife]

He's still just hedging his bets all the time.

[Esther Perel]

He won't commit.

[Wife]

I feel like sometimes I'm living with like a time bomb. He's been telling me he loves me and he wants to be with me and this is where he wants to be. And then at the same time, he's still been in communication with this other person. And I don't trust, I don't trust what he's telling me. Like over the past nine months he said these same things and saying these things to this other woman at the same time. And he's like a chameleon, pleasing whoever he's with based upon what he needs.

[Esther Perel]

So, you know, tell me that sentence that you just gave me. He pleases everyone he's with. That's new. Or that's the man you've known?

[Wife]

I think he. Yes, he's definitely a perfectionist, and definitely someone who goes above and beyond to make people happy or to do well in work. He's there 110%, and I've always known that. I've always seen that, and I've loved that, but I didn't know what disappointment it was giving him. Maybe internally, when he wasn't pleasing somebody, he can't let it go. He can't let it go. That.

[Husband]

Yeah, I think that's probably accurate. Mm.

[Esther Perel]

Say more. She knows you well, but say more.

[Husband]

I grew up in. It was just my mother and I, and I think I was always in a position of having to prove. I think I was very. I was driven early almost to kind of prove that I more than belonged.

[Esther Perel]

I very quickly get a sense that this man has a story, and he repeats the story to himself. The child of the single mother, the only child of divorce in his school. But at the end of the story, he still doesn't really understand why he's doing what he's doing.

[Husband]

You know, I can't. My behavior is not completely explainable. And I don't know if it was a midlife crisis or kind of what was happening. And we're so much farther along in these nine months. She says in these nine months that I've said certain things and then done things to negate the things that I've said.

[Esther Perel]

You can talk to her.

[Husband]

And I think in many ways, I've been trying to figure it out, but on my timeline, and while I've been trying to pull away, haven't pulled away exclusively, been able to really cut the cord. But I'm. You know, I'm working on it. And I know that doesn't sound right, but it's really all I could have. Could do at this time.

[Esther Perel]

No, I don't think so.

[Husband]

No.

[Esther Perel]

No. I think part of why you seem to be hitting a wall, see, it's because there is a kind of a manifest story, but then there's a latent story, and that one isn't clear to you on some level. You don't really know what's happening to you. You know what you've done.

[Husband]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

But you don't really know why. What. Why now.

[Wife]

How come?

[Esther Perel]

And I wanted to ask you first, what have you understood so far of my actions? Of you? Yeah, of your actions. And most importantly, of what your actions tell you.

[Husband]

You know, I think there was such a curiosity at the beginning in the chat rooms, you know, such a curiosity. I loved getting to know other people, and I described it as fishing, because I was basically fishing to try to gather their attention in these chat rooms and how you could do that. And even though there was a sexual component to it, I learned a lot about human behavior. I really did.

[Esther Perel]

And what did you learn about you?

[Husband]

That I was likable. That there was something of value. That people liked me, you know, the women liked me, you know, And I think along because.

[Esther Perel]

Because. Slow down, slow down. Because before that, I thought and felt what?

[Husband]

Alone? More alone, More isolated.

[Esther Perel]

And I thought of myself as what? And you can connect that guy with the teenage one and with the younger one. I am likable. And I am not what I've always thought of myself. Which is what?

[Husband]

I rub people the wrong way. Even when I wasn't trying to rub them the wrong way, I just. I just rub people the wrong way. And in the chat rooms, I might be worth spending a couple minutes with, you know.

[Esther Perel]

But it's low risk.

[Husband]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

What other tricks did you try? Hmm.

[Husband]

I stumbled on this name, dopamine, in there, and I thought that was ironic. And I, you know, reached out, said something that I probably thought was semi clever, and she responded. And I was really trying to stop the whole process at this point. I really was. I didn't want to have anything to do with it.

[Esther Perel]

Are you okay listening to this?

[Wife]

Yeah. I mean, I want to listen.

[Esther Perel]

You do? I mean, yeah, because I can also take a few minutes alone with him.

[Wife]

No, because I know about this person and I need the truth.

[Esther Perel]

It's interesting, right? Because what I'm hoping to do with him and with you is to get away from the truth about the other people and get closer to the truth about him. I know if he starts to talk now about the women, to me, it's a deflection.

