When the Turn On Becomes a Turn Off

Summary

Summary of "When the Turn On Becomes a Turn Off"

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Host: Esther Perel
Episode: When the Turn On Becomes a Turn Off
Release Date: February 10, 2025

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Introduction

In the episode titled "When the Turn On Becomes a Turn Off," renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel facilitates a deep and nuanced counseling session with an anonymous couple who have been navigating the complexities of their 25-year marriage. The core of their struggle centers around a long-standing sexual fetish that has begun to strain their intimate relationship.

The Couple's Story

Background and Connection

From the outset, the couple establishes a foundation of honesty and openness. The husband admires his wife for being "really open and thoughtful and honest," emphasizing their transparent communication and mutual respect (03:14). Their relationship is marked by deep affection and a shared history, including raising children together.

Emergence of the Issue

Approximately 25 years into their marriage, the husband reveals his intense fascination with his wife having sex with other men. Initially perceived as "exciting" and "fun," this fantasy has transitioned into a source of frustration and boredom for both partners (01:27). The husband admits, "It's been in the last six months or so, it's become more annoying for me" (02:00), highlighting the evolving nature of their sexual dynamics.

Understanding the Sexual Fetish

Husband's Perspective

The husband struggles with conflicting emotions surrounding his fetish. While part of him desires his wife to engage with other men, another part fears the potential fallout, likening it to "dropping a nuclear bomb in the middle of your relationship" (01:27). Over the years, his obsession has become increasingly "compulsive" and "obsessive," resembling an addiction that he finds hard to control (09:25).

Wife's Perspective

Conversely, the wife feels "bored" and "resistant" to the fetish's centrality in their sexual life. She acknowledges that while she has entertained the fantasy to an extent, the frequent discussions and impositions of this desire leave her disinterested: "I just want to believe that's what's going on... This is not fun for me anymore" (06:26).

Emotional Underpinnings

Root Causes

Esther Perel delves into the emotional roots of the husband's fetish, connecting it to past experiences of rejection and a longing for control stemming from his adolescence. The husband recounts his struggles: "I hated that part because it was basically sabotaging the things that I valued a lot" (14:38). This fetish becomes a mechanism for reclaiming a sense of agency and desirability that he felt was lost during his formative years.

Impact on Relationship

The husband's fixation on the fetish has inadvertently created a barrier between him and his wife. He admits feeling that his sexual desires have become more of an obligation: "his sexual desire is basically what I'm working on for him" (11:19). This dynamic leads to emotional disconnection and resentment, as both partners feel their individual needs are being sidelined.

Counseling Insights and Strategies

Perel's Analysis

Esther Perel emphasizes that sexual fantasies often serve as "a coded language for some of our deepest emotional needs" (20:28). She suggests that the husband's fetish is not merely a sexual preference but a manifestation of deeper psychological needs related to control, validation, and self-worth.

Shifting Focus to Emotional Connection

Perel encourages the couple to reorient their focus from managing the fetish to fostering genuine emotional intimacy. She highlights the importance of being present and attentive to each other’s needs, rather than allowing the fetish to dominate their sexual interactions. "If you become a little more curious about her, your mind will go and put itself on the connection between the two of you," she advises (22:30).

Introducing Erotic Spaces

To mitigate the fetish's impact, Perel proposes creating "erotic spaces" that promote curiosity, exploration, and emotional intimacy. This involves expanding their repertoire of intimate connections beyond the fetish, incorporating elements like touch, conversation, and mutual appreciation. She remarks, "Sex isn't just something you do. It's a place you go with him, with yourself" (54:16).

Practical Steps Discussed

1. Physical Touch: The wife expresses a desire for more physical affection, albeit with discomfort. She acknowledges, "I wish I could do that more. I think my ideal self would like it" (48:25).

2. Scheduled Intimacy: The couple considers scheduling intimate time to experiment with new forms of connection, though skepticism remains about its effectiveness (57:36).

3. Mutual Curiosity: Perel advocates for shifting some focus onto the wife’s needs, encouraging the husband to express genuine curiosity and appreciation, which could reduce his reliance on the fetish for validation (37:55).

