The One Who Stays and the One Who Goes

Summary

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Episode Summary: “The One Who Stays and the One Who Goes”

Podcast: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Release Date: November 10, 2025

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Overview

In this episode, Esther Perel meets with a couple in their early thirties—both veterinarians—who are wrestling with the strains of divergent career paths, recurring physical and emotional separation, and the looming question of whether to start a family. Having shared a life and profession through veterinary school, they now face the challenges of balancing one partner’s passion for international research (and resultant long absences) and the other’s stable but demanding local clinical practice. The session dives into feelings of loneliness, guilt, differing expectations around partnership, unresolved family-of-origin patterns, and the need for new communication strategies as they contemplate the next phase of their lives together.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Transition from Shared Reality to Differentiation

• [01:41–02:10] The couple recounts their “in the trenches” closeness during veterinary school and how that intense shared reality papered over differences that are now surfacing as their lives have diverged.
• Esther Perel ([07:21–08:32]): “You are now in a developmental stage that is one of differentiation, in which each of you is trying to define themselves… a process of needing to articulate your needs, your pursuits, your ambitions…”

2. The Toll of Physical Separation: Who Stays, Who Goes?

• [02:24–03:02] The male partner describes the personal and professional fulfillment he finds during months-long international assignments, juxtaposed by the female partner’s feelings of being left to manage the entirety of their domestic life, house, and eight pets alone:
  • Partner 1: “…which can be really taxing for me.”
  • Partner 2: “…it feels like a life changing experience. Really impactful personal growth…”
• [12:30–13:24] The female partner opens up: “When you come back, it feels like we are not good enough… Like, the last time you came back, you didn't even want to give me a hug or a kiss.”

3. Unresolved Communication and Emotional Disconnect

• [09:27–09:40] Trust issues are exposed:
  • Esther: “What good does it do for you to say, I really care and I'm interested... if he doesn't believe it?”
  • Partner 1: “Feels like he doesn't.”
• [14:56–15:48] She describes her growing frustration and the sense that her dreams and desires are perpetually put on hold to support his ambitions.
  • Partner 1: “I’m in a constant hamster wheel… you get this exciting life where you can do whatever you want and I don't know.”

4. Guilt and Emotional Containment

• [24:22–25:23] The male partner’s guilt around absence, and his difficulty expressing warmth or enthusiasm upon return:
  • Partner 2: “I have a lingering sense of guilt for being gone and also for liking what I'm doing so much. While you are having a hard time.”
• [30:14–34:14] Perel identifies a cyclical pattern: the female partner feels she cannot express how hard things are during his absence, as he will only respond with guilt or problem-solving (not emotional support).
  • Esther ([30:14]): “...you are problem solvers… you don’t address the problem of the emotions, which don’t have a solution.”
  • Partner 1 ([33:11]): “A lot of the time [when] he’s gone, it very much feels like I can't talk about the challenges… because he's gonna feel guilty about it.”

5. The Inheritance of Family Dynamics

• [17:38–18:26] The male partner links his comfort with separation and focus on work to his own upbringing—his father, also a wildlife biologist, was absent much of the year.
  • Partner 2: “I think he was very lonely, and I know he missed being at home.”
• [37:08–39:00] He discusses emotional avoidance, rooted in growing up in a volatile household: “The most direct way I learned how to deal with it was having a singular focus on something and… not letting my emotions get out of whack.”

6. The Struggle to Express and Receive Love

• [43:04–44:49] Despite his readily shared admiration for his partner to others, the male partner expresses difficulty in being vulnerable and directly affectionate.
  • Partner 2 ([43:42]): “I have the hardest time saying I love you to the person I love the most… I keep some distance to protect myself.”
  • Partner 1: “I can try to be better at teaching you.”