[Wife]

I agree. I agree.

[Esther Perel]

So, as seductive as it may be to hear about her and to think you're going to find something there or he's going to find something there. But I hope that you leave here with things that you haven't yet talked, felt, or thought about. And I think you may get more from understanding the meaning than the facts. And some of this is going to be for you to not fall into your typical stories. If you Just tell it as the next anecdote. You won't learn anything new about you. And this is true for all of us. We have a way of thinking about ourselves. We have a way of understanding ourselves, and then we pile up stories that come to confirm it. But the truth doesn't lie there, and the understanding doesn't lie there. You may stay in this marriage, you may leave this marriage, and you won't have understood squat. The issue is not, can you make a decision? You don't know what the decision is about. It is about the marriage. And not the marriage, but it's also about what happened to you. And with the latest woman and the latest installment, but also throughout your life. And this I say to you, too, you kind of organize yourselves around. We must make a decision. Does he stay in the attic or does he come back to the bedroom?

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me something. What happened in the car? One part of his story that did seem to matter a great deal was a recent interaction with his teenage daughter in the car.

[Husband]

They made a crack about me not being their real father.

[Wife]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

Who is they?

[Husband]

My children. Where I felt super disrespected, which I haven't done well with my whole life. Obviously, that would be a trigger point for me.

[Esther Perel]

And they said you were not their father because.

[Husband]

Well, because we had problems having babies and we needed a donor. And we told them at a very early age, in an effort to be healthy, that, you know, mommy and daddy needed some help. And so, you know, I went through two surgeries, and we really. We did everything we could. We went to the top of the line, and I had a backup. I had a donor backup.

[Esther Perel]

Did you tell the daughters how hard you worked on this, how much you tried? They know all of that. So basically, they knew that this is your Achilles heel.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And if they really want to get at you, this is the thing they need to throw at you.

[Husband]

Pretty much.

[Wife]

It's just words, like, they're. They understand. Do you know what I mean? They're just.

[Esther Perel]

They understand nothing.

[Wife]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

They don't understand how much it hurts him.

[Wife]

No, I can't.

[Esther Perel]

And they don't understand how much. This may also be at the core of a lot of your acting out.

[Husband]

Yeah. The friend, the woman I grew up with in my hometown, um, you know, she. It's. It's ironic that she has two boys. I also think it's ironic that she's a single mother.

[Esther Perel]

Of course not ironic.

[Wife]

It's. I know.

[Esther Perel]

It's extremely well chosen. You need enough elements to be able to Repeat your story, your origin story, and maybe have the opportunity to play with it and change it. Yeah, but do you know what you're trying to change? Myself, I don't know.

[Husband]

I think in some ways I can actually rewind history for me. Right. I could be some. Be there for someone who really seems really appreciative too. You know, I, I mean, one of the things I got in trouble with, with her is I stumbled on this book, He's a runner. And I, I sent him a book that I knew that he would really, really like because I, I wanted him to know that I was watching from afar, that I cared about that. I, I mean, that I wanted him to know that he was value.

[Esther Perel]

I have a sense that what I've just watched is a very old dynamic here, whereby he highlights how the girls make him feel that he's not legit. By throwing at him the genetic factor. They can really go and say, you're not my dad. Something that kids often will say to parents when they're upset. But when there is a piece of truth to it, some element, even though he's raised them from day one, they really know where they're aiming. And then the mother tries to defend the girls by just saying it's just words. The girls don't understand what he's going through, but in that moment, maybe the mother doesn't either. And so he experiences that as a microaggression. He doesn't say it. I'm not even sure it's conscious. And then when he cries about how he was able to be so kind to the son of his lover, who doesn't question his DNA, and so his competence and his legitimacy is intact, then he's basically firing back a microaggression at the wife to say, here, I may be incompetent, but there I'm deeply appreciated.

[Narrator/Host]

We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad, free, click the try Free button to subscribe to Astera's office hours on Apple Podcasts.