Conclusions and Path Forward

The session concludes with a recognition of the intricate balance between sexual fantasies and emotional fulfillment in long-term relationships. Esther Perel underscores the necessity of addressing underlying emotional needs to create a more harmonious and satisfying intimate life. Both partners recognize the need for conscious effort to diversify their intimate interactions and foster deeper emotional connections beyond the confines of the fetish.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Husband: "It's been in the last six months or so, it's become more annoying for me." (02:00)
• Husband: "I have this strong feeling of really wanting it to happen. But then, once I have orgasms, like, what am I doing?" (09:50)
• Wife: "It's always a barrier with us and it's always there no matter what we're talking about sexually." (19:26)
• Esther Perel: "Our sexual fantasies are a coded language for some of our deepest emotional needs." (20:28)
• Esther Perel: "Sex isn't just something you do. It's a place you go with him, with yourself." (54:16)

Final Thoughts

This episode poignantly captures the struggles that can arise when sexual fantasies intersect with long-term relationship dynamics. Through Esther Perel's insightful guidance, the couple begins to uncover the emotional layers behind their sexual conflict, paving the way for potential healing and deeper connection.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

None of the voices in this series.

[Angel Reese]

Are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? Is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

[Angel Reese]

Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of.

[Esther Perel]

Caring for your home.

[Angel Reese]

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[Esther Perel]

In knowing what to do, when to.

[Angel Reese]

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[Esther Perel]

Start caring for your home with confidence.

[Angel Reese]

Download thumbtack today. Huddle up. It's me, Angel Reese. You can't beat the postgame burger and fries, right? Know what else you can't beat? The Angel Reese special. Let's break it down. My favorite barbecue sauce, American cheese, crispy bacon, pickles, onions, and a sesame seed bun, of course. And don't forget the fries and a drink. It's gonna be a high C for me.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Sound good?

[Angel Reese]

All you have to do to get it is beat me in a one on one. I'm just playing get the Angel re special at McDonald's now.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

I participate in restaurants for a limited time. The biggest thing in our relationship has been my strong fascination with her having sex with other people. For me, it's been a constant struggle. I have this one side of me that's like, yes, I want her to have sex with another man. But then there's the same part of me that's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold up. Like, do you really want to drop a nuclear bomb in the middle of your relationship?

[Angel Reese]

At first it was kind of exciting, fun. And then we start having kids. Things get much more serious. Yet he still wanted to talk about this. And for me, it just seemed too risky.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

25 years I've been dealing with this. It's on my mind whenever I'm thinking sexual things. It's like it always comes back to that.

[Angel Reese]

Every time in my mind while we're having sex. I'm not turned on by this. I'm not thinking about it. I'm in my own world. I want to explore something else. This is not fun for me anymore.

[Esther Perel]

In the screening that we did with this couple that preceded the session, the theme for him was was the tenacity of a sexual fetish that he struggles with. And for her, the increasing boredom with the centrality of this fetish in their sexual lives. But the session proved way more layered and complex than that. So what's important for me to know about your world and who you are in that world.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Well, I guess just to start, like, I feel like I'm really happy to have her in my life. She's really open and thoughtful and honest, and we talk very openly, and we've. I don't think we've ever lied to each other. You know, like, this is what I remember from, like, the first date, is that she was, like, really true. You know, like, looking into her eyes, you could tell she was. How she acted. And, I mean, other reasons. I mean, she's beautiful. She's smart and funny and fun.

[Esther Perel]

And you. What about him? Why him?

[Angel Reese]

I just thought he was really interesting. So the second date is when I really started to like him. And the two main things that I remember about that second date was, like, him just looking me deep in the eye and saying, you're beautiful. There was something about it that felt special. And then just his story that he was living in New York and he let a homeless guy spend the night in his house. He just, like, took him in, which, you know, looking back, like, if he said that now or if he ever did something like that, now I would be like, what are you doing? But, like, at the time, I was like, ooh, that's cool. So those are the two main things that I remember about that. But there must have been other things and just, like, our connection in general that I can't really describe in words. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So tell me, what do you want to talk about and why now?