7. The Question of Starting a Family and Compromise

• [52:29–53:47] Esther confronts the practical reality:
  • Esther: “Eight pets and one or two kids and two full careers with very little support… is going to crush you. You're going to have to start to be more creative, who may need to adjust for a period…”
  • Partner 1: “I feel like there has never been a compromise in these conversations…”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Esther Perel ([13:40]): “I feel more lonely even than when you're gone.”
• Esther Perel ([34:14]): “What does it take for us to be able to actually tolerate the distress of our partner without being instantly reactive and wanting it to stop?”
• Partner 1 ([35:29]): “I look forward so much when you're gone to talking to you… I wouldn't wanna waste that time.”
• Partner 2 ([46:22]): “The fact that we're paying a mortgage and have cars and are able to travel, that is 2/3 plus supported by her.”
• Esther Perel ([53:36]): “He wants the rest to stay put as it is.”
• Esther Perel ([47:23]): “I'm such a lucky guy. I am passionate about something, I'm quite selfish about it, and I'm so lucky to have you and I owe you so much.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Background and Origin Story: [01:41–03:18]
• The Challenge of Long Absences: [02:24–03:50]
• Articulating Needs Post-Grad School: [07:21–08:32]
• Communication Breakdown and Trust: [09:27–10:15]
• Reintegration Struggles After Absence: [12:30–16:00]
• Parental Models and Childhood Influence: [17:38–18:26]
• The Snowblower Incident—A Microcosm: [25:23–28:38]
• The Limits of Problem-Solving, Need for Emotional Support: [30:14–34:14]
• Phone Communication and Emotional Dread: [35:29–37:03]
• Difficulties Expressing and Receiving Love: [43:04–44:49]
• Career Sacrifice, Financial Realities, and Resentments: [45:30–47:23]
• The Need for Compromise Around Family Planning: [52:27–53:47]

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Flow and Dynamics

The session unfolds as a series of revelations, gradually shifting from surface logistics and complaints (“he’s gone all the time,” “I’m always alone with the pets”) to deeper emotional patterns rooted in family history and attachment style. Esther continually redirects the couple from problem-solving and blame toward expressing vulnerability, recognizing paradoxes, and seeing the emotional “padding” that’s missing in their exchanges.

Memorable is how the pets act as physical stand-ins for the absent partner or the warmth that can’t always be expressed between the humans in the room—symbolizing both their bond and the ways connection is displaced.

Esther ends by underscoring their life transition: moving from a shared, student-centric life to one requiring negotiation, flexibility, and sacrifice—not just for their own fulfillment, but for the family they might become.

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Concluding Insight

Ultimately, this episode offers a nuanced, touching exploration of how two people who love one another deeply can nonetheless struggle to bridge the gap between lives that have diverged—and how acknowledging the paradoxes of longing, guilt, ambition, and connection can open the path toward genuine compromise and intimacy.

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For a continuation (exploring sexuality in their relationship), listeners are invited to a follow-up episode available to subscribers.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? Is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Neiman Marcus. Our favorite holiday stories are full of fantasy and the best gift always contains a little bit of that fantasy. So when it comes to finding an exceptional gift this season, start with Neiman Marques. From elegant stocking stuffers to statement bags made for celebration to their legendary fantasy gifts, Neiman Marcus has something extraordinary for everyone. They also have style advisors who can guide you and make finding the perfect gift at every price point effortless. So head to Neiman Marcus for a truly unforgettable holiday.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

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[Esther Perel]

They met in veterinary school and they were five years together where they had very much of a shared reality both professionally and on a daily basis.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I always joke that like if you can get through vet school together, you can pretty much do anything that was basically in the trenches together trying to get through that.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I mean we have both been through just kind of very stressful, you know, veterinary school is not a walk in the park.

[Esther Perel]

Now he's in graduate school and that has taken him into the field for months on end and there have been a lot of challenges about how they are both living different realities.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

He travels often for his work, usually gone for weeks to months, which leaves me working my full time job dealing with all of our animals and a house by myself, which can be really taxing for me.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I am extremely passionate about what I do. Every time I get an opportunity to work in Kenya where I work, it feels like a life changing experience. Really impactful personal growth and opportunity and I have incredibly close relationships with the people who I work with.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

And when he comes back, he is excited to share this experience that he had which was so positive for him, but unfortunately it was so negative for me that it can make that conversation difficult.

[Esther Perel]

And it has brought up a lot of other challenges around intimacy, trust, togetherness and separateness. And around the next Developmental question. Can we talk about having a child?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

International travel has definitely featured in the discussion that we've been having about starting a family, or rather the discussion we haven't been having.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

He is wanting to take that next step in his life, wanting to start a family, and I don't feel ready for that.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

A few months ago, I brought it up again, and the response that I got was, we can talk about in October. The target keeps moving. If the answer is no, that's really devastating. But what's worse than a no is just being led on basically. Like, there's never any kind of resolution.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I feel myself constantly saying, but can you see it from my perspective? Do you understand why I feel the way that I feel?

[Esther Perel]

The session was on Zoom because they both claimed challenges around their professional schedules. And there were eight pets that joined us for the session. Guinea pigs, cats, dogs. They were very present. They made noise. They came to comfort. They had the physical experience that I did not have. So when they talk about bringing in a child into the family, it's because they already define themselves as a family. All right, give me a sense as to why we are here today and what would make this a helpful conversation.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Well, I feel like I could start since I'm the one who did reach out. So I was sort of feeling desperate, like, I don't know how to change the conversation we're having.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Because what we've been talking about in terms of having kids or starting a family, I would say we already have a family with all of our pets, but I would say non Peter family.