[Esther Perel]

Support for this show comes from Quince. The leaves are falling, the air is crisp, and autumn is here, which means it's time to break out the layers. From sweaters to premium denim to luxe outerwear. Quinze says they have everything you need to stay cozy and comfy this autumn. And by partnering directly with top tier factories, Queens is able to cut out the middlemen so that they can deliver luxury quality pieces at half the price of similar brands. If you're like me. It's a relief when the temperature finally drops and you can wrap yourself in a cozy scarf like Quinn's 100% purpose pashmina wool scarf. It's soft and warm and feels great against my skin. Find your fall staples at Queen's go to queens.com begin for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com begin to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Queens.com begin support for where Should We Begin? Comes from Sixpenny Sixpenny is reimagining luxury at home with comfortable slip covered furniture for living, dining and sleeping spaces, plus distinctive tables and accent pieces. You can order customizable furniture in an assortment of gorgeous all natural and recycled fabrics, solid wood and characteristic stone. You can visit sixpenny.com begin for a leisurely browse through their impeccably designed pieces and perhaps even order yourself some free swatches. That's s I x P-E-N-N-Y.com begin.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Let'S be honest. Are you happy with your job? Like really happy? The unfortunate fact is that a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Far too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never wanted in the first place. But still, we stick it out and we give reasons like, what if the next move is even worse? I've already put years into this place and maybe the most common one Isn't everyone kind of miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for Strawberry Me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you go from where you are to where you actually want to be. Your coach helps you get clear on your goals, create a plan, build your confidence and keeps you accountable along the way. So don't leave your career to chance. Take action and own your future with a professional coach in your corner. Go to Strawberry Me Unstuck to claim a special offer. That's Strawberry Me Unstuck.

[Wife]

You have. You have two girls. They still need you. They need a father to really throw himself into them.

[Husband]

I know. I just can't change them. You know, the little ones.

[Wife]

But you're not supposed to change them.

[Husband]

I can't even. I have to wait for them to come to me. You know?

[Esther Perel]

Why is that?

[Husband]

They don't want to talk about it.

[Esther Perel]

No, no, no, no. Don't put it all on them.

[Husband]

I don't know. I don't know. I'm sure I'm tough on them and I'm tough on the. I want them to be great. I want them to apply themselves.

[Esther Perel]

So you're replaying the. Not enough prove yourself?

[Husband]

Yeah, I guess so. That's the only way I knew how to get there.

[Wife]

And they love him so much. And it kills me that he.

[Esther Perel]

That.

[Wife]

It just kills me. But there's like. They're all like this with each other, all of them in different ways. But the three of them are like this. Not.

[Husband]

We go off on our own trips. We did that. We used to do that.

[Esther Perel]

Don't argue. Listen for a split second.

[Wife]

I'm not saying that there's not moments, but I think there is some wall or something where I think the older one is more mature, more articulate to be able to not be afraid to say what she feels. And she will be very direct about how she feels. And she's not afraid to challenge you.

[Husband]

No.

[Wife]

The younger one, though, hasn't found a voice yet. And she's in that awkward age where she doesn't even understand what her voice is. I think the younger one doesn't talk because everybody else does the talking for her. She also has her escapes, and that's why she escapes.

[Husband]

Well, she has these darn devices. And she watches her, you know, repeated television shows.

[Wife]

It's easier. It's easier. She doesn't have to fight with them. She can think what she wants to think about those shows and not have somebody else tell her, no, you're wrong. The way that you're thinking.

[Esther Perel]

One moment you get over involved and you want to control the whole thing, and the next minute, because you don't succeed at it, you say, fuck it.

[Wife]

That's exactly what happened.

[Esther Perel]

I've had it. I'm out of here. And then on occasion, you think, no, I'm not gonna do what my father did. I'm not gonna abandon my children.

[Husband]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

But then you say, I want to be rewarded for that. And they have to make me feel good about the fact that I didn't do what he did. Right?

[Husband]

Yeah, that's right.

[Esther Perel]

And because you're not doing well at home, you find yourself another family where you think you can come in as the shining prince.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And if I can't help my daughters, I'll help those little boys with whom you create this kind of overlapping identification. I once was that boy. And you confuse realities, Right.

[Husband]

And I Feel to that end that I'm being where someone also truly needs me and also understands me as well. Right. I mean, I'm just. I'm not. I'm not. Just bear with me here as we go into this. I mean, I'm not trying to be hurtful, but I think there's a sense of, you know, you say people have responsibilities, right? And I know I have my responsibilities with you and the girls, but I feel terribly guilty having entered her life in such a way now.

[Wife]

I understand that, really. But listen, she's got a family out there. She's got plenty of people to take care of her.

[Esther Perel]

She does.

[Wife]

She's been taking care of herself and taking care of those boys and doing exactly what she wanted to do and making her choices way before you came into the picture.

[Husband]

I know.

[Wife]

And if you kind of can't, you gotta kind of understand that, because I'm actually not here to kind of let you just go and live out your other reality.

[Husband]

I know.

[Wife]

That's the bottom line.

[Husband]

I know.

[Wife]

I've kind of had enough with that. I've been very, like, forgiving. I've been very patient. Very patient. But you say there's a decision to make. It's time to either actually put the work into this and figure this out, or just go so then I can go live my life.

[Esther Perel]

He ain't gonna make a decision. You're gonna make the decision.

[Wife]

I know that. I know. I know that.

[Esther Perel]

And you're gonna have to accept that. You know, the way this end goes is I want him to make the decision so I don't have to be the one that is responsible for breaking up my family. Let him do the dirty job. It's his doing. And so then you end up sitting and waiting. You could wait for a few years like this. The woman is irrelevant. It's all about him. The test for you is to actually stay in a place where you're not doing so well and make it better, rather than continuously seek out places, people, women in particular, who give you a stage to do mini performances. Mm.

[Husband]

I don't want to hurt her anymore. I really don't. I just hope I have enough control to not hurt her anymore. I love her.

[Wife]

I think that's what's so confusing to me. I just can't relate to not having control. If you know you're gonna do something that's gonna hurt somebody, then just don't do it. Like, I just. It's hard for me sometimes.

[Esther Perel]

It's very hard to understand the logic of if you know it's gonna hurt. Why do you do it? What he's giving to the little boy inside of him, the affirmation, the importance, the whole spiel, the selfish part, for him, in that moment takes precedence of everything. It's not what he's doing to others. It's what he's doing for himself.

[Wife]

Yeah, but then that's like indulgence of. Yep, that's indulgence.

[Esther Perel]

And you will call it indulgence, and he will think that it is primary food. And that's the piece that needs to come out if this is to move. Not because you have to accept it, but because it needs to be at least properly labeled.

[Wife]

Yeah.

[Husband]

Why is the little boy so much the forefront right now? Why is he coming on with a vengeance?

[Esther Perel]

Because your mother got sick. Because you're about to lose your mother. There was a sincerity to this question, maybe one of the first moments when he stopped and pondered. And as I'm listening to it, it sounds as if I was kind of impatient with him and dismissive. That was really not the idea. It was more just to say, it's so obvious why now? But it came out as if I was saying, you don't know that. So obvious. And that's really not okay. You found another woman that actually helps you with your sense of terror and helplessness in an interesting way. I think it has less to do with this family and more to do with your family of origin.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's more about your mother than your wife and your daughters. The chat rooms, the nannies, all of that, That's a different story. But if you ask me for the timing, what better way to protect yourself against loss than to find someone who is completely dependent on you?

[Wife]

You know, when you say that, you know, there was this emotional connection. This person cares for you and loves you and everything. And I guess I'm going off a little off track here a little bit, but about me at this moment.

[Esther Perel]

But it's okay. You can insert yourself back into story. Please do.

[Husband]

Please do.

[Esther Perel]

Um.

[Wife]

You know, it just. It just. It makes me feel diminished. Like, it makes me feel replaceable. It makes me feel replaceable, knowing, you know, one thing he would say to me at the beginning is that if I had met this woman before I met you, this is someone I could have seen myself live my life with. I was so shocked. I thought I was finally giving him the family that he needed to complete himself. I know I was giving him the stability I was trying to be, you know, loving and calm and compassionate and a Good mother. And I was trying to do all these things. I thought I was like really giving you everything that you wanted.

[Husband]

They were.

[Wife]

And it's like. But that. But that's where it was.

[Esther Perel]

Did you hear?

[Wife]

You were. I was. But it wasn't enough.

[Esther Perel]

But that may not be because you're not enough. That's the catch here, is to not translate this as if. If I was more, he wouldn't do this instead of I was plenty.

[Wife]

I know.

[Esther Perel]

And whatever he did is not a response to you. You have got to know that.

[Wife]

I know.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. No matter how much you've given him, there's a piece of it he's gonna have to do on his own.

[Wife]

I know.

[Esther Perel]

Or not.

[Wife]

Or not. Or not.

[Husband]

Can I just say something to qualify the comment that this was someone I could live or see myself with, a life with. I think in some ways is warped as it may sound, I felt that was. It's not a compliment to you, but it's the idea that this wasn't just a floozy. This was someone of substance. The idea was it was an experience. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I think the only or the most important thing at this moment, if you will say something to your wife, has to be about acknowledging how shitty a thing it was to say and how hurtful it was and not to justify yourself. Seriously.

[Husband]

I really wasn't trying to hurt her.

[Esther Perel]

I don't care if you were trying. But when we do, you own it.

[Husband]

Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry. I am.

[Wife]

Yeah. And what makes it worse is you keep justifying it when sometimes it's just someone just wants to hear I'm sorry, and that was wrong.

[Esther Perel]

You know, the challenge for you is that you see yourself as a good person and you're doing not good things. And so you keep trying to close the gap. There's a lot of things that have been triggered by the fact that his mother is dying. There's also a lot of acting out, from the chat rooms to the nannies to all kinds of unsavory behaviors that really has happened over 20 year period. So it's probably not the wisest thing to just try to come up with one reason to explain a whole behavior. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

[Husband]

Every story you love, every invention that moves you, every idea you wished was yours, all began as nothing. Just a blank page with a blinking cursor asking a simple question. What do you see? Great ideas. Start on Mac. Find out more on apple.com Mac avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app Download today. Morning, Zoe.

[Esther Perel]

Jeff Bridges. Why are you still living above our garage?

[Husband]

I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you. Teach me. Saldana.

[Esther Perel]

I couldn't possibly AT T Mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Husband]

Impressive. Let me try at T Mobile. You can save up to 20% versus.

[Wife]

The other big guys.

[Husband]

You heard them. T mobile is the best place to get the new iPhone 17 Pro on us with eligible traded in any condition. Check them out to see how much you could save versus the other big guys. @t mobile.com switch I know I want to stay. I know I want to stay and I know I want to fix this and I know I want to move on. I don't want to have to answer it for forever and I just want to work on putting it behind me.

[Wife]

Go with me here. Putting it behind you. We all move forward. But part of putting that behind you is also acknowledging that this happened and it is part of your story now. And it should be the catalyst or the inspiration to be like, where have I gone now because of this?

[Husband]

I am, I'm acknowledging. I just want to talk about it a hundred times a day.

[Wife]

Yeah, I get that.

[Husband]

Okay.

[Wife]

You know, our life obviously hasn't been completely easy. There have been, you know, the whole everything about our infertility, you know, it took a long, long time. Not only him, but I went through many, many, many, many different treatments and medications. Right. Miscarriages, you know, different things. And I've had a lot of loss on my side. I don't have my parents anymore. I don't have a sibling anymore.

[Narrator/Host]

And.

[Wife]

I've had to kind of rush all these emotions along because I needed to kind of. I needed to be a wife and I needed to be a mother. And. And I think what I'm feeling right now with all of this, when you say you don't want to talk about it all the time, is that I can't this one, I just, I can't rush. It's Like I've just. If I'm feeling depressed or I'm feeling anxious or something's triggering me, I shouldn't have to apologize for it. As if that's going to trigger you. I think that's my biggest fear, you know?

[Husband]

No, it's not about that. Listen, I think we're also a very dramatic family. I think we are too hurt.

[Esther Perel]

Don't bring her.

[Husband]

I mean, I think we are prone to drama, and I just think there's a sense of wallowing in it, too, you know?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Wife]

But when you kept all this connection going on with this other person, it's like I can sense that I can't really move on and just pick myself up when it's continuing on.

[Husband]

I know.

[Esther Perel]

I like to think sometimes that when a crisis occurs like this in a relationship, it kind of lights up the scorecard of the relationship. The arrangements you made, the spoken and the unspoken compromises, the implicit agreements, the explicit ones. And what I'm hearing from you is, look, husband of mine, something that I realize is that I basically have continuously moderated my own emotional experience by checking in how it would affect you. And if I didn't think you could take it, I would cut my grief short. I just have always asked myself, not what do I feel, but how will it affect you? You. And this has been pretty much the way we've been for 25 years.

[Husband]

That's terrible. I mean, I don't want you to do that.

[Esther Perel]

That is. It is neither a good thing or a terrible thing. These things are way more complicated than just right and wrong. But now my anger about all the other times when I cut things short because I was thinking of you is coming up because for once in my life, I need you to think about me first.

[Husband]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

So when she says, I need you to think about me, you can't start coming back and saying, honey, on occasion, just be a little happy. It's just bullshit. Because you know damn well that part of why she can't is because you keep sniffing under her nose.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So you have to be really careful not to push each other out of the door when actually nobody really wants to go anywhere.

[Husband]

Nobody wants to go.

[Esther Perel]

I want to ask you something, because you did mention loss and you mentioned your parents and you mentioned your siblings, and you mentioned the miscarriages and. And you mentioned infertility, and you mentioned the sperm donor and you mentioned your mother. We need to talk about loss. You need to talk to each other about loss.

[Wife]

I don't want to lose anymore.

[Esther Perel]

I can't lose anymore.

[Wife]

How much more do I put up with because I'm afraid of loss? How much more do I put up with? How do I trust you?

[Husband]

Listen. You know, we know each other one second.

[Esther Perel]

Every time you talk, you create a buffer. Just look at her and listen.

[Husband]

You're killing me.

[Esther Perel]

Because there's no screen here. There's no delete button. This one you can't just control. And you have to actually not pretend you're dealing with distress, but actually be present for the distress. It's the girls, too.

[Husband]

Go ahead.

[Wife]

I just want you to. I want you to not hurt me.

[Husband]

I know. I know.

[Wife]

I want you to put us first before yourself.

[Husband]

I never wanted to hurt you. I wasn't. I mean, she's had many friends who've wanted her to end this. Be strong, walk out.

[Esther Perel]

Why does that make you laugh?

[Husband]

Um, I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

Talk to me about Luss. In fact, not talk to me, talk to her.

[Husband]

I lost the ability to have kids the way most guys have kids.

[Esther Perel]

How has that been for you?

[Husband]

You know, I never thought it was that much. I just rolled with it quick. But obviously it hurts me, right? I love some of, you know, my oldest, she has a lot of similar personality traits, and I love those traits. I love her sense of humor. I love her spiritedness. And the little one is ferociously funny. But I also feel sometimes distant, More distant than I want to be because I don't have that cellular connection. And it hurts me. And then it reinforces it. When they hit that dig that I'm not their real father, I just feel like some sort of standby.

[Esther Perel]

Because he knows that he's not a genetic father, a biological father. He then interprets his distance as being rooted. Rooted in that. But that's a construction. It could have been about anything else. Maybe he's distant because he's too self involved. Maybe he's distant because he doesn't like to be in a place where he doesn't feel competent. So everybody's using the same weapon, him to explain himself, them to push him away and attack him. But if that wasn't the weapon, there would be another way for kids to tell their parents, I don't love you, you know, you're not my real person. You know? You know, how can I be your daughter? You mustn't be my father. There's loads of ways that people try to say, you know, our relationship is broken. That is the statement, not the origins. You have a way of talking about very painful things in passing.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Like Two surgeries, like many miscarriages, these things, even though you had your girls and you have to be thankful that they are there. These things, they scar us. And I think if you allowed yourself more of that sadness, you'd be less into your sense of I deserve because you're deserving is kind of the entitlement of the deprived. And when I said to you before, why does that make you laugh? It's because it's the laughter of self loathing. It's not a real laughter. You escape from something and you fantasize into something, and it's the something that we're trying to understand. Otherwise, you're going to continue to say, I don't want to hurt you, and then go call the other lady and hurt her. And in the end, you'll hurt both of them. And you'll have two women who are pissed off at you, who want you, and you will feel so important.

[Husband]

Ridiculous.

[Esther Perel]

You see, the dance.

[Husband]

The thing is, I love this. I love this woman. I love her. We're good together. We're good.

[Wife]

You're an integral part of our family unit.

[Husband]

Mm.

[Wife]

But you're also someone that I really care about.

[Husband]

I know. I love you too. You know that?

[Wife]

It is like a roller coaster. That's why I've kept going on and on.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. And when he says, you know that, then your head says, well, if you know that I know, then why do you keep doing things that hurt me then? Obviously you don't, so. No, I don't know it. Why would I know it? So that one is a slippery slope.

[Husband]

It is.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Wife]

And that's why I have to say, start saying to myself, enough is enough. Enough is enough. I don't want to be this person.

[Esther Perel]

Which one?

[Wife]

The person that keeps letting it all slide by. I don't want to be that. I don't. There's more to me than that.

[Esther Perel]

What would happen if he moved out? He will move to Ohio.

[Husband]

No.

[Esther Perel]

What will you do all alone?

[Husband]

Me?

[Esther Perel]

Yes. You will move to Ohio within a week.

[Husband]

Probably wouldn't stay there very long.

[Esther Perel]

Where?

[Husband]

Alone? No, I don't think so. I don't like being alone. I mean, I would try, you know, I don't know. I would try to be alone for a little bit, but I'm sure things would kick back up. Right. With a. With my friend in Ohio, probably. What are you giving me that look for?

[Wife]

Cuz it's just. It is true.

[Husband]

Well, I mean, that's what.

[Wife]

That's what he was saying all along. It's like it's like you're lying. You're lying to me, you're lying to her, you're lying to yourself like all this.

[Husband]

Actually, I'm not lying.

[Wife]

No, no, no. Exactly. That's exactly true. You're absolutely right. You would be. The reality is, is that within a week, you would. Less than a week, you'd be right back into it, and honestly. And I would just divorce you.

[Husband]

Okay.

[Wife]

I can't.

[Husband]

Isn't it funny how pat. How quickly we can get to the other side? I mean, it is a slippery slope. I mean, that. You can start. You can start running down that mountain.

[Esther Perel]

Real quick, but you're provocative. I love you. I love you. I love you. I move out. I'll figure it out. I don't like being alone. I'll solve that problem really fast.

[Husband]

I. I just know me. I'm being honest.

[Esther Perel]

I. I didn't say you're not honest. I'm saying you're provocative. You're asking, why did you just go on the other side of the slope? Because you just literally put a banana peel under her foot, and then you say, she sl. Your honesty is valued, but it has consequences. Because, in effect, what you're saying to your wife is not being alone is really the important thing for me. You matter to me. But, you know, if you're not there, I'll figure it out. How else is she to understand what comes out is what leads to the next move? You say this kind of stuff, you're going to get that kind of answer.

[Husband]

I know.

[Esther Perel]

So if you want an end to this misery, it's true that you will have to have a negotiation with the part of you that says, I deserve this.

[Husband]

Right?

[Esther Perel]

It's less about the child you were and more about the adult you will be.

[Narrator/Host]

You just heard a classic session of where should we Begin With Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York magazine. In the cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esterra's monthly newsletter, go to estheraparell.com Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity. In the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called where should we Begin? For details, go to her website, estheraparell.com.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

The Pumpkin Spice latte is back at Starbucks. Crafted with our signature espresso and real pumpkin sauce, then topped with whipped cream.

[Narrator/Host]

Cinnamon, and nutmeg, the psl.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Get it while it's hot or iced. Only at Starbucks.

[Esther Perel]

Thanks to smartsheet for their support. What would you do if you had.

[Narrator/Host]

More time in the day, even just one hour more?

[Esther Perel]

In reality, we actually all do have more time than we think, but that extra time is sucked up by distraction. Jumping from window to window and application to application to get a simple task.

[Narrator/Host]

Done creates endless pockets for distractions to slip in. That's why smartsheet lets your team manage all your workflows in one seamless platform, so you can clear the clutter and find that elusive extra time every single day.

[Esther Perel]

Work with flow.

[Narrator/Host]

Learn [e-mail] Vox.