[Angel Reese]

Well, we have a very interesting sex life because of his fantasies. And it has been in the last year. I guess in the last six months or so, it's become more annoying for me. Well, I want to spell it out just so. So he always brings up either during sex or before we have sex or when he's talking about the next time we're having sex. Hillois, just say, he wants me to have sex with other men or be excited about it. Or he wants me to be turned on by another man, and he wants me to, like, look forward to it.

[Esther Perel]

You want her to get turned on by the thought of being with another man or other man, plural. You want to watch her be sexual with other men. You want to join them in the sex. You want to be a voyeur that they know is there. You want to be a voyeur that is invisible, that they do not know is there. A fantasy is usually extremely specific and detailed. It's never vague.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah, so, like, the normal, rational me, who you're talking to now, you know, doesn't Want that at all. It doesn't want my wife to be with another man, you know? But when I start getting into that fantasy, when I get excited about it, I would like her to go out on a date and date some guy and have a love affair, you know? And, like, I don't know. I don't want to participate in it. I guess ideally, I would like to see her, like, while she's having sex. I want to see her enjoy it or just know she's, like, loving it. But I don't really want.

[Esther Perel]

No, but that is the definition of fantasy. Many fantasies, we would never want them to happen in reality. That's the whole point. Point of it. Do you actually meet other men?

[Angel Reese]

Not for a long time. In the beginning, before we had kids, we played with the idea. So one time I visited a friend, and then I was, like, grinding up on some guy at a dance club or something, and then I was sending pictures to him of me dancing with the guy, and he was like, oh, I really. Yeah, keep doing that. This is perfect. Like, good girl. He might not have said good girl, but that was a really intense weekend for him because I sent that picture. And then maybe a couple years later, I was, like, sexting his friend. So we would talk about what we would do to each other and everything, and it was really sexy. I was really into it, and he was really into it, and the other guy was really into it. And I was getting excited, like, oh, this is really gonna happen. This won't be fun. And then he all of a sudden was like, nope, you're not doing it. This is going too far.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Well, I mean, yeah, I didn't say it like that, but, yeah, I put the brakes on. It was me that put the brakes on. Yeah.

[Angel Reese]

Yeah. So then I was upset then. I mean, I don't know if upset's the right word. I was mad. I was frustrated because he had me believing this was okay, and I was allowing myself to be excited for it, but I didn't get to do it, and I was upset. So then I feel like after that, I was kind of less excited to do it because I was like, well, what's the point in getting all excited about it if I'm just not going to be able to do it anyway? Maybe that's when things started getting a little bit less fun for me. When he brought it up in a lot of the cases, I'm just so bored with it and everything, and I just don't want to hear it anymore. But the other part is, I Know deep down he doesn't want me to do this kind of stuff. And deep down it's hurting him and it's not what he truly wants. I think when it's all over, he feels bad. It might get him excited and we might have good sex over it or something. But then the next, maybe when he has an orgasm or whatever, he'll just start to feel low. He feels regretful.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

And this might be like a sex addiction type thing a little bit, because I. It's kind of obsessive a little bit with it. It's a strong feeling, super strong feeling of, like, really wanting it to happen. But then, you know, once I have orgasms or whatever, like, to right after, it's like, what am I doing? Like, what part of me is sabotaging this thing I value so much?

[Angel Reese]

And, like, I'll try during some of the sex times to go along with it a little bit. Like, he'll say, do you want it? Do you want to have sex with another man? I'll be like, yeah, yeah, sometimes that's enough for him. But it's like, well, there was a time where I wasn't even saying it. Like, no, it's not a good thing to even say, yeah, because that's just going to take you off to the races and you need to be brought back to reality.

[Esther Perel]

I think that what needs to be highlighted here is that the level of frankness, the sexual candor that exists between these two people is its own unique intimacy. There's nothing puritanical in the way they address each other about this. There's also nothing judgmental. They're getting a little annoyed or bored. But essentially there is no what's wrong with you? You're sick. This is pathological. Yes. They highlight the essential quality of the addiction because of its compulsive obsessive nature. But so is a fetish in some way. The fetish often includes that element of obsessiveness.

[Angel Reese]

We tried a lot of different strategies.

[Esther Perel]

You tried various strategies for what?