[Esther Perel]

Are any of them present in our session today?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Oh, there's a lot.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Right here.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Yes, there's one there.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I have four in the room.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

There's a couple dogs down there. I have a bunch of guinea pigs right here to my left. So it's sort of a zoo.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

All right.

[Esther Perel]

And are they important participants in the conversation about children?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I would say yes.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I would say yes in two ways. One, I think we've demonstrated an ability to care for animals and be caregivers. But two, it really comes into play when we talk about me being gone for long periods of time, which has been a sticking point of this conversation.

[Esther Perel]

So explain just a tiny bit. You travel for work.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah. So we both went to veterinary school together, and then she is a clinician. I fell in love with research and specifically working internationally, and now I'm in the final year of my PhD and have plans to continue my international vet medicine research career. During the PhD, I was basically abroad for two months of the year. And it's a bit of a conflict because if I'm successful in my career, I'll continue traveling. But it feels like it's coming at the expense of starting a family due to the logistical and other difficulties around it. So I think that's a big barrier.

[Esther Perel]

And that is something that the two of you see, or that's just your point of view because you share a lot. You went to school together, so you definitely had a very much of a shared reality. And in effect, you may have had to talk about things less because you were both living some of the same things and the shared reality spoke for itself. So you find yourself now needing to communicate because after five years, you did graduate school together. You are now in a developmental stage that is one of differentiation in which each of you is trying to define themselves. You're in a process of needing to articulate your needs, your pursuits, your ambitions, a whole range of things to articulate that are no longer provided by the circumstances of your life alone. Does that make sense?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Yeah, definitely.

[Esther Perel]

So what about that rang true for you?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Well, So I would 100% agree that US going to school together, that it was very much of a shared experience. I personally have found that in our professional life things have gotten a little more difficult for us communication wise because we're both very passionate about our professional lives and it, you know, it's basically kind of all we do. But I think that like, he can sometimes get quite frustrated because I don't participate in as much back and forth and true conversation about his research and stuff because I just don't have the understanding that he does. So I try to be an active listener and engage when I can, but because I don't have the same curiosity about the subject that he does, I know that that frustrates him.

[Esther Perel]

Can I ask you?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

You say my interest is there. Does he trust?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Feels like he doesn't.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so that's. See, it's less content and topic related and it's more relational. What good does it do for you to say, I really care and I'm interested and I'm an active listener? If he doesn't believe it or if it somehow doesn't come true, what is it that we are each doing that lends the other person that lack of trust?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah, maybe I could just add something because when you initially were saying about divergent paths post grad school, that really resonated with me. And I think something that's very characteristic of that is the actual experience that I have working abroad, and it's really meaningful to me professionally, but also personally living and working in a different culture and having these experiences with my collaborators and also community members who I get to work really closely with. And one thing that happens is I have a really hard time coming back to the US Unlike re entry, it's almost like reverse culture shock.

[Esther Perel]

And you rely. This is a question. Do you feel that you rely strongly on her overtly or covertly to help you cross the bridge and re enter?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Well, I think the issue with that is, honestly, I would like to rely on her more. But often what happens is that I feel guilty for enjoying my time there so much because the message that I get is, hold on, you're finally back.

[Esther Perel]

Say to her directly.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah. So when I come back, it's very hard for me to rely on you to help that process because I have a lingering sense of guilt for being gone and also for liking what I'm doing so much. While you are having a hard time.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I think the hard part for me is that he enjoys.

[Esther Perel]

Talk to him. Talk to him. You came here to talk to each other differently. I heard your initial statement. How do we change the conversation between us? It doesn't matter what we start to talk about. We're certainly not going to start talking about the most challenging, which is kids. Okay, okay.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

So when you come back, it feels like we are not good enough.

[Esther Perel]

Who is we?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

We as in me and all of the menagerie of animals.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

All the animals.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

That one day, if that conversation of a family is alive and present, there's going to be more than just the me and the animals. And whenever you come back, it just feels like you're so upset about not being there that you're not present with us. Like, the last time you came back, you didn't even want to give me a hug or a kiss. Like it was after being alone for months. That's what makes it really hard for me is that you come home and you're so frustrated that you're back, but.

[Esther Perel]

That'S not how you feel. That's how you perceive him. If I understand what you're saying about how you feel when you come back, I feel more lonely even than when you're gone.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Yeah, that's true.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah, for like a week, for like two weeks.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

But it. And even though it's.

[Esther Perel]

Hold on, hold on. What did you try to do with this? What was this comment about? Meaning to say, I don't stay in that state. It takes me a week or two.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

It's a transitional state.

[Esther Perel]

Right. But another week or two after two months for you it's just two weeks. For her it's two, three months plus two weeks.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah, I think if I can respond to that.

[Esther Perel]

So, oh, she was in the middle of something so we're going to let her continue. Yes. And I'm sure you have responses. Perhaps this is more about what really goes on for her because you're very busy with what goes on for you. Can we try that?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, go ahead.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

It just feels like again, we're just not exciting enough. I know you have wanderlust and that's okay. I think it's hard for me because I don't get that opportunity. I don't have the flexibility to do the stuff that you do. And some of that is because I'm a major provider for our family and our lifestyle and I feel that pressure of well, if I'm not working then these things can't happen. And so I think that's where maybe some of this pent up frustration and loneliness and everything comes from. Because it feels like I'm in a constant hamster wheel of my day to day and you get this exciting life where you can do whatever you want and I don't know.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Well, I think it's because you can't have your perfect career. You know, I get to pursue my dreams and your dreams are put on the back burner.

[Esther Perel]

It's a striking moment. Someone has just said I don't feel that we matter. And after all that he says it's because you don't get to do what you really want to do. That is a response that doesn't really invite one to feel heard. It doesn't feel to me that he's truly listening to her to understand what she may be experiencing. I have more of a sense that he's listening in order to justify, rationalize and that no matter what she's trying to say about how she feels, he comes back with an explanation and she relinquishes. And I am beginning to experience that it is not a given for her to claim her space. What she's actually talking about is how she thinks he doesn't value her and he seems to be disappointed that he's home and he seems to be frustrated when in fact what she's really trying to say is I feel very lonely when you're gone, but I feel even more lonely when you're back. And that is when I'm beginning to ask is this indicative of more. This doesn't feel to me, like it's just a one time thing. These begin to feel like patterns.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Well, my dreams wouldn't support what we, we want to be doing in our life right now. Right now. That's just not in the cards. So yeah, there is a level of me being frustrated about that.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I personally see a lot of our parent dynamics playing out in this scenario. Growing up, my dad was gone for four months out of the year for work and that was just normal for me.

[Esther Perel]

Can you give me a tiny bit of context for this?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

So my parents are wildlife biologists. They work in the field. My dad's kind of retired now, but growing up, you know, there were four months of the year that he was in the field quite far away, at least within the U.S. and that was just sort of a normal rhythm of life. But I know being gone for him was really difficult and I think he was very lonely and I know he really missed being at home.

[Esther Perel]

And you.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Me in terms of like that period?

[Esther Perel]

No, me. I decided that I was going to do this better and I wasn't going to be lonely when I traveled. Actually his question was the one I should have stayed with. Were you lonely? There is a story to the loneliness of the person who is gone and the loneliness of the person who stays and the loneliness of the children who are in the center of this whole thing. I do think that there is a dialogue between him and her that is happening, but also between him and the boy that he was and maybe between him and his father. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for where should we Begin Comes from Shopify. Starting a business means that there's a never ending to do list. So finding the right tool that can help you simplify everything can be life changing for millions of businesses. That tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. They have hundreds of ready to use templates to help design your brand's style. And they can make marketing easier by creating email and social media campaigns. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. You can turn your big business idea into a big success. With Shopify on your site you can sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Esther go to shopify.com Esther shopify.com EST support for where Should We Begin? Comes from Neiman Marcus. Our favorite holiday stories are full of fantasy, and the best gift always contains a little bit of that fantasy. So when it comes to finding an exceptional gift this season, start with Neiman Marcus. From elegant stocking stuffers to statement bags made for celebration to their legendary fantasy gifts, Neiman Marcus has something extraordinary for everyone. They also have style advisors who can guide you and make finding the perfect gift at every price point effortless. So head to Neiman Marcus for a truly unforgettable holiday. Support for Where Should We Begin Comes from Babbel does the idea of learning a new language intimidate you? You know the lo According to Babbel, between 70 and 90% of people who try to learn more a new language give up. Fortunately, Babbel is built to make it really easy to get started. My husband is still using Babbel to learn French, and when we spent a month doing a residency in Paris a while ago, he was able to put what he learned into practice. And I can hear how much his pronunciation is improving. Here's a special limited time deal for you right now. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription at babbel.com Esther get up to 55% off at babbel.com Esther Spelled b a b b e l.com Esther babbel.com Esther Rules and restrictions may appreciate.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Do.

[Esther Perel]

You ever miss home when you travel or you're so satiated in your assignment that it feels like it's another world and you don't really know how to maintain the connection?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah, I would say that when I'm doing that work, I have a really good ability to focus on like a goal. I'm like singularly focused on collecting the data, making the connections. Everything is really, really intensive.

[Esther Perel]

So what I'm hearing from you is I have no problem being away, but I compartmentalize to such a degree that I don't know how to hold on. You know, your challenge is the opposite of your dad. Your dad couldn't be away. You can't stay connected. You want a kid, but it's not clear that you will know how to stay connected to the kid who stays back. So you've kind of taken out all the difficult pieces, the loss and the longing you've plucked out and you've kept the adventure. And when you come back, I don't know if you relate to what your wife says to you when she says there's this weird thing there's something in the two week period that leaves your wife feeling that she pales in comparison. And she understands your passion, but she doesn't like the feeling that emanates toward her from your passion. And when you respond to her, you go right back to your passion. And I don't know if you ever address that icky feeling that she gets.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah, it's really tied up with guilt for me.

[Esther Perel]

But the guilt is for how much you enjoy being out there or the guilt is for how little enthusiasm you have for coming home. Because you always talk about. I feel guilty about how much fun I'm having out there. And I'm wondering where is the reflection on how little enthusiasm to the point where no kiss, no hug, just kind of let down.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah, I have a hard time with that example because the no kiss, no hug thing was because I literally lost part of my luggage.

[Esther Perel]

But how many days did it take you to get to the hug and the kiss after that? Yeah, so don't.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Well, I think it happened that day. Just not at the airport.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Right. It was maybe hours later, but after not seeing you for eight weeks, there.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Wasn'T like the excitement running to each other across the terminal. I mean, I mean, a little dramatic, but just. There wasn't that moment. Yeah, I think the guilt. So there's something I remember from two years ago that really defines it. When you called me trying to get the snowblower to work. Do you remember this? So there's a big time difference. Right. I think it's eight hours. So it was like six or seven in the morning for you.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

So it was like it was 4 o' clock in the morning for me because I had to go to work at 6:00am Got it.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

4:00'. Clock.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

And so I'm sitting on the phone with you and you are frustratingly trying to use the snowblower to clear our very short driveway. Which is something that I would do. And we of course learn later that the shear pins are broken. Doesn't matter. Basically it wasn't working and it wasn't going to work. And so I'm sort of sitting there on the phone thinking, what the heck am I supposed to do in this situation? If I was at home, I would figure this out. And so a lot of that guilt for me is like those things that I would normally be taking care of. I can't. I am not there to help you. And to me that's where the guilt is coming from. A lot.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I remember that story very differently. But that's okay.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

No, I'm actually would love to hear what you remember of it because it's so clear to me. I was like on the phone like shit, like I don't know how to solve this. I can't do anything.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Well, as I said, I remember it being 4 o' clock in the morning, not 7 or 8 because it was dark.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I had this.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Our 300 foot long driveway, not short driveway that was covered in about 6 plus inches of wet, heavy snow before I had to leave and be gone at work all day for 12 hours and leave our pets alone in the middle of winter. And I was on the verge of tears because I was so frustrated that I was going to be late for work and needing your help. Yes, there was a component where he could not help me, but I didn't know what else to do. Who was I going to call at 4 o' clock in the morning to help me? And that was only within the first couple of weeks of you being gone for the first time. And that for me is what kind of sealed the experience in a lot of ways that this is not fun. Which is why I said you're not allowed to go in the middle of winter anymore. Although now I have a plow guide that comes in, plows our driveway that I had to find.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Well, that's what I was going to say is like the end of that story is you called the guy up the street who runs a plow business and now he just does it.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

But that didn't change that experience.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

She has now tried three times to talk about her distress in various different forms. First, by making the time accurate, it was the middle of the night. Second, by telling him that it wasn't a short drive, but it's actually a long drive. And third, by telling him that the fact that she was able to to find someone to help her with the snowblower didn't change her experience emotionally. So she's not giving up, but she's doing it in a very gentle and a very minor way. I'm going to wind us back a moment because you brought in this example to talk about the difference between feeling guilty about how much you enjoy your immersion on your field work versus how guilty you may feel about the disconnect when you come home and when you describe the situation and you say, and I felt so bad that I couldn't help, I couldn't do anything. Did you communicate that.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Not well at the time? I don't think so. I think I was just like, you could try This I was trying to problem solve.

[Esther Perel]

So you are great problem solvers, both of you, but what you could add is a little more padding. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. It's not the same as I don't know what to do. I feel bad for you for having to deal with this in the middle of the night like this. I hate to see you alone having to do all of this. That's padding. And that is a piece to learn and to introduce in the way that you communicate. That's why she's calling. She's not calling for you to solve. She understands that you can't handle it. And especially if the machine is broken, there's not much you're going to do. She's smart. Now, I'm not sure that you know that that's what you're asking from him either. This is a dimension that is kind of kept tucked under between the two of you because you are problem solvers, and so you don't address the problem of the emotions, which don't have a solution. They're just paradoxes that you manage, not problems that you solve.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

That's a great way to put it. Maybe if I can ask a question. Would that experience have been different for you if I had just been supportive as opposed to. I don't know how well you remember what I was saying, but doesn't matter.

[Esther Perel]

It has happened many times.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And it's a beautiful question you just asked. That's a relational question. That's not about the snow or the blower. That's about your wife.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I think it would. I do feel like, in general, you tend to jump to problem solving, which I've just grown accustomed to at this point. And I don't necessarily hold it against you, but I know you don't like to hear someone just sit and vent. But sometimes that's what I need.

[Esther Perel]

I need to be able to call you in the middle of feeling bad. While I know that you can't help me to feel better, the issue is I'm really frustrated. And I'm not blaming you for it either. I'm just frustrated with the situation. But because you feel guilty, you don't know how to give her the space to feel bad. You're going to say, there's nothing I can do about it, and I'm going to say, you can do a ton, which is simply to be there for her.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Mm.

[Esther Perel]

Would that make a difference for you?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I think it would. A lot of the time of where he's Gone. It very much feels like I can't talk about the challenges that I'm experiencing because he's gonna feel guilty about it. It's. Well, why'd you bring that up? Now I feel guilty because I can't do anything about it. And I think that if I had more of that emotional support, I think that would definitely make me at least feel more seen of, just like this person that's here to care for the animals and the house so that there's not a fire. Speaking of fires, there's a lot of fires that I have to put out when you're not here. And it definitely. Again, going back to that whole conversation of guilt, I feel like I can't express how I'm feeling because then you'll feel guilty. And that's never been my goal. And I'm pretty sure I've even said that multiple times of like. I'm not saying this to make you feel guilty.

[Esther Perel]

We only have one session and we have three hours. And every move, they're getting closer to something that is truly important between them. This notion that I can't feel bad because if I feel bad, you feel guilty, and therefore I have to contain this. That in itself could be weeks of work together. What is actually happening to him? What is the sense of helplessness that he feels if he can't solve a problem? And what is the difference between being supportive and fixing? And what does it take for us to be able to actually tolerate the distress of our partner without being instantly reactive and wanting it to stop? And one of the ways we want it to stop is by telling them, don't do it, or by us fixing it so that they have nothing to feel bad about anymore. It's a ton of dynamics that are so familiar to so many of us that are just coming up here in one conversation. But still. Still I am not convinced that the guilt is the central issue. There is something bigger underneath that I hope we will get to.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

When you're traveling, we maybe talk on the phone twice a week. And why would I waste that time starting an argument? Because I'm telling you something that's gonna make you frustrated. And that's partly why I close in. Because I look forward so much when you're gone to talking to you. Like, I just. I wouldn't wanna waste that time.

[Esther Perel]

Do you know how much she's looking forward to talking to you? No, she just said it. But I don't know that that's said very often.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I really don't.

[Esther Perel]

Wow.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I don't Know why I feel uncomfortable on the phone, especially in those circumstances? Just feels like there's a lot of pressure because we're maybe talking twice a week. It's almost like an anticipation of something bad is going to happen. And then it gets to the point where I'd rather compartmentalize it or not dwell on it so that it doesn't make me upset. It's not like that every time. But, yeah, sometimes there's a sense of dread.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

It's really sad.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

It's not universal.

[Esther Perel]

And I dread what.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

The guilt or stress or conflict.

[Esther Perel]

So unpack that one for us, please.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I'm trying to figure out how much I should get into here. So I grew up in a pretty emotionally volatile household with a lot of outbursts and learned how to deal with that in my own way. But I think the most direct way I learned how to deal with it was having a singular focus on something and not. Not letting my emotions get out of whack. So that's why avoidance is a common occurrence.

[Esther Perel]

But I'm gonna ask you. So you said, how much shall I say?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Enough that the sadness that she just felt is sadness for you and not that she's the source of the sadness. So you talked about the guilt. You talked about what it was like to be the kid who saw.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Your.

[Esther Perel]

Parents deal with these long absences. How did they handle it? What did you do with the volatility? And how did you become a master at compartmentalizing? And when you compartmentalize to the way you do, it's hard for you to be away and to say to her, I miss you.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

It is. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Without feeling guilty about the fact that you're gone, which then makes her feel lonely. It's like, how do I hold two feelings at the same time? I'm glad to be in the field. And I miss you.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I have a very hard time with that.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. How do we change the conversation? Is going to involve your learning to do more of that.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And I suspect that this is what he had to learn when his father was in the field. This notion of how do you feel close and connected even when you're gone? Is actually a very important concept. It starts in what babies experience called object constancy. Right. It's what allows us to play hide and seek. That's the playful version of where we practice this all the time. Afterwards, the person is there even when I don't see them, is one of the essential pieces of internalizing connection and building trust. And what he's saying is, I don't know how to do that. If I go in the field, I forget about my whole life. I don't know how to internalize it and hold it. So the guilt becomes the way with which he holds on to the connection while at the same time be gone. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

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[Esther Perel]

Hey, can you wrap these please?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Wow.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

IPhone 17s, you splurged at T Mobile.

[Esther Perel]

You can get four iPhone 17s on them. It's the perfect gift for everyone. I'm the worst.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I only got my mom a robe.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Well, it's better than socks.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

So I have to trade in my old phone, right?

[Esther Perel]

No AT T Mobile there's no trade ins needed when you switch. Keep your old phone or give it as a gift.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Incredible.

[Esther Perel]

In fact, wrap up my old phone too for my Aunt Rosa. Forget that. Aunt Liz will be jealous.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Sounds like my family drama.

[Esther Perel]

Oh I got it. I'll give it to my abuela.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I'll take reindeer paper with hey where are you going?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

To T Mobile.

[Esther Perel]

Thanks Zoey.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

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[Partner 1 (Female)]

Feed.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

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[Partner 1 (Female)]

I don't know how to answer that for you.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah, I don't get it.

[Esther Perel]

What is it you avoid? What's the fear in saying that? The person that's next to you, how much you care about them and how important they are to you.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

There shouldn't be. That's why I'm confused.

[Esther Perel]

But there shouldn't be in a rational logic, but there often is in an emotional logic. So you're saying I have the hardest time saying I love you to the person I love the most?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah, sorry. You're opening up a lot of feelings with that one. I think the people who you are closest with have the biggest capacity to hurt you. And I feel like unintentionally I keep some distance from you to protect myself, which I don't feel that way logically, but it seems like your family has such an easy time saying I love you. You almost had to teach me how to do that because I did not have that as a practice. I still feel weird saying it out loud. So I would like to learn from you how to do that better and be intentional about it, because that's actually how I feel.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I can try to be better at teaching you.

[Esther Perel]

This was such an interesting moment because at the moment he says, I would like you to teach me to say I love you, the dog came immediately over to him and licked his hands. And I thought maybe it's actually easier for him to say I love you to the dog. And it won't be unusual in many families that a certain kind of emotionality and expressiveness of tender feelings can be expressed to the pet or even to the caressing of the pet in ways that people cannot do with each other.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Something you said earlier is something that I ask myself constantly, which is, I do not have to pursue a career in what I'm doing. I was a small animal vet for a year. I didn't want to pursue it as a career, but it's a wonderful profession, and I'm qualified and capable and able to do that. And I would be right here for however long the Next, you know, 30, 40 years, I could work in vet med and have a really successful career. Everything.

[Esther Perel]

Or is it okay and easy for you to acknowledge that the way that she has set up her career is what is enabling you to do the field work that you are doing?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

I would say not just the fieldwork, but like our lifestyle.

[Esther Perel]

Our lifestyle.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

So the fact that we bought a house not even to get into my student debt situation, but the fact that we're paying a mortgage and have cars and are able to travel, that is 2/3 plus supported by her.

[Esther Perel]

And can you comfortably acknowledge it without it choking you with guilt?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yes. But the logical part of me says, why are you putting so much pressure in this situation when if you just did something different, everything would be a lot easier? Why am I the way I am and want to do all these other things?

[Esther Perel]

But that's part of the guilt talk. So you're back thinking about you and it makes it more difficult for you to actually say, I'm such a lucky guy. I am passionate about something, I'm quite selfish about it, and I'm so lucky to have you and I owe you so much.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah. I have maybe a question that would help this. So if I can ask.

[Esther Perel]

Of course.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

So how do you perceive me within the context of what I do? And if I did something different, would that change? Like, are you attracted or impressed by it, or would you just wish that I did something different?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

You're asking me if my attraction to you revolves around what you do for your career?

[Esther Perel]

Would you respect me equally if I did something?

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah. Like, how much does it play into?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Doesn't.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

So it's not a benefit at all, it's just detracting.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I value your confidence, your intelligence. For me, it wouldn't matter what you did. And I think what you do now is great. But for me, I don't care about that. That doesn't change how I view you as a person. To me, that's not important.

[Esther Perel]

Clear answer. I actually think that this is a question that is less from him to her and more from him to the child inside of him. And what I'm hearing now is that it alludes to how many kids idealize what their parents do to make their absence often more tolerable. Doing important things, saving humanity, being a fireman in the night. If you do something truly big and I can idealize it, then I somehow can accept your absence better. And he's asking it to her, but she's not the child, so she says, I like you as the way you Are I like you just the way you are. So this is another moment where I think bringing in the history of his family of origin would have probably helped us understand this a little bit better.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

It's kind of the opposite. I was hoping it would be a benefit so I could justify doing it.

[Esther Perel]

Sneaky.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

That was, that was my thought.

[Esther Perel]

But yeah, so that thought for me, that's very interesting. If you had said that the draw is in what I do, I could have used it for the rest of our life together to justify. And back then with that woman in 2025, you told me how much you found what I do so inspiring. So don't come now and tell me that it produces hardships on you.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

No. Well, that leads me to another question which I hope is not as malicious as that one. Sneaky as that one.

[Esther Perel]

Stinky is a good word.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah. Do you feel like what I do at home supports what you do, being the main provider and like am I providing you support and trying to take care of stuff? Does it allow you to do your profession better as well? Does it feel reciprocal to you or does it feel like a one way street?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I've already said that it does. I said on multiple occasions that you are the primary person that's responsible for our day to day. And that's why when I'm alone by myself for these weeks on end, it's extremely challenging because then I'm not just doing my job, but I'm also doing your job when it comes to the home stuff. And I already have a very demanding work and so I know that it's very helpful for me. When I leave the house at 6:30 in the morning, I'm not home till 7 o' clock at night that I don't have to think about feeding the pets and sometimes doing the dishes and sometimes making dinner because you're home and you're able to.

[Partner 2 (Male)]

Yeah, thanks for saying that. Feels nice.

[Esther Perel]

In some way he actually holds a lot of things that he's in charge of. And when he's gone, you know, it's one of these things where you say one person is doing the job of a bunch, so when he's gone, it's the bunch that is missing.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

Totally.

[Esther Perel]

And if you're gonna have kids, this has to shift. Somebody's gonna have to make adaptations. Meaning both of you, eight pets and one or two kids and two full careers with very little support around you is going to crush you. I mean it's totally fine, but you're going to have to start to be more creative who may need to adjust for a period, who gets priorities for two, three years, and then the other person gets priorities. How do we make this flexible?

[Partner 1 (Female)]

I think that's why I'm so hesitant in all of this, because I feel like there has never been a compromise in these conversations. It's just been a well, she's sacrificing to do this career so that I can do my PhD and I can travel and I want a family.

[Esther Perel]

But he wants the rest to stay put as it is.

[Partner 1 (Female)]

And that's what I struggle with, because I just see once again, the only option being that I sacrifice my career again.

[Esther Perel]

So that is a concrete thing that needs to change and that is totally doable. But it will require you not to think, just what do I need? But more, what does the family need? Not just to survive, but to thrive. One theme of this session was about how can we have a conversation about having a child that she's not avoiding shutting down, and that puts us in a place where we can't talk about this. But the second subject was this is a couple that is going through developmental transitions when they were students together, they shared a reality on a daily basis, and choices that we make because we are students or because we are just the two of us demand different answers than choices that we make when we try to expand and to become a family. These are developmental questions and there is nothing inherently problematic about it. At the last moment, as we were talking about all these conversations that they wanted to have, the subject of sexuality came up and we ended up having, in fact, a whole other session about that. And so I invite you to listen to that session whether you are a subscriber on substack or in Apple Podcast Where Should We Begin With Esther Pro is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Atten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Neiman Marcus. Our favorite holiday stories are full of fantasy, and the best gift always contains a little bit of that fantasy. So when it comes to finding an exceptional gift this season, start with Neiman Marcus. From elegant stocking stuffers to statement bags made for celebration to their legendary fantasy gifts, Neiman Marcus has something extraordinary for everyone. They also have style advisors who can guide you and make finding the perfect gift at every price point effortless. So head to Neiman Marcus for a truly unforgettable holiday. Mercury knows that to an entrepreneur, every financial move means more. An international wire means working with the best contractors on any continent, a credit card on day one means creating an ad campaign on day two, and a business loan means loading up on inventory for Black Friday. That's why Mercury offers banking that does more all in one place, so that doing just about anything with your money feels effortless. Visit mercury.com to learn more. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group Column NA and Evolve bank and Trust Members FDIC.