Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Episode: Two Conversations Esther Wants You To Hear From Sessions Live
Release Date: July 21, 2025

Introduction by Esther Perel

In the episode titled "Two Conversations Esther Wants You To Hear From Sessions Live," renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel delves into the intricate dynamics of collaboration with friends and colleagues. Esther emphasizes the unique blend of personal and professional relationships, likening it to "playing different kinds of music together at the same time" (00:00). She introduces Dr. Paul Brody, a South African psychiatrist based in New York City, highlighting their joint work in conducting relationship retreats for couples and individuals. Esther hints at Paul’s gripping story and invites listeners to engage deeply with his narrative.

Dr. Paul Brody's Story and Insights

Paul Brody takes the stage to share his profound personal journey intertwined with his professional experiences. His narrative spans from his early life in apartheid-era South Africa to his battles with HIV/AIDS and the quest for healing through pleasure and connection.

1. Early Life and Diagnosis

   Paul recounts his childhood in South Africa, where his mother predicted his future homosexuality—a revelation his father dismissed (02:32). Growing up in an environment filled with discussions on politics, religion, and medicine, but devoid of conversations about sex, Paul grapples with his identity in a society that criminalizes deviations from the heterosexual norm. At 25, after completing medical school, Paul discovers he is HIV positive, a diagnosis that was then a death sentence in South Africa.

   "The doctor, in giving me that diagnosis, had given me a death sentence. And I was plunged into the fear of dying and a fight for survival." (05:15)

2. Transition to Psychiatry and Healing

   Faced with his mortality, Paul abandons his medical career to pursue drama, seeking aliveness and expression. Eventually, he returns to psychiatry, working in an AIDS unit where he confronts the stigma and fear surrounding the disease. His personal experience with HIV shapes his therapeutic approach, focusing on aliveness, connection, and the healing power of pleasure.

   "Healing doesn't come from trying to survive. It comes from being in connection." (15:45)

3. The Body Electric Workshop

   Paul describes attending the Body Electric School founded by sexologist Joseph Kramer. The workshop, "Celebrating the Body Erotic," emphasizes erotic aliveness as a gateway to pleasure, connection, and spiritual transcendence. Through structured exercises and communal rituals, participants explore vulnerability, trust, and emotional release.

   "Everybody, no matter how stigmatized, is capable of pleasure. We are wired for it." (19:30)

4. Practical Tools for Healing

   Paul introduces the Three Minute Game, a practical tool designed to foster authentic intimacy. The game involves partners asking each other what they would like to receive and give for three minutes, promoting consent, desire clarification, and vulnerability.

   "The content is not the point. It's the asking that matters." (21:10)

5. Lessons from the AIDS Epidemic

   Reflecting on the AIDS crisis, Paul draws parallels to contemporary crises, emphasizing the destructive power of stigma, the importance of community, truth-telling, and embodiment in healing.

   "The AIDS epidemic taught us that stigma kills, not just metaphorically, but literally." (21:50)

6. Final Reflections

   Paul concludes with actionable suggestions:

   • Breathe into your body and follow the aliveness.
   • Seek pleasure as medicine.
   • Lead your life with pleasure.

   He underscores the necessity of sharing one's story for personal and collective healing.

   "Pleasure is not a luxury, it is our birthright and it is medicine." (22:30)

Nedra Tawwab's Talk on Boundaries

After Paul’s insightful presentation, Esther introduces Nedra Tawwab, a psychotherapist and author renowned for her work on boundaries.

1. Personal Experience with Boundaries

   Nedra shares a personal anecdote from 2020, where setting a hard boundary with a family member led to a temporary estrangement. This experience reinforced her belief that boundaries are essential for healthy connections and not simply mechanisms for ending relationships.

   "Healthy boundaries are a way for us to connect. They are not about ending the relationship." (28:30)

2. Defining Healthy Boundaries

   Nedra challenges the misconception that boundaries are walls that necessitate separation. Instead, she posits that boundaries facilitate appropriate connections, allowing relationships to thrive despite imperfections.

   "Boundaries do not have to mean endings. They are a continuation in a relationship." (31:05)

3. Flexibility in Boundary Setting

   Emphasizing the importance of flexibility, Nedra discusses tailoring boundaries to fit different relationships and situations. She advises against using a one-size-fits-all approach, advocating for customized boundaries that honor the unique dynamics of each relationship.

   "Customizing your boundaries to fit the person, the situation is really important." (35:20)

4. Critique of Social Media Terminology

   Nedra critiques the overuse and misuse of terms like "toxic" and "narcissist" on social media. She argues that such labels oversimplify complex human behaviors and can hinder genuine connection by reducing individuals to negative stereotypes.

   "These terms... are a way that we disconnect from people because we're no longer seeing the person. We're only seeing the label." (42:30)

5. Encouraging Connection Over Perfection

   Advocating for connection, Nedra encourages listeners to seek balance in relationships, recognizing that perfection is unattainable and that healthy relationships often reside in the nuanced middle ground between extremes.

   "There is a lot of room in the middle. Don't let Instagram dictate what your relationships look like." (40:50)

6. Practical Strategies for Healthy Relationships

   Nedra offers strategies for maintaining healthy boundaries without compromising connection:

   • Identify and communicate personal needs.
   • Differentiate between discomfort and true boundaries.
   • Be flexible and adaptive in various relationships.

   "Sometimes we have to find it. Relationships can evolve and stretch and still be good, right?" (38:15)

Conclusion

This episode of Where Should We Begin? presents profound insights into personal and relational healing through the powerful narratives of Dr. Paul Brody and Nedra Tawwab. Paul’s journey through stigma and his embrace of pleasure as a healing force complements Nedra’s expertise on setting healthy boundaries to foster authentic connections. Together, their conversations offer listeners actionable tools and deep reflections on navigating the complexities of human relationships.

Notable Quotes

• Esther Perel:
  "It's like playing different kinds of music together at the same time." (00:00)

• Paul Brody:
  "Healing doesn't come from trying to survive. It comes from being in connection." (15:45)
  "The AIDS epidemic taught us that stigma kills, not just metaphorically, but literally." (21:50)
  "Pleasure is not a luxury, it is our birthright and it is medicine." (22:30)

• Nedra Tawwab:
  "Healthy boundaries are a way for us to connect. They are not about ending the relationship." (28:30)
  "Customizing your boundaries to fit the person, the situation is really important." (35:20)
  "These terms... are a way that we disconnect from people because we're no longer seeing the person. We're only seeing the label." (42:30)
  "There is a lot of room in the middle. Don't let Instagram dictate what your relationships look like." (40:50)

Note: This summary excludes advertisement segments, introductory remarks, and non-content sections to focus solely on the meaningful discussions between Esther Perel, Paul Brody, and Nedra Tawwab.