[Angel Reese]

To get.

[Esther Perel]

What are you trying to do to.

[Angel Reese]

Like, get at this fantasy and to make him satisfied.

[Esther Perel]

That's the goal. Is that why we're here?

[Angel Reese]

To make him satisfied? I mean, yeah, I feel like he's the driving force with the sexual desire. I mean, I have a sexual desire, but I kind of feel like masturbating is enough for me. A lot of times, like, I don't know, it's subtle. When I actually want to have sex, like, it doesn't feel like I need it. Usually it's just like, I could go for an orgasm right now and I'll just take care of myself, you know? So in our relationship, his sexual desire is basically what I'm working on for him. Yeah. That's why we're here, really. I don't know. Well, this is what we want to talk about too. Is my best self who I should be working toward? Is my sexuality part of that? Maybe, but maybe not. Like, I kind of feel like in my top values in life, embracing my sexuality doesn't necessarily need to be part of my best self, but maybe it can be. Is having a good sex life really all that important in life? In our relationship in general?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah. Yeah. So I have this thing where it's really strong. It's all channeled into this fantasy, pretty much this really strong sex drive. And it's almost like needing a drug.

[Esther Perel]

When did you discover it, this fantasy? It's a fantasy. It's a fetish, It's a kink. You can call it anything you want. I'm not. And what is the word you use?

[Angel Reese]

We used to say addiction or fetish.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, you're describing the hot wife cuckold fantasy.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah, the cuckold thing. I mean, I hate. I hate that one actually. Just because it seems so, like, demasculating or whatever.

[Esther Perel]

Like, just like there are many terms out there, so you can pick the one.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Because what will matter is the meaning that you make of it.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And even this emasculating logic is only one of the many different ways that men experience it.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's one of the most common fantasies of men. And it's even more common among gay men. So we're not in a very obscure territory.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

But I'm curious. How did you discover it? Because we stumble upon our turn ons.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's not like we planned them well.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah. So in high school, I never dated. I was overweight and girls were not interested, much to my sexual frustration. And then I lost weight.

[Esther Perel]

Did you feel like in high school you were often watching how other people were having fun?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So you started watching early.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it probably goes back to that. But then, yeah, my first relationship, it was. It's like she. She flirted a little with other guys and stuff. And one time, I just remember we were having sex and I. I was like, think about somebody else. You know, Think about another man. And she was shocked and was like, no. And so then I never brought it up again. But it was a surprise to me, bringing that up. So then with my Second serious relationship. It was just something that was throughout the thing. I would bring it up, and it was always a struggle. I hated that part of myself. I hated it because I didn't have control over it. I felt like I. Everything else inside of me, you know, I could pretty much control even, like, my weight. I felt like I could control a lot of things, but that thing I could not control. And I hated it. It was really something that I really did not like and wanted out of me. I hated that part because it was basically sabotaging the things that I valued a lot, you know?

[Esther Perel]

And the more you would try to get it out of your system and the more it would actually manifest itself. And that's where you began to think about it being addictive.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

May I invite you to think about it in terms of. It speaks. It says something.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It has a meaning. Sometimes it's important to listen to what meaning it has. What is it doing, not just to you, but also for you. When you take a situation that you used to not control, like high school, like all those adolescent years, and now you own it, you initiate it, you introduce it, and you get to control the very thing that you once could not control. Yeah, that was the problem. And then you turned it into a solution. Because you can play her going to someone else, but ultimately she's with you.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah, I think it was painful that you can't control other person's sexuality. Like they are going to have sexual desires that are outside of you with other people and stuff. And I think it's my mind's. Unconsciously, it's turned it into control, and it turns it into something pleasurable for some reason.

[Esther Perel]

What I'm hearing you say, you tell me, is that there were many painful years of rejection and of basically being put in the position of watching. Watching with a sense that maybe this will never be you. So you turn it around.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What happens in the erotic mind is that we often create situations that tap into our deepest fears, wounds, but also dreams and aspirations. Because the fantasy allows you to control. Takes that situation that used to be so painful and turns it into excitement and anticipation, which is ingenious because it's experienced sometimes as repair rather than repetition. Why am I putