The Permission to Be and Not Just the Pressure to Do

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Episode: The Permission to Be and Not Just the Pressure to Do
Date: December 15, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this deeply resonant session, iconic psychotherapist Esther Perel speaks with a young Black man confronting the immense weight of living a life defined by achievement and external validation. Together, they unspool the intersection between individual drive, family tragedy, societal expectations—particularly around Black excellence—and the search for a sense of self that isn't contingent on “the next big thing.” The episode explores how historical and cultural forces shape both ambition and the struggle to feel inherently worthy, offering reflective, practical insight into claiming the right to simply exist rather than constantly feeling pressured to prove one’s worth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Early Conditioning & The Achievement Trap

• Participant’s Background:

  • Raised from childhood to seek validation via achievement and prestigious titles.
  • Felt a deep connection between family expectations and his own sense of worth.
  • Struggled to find satisfaction even in high-status careers, always feeling the need to pursue something more.

  “Since I was a kid, so much of my validation came from titles... My ambition has even shaped my relationships... When I'm achieving, I feel validated. When I'm not, I sometimes feel restless and unsure of who I am without something to chase.” [00:01]

• Impact of Loss:

  • The murder of his older brother at age ten had a profound impact.
  • Academic and professional pursuit became coping mechanisms, a way to “ease the pain” and bring celebration back to his family.
  • Not fully conscious at the time, it became clear in hindsight.

  “He was killed... I saw academic achievement and professional pursuit as a way to sort of work through the grief, as a way to sort of keep people happy.” [03:37–05:04]

Family, Race, and Societal Pressure

• Family Pressure:

  • High-achieving family (sister was valedictorian); pressure to excel came from both personal and familial sources.

• Societal Layer:

  • Explores the concept of “Black excellence” and the idea that Black people must achieve at twice the level to be considered equally.
  • Discusses societal and cultural expectations that reinforce the need for continual achievement.

  “You know, being black in a society, you're taught you have to do twice as much to get half as much... There’s a pressure to be... you see black excellence often and that's... a theme.” [05:21–06:32]

  Esther: “There may be a family layer and then there may be a personal layer, but there's also majorly a societal layer to this message. I mean, black excellence does not exist with other names in the front like that.” [06:32]

• Pushback on Black Excellence:

  • There’s debate and pushback on what “excellence” should look like—does it require degrees or high-status jobs, or is it present in living an authentic, ordinary life?

  “Some people push back against this notion of black excellence. Like, you can be excellent and not have a master's... and just have a normal job.” [07:22–07:49]

Achievement, Burnout, and Boredom

• Modern Career Disillusionment:

  • Even “sexy” jobs like television reporting didn’t provide fulfillment.
  • Chronic feeling of “this is not enough”—a drive for ‘the next thing’ leading to burnout.

  “I think I have a chronic feeling of this is just not enough. Like, I need to do more. Something's always, I need something else new, something more than this.” [09:53]

• Pandemic Impact:

  • The pandemic intensified feelings of disconnection and burnout in his media job.

• Graduate School & Constant Movement:

  • Simultaneously pursued a graduate degree while working full-time as part of the constant push to do more.

The Cycle of Proving Oneself

• Perel Reframes the Question:

  • It’s not just about what the participant wants to do, but how to create a life where self-worth isn’t locked into constant achievement.

  Esther: “Your question is not what do I want to do? Your question is, how do I create a situation... where no matter which I choose, it doesn't stay trapped in the cycle of proving myself, constantly needing more...” [10:44–11:20]

• Commonality and Solidarity:

  • Pressure is common among peers; these themes of disillusionment and uncertainty are shared within his friend group, though often discussed only one-on-one, not openly.

  “All of us. I said all of us.” [11:25] “We've come to the point even before 30, recognizing... what we were promised... But that's not the case.” [12:18]

Individual, Historical, and Structural Dynamics

• Intersectionality:

  • Esther emphasizes the importance of not internalizing a systemic problem—recognizing the multilayered context (personal, familial, societal, historical).

  “You can't talk about the desire for achievement outside of the context of the pressure on black excellence. If you try to just make it an individual conflict, it's not correct, and it's not fair to you because it's internalizing an entire system.” [16:36]

Relationships & Self-Concept

• Relationships as Another Arena for Proving Self-Worth:

  • The participant shares that his focus on professional achievement also affected his romantic relationships.
  • After a significant breakup and a layoff at once, he experienced an “identity crisis.”

  “A lot of my achievement also had to do with [the relationship] too... Hard to figure out who I am, you know, career. And that is when the breakup happened this same week the relationship ended.” [14:53–15:54]

The Challenge of “Being” Not Just “Doing”

• Rest, Laziness, and Inherent Worth:

  • Deeply conditioned reluctance to rest due to the broader stereotypes historically associated with Black people.
  • Esther introduces the idea that granting oneself legitimacy to simply “be” is itself an act of resistance.

  Esther: “How do I experience the right, the legitimacy? How do I experience that entitlement in the good sense of the word to just be in the world... And that in itself is an act of resistance, by the way.” [24:12–26:21]

• Participant’s Reflection:

  • Struggles to internalize worthiness without external accomplishment; recognizes the gap between understanding something intellectually and embodying it emotionally or spiritually.

  “My worthiness is inherent is the way that I would think about that. And it's not something to prove...” [26:48]

  Esther: “Can you, can you imagine that this is not just a statement? Because we can say things to convince ourselves. When we are convinced, we often don't need to say it. We live it. And I think it's developmental.” [27:05]

Affirming Inherent Worthiness

• Repeated Affirmation:

  • In an exercise, Esther asks the guest to repeat, “My worth is inherent and I don't have to prove myself to be worthy.” [27:45, 27:54]

• Barriers to Belief:

  • Guest can more easily see inherent value in others than in himself, but is working to internalize the statement personally.

The Role of Close Relationships & Community

• Family Dynamics:

  • Raised primarily by his mother and grandparents, with a strong network of supportive teachers and mentors (his “other moms”).
  • Emotional absence but psychological presence of father.

  Esther: “A parent can be very present by their absence.” [42:07]

• Assignment from Esther:

  • Suggests actively asking elders and mentors—the community around him—how they dealt with similar struggles, not just in crisis but in reflection.

  “You have a beautiful community. You have a rich community of people. That's the first one you turn to and you ask them those very questions.” [45:09–46:16]

  “Sometimes I think these kinds of complex problems are actually not problems that we solve, but paradoxes that we manage.” [49:38–50:04]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Black Excellence:

  “Black excellence does not exist with other names in the front like that... It’s a societal pressure.”
  — Esther Perel [06:32]

• On Burnout from Achievement:

  “I think I have a chronic feeling of this is just not enough. Like, I need to do more. Something's always, I need something else new, something more than this. Boredom can be a big part of it.”
  — Guest [09:53]

• On Worthiness:

  “My worth is inherent and I don't have to prove myself to be worthy.”
  — Guest, at Esther’s urging [27:45–27:54]

• On Rest as Resistance:

  “How do I experience the right, the legitimacy? How do I experience that entitlement in the good sense of the word to just be in the world without this running drone ruminating constantly in my head… And that in itself is an act of resistance, by the way.”
  — Esther Perel [26:12–26:21]

• On Community and Solidarity:

  “The more I share, the more it sort of normalizes it... That's what's helped me, I think, understanding that, like... I'm not alone in any of it.”
  — Guest [48:04–48:21]

• On Managing Paradox vs. Solving Problems:

  “Sometimes I think these kinds of complex problems are actually not problems that we solve, but paradoxes that we manage.”
  — Esther Perel [49:38–50:04]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Childhood & Family Backstory: [00:01–05:58]
• Impact of Brother’s Loss & Early Coping: [03:32–05:21]
• The Pressure of Black Excellence: [05:21–07:49]
• Job Disillusionment, Burnout & Pandemic: [08:19–10:44]
• Society, Race, and The Race for Validation: [10:44–12:11]
• Relationship Experiences & Self-Concept: [13:29–16:03]
• Internalized Pressure vs. Systemic Forces: [16:20–17:54]
• Intellectualizing vs. Living Inherent Worth: [27:05–28:36]
• Financial, Occupational Anxiety & Enoughness: [31:04–32:22]
• Developmental Arc & “What Life Puts in Front of You”: [32:18–35:08]
• How Community Can Support Worthiness: [41:24–43:41]
• Esther’s Assignment: Ask Your Elders: [44:00–46:16]
• Living in Paradox, Not Solving It: [49:38–50:04]
• Closing Reflections on Validation & Belonging: [51:32–52:13]

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Tone & Language

The episode is heartfelt, reflective, and richly empathetic, with Esther’s signature blend of directness and warmth. The guest is candid, thoughtful, and deeply honest about his internal landscape and the complex systems around him. Their conversation moves fluidly between the personal and the structural, maintaining an authentic, vulnerable tone throughout.

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For Listeners: Takeaways

• Achievement can become a coping mechanism for grief, loss, and systemic pressures, but it does not address root needs for belonging and rest.
• The pressure for Black excellence is both a cultural source of pride and a heavy societal burden.
• Feeling “enough” is not a state to be reached once and for all, but a developmental, ongoing process—perhaps less a problem to solve than a paradox to be managed.
• Community solidarity—actively seeking elder and peer wisdom—can reframe isolation and provide intergenerational insight.
• Rest and simply “being” aren’t just personal acts of self-care for marginalized people—they serve as cultural resistance to narratives of perpetual striving.

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This episode is a testament to the complex layers of identity, societal messaging, and the lifelong work of learning to “be,” not just “do.”

Transcript

[A]

Hi, Esther. Since I was a kid, so much of my validation came from titles. Being labeled gifted and talented. Hearing I was destined for great things, I did what we were told would lead to success. Go to school, work hard, follow the rules, follow the right path, quote unquote. After college, I became a reporter on television. I thought it would be as exciting as it looked, but it wasn't. And it took me years to grieve that path that I left behind. But even doing the right thing didn't protect me from layoffs, detours or breakup. The realization that achievement doesn't always bring security or happiness. My ambition has even shaped my relationships in one My constant focus on what's next sometimes created a distance I couldn't close. When I'm achieving, I feel validated. When I'm not, I sometimes feel restless and unsure of who I am without something to chase. So my question is, how do I start to separate my identity and self worth from my professional achievements? And how do I redefine success in a way that still feels meaningful without it being the only thing that defines me?

