What if Dating Isn't For Me?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What if Dating Isn't For Me?"

Podcast: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Host: Esther Perel
Episode Air Date: February 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this raw and deeply introspective episode, Esther Perel counsels a 26-year-old woman wrestling with the question: Does she truly want—or is she even suited for—romantic relationships? The caller, a self-described introvert and perfectionist, explores the internal tug-of-war between her flourishing independence when single and her anxiety and self-abandonment when partnered. Through gentle questioning, Esther helps the caller reveal patterns rooted in family dynamics and perfectionism, guiding her toward radical self-acceptance and a new way of being in love and intimacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Caller’s Dilemma: “Am I Meant For Romance?”

• Feeling Happier Single: The caller feels more authentic, fulfilled, and unburdened when single; relationships leave her feeling “absorbed” by her partner and “less herself” ([03:17]).
• Fear of Solitude: She worries about ending up alone in old age if she rejects the traditional path ([00:46]).
• Desire vs. Doubt: She’s currently dating someone and feels her old patterns resurfacing.

2. The Switch that Flips: Changes In Selfhood

• Single vs. Partnered Self:

  • When single, she feels free, grounded, and independent.

  • When dating, she feels compelled to mold herself to meet perceived expectations ([03:30]):

    “I just get sort of sucked in to that person. I feel like everything becomes about keeping the relationship going at all costs.” – Caller ([03:30])

• Self-Abandonment: The caller describes how love leads to “neediness” and an erasure of self ([04:33]), and she feels “liberation” only when the relationship ends.

3. Esther’s Reflection: The Anatomy of Anxious Attachment

• Losing Self to Avoid Losing Other:
  • Esther observes:

    “When I enter a relationship, I lose the connection to myself. In order not to lose the other, I lose me... It actually is a vulnerability that I bring with me to relationships.” – Esther Perel ([04:33])

• Anxiety’s Dual Faces: Whether single (“holding on to myself at the exclusion of others”) or partnered (“holding on to the other at the exclusion of myself”), both stem from the same source ([05:31]).
• Early Future Fantasies: The caller reveals a tendency to create “whole futures” with every partner, making breakups feel like losing a life vision ([07:06]).

4. The Role of Perfectionism & Family History

• Rooted In Childhood:
  • The caller’s dad was a stay-at-home, highly critical parent with “high standards.” As a child, she internalized his criticisms, retreating to her room to make exhaustive self-improvement lists ([18:41]).
  • Esther reframes this:

    “I would make a list that was even more exhaustive than his... And inside there were two dominant feelings. The inadequacy on my side, but also... rage and anger toward the man with whom I needed to get into this elaborate ladder of self criticism.” – Esther Perel ([20:29])

• Channeling Anger Inwards: The caller admits she did not express anger at her father but turned the anger toward herself as self-criticism.
• Perfectionism as Control: She tries to guarantee stability in relationships by controlling herself, striving for perfection to prevent abandonment ([13:11]).
• Cycle of Self-Judgment and “Earning” Love: Successes feel more dramatic, as if overcoming “failure,” creating a high-stakes emotional rollercoaster ([33:04]).

5. Self-Criticism, Achievement, and Motivation

• From Punishment to Motivation: Self-criticism was her drive for excellence, especially as a professional musician. Less self-criticism now feels “less motivating,” with less dramatic highs and lows ([28:29]).
• Pleasure vs. Pressure: The question remains—can she find satisfaction and achievement without the internal whip of perfectionism?

  “If it doesn't make me crazy, if I don't experience the complete passion and fear of annihilation, then I'm a nothing.” – Esther Perel ([35:23])

6. Practical Guidance: New Paths To Connection

• Embodied Reconnection: Esther introduces grounding techniques to manage anxiety—literally grounding her body, taking time, using breath, or requesting touch to soothe and re-anchor herself ([44:50]).
  • “You can just literally put your feet on the ground... use your body, use your breath to hold your interiority.” – Esther Perel ([44:50])
• Honest Communication: She encourages openness with her new partner, suggesting even sharing this podcast as an intimate act of truth-telling ([42:48]).
  • “When you hear a person speak authentically, truthfully like that about themselves, and you feel a real tenderness toward them... It’s like a piece of music that uncovers itself...” – Esther Perel ([43:15])
• Naming Needs in Intimacy: The caller describes anxiety around sexual performance. Esther normalizes her experience and encourages slow, honest communication and small acts of assertion ([49:22]):

  “Say, ‘I think I met the person with whom I want to learn to become more truthful... Are you willing to be patient with me?’ That is a level of self assertion that is very different.” – Esther Perel ([51:45])

7. Permission To Blossom

• Learning to Assert Needs: Esther urges her to redirect the “fierceness” of self-critique toward advocating for her desires in love.

  “Put your fierceness that you've put into your self-criticism into expressing your wish... now apply it to your aspirations.” – Esther Perel ([51:45])

• A Poignant Quote: Esther closes with Anaïs Nin:

  “The day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.” – Esther Perel quoting Anaïs Nin ([54:00])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Caller on Single vs. Partnered Self:

  “I just get sucked into that person... [in relationships] everything becomes about keeping the relationship going at all costs.” ([03:30])

• Esther on Relationship Patterns:

  “In one, I hold onto the person at the exclusion of me... In the other, I hold onto me at the exclusion of anybody else entering my orbit.” ([05:31])

• On Internalized Criticism:

  “I would go to my room and outdo my dad. I would make a list that was even more exhaustive than his... ‘I'll come back perfect’... So you can't pick at anything.” – Esther Perel ([20:29])

• On Motivation Without Self-Critique:

  “I became so used to identifying that harshness with motivation and drive.” – Esther Perel ([31:37])

• Esther’s Closing Wish:

  “Here’s to your blossoming.” ([54:22])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:01–01:49: The caller introduces her dilemma—questioning if relationships are right for her.
• 03:17–04:29: Description of “the switch” between confident singleness and anxious partnership.
• 06:29–08:14: Anxious attachment explored, future-fantasizing and fear of losing self.
• 18:32–22:45: Childhood roots: dad’s criticism, self-improvement lists, internalized voices.
• 28:29–31:37: The tension between motivation by self-critique vs. healthy motivation, especially re: violin.
• 35:23–41:37: Shifting from intensity and relief to calm satisfaction—can life be “flavorful” without drama?
• 44:50–46:24: Grounding exercises, using body and breath to regulate emotions in relationship moments.
• 47:04–49:58: Navigating sexual intimacy while anxious, fear of taking up space.
• 51:45–54:22: Advocating for her needs; Anaïs Nin quote; “the risk it took to blossom.”

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Takeaway

This episode offers a nuanced look at how perfectionism and childhood dynamics play out in adult relationships. Esther Perel champions the caller’s move toward gentle self-acceptance, advocating for openness, bodily grounding, and courageous self-assertion as the way forward—not only for healthy romance, but for living a fuller, more genuine life.

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Transcript

[Esther]

Hi esther.

[Caller]

I'm a 26 year old woman and the question that I'm trying to figure out is whether or not being in a relationship is right for me. So I grew up kind of expecting that I was gonna find the perfect man someday and get married and have kids and that then my life would be perfect and I would be happy and that's all I would ever need. And I've been with men that I love, but I don't think I've been in a relationship that made me feel happier or more fulfilled than I do when I'm single. I felt like my partners were always trying to get me to do things that I didn't want to do or to live my life in ways that I didn't want to. And I think partly that's because I'm pretty introverted and I'm also kind of a perfectionist. And neither of those things is bad. Like I don't dislike those things about myself, but I think they make it very easy for me to feel like I'm being pushed and pulled in a direction direction that I don't want to go. So I've been kind of questioning whether even being in a relationship at all is really the right thing for me. And the problem is that I'm just worried that I'm going to end up alone in my old age. You know, right now I have my parents close by and I'm very open to the idea of having a child by myself. But once I get older and my parents are gone and my kid moves away, maybe like I don't want to be alone with no family.

[Narrator]

My.

[Caller]

But I also just feel so much more myself when I'm single. So I'm trying to figure out should I keep looking for a partner or should I just decide that I'm okay by myself? So I'm hoping that maybe you can.

[Esther]

Help me with some of this.

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[Esther]

So when I sent it in, I was not seeing anyone. And then about a week later, actually I met someone. So I've been seeing him for a couple months now. So I'm just in a little bit of a different place than I was at that point.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so we can go to where you were and we can go to where you are. Where would you like to begin? Where should we begin?

[Esther]

I don't know. I think maybe. Maybe both, I guess. I feel sometimes like a switch flips a little bit when I'm single versus when I'm in a relationship.

[Esther Perel]

And give me the switch and give me the flip.

[Esther]

Like when I'm just me, I can be who I want to be and I get to decide how things are. And when I'm seeing someone, I feel like, you know, unintentionally, not like I'm trying to do this, but I just get sort of sucked in to that person. And I feel like everything becomes about keeping the relationship going at all costs. And I feel needy in a way that I don't feel when I'm by myself. And, you know, I've been trying to be more aware of that this time and course correct a little bit, but I still just feel like, you know, when I'm around this person that I'm seeing, I'm just totally absorbed by that. And I don't really feel like I'm in myself. And then as soon as I leave, I kind of like have this moment of waking up again. I don't know if that makes a lot of sense, but.

[Esther Perel]

Shall I tell you what I'm hearing?

[Esther]

Sure.

[Esther Perel]

When I am by myself, I don't experience the challenge of staying connected with myself while also connecting with someone else. When I enter a relationship, I lose the connection to myself. In fact, in order not to lose the other, I lose me. And I don't know how to experience closeness that doesn't do away with me. Knowing that this doesn't come from the other person, nor does it come from what the relationship is doing to me. It actually is a vulnerability that I bring with me to relationships. Yeah, I added the last piece.

[Esther]

I know you didn't. I mean, you're right, though. Yes, that's true.

[Esther Perel]

So tell me about it. What do you know about this part of you that starts to feel anxious, starts to want to hold on rather than hold, starts to be afraid that you're going to lose the relation or the other person, and so you make a zillion Compromises with yourself that nobody asked for. And then, of course, you start to feel a kind of liberation when you're alone, which isn't really a liberation. It's primarily a liberation from this yoke and from this anxiety. Yeah, there's nothing really free about it because it basically is the other side. It's the flip side of the same anxiety. In one, I hold on to the person at the exclusion of me, and in the other, I hold on to me at the exclusion of anybody else entering my orbit.

[Esther]

Yeah, I didn't think about it that way, but.

[Esther Perel]

But I saw a smile as I was articulating the sentence.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So what do you know about it? Because this has happened a few times. You're young, you're 26. You're worried about being alone at 26. To think about I'm going to be an old lady by myself when my parents are gone is an interesting worry to have, but it's because you are aware of something, you know, that you carry something with you.

[Esther]

I think. I mean, that part of it. Like, I've always been prone to thinking way ahead, like, too much. You know, I think every time that I enter into a relationship, I'm immediately thinking about, you know, is this the right person for me to marry and would he be a good dad? And, you know, I just, like, build up a whole future right away. And I think part of it is that because I. I do that, then if I lose the person, it's like I'm losing my future. Like, I'm losing the idea of what it is gonna look like. And it's scary. It's like I have to figure out my whole life all over again. I don't know. I guess the feeling anxious about you, like, holding on tightly to the other person. I think there's part of me that just doesn't feel confident that I'm, like, good enough. I worry a lot that I'm gonna do something wrong or that, you know, I just really have to try to be adequate.

[Esther Perel]

I'm not sure I followed you. I'm. I'm not sure that I'm good enough.

[Esther]

For what to stay with.

[Esther Perel]

That they will want to stay with me. And therefore I turn myself into a pretzel. And I try to imagine what they want me to be, which they may or may not even have asked for. Because, in fact, maybe they were drawn to the me that is not trying to twist herself into.

[Esther]

Yes. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So you've had other relationships, right? How long have they lasted?

[Esther]

A couple of them. Just a Few months. And then I was with someone for about two years.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so give me a little bit of the story. You are falling in love with me or you're drawn to me. But wait till you get to know me. And you want to stay one extra hour.

[Esther]

Yeah, I think at the beginning, like before I have feelings for the person, really when I'm still just getting to know him, I have an easier time kind of staying myself and having boundaries in a healthy way. And then it's like as soon as I start to feel attached or like I'm starting to fall in love a little bit, I just kind of switch into this, like do everything that I have to, to, to convince him to stay.

[Esther Perel]

And have you ever wondered about that?

[Esther]

Yeah, it's just like. It's like I'm aware of it. I'm very aware of it. But it's like I can't. I can't stop myself sometimes, you know?

[Esther Perel]

All right. And how have you made sense of it for yourself? When I have no feelings for you? I'm very comfortable being in my own skin, in my own body, in my own self reflection. And I appreciate that you may be interested in me and I think there's a lot to be interested in.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

But the minute I start to love you or have feelings for you, they come with an intense sense of needing you. And the love and the needs start to get confused. And the minute I start to need you, I start to think that you're not going to want me. I never think, do you need me? It's all self referential.

[Esther]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

So I start to think you're not going to want me because my neediness is going to push you away. Now clarify that for me. There's something about hearing it repeated back, right?

[Esther]

Yeah. No, I mean that's all very accurate, I think. I. I don't know. What would you like me to clarify? What else are you looking for? I feel like you just said it perfectly.

[Esther Perel]

I am just identifying the sequence. I don't know what propels the sequence.

[Esther]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

And I don't know if you do. So we are going to excavate this together. Right. Somehow the minute I develop feelings for you, it comes with the fear that you're not going to want to be with me. Now these two are so connected that you don't even ask yourself how come? It's as if it makes sense. It doesn't. By definition, it's not a logical thing that because I have feelings for you, I instantly start to fear rejection, fear abandonment.

[Esther]

Well, but I mean, like, when you care about something that comes with a fear of losing it, right?

[Esther Perel]

Yes, yes, but that is a philosophical term, not something that instantly makes you twist yourself, disconnect from yourself, disassociate from your own needs, feelings, wishes, experience, and mold yourself into something that you imagine you should be. That's very different from something that I very much believe indeed, that of course, when you care about something, you also experience the fear of losing that thing. But that's not what. That doesn't mean that you therefore start to do a job on yourself, a remake. It just means that you live with a set of complex, interconnected feelings.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Meaning that the reality of the feelings doesn't explain the extreme of the behavior.

[Esther]

I think sometimes I've felt like I start to fall in love with someone and I just. I want it to continue and I want to keep it. And I sort of decide that, like, the only way that I can guarantee that it won't fall apart is by making everything about me perfect, because I can't control what the other person does or feels. Right. Like, the only thing I can control is myself. And so I. I think I just try to sort of, like, do everything I can on my end, hoping that that will make up for anything that's not, you know, perfect on his end or something like that.

[Esther Perel]

Does it work, by the way?

[Esther]

No. Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Just wanted to.

[Esther]

Definitely not.

[Esther Perel]

Because the more you do that and the more anxious you become that the first mishap will lead to the ultimate cataclysm. So you put yourself in a terrible strain. Yeah, because you say I can't control, but in fact, you are constantly watching what you think is the control of the other over you.

[Esther]

Yeah, I know it ends up feeling like he's controlling me, but I don't think it's always right. Really? That right? Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

[Esther]

Foreign.

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

Did you have any of these feelings at home.

[Esther]

Like with my family?

[Esther Perel]

Yep. I mean I am a psychologist. I'm gonna ask. I'm a psychotherapist. I ask therapeutic questions. Yes, therapy.

[Esther]

Like yeah, I think when I was a kid my so my dad was the stay at home parent and he, you know, he spent a lot of time with us with me and my brother and he did so much as a parent and he was also at the same time pretty, pretty critical and he had very high standards. And I felt like when he would be upset about something that I had done or, you know, tell me to do something different or disapproving in whatever way, the, you know, the way that it felt to me, like, I don't know if it felt to me like he was saying, you're just not good enough, you're not worthy, you're not smart enough, you're not hard working enough. Like, that's how it landed on me. And I don't think that he was intending for it to feel that way. But when I was little, like, you know, seven or eight or something like that, the way that I would deal with it a lot of times was he would say something to me that would make me feel like I was a terrible person. And I would like, go in my room and cry a little bit. And then like, the way I would kind of pull myself out of it was by. Sounds so silly, but I would just like, make a list of all the things that were wrong with me and decide that, like, the next day I was gonna fix all these things. And it just felt like a way to kind of be proactive and like, do something about it, you know, and try to avoid feeling like that again.

[Esther Perel]

So I would go to my room and I would outdo my dad. I would make a list that was even more exhaustive than his. I would pick myself apart and I would make promises to myself that I would fix every imperfection, everything that could be improved upon.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And inside there were two dominant feelings. The inadequacy on my side, but also on some level, the rage and the anger toward the man with whom I needed to get into this elaborate ladder of self criticism.

[Esther]

I've never really felt angry towards him like me. I mean, maybe it's deep down in there, but I've never really experienced any of that as anger.

[Esther Perel]

I know, I know. You have to experience plenty of anger, but towards yourself.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Maybe if I start to make a long list of all the things I'm gonna change, I'm not being super kind with myself.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, this little girl at 7 or 8, what does she sit. How did she speak to herself?

[Esther]

Do you remember? Not. Not nice. Yeah. I mean, when I was really upset, I would just say all kinds of terrible things and just. I mean, even things that I didn't even really think were true. I would just say mean things to myself.

[Esther Perel]

Such as, you know, like, you're in your room. I mean, that little girl is alive and well.

[Esther]

Like. I mean, like everything from you know, stupid and lazy and mean and like, I would call myself fat even though I wasn't and I knew I wasn't. And that wasn't even a. An issue in what my parents thought or what I thought of myself. You know, just like throw everything mean that I could think of at myself.

[Esther Perel]

So I was angry with me.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And when I think I'm better off alone, it's that voice. I'm angry with you for what you make me feel about me. I want nothing to do with you.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Men, partners, lifelong companions, etc.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's not an anger that calls them by names, but it's an anger that says, I'd rather be alone.

[Esther]

Yeah. It feels easier, you know, but there's.

[Esther Perel]

A fuck you in there. Probably it's a good fuck you, but you need to be able to say it without having to deprive yourself, without having to isolate yourself as a way to disempower them so they have not such influence and control over you. You will isolate yourself from them, but it doesn't solve anything. It's just the other side of, I'm angry with me and I put myself down, or I'm angry with you and I take away any opportunity you would have to boss me around.

[Esther]

I turned that into like, in my head, I turned it into, if I decide to stay single and be a single mom by choice, then I'm making a statement about how strong women can be. Right. I'm like, you know? But yeah. I think what you're saying makes more sense than that.

[Esther Perel]

We are not strong because we don't need anybody.

[Esther]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

That is one of the weirdest thoughts.

[Esther]

Yeah. And I know it's true. I. I do. And I believe that it's just about like feeling it instead of just believing it in my mind.

[Esther Perel]

So if we go back to that little girl in her room.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Who is basically hitting herself with words, with put downs harder than her dad did.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So that in some weird way, if I do it to myself, you're not doing it to me. And then I'm going to promise myself redemption tomorrow morning. I'll come back transformed. Perfect. I'll come back perfect. So you can't pick at anything. And of course that wasn't possible. So then what would happen? What happened with that critical, self demeaning, harsh voice inside of you over the years? Where did it go?

[Esther]

I don't really speak to myself that way anymore. One of the things that bugs me is that I'm a pretty confident person in most of My life, in my work and with my friends and even with my family. Like, my relationship with my dad is much easier now. And I don't feel like this is really an issue that I have that much except in the context of romantic relationships. And it's like I just regress and become a different person than I am in the rest of my life. And I don't really like who I am in that context, you know?

[Esther Perel]

Do you remember a time when you noticed that instead of criticizing yourself and picking, you actually thought, oh, I'm alright, I'm okay. I did well.

[Esther]

I mean, I definitely became aware that I was speaking to myself in an unkind way. And I worked on not doing that anymore, you know.

[Esther Perel]

How did you do it?

[Esther]

I guess I had to sort of just let go of being the best at everything. I think for a long time that voice, you know, my dad's voice or my voice or whatever it was, was kind of my main source of motivation to do things like to be high achieving and really everything that I was doing in my life. And at a certain point I just kind of stopped worrying as much about being perfect. But now I feel like I don't know where to get motivation as well. I feel like it was all from this judgment and this criticism. And that's another thing just kind of apart from relationships that I've been thinking about a lot lately is like, how.

[Esther Perel]

Do I get myself to want to do something.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Or want to do more or better if it doesn't come from a place where I kick myself.

[Esther]

Yeah, exactly.

[Esther Perel]

Have you tried?

[Esther]

Yeah, I mean, I think like there's a lot of things that I want to do that take dedication and hard work.

[Esther Perel]

For example.

[Esther]

Well, like I'm so. I'm a violinist and I went through kind of a stage of not, you know, I used to practice a ton, like kind of obsessively and. And that was definitely driven by a lot of this self criticism. And then I kind of stopped doing that for a while because I was just burned out and I was tired of like evaluating myself based on how well I played the violin. And now I really, I would like to be practicing more consistently than I do, but I don't know, it's just hard to find the, the internal motivation now. Now that I don't have that voice saying like, you're gonna mess up this audition or you're not gonna know your music for this gig or whatever. Like, I can't really find a place of just enjoyment and wanting to do it for myself.

[Esther Perel]

And do you fail the audition?

[Esther]

No, but I'm not usually as perfectly prepared as I would like to be in an ideal world.

[Esther Perel]

But did you miss the audition?

[Esther]

No.

[Esther Perel]

No. So you still get to perform? You play solo? You play parts of orchestras? In an orchestra, big orchestras or chambers?

[Esther]

Yeah, yeah. In a symphony.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so do I hear you correct? I am less tense, I don't kick my fingers with my bow, and yet I'm not doing any less well. I just feel that the tight jaw and the harshness isn't present. And I became so used to identifying that harshness with motivation and drive. And when I don't have that negative energy inside of me, it almost feels like there is no energy or no drive at all. Yeah, but when I look at the actual outcome, it's not necessarily true.

[Esther]

Yeah, that's fair. How does. Yeah, yeah, how does that. How do I transfer that into a relationship with a person, into my love life?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, let's stay with this because it's good to go and look in a different part of life and then see what we can apply. I mean, watch this, right? For years saying to myself, you're stupid, you're nil. Nothing's going to come out of you, what the hell is wrong? Push yourself, try harder, et cetera. Fundamentally, it convinced you that your strength, your drive, your persistence, your six hours of practice a day came from that. Nothing to do with the love of the violin.

[Esther]

A little bit there was some of that.

[Esther Perel]

The poor violin is part of the story after all. But something inside of you convinced yourself equated harshness with drive or motivation, and harshness with motivation, then with success. But when you look at what has changed, you realize that by being slightly less self critical and less harsh, less abusive towards yourself, honestly, you still have the drive on occasion, maybe not as intensely. I'm not sure if that means you're less prepared. I think you may have been as less prepared back then because you put as much energy into the fretting around it. But in any case, it doesn't change the outcome, it doesn't make you fail the auditions or not play in a certain orchestra, etc. Etc. So that's a very interesting thing to ponder for a moment.

[Esther]

I don't know, there's just something about it that feels less satisfying. Like I haven't done it well enough to succeed by other people's standards, but like it's just not enough for. For me.

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[Esther Perel]

Because. But tell me, is it because when you live with a system that says all the time you're going to fail.

[Esther]

You'Re going to fail, you're going to fail, you're going to fail.

[Esther Perel]

Then when you actually get the gig, you think, I crossed the Rubicon, I'm safe. I succeeded. I went against everything I thought about myself. Of course it feels great. Whereas here, there's no big fear of failure that stands there warning you. So when you succeed, it's nice. It's a small orgasm, it's not a big orgasm.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So it feels less intense, it feels less dramatic, it feels less epic.

[Esther]

Yeah, yeah. I had not thought about that before.

[Esther Perel]

And now that you do.

[Esther]

Yeah. I mean, I did always feel like it kind of like when I did succeed, it was kind of against all odds and it was very euphoric.

[Esther Perel]

So you went from utter fear to relief to euphoria. Now you don't have the utter fear. So there is less of the sense of relief and there is not necessarily that sense of euphoria. But the question is, is there a sense of calm, satisfaction, confidence, acquisition of experience, maturation? Those pieces.

[Esther]

Somewhat.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I think it's not as intense. It's not nearly as dramatic. Yeah. You don't have the same dopamine rush. You don't have the same I'm alive, right. I deserve to be a musician.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I'm not a fraud. I mean. Yeah. But on the other side of that is. Yes. It's calmer, it's more confident. It's more confident.

[Esther]

Yeah. It makes me feel like I don't care as much.

[Esther Perel]

I know, I know.

[Esther]

I don't like feeling like I don't.

[Esther Perel]

Care, you know, if it doesn't make me crazy, if I don't experience the complete passion and fear of annihilation, then I'm a nothing. I'm a nobody. If I don't feel like it's between life and death, then I don't experience enough intensity. It's bland. It's like I've been so used to eating super spicy food and when it's not burning my palate, I don't really feel the taste. But you have the equivalent of that a little bit. It would really be like a saving. I can do it.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I'm on the other side.

[Sponsor Announcer]

I can be here.

[Esther Perel]

I deserve to be here. I'm not a failure after all. I mean, it's all life and death, on or off, success or failure, fraud or not.

[Esther]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And on the other side, yes. It feels. It's more gentle, you know, but it feels a little bit like, where's the flavor? Where's the excitement? Where's the release? Where's the relief? Where's the I look at myself in the mirror and I like, ah, you did it. You know, like I defeated the odds, right? I beat the obstacle, the internal obstacle.

[Esther]

Of course.

[Esther Perel]

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

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[Esther Perel]

Maybe not the best idea, but what can you do?

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[Esther]

Do you think it will start to feel like there's more flavor as I get used to it?

[Esther Perel]

I knew you would ask me that. I think the first thing is how you interpret it. If you interpret it as I'm less driven, then you may be distorting it. If it's not, every concert is a proof that I deserve to be a musician. Then it becomes I'm enjoying it more rather than I saved my skin, you know, I saved myself from disgrace.

[Esther]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So the experience on the other side is when it's simply I enjoy doing what I love on a daily basis. It's no longer a test every time I play. A test not that I played well, a test that I even deserved to be a musician in the first place. And who the hell do you think you are, Miss? Yeah, that voice, that contemptuous voice. So if you ask me what's on the other side, it's the. The joy of doing what you like without having to constantly fear that every time you play or every concert you're doing is a test to your identity, to your self worth, to your raison d', etre, to all of that. But just. And it is lower. Some concerts will still bring because the stakes are always higher. And there's a different hall and a different conductor and a different piece to master. So it's not like there are no challenges, but they're not challenges to your core. And it's hopefully more pleasant, more serene, but joyful.

[Esther]

Sounds good.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, we like. So now you're asking me, and how does that translate? Yeah. Tell me the relationship you just started. Tell me about you and him.

[Esther]

I mean, it's so early, you know, like, we've only known each other for a little while, but he's very nice, a little bit older, not too much like five years. And it's feeling good so far, but there have just been moments where I feel like I just get really anxious about whether I'm doing things right and if, you know, he's gonna continue to want to see me, and I just want to be able to relax, you know?

[Esther Perel]

Does any of this come up.

[Esther]

A little bit? Yeah, I wouldn't say that. I've kind of said all of this to him.

[Esther Perel]

But you're gonna play the podcast?

[Esther]

Maybe. Do you think so?

[Esther Perel]

I was just talking about it.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Hey, there's a lot of things about me you don't know, things that I have imagined one day I would tell you. And I thought one way to share some of this with you is for us to listen to this together or just for you to listen to this and then we can discuss.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Or you can just surprise him one day when you drive in the car and put this up.

[Esther]

Surprise.

[Esther Perel]

And say, I want to play a piece for you. And then just watch the response. I think, you know, there's a way in which when you hear a person speak authentically, truthfully, like that about themselves, and you feel a real tenderness toward them, you don't feel, actually, I don't want this person. You actually. It's like. It's like a piece of music that uncovers itself, and you start to hear the undertones and the other layers in the piece.

[Esther]

Yeah. I think that's kind of, you know, when I start to hear those things in another person, that's when I start to. I just. I don't want to lose it, you know, because it's beautiful. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Then I think it will be a very interesting way for you to share some of what you grapple with.

[Esther]

I feel like I'm getting better at noticing when this is happening, but I haven't quite figured out how to, like, just take a step back and, you know, reconnect with myself.

[Esther Perel]

And I. I was going to say something reverse. To ground yourself, what you call to reconnect with yourself. To ground yourself, you can just literally put your feet on the ground.

[Esther]

And.

[Esther Perel]

Press on your heels and bring your hands on the top of your knees and press on them so that you're sitting totally up and you're holding the bony handles, the knees, the shoulders, so you really are grounding. You can do that. You don't have to think and talk. You can literally use your body, use your breath to hold your interiority. You can also, when you start to feel rattled, just take his hand and hold his hand and say nothing or ask him, hold me and just feels good. Or say nothing and just breathe in it.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Into his arms, basically. Use your body to ground, to regulate and to harness the connection internally.

[Esther]

Mm.

[Esther Perel]

Rather than the flight. I leave myself, I leave my body. I try to please you just so that you will not leave me. Mm.

[Esther]

You know, I feel these things particularly intensely when we're being physically intimate. And it just, you know, like, my body is already otherwise engaged, you know, and so that sometimes just feels like a situation where I can't, you know, Like, I'm just. I'm kind of trapped a little bit, you know?

[Esther Perel]

Why trapped?

[Esther]

I think I just have a lot of ideas about what I'm supposed to be doing, you know, and.

[Esther Perel]

Do you like to be with him physically?

[Esther]

Yeah, yeah, I do. It hasn't been very many times, but yeah, I think a lot of this just kind of comes to a head in that context because there's a lot of messaging about what women are supposed to do to keep there men interested in them and you know, and like, regardless of.

[Esther Perel]

Well, what's one. What's one physical thing that you do that you know, for fact is fawning is I do something that I really don't particularly care about, but I think I don't even know if he does. But I've decided I've learned. I was told I read whatever that I should and in the process of that, I literally disconnect from myself.

[Esther]

I think it's more at this point like I. I've been worried about taking too long and I've been having a hard time just like being present enough and relaxed enough to really enjoy myself because there's just this loop going in my head about like, you have to hurry or else he's going to get bored. And, you know. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Do you fake it?

[Esther]

No. But then I feel bad because then maybe he feels insecure because I didn't finish and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[Esther Perel]

And has that been a conversation or not yet?

[Esther]

A little bit. Yeah. We talked a little bit about just. I told him that there's. There's kind of a lot of voices in my head and that sometimes it makes it hard to relax. You know, he was very receptive to that. And I think it's just hard to trust that he really is going to be okay with it and that he's not just saying the right things because they're the right things.

[Esther Perel]

He's saying the right things and you're doing the right things and everybody is. This is a beautiful look you just met.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And all of this needs to come out in conversation. And the trust is built by taking the risks. Small steps each time. The trust is built by your saying, I'm going to take time. Not just time to come, time to get turned on, time to feel grounded, time to be in my body, time to not feel like I'm here to please him only time to find a way to play music together.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And I'm going to be overt about it. No need to be so indirect.

[Esther]

It's scary.

[Esther Perel]

But you will know. Because if he welcomes it or even if he has to adapt to it because he has his own insecurities, because it's always insecure when there is nascent love like this it's always trepidations. If he responds in that vein, then you know that there's two people here discovering each other and discovering themselves with the other. If he starts to become critical, then you probably know that you're in the wrong place.

[Esther]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You know you're in the wrong place because you're with someone with whom you're going to reactivate this entire mechanism of how you've reacted to the critical voice of the man whose love and attention you so yearned for.

[Esther]

Yeah, I think I just have to be brave enough to let that happen. If it's gonna happen, to find out that he's not the right match if he isn't. It feels safer to like, to avoid that kind of discovery. Right.

[Esther Perel]

But no, it doesn't feel safer at all. Oh, no. I know in what vein you're saying it, but it doesn't. It doesn't. It doesn't feel safer at all. It just feels like it's the replay of an old story.

[Esther]

But I'm used to it, is what I mean.

[Esther Perel]

Ah, I wanted it. So you just say to him, I think I met the person with whom I want to learn to become more truthful. I think I met the person with whom I would like to feel that I can be in my body and with you. Do you want that too? Are you willing to be patient with me? That is a level of self assertion that is very different. It's like you are. I like you enough to want to do this with you. Take it as a compliment and put your fierceness that you've put into your self criticism into expressing your wish. Keep that energy, keep that fierceness, but now apply it to your aspirations. Yes.

[Esther]

Sounds so good. I can hear the, you know, the voices fighting back against this.

[Esther Perel]

But you can also have another voice that says, so I met this woman, her name is Esther. And she kind of told me to do something that I so deeply wanted and yearned for, but was very scared to ask for. And yet there came a tipping point where I felt that not to ask for it. Do you know the quote of Annais Nin?

[Esther]

What is it?

[Esther Perel]

Love never dies a natural death. It dies because we don't know how to replenish its source. It dies of blindness and errors and betrayals. It dies of illness and wounds. It dies of weariness, of witherings, of tarnishings. And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. So this session ends with my saying, here's to your blossoming.

[Esther]

Thank you. Really appreciate it.

[Esther Perel]

You are welcome.

[Narrator]

This was an Esther calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire, it could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Moeller and Julian Attorney. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jessie Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

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[Esther Perel]

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