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

Anything you want to add? Change?

[A]

No, I don't think so.

[B]

So then let's start from the beginning of your question. Right.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I was raised and told always that I'm gifted, talented, and that I'm going to do big things and I should start to work on it from day one. What's the context to this?

[A]

I think the biggest context, you know, is for me growing up in a world where I think I've equated a lot of my value to what I can achieve.

[B]

But how did you learn that connection from where?

[A]

I would say probably starting at home. You know, it's like, you know, being agreeable is the thing. You know, it's like you do well, you get rewarded, you know, if you don't do well, there's always an expectation that I do well.

[B]

Was the whole family high achieving or the expectation was put on you?

[A]

I think the whole family, like my sister was valedictorian. And part of it too is I lost my older brother when I was 10. He was seven years older than me. So he passed away. And so a lot of, I think from. Oh, he was killed, he was shot, he was killed.

[B]

That's not the same as he passed away.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

You know, that's a very different kind of loss. And he was killed because.

[A]

What he was really an innocent bystander. He was leaving work with his co worker, he was working at a mall. And the coworker had a stalker ex boyfriend who was older than her by a significant margin and the boyfriend came and killed them both. I guess he was targeting her, but our brother was next to her. So.

[B]

So achievement after that loss was.

[A]

Well, I think for me it was always. I saw academic achievement and professional pursuit as a way to sort of work through the grief, as a way to sort of keep people happy. Get people happy.

[B]

Yeah, keep people. Starting with my parents.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I will give them something to celebrate and it will ease the pain of the loss of my brother. Sure. Were you aware of that? Was that a conscious.

[A]

No, not at 10. At 11, 12 now older, I can look back in hindsight and think and see that and recognize that. But then you get all A's, you get an award, you get something for that. But it wasn't conscious at that point. It just sort of the expectation, I think, you know, part of it too, in this society. You know, being black in a society you're taught you have to do twice as much to get half as much. And so that, that pressure as well.

[B]

Yes. I was about to ask, what's the connection for you on a personal level? What with race? I don't want to make any assumptions.

[A]

No. Yeah. I mean, I think it's part of it. You know, there's a compensation for race. You know, there's a. There's a pressure to be. You know, you see black excellence often and that's. That's sort of a theme. And so you want to be seen as excellent. But a lot of that is external. Validation. I'm getting to a point now where I don't care as much. But, you know, it was about the next award given, getting the job title, going to the best schools, if you could, in order to be seen as excellent and, I guess, acceptable in a lot of circles to a lot of people.

[B]

But that is not only, by far, not only a personal pressure, that's a societal pressure. This I need to achieve. I mean, there may be a family layer and then there may be a personal layer, but there's also majorly a societal layer to this message. I mean, black excellence does not exist with other names in the front like that, you know.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's really a cultural thing. I think. Obviously, it comes through a history of what we experience.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But there comes a certain pressure with that. And then, you know, where I live.

[B]

Huge pressure.

[A]

Yeah, huge pressure. And there are a lot of pushback. There's a lot of pushback on what that means. But I think, you know, what do you mean.

[B]

What do you mean when you say that?

[A]

A lot of pushback. So some people, you know, push back against this notion of black excellence. Like, you can be excellent and not have a master's. You know, you can be excellent and not have a college education. You can be excellent and just have a normal, quote, unquote, normal job. For me, I don't think I've ever had a quote, unquote, normal job. I've always had these roles that were seen as sort of sexy then I was always disillusioned when I got them.

[B]

Did you see them as sexy or did you see them as fulfilling? Fulfilling the requirement?

[A]

Both. Is that. Yeah, both. I think I won't tell you.

[B]

Yes. No, no. You're describing your life.

[A]

I'm describing my life. Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's like the job I should like because it looks good versus I am drawn to this as well. They may be both, but there needs to be at least the. And me, too.

[A]

Yeah. For example, I was drawn to doing television because I thought that I was something I just was good at and I was good at communicating. But there was an element of it that was a little bit. There's a little bit of, I think, ego in the best way to say that you want to be on TV every day. And so, yes, it looks sexy, but it was also something I knew that I wanted to do, but that was also a little bit of something imposed upon me. It was like, you should do this job. People thought you should be a reporter, you should be on television. You Know, coming up, I was always on the school news show or something like that, you know. But when I got in it, I was deeply. And this is during the pandemic, so it was deep disconnection, you know, during that time. And I was, like, running myself into the ground doing that job. And I was like, this is not what I signed up for, what I thought it would be.

[B]

Do you think it would have been different if you had started at a different time?

[A]

I did start a little bit before the pandemic a year prior, but even then I said, this is not it. But the pandemic sort of exacerbated that.

[B]

And it's not it because of the nature of what you were doing, or it's not it because it doesn't fix the chronic optimization. The chronic racial optimization, too, for that matter, that I am constantly under. So no job is ever good enough to finally make me stop the race. It's like the race for the race.

[A]

Yeah. I think I have a chronic feeling of this is just not enough. Like, I need to do more. Something's always, I need something else new, something more than this. Boredom can be a big part of it. So I do think there are a couple of factors. So, yes, the job itself was just burnout, central, low pay, but then also just like, okay, what's next? I have to get to the next place. Like, I'm done living where I'm at now. This is too small. This is too stressful or too whatever. And it's time for me to get to the next point in my life, to the next venture. So even when I was reporting, I was also working on a graduate degree. And most people say, how in the world were you doing that? But, you know, it was like, what's new? What's next? Have to move on to the next thing.

[B]

So your question is not what do I want to do? Your question is, how do I create a situation and can I where no matter which I choose, it doesn't stay trapped in the cycle of proving myself, constantly needing more. Because the minute I slow down, it looks like I'm no longer in the black excellence trajectory. And I have all these enormous pressures on me.

[A]

Yeah, that's the better frame.

[B]

Do you share this with other fellow people?

[A]

All of us. I said all of us.

[B]

All of you. Okay. Because this is huge. You know, this is. You're not meant to ever. I mean, not that I don't think you know that, but sometimes people have a tendency to keep these things to themselves, and then it becomes even further Exacerbated. Because now it's a solitary lament and pressure versus if I come together with other people, my group and other groups, and we talk about these pressures and we talk about us in society, then it's less an issue of jobs and careers and it's really, when is enough enough?

[A]

What's good enough?

[B]

Yeah, tell me about the solidarity that you have.

[A]

I think a lot of my closest friends, we've come to the point even before 30, recognizing. I guess again, this is where disillusionment comes up around society when we say what we were promised. You know, coming up, you go to the right schools, get the grades, go, you know, you get the job. But that's not the case. And I think we've realized that now more acutely now during the pandemic and coming out of that with layoffs and friends. I know, like myself, like, nobody would have told me I would have been laid off three times in three years, you know, in effect, because I got all the things or like my friends who've been in similar situations, who've been out of work for a year now, but they have all the things, all the degrees, all the connections and just general. And my friends who've not been in that situation, but who have also the pressure, had a sort of pressure and really more on the loss of dreams that they thought they'd have or they're not in a place where they thought they'd be. So, yeah, we have these conversations like one to one, but we don't have these conversations like, I'm open in a group or like Instagram, you know, you're doing fabulous, you're in the trip.

[B]

No, but at some point, so, you know, as you're speaking, I'm thinking, what does this young black man, talented and well supported, expect from this middle aged Jewish European woman? What can she bring to him? How can she help him with this dilemma? I'm very curious. What led you to think, you know, I want to discuss this with Pharrell.

[A]

Well, obviously. How'd you work? I don't know. You're really insightful in terms of relationships. Relationships to the self, relationships to how you relate to the world. I think over the course of the year, you know, your work has helped me tremendously. Not just in the relationship too with like myself, but even like when I was in a relationship. I remember my therapist told me about your work and, and how you put language to a lot of the things that I was experiencing during that time. I was really young when I got in my first relationship. I was 22 and we were together for over five years and it ended, you know, it's hard, you know, being same gender, loving black and all these expectations, you know, in my first relationship. So a lot of, A lot of my achievement also had to do with that too.

[B]

You were same age?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. About six weeks apart, really. And grew up together. Knew each other for like 20 years. And so a lot of.

[B]

Still connected?

[A]

No, no, no, not at all. No. No connection, no. Haven't heard from. But a lot of your work gave a lot of language to what I was experiencing at that time, you know, and it's been a long journey on that front too, you know, navigating who I am outside of the context of relationship. Especially coming up in my 20s, you know, in college and then having moved, we moved to a whole another city together and started a life there. There's a huge developmental thing happening, then it ends, you know, it's hard to figure out who I am, you know, career. And that is when the breakup happened this same week the relationship ended. So I'm like in chaos.

[B]

The breakup in the relationship ended the same week as.

[A]

Around the same time as what? Oh, I'm sorry. The same time I got laid off from my, from a job. So I got laid off the same week the breakup endured.

[B]

So he was like, that's a week you will remember.

[A]

It's a week I will remember. So, yeah, I. Yeah, you just give good language. So that's why, to answer your question.

[B]

But we are trying to put language on pressure. Is that how you. Well, you know what, here's what I'm going to suggest. I'm not going to put language. We are going to create language together.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Because I think it will be more useful to you if we find the right words together and we may change them. I may suggest things, but I don't think you can talk about the desire for achievement outside of the context of the pressure on black excellence. If you try to just make it an individual conflict, it's not right, it's not correct, and it's not fair to you because it's internalizing an entire system. When you say, I wanted to please my parents and make them feel good to assuage some of the grief that they were feeling, that's personal. That could be anyone's story and anyone's desire. But the pressure to make it the constant feeling that wherever you are, instantly you need more, lest you become a non achieving black gay man with a lot of credentials that cannot be separated from the societal and the cultural framework in which it exists and history. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify. If you've been thinking about starting a business but have just been waiting for a sign, here it is. 2026 is the year and Shopify can help. Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person. Millions of entrepreneurs have already already made this leap from household names to first time business owners just getting started. Shopify gives you all the tools to easily build your dream store. Choose from hundreds of beautiful templates that you can customize to match your brand, and as you grow, Shopify grows with you. That means you can handle more orders, expand to new markets, and do it all from the same dashboard in 2026. Stop with waiting and start selling with Shopify. Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com Esther go to shopify.com Esther that's shopify.com Esther here your first this new year with Shopify by your side. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Quo Missing a business call is missing a custom Quo spelled Q U O is the smarter way to run your business communications. Quo is a business phone system that makes sure you never miss an opportunity to connect with your customers. Quo works right from an app on your phone or computer. Your whole team can share one number and collaborate on calls and texts like a shared inbox. And Quo's not just a phone system, it's a service smart system. Their building AI logs calls, writes summaries and even sets up next steps. And if you can't answer the phone, Kuo's AI agent can qualify leads, route calls to the right person and make sure that no customer is ever left hanging. Try it for free when you go to quo.com begin that's qu-o.com begin you can and even keep your existing number quo no missed calls, no missed customers. Support for Where Should We Begin Comes from Quince. This season quince is offering $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters that look and feel like designer pieces, down outerwear built for winter, and beautifully tailored Italian war wool coats that are soft to the touch and made to last season after season. Plus, every piece is made with premium materials from trusted factories and priced far below what other luxury brands charge. I've tried Quince and the pieces I always go for are the Mongolian cashmere sweaters, the scarves and wraps. Not only do I love them for myself but they are the perfect gifts for all of my knees. Nearest and dearest, you can find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with Queens. You can go to queens.com begin for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada, too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com begin to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Queens.com begin. What do you think of the words so far?

[A]

That's. That's my right. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that there is the personal and then there is the larger context or the interpersonal structures that we live in. I found myself, I think, too, just trying to figure out how do I come of age in this world with all my different identities and how do I fit into the world?

[B]

Are you in your 20s or in your 30s?

[A]

20S. I'll be 30 next year.

[B]

Okay. Honestly, this is an iterative process. What I am more cautious about for you is that you not translate the pressure into, this is boring. This is not what I expected. I'm disillusioned by the job. And you think that it has to do with the job rather than with an internalized system of pressure, because then you're never going to actually enjoy what you do. So you can go to the things you want the most or you can go to the things that, you know, have cache. And status doesn't really change anything if what defines them is, am I holding up to the standard so I don't look like somebody who's not driven, who's lazy, who's this? Who's that? Whatever. All the stuff black people have had to hear and endure, I never want.

[A]

To be seen as lazy. And that's one thing. Yes, lazy. And I remember, you know, I have had to contend with. It's like, even when I was in a relationship, like, the feeling that I was putting a lot more energy into my professional life and my pursuits than into the relationship. That was a sticking point. This desire not to be seen as, like, not doing anything. I have a hard time, like, resting. Anybody who knows me knows I'm always doing something.

[B]

Yes, but look, a lot of people can say, I have a hard time resting. A lot of people can say, if I don't do anything, I feel lazy. But it doesn't have the same meaning than when a black person says it. Because there are not many other groups that I've had to confront this constant epithet. And so when you say, how do I sit still and be. How do I find legitimacy in just being and not in doing? How do I feel that I deserve a rest? I mean, the whole world was created with a day of rest. You know, how do I experience the right, the legitimacy? How do I experience that entitlement in the good sense of the word to just be in the world without this running drone ruminating constantly in my head, not allowing me to take a deep breath in and out and not have any expectation on me and any pressure on me and any rant in my head telling me get up, do this, that lazy da da firing constantly and how is not something that I'm going to say, something that's going to help you do this instantly. I don't believe that. But there will be a frame where you gradually, every time you find this pressure, you find a way to actually say, I can be. I have a right to just be. And that in itself is an act of resistance, by the way. It's not just some statement of well being.

[A]

Yeah. And I never understood and people talk about just be, choose yourself. What does that mean in this world?

[B]

It means that you feel worthy of your existence even when you're not proving that you deserve to exist. Is that it?

[A]

Yeah. That's a good friend. Yeah.

[B]

Put it in your own words. I'm lending you mine. And then you put it in yours.

[A]

The way that I think about this is I don't have to prove myself. My worthiness. My worthiness is inherent is the way that I would think about that. And it's not something to prove, but that's also like for me.

[B]

Can you believe this?

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

You just.

[A]

I can make a mental ascent to.

[B]

It on an all level, on a mental, physical, emotional, spiritual level. Can you, can you imagine that this is not just a statement? Because we can say things to convince ourselves. When we are convinced, we often don't need to say it. We live it. And I think it's developmental. I don't think that you wake up one morning and you have it. So say it again.

[A]

My worth is inherent and I don't have to prove myself to be worthy.

[B]

Say it again.

[A]

My worth is inherent and I don't have to prove myself to be worthy. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, I resonate with that and I think that applies just in every area. We talked about career. But that's just one symptom or one aspect of a relationship. So that's. You need a type of relationship, whether that's friendships or romantic relationships or family.

[B]

You feel it Everywhere, Yeah. Did you feel it now when you said it, or. Or you just said that makes sense.

[A]

Maybe I intellectualize too much. I feel. I mean, I do feel it. So you. So I'm like, on a mental, physical, emotional, spiritual level? On a mental level, yes. On a spiritual level. I do believe that, you know, from where my grounding is spiritually, you know, I believe that about everybody. You know, sometimes it's difficult for me to. Sometimes even I can see that in somebody else, but not in myself all the time. And that's also something that I'm trying to also mentally work through. Like, how do I. I can see that, you know, somebody else doesn't have to prove themselves or they have inherent value. They'd have to work harder. But for me, it's like, nope, you have to work harder. So it is for me, that statement that I made, I'm inherently worthy and I don't have to prove my worth.

[B]

Do you have close friends?

[A]

I have a lot of close friends, yeah.

[B]

Do you ever say stuff like that to each other?

[A]

Not all the time, no.

[B]

All the time. But do you?

[A]

No. Sometimes.

[B]

Because that's one way to have each other's back when you live in a shared reality is to remind each other of the things that, you know is that you see in the other, and that is challenging for yourself. You know, sometimes I say, if your best friend was talking to you, or if you were talking to your best friend, either way, what would you be saying? If they say, I can't sit still. The minute I sit still, it's as if I sink in this truth of laziness and of not enough and of. Of what? Fill in the blank.

[A]

More tangibly. More money. Not enough money, not enough time. And I think that's true. The money thing is something that. Now we do talk about that all the time. You know, it's like, I went to school, I don't have enough money. I need to sell my house. I need to, you know, sell my car. I need to do all these things. So some people don't feel like they have enough love in their lives, whether that's romantic or otherwise. But there's not enough love or there's not enough support. Those are all things that come up sometimes in conversation.

[B]

And you.

[A]

And for me, certainly not enough money. You. You can always make one more dollar. And that's that chase of capitalism, you know, that. That we deal with. I don't have enough time to do everything I want to do. I feel like I'm in a rush, like I'm. I realize I'm still young and some people might listen and say, what are you talking about? But sometimes I feel like I'm running out of time to do the next thing, whatever that thing is. I don't even know what the next thing is. If you'd asked me five years ago, would I be in the position I am now, I would have not believed you. As in, well, five years ago, I thought I would not be working an office job. You know, I thought I would have been still in TV doing that career path.

[B]

Do you like what you do now?

[A]

Sometimes. Only because it's slower than what I'm used to, but I do like it. I do like it. I think in the past, I was always attracted to things that kept me going, movement. But now, working at an office job, there's a sense of this. Sometimes boredom sits in, sets in.

[B]

Is it a step on the way to something?

[A]

That's the thing. Everything's a step on the way to something for me.

[B]

But that's okay. You know, this is. When I say developmental, that means you are in your 20s, and so we can have a piece of the conversation that is very much about you, Race, pressure, existential elements related to work. But then there is the developmental arc. You know, what I want to do, what I should do, what I should do a little bit of. So that I can get to what I want to do. The stuff I do because it has meaning for me versus the stuff I do because it is more remunerated. The stuff that fits my identity and the stuff that I think gives me the credentials for the next thing. I mean, there's all these considerations, and I see those also very much in a developmental arc. You know, there is what you choose to do, and then there is what life puts in front of you and chooses you.

[A]

That's right. Yeah. And I think I've been in that latter camp. What chooses me.

[B]

Yeah. And somehow people often struggle with that one, as if there's something wrong with the fact that I've done the stuff that kind of fell in my lap, or I've done the stuff that people have sought me out for. I don't know that I necessarily think that it's problematic. Maybe because that happened to me, too. And I mean, I came to this country and some things I could choose, but the majority of things, I kind of took what I could get for a long time, and then I took things that presented themselves to me. And did I sometimes like them? No. Sometimes I did them for convenience. Sometimes I did them for money. And sometimes I did them because they were a springboard and sometimes I thought that I would like it and then I didn't. So our conversation is on multiple tracks. A piece of it is you're out of school and now the world hits you. And now you get the reality of what working in this society and in this labor market actually looks like. And there often is a disillusionment that because you also have been steeped in a society that pumps you with the idea of doing, following your passion and choosing things, and it's your freedom and you can be what you want. And all these mega statements which are filtered through a cultural lens for you too, a narration lens, but they are. They still, you know, they're in the background of. They play the bass.

[A]

For sure.

[B]

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Masterclass have you finished all your holiday shopping, made your list and checked it twice? Well then let me ask you, have you given yourself a gift? If the answer is no, then there's an Masterclass. Masterclass is the place to find priceless insights from the world's greatest minds. With more than 200 classes in business, writing, health, and so much more. And as we head into the holiday season, I love gathering with family and friends over delicious food. And I'm particularly interested at this moment in Jose Andres and his class exploring how food connects us all beyond just the actual ingredients of the food, the experience around the food between those who have plenty and those who don't have enough. Masterclass always has great offers during the holidays, sometimes up to as much as 50% off. Head over to Masterclass for the current offer that's up to 50% [e-mail] begin masterclass.com begin support for where Should We Begin? Comes from Neiman Marcus. Our favorite holiday stories are full of fantasy, and the best gift always contains a little bit of that fantasy. So when it comes to finding an exceptional gift this season, start with Neiman Marcus. From elegant stocking stuffers to statement bags made for celebration to their legendary fantasy gifts, Neiman Marques has something extraordinary for everyone. They also have style advisors who can guide you and make finding the perfect gift at every price point effortless. So head to Neiman Marques for a truly unforgettable holiday. Support for Where Should we begin? Comes from AG1. Heading into the holidays and it can be hard to maintain a balanced diet, here's one super simple micro routine you Might want to consider adding to your day right now. AG1 Next Gen is the daily health drink that they say combines your multivitamin, pre and probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants into one simple green scoop. I've tried AG1 and I like the original taste, but I, I add my own ginger and my own lemon. There are a lot of different flavors available, but I am partial to that one. AG1 has their best offer ever. If you head to drinkag1.com Esther, you'll get the welcome kit, a morning person hat, a bottle of vitamin D3K2, an AG1 flavor sampler, and you'll get to try their new sleep supplement, AGZ for free. That's drinkag1.com Esther for $126 in free gifts for new subscribers. So where we are now in our conversation, if I asked you what's the question that you bring today and if you fine tuned it, what would it be?

[A]

I guess the simple way is like, how do I make peace with being enough or recognizing that I'm enough?

[B]

I don't have an answer for you on that one. Let me start with that. But I would like to ask you, have there been moments when you have.

[A]

It have not felt like I was enough? Oh yeah.

[B]

Great. Tell me some of them. Because if you've had the experience, you know, if I answered you this, it would be some bunch of generalities. I mean, it just, I don't have that kind of presumptive knowledge. But you may have had that experience. And so let's see what wisdom we can draw from those exceptional moments.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I would even, I mean, there are a lot of ways I can go at this. I think when I look at over the last couple years, I mentioned layoffs, you know, how challenging it is to get a job, rejection. I must not be enough for these people.

[B]

If I was truly, truly good, they would have felt someone else.

[A]

Truly black. Excellent. Black and excellent. They would have chosen me. Right. So you. I put all the work in, in school and life. I'd have a lot of experiences. So I was truly excellent. Then they would have chosen me. If I was truly, you know, in an infinite relationship, you know, they could have chosen me. They could have stayed.

[B]

Are you with someone now?

[A]

No. Oh no. We're on hiatus. I'm on hiatus.

[B]

You're on hiatus. So there is someone now, but you're on hiatus.

[A]

Or there's nobody?

[B]

There's nobody. Okay. You're on a romantic hiatus.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[A]

Yes. That's Best, that's another session. But you know, if I perform. So I think part of the, you know, when I was independent therapy, like my own therapist, we talked a little bit about like at the end of the. My relationship, you know, like still cooking and walking the dog, you know, as a way to perform enoughness. So that's how it's come up for me, you know, between jobs, you're like, if you, if I do more than that, that will make things work.

[B]

And have you had moments when you have had glimpses into that enoughness? When a certain calm sits in, when a certain self acceptance, when a wordiness being all of that.

[A]

I think that comes up most when I'm around the people I love, you know, when there is not a performance, whether that's friends or family, you know.

[B]

Tell me about your parents because you mentioned your brother, your sister. Sister or whichever parents.

[A]

Yeah, my mom primarily raised me. My dad is in the picture, but I was also raised, you know, my grandparents played a big role in that as well. My, my growth and my.

[B]

Your mother's parents?

[A]

My mother's parents, yeah.

[B]

And your father, was he in your life at all or not?

[A]

Yeah, he was, he was. I mean we didn't live together. He didn't do the primary day to day raising my mom and my grandparents for the most part.

[B]

But somebody can be in your life and have not been the one to raise you.

[A]

That's right. I would say I was raised by teachers, mentors and church people and the whole community of people.

[B]

But a parent can be very present by their absence. So how present was he?

[A]

Weekends here and there.

[B]

You're giving me the concrete.

[A]

The concrete. Oh, I see.

[B]

You know where I'm going.

[A]

Not emotionally present.

[B]

But does he have a big presence in your life, in your internal life?

[A]

Oh, for sure, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. The voice. You know, people talk about the voice you hear in your head, like your parents voice. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Now that I'm older, like now that I've come into my own belief systems that we're like polar opposites, you know, I lean more left. He's way over here. Right. Sometimes. So there's a. There's a difference there too.

[B]

So mom was the primary parent with grandparents and teachers.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Any particular teacher that became the light that.

[A]

I have so many. I call my other moms. I can even pinpoint one because there's so many who I could.

[B]

You bless. Beautiful.

[A]

And just.

[B]

You still call them?

[A]

Oh yeah. I still talk to my middle school teachers and we go out And, And.

[B]

And do you ask them the question that you ask me?

[A]

I don't. I'm not.

[B]

That would be my assignment to you. You are surrounded by people who have asked themselves the very question that you're asking and have the benefit of time, age, and experience to give you a sense of how they zigzagged through this challenge. How do I feel enough and experience a moment of deserving of worthiness without having to constantly have to prove myself as a black man? Maybe not all the teachers are black.

[A]

None of them are men.

[B]

None of them are men. So we need to find other men in your circles. Older men.

[A]

I still talk to my grandfather, who's like 86. We talk every day, so.

[B]

Great. And have you ever asked him?

[A]

I've not had that kind of. I never had that question.

[B]

You have. You know, this is an example of resilience, where you actually tap into the resources of your family and your community and you ask them, how have they mustered these existential societal challenges? How have they dealt with adversity? How have they dealt with racism? How have they dealt with being laid off? How have they dealt with job uncertainty? How have they dealt with job changes? I mean, all the things that you are experiencing. You have a beautiful community. You have a rich community of people. That's the first one you turn to and you ask them those very questions. Because I would really not be surprised to know that every single one of them has had those very same questions. How do you deal with this idea that if I was really, really excellent, I would not have been the one laid off, it would have been somebody else, maybe, or they would have kept me, which many people have. But you get it with an extra. It's not an uncommon reasoning of driven people to say, you know, I should be here. But at the same time as I say I should be here, there is a voice that says, maybe I'm not good enough to be here, otherwise I would be here. And that many of us can relate to. I can relate. Been there. But within your context, it has a whole other layer and a whole other historical weight. And that doesn't mean you go to do therapy sessions with your folks. It just says, I have some questions. I'm just really curious. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's dealing with this. And you're 80 something. You must have had this over and over in your life. What can you share with me or even with your friends, more than one, for that matter. When you just say, guys, I met this woman with an accent. She told me she gave me a strange assignment, and she said, you know, she had a question for all of you, and she made me ask it because it's a relief sometimes when this stuff finally enters into the. The public square.

[A]

Yeah. And that's what's helped me, I think, understanding that, like, grief, all these heavy. Even joy and grief, all these heavy emotions are the way that we experience. Like, what's helped me is realizing, like, I'm not alone in any of it. And so the more I share, the more sort of normalizes it.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

I've been able to, like, move forward. So when you talk about the challenging breakup and lay off in the same week to talk about the grief surrounding that and all my friends and family was like, I've dealt with the same thing. I've seen it. I've been through divorce, and people will reveal things that I'm like, I did not have any idea.

[B]

Yes, Yes.

[A]

I had no idea.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You've been married before.

[B]

Right? Right. All the skeletons come out, right? No, no, you're absolutely right. But it doesn't have to be just when you're in the midst of an acute crisis. It's easier to do it when you're in the mid. Because it kind of blurts out of you. But I think actually when you calm mer, when there's not an imminent situation, to then just say, how do you deal with this? What's helped you? What's worked for you? Who do you reach out to? And sometimes people don't have pity answers. You know, this is how you do it. But there is something in the solidarity that is huge. Feeling, abnormal feeling I'm not alone feeling. People learn to live with it, and they turn certain things around and they surround themselves. I mean, the most important thing is they surround themselves so that they can't personalize it and make it about themselves. Only sometimes I think these kinds of complex problems are actually not problems that we solve, but paradoxes that we manage.

[A]

It's like living in that ambiguity or living in that gray space or that liminality.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think that's the discomfort for me sitting. Like, how do you sit in that paradox?

[B]

This is a lifetime learning. Because at first you're really angry every time you are laid off or every time you thought you wanted something and then it turned out not to be the thing you wanted. And then gradually you develop clarity, kindness, compassion, solidarity, ability to live with the complexity, the imperfections, the contradictions. And slowly what you hope to not get into is a defeat. I'LL never be able to prove it. So I may just as well stop trying to versus I don't really need to prove it and I'll continue to try because it's what I like and it's who I am, but not to the degree of an imagined world outside that needs to accept me, validate me. I'll turn to people who do validate me, black or white or any other color for that matter. The validation can come from everywhere. How does that sound to you?

[A]

Sounds great. And it resonates with me on every level outside of career, just touches every part of my life. So the recognition that I can continue life, you know, without validation, external validation being the driving force or being the thing that is the linchpin behind why I show up or how I show up.

[B]

Yes. Certainly less of it. I don't think it's an all or nothing, but it becomes less what you call it. The linchpin.

[A]

Well, thank you so much.

[B]

Me too. Thank you very, very. This was an Esther calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparel.com where should we Begin With Esther Perel Is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julia Nat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jessie Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Neiman Marcus. Our favorite holiday stories are full of fantasy and the best gift always contains a little bit of that fantasy. So when it comes to finding an exceptional gift this season, start with Neiman Marquez. From elegant stocking stuffers to statement bags made for celebration to their legendary fantasy gifts, Neiman Marcus has something extraordinary for everyone. They also have style advisors who can guide you and make finding the perfect gift at every price point effortless. So head to Neiman Marcus for a truly unforgettable holiday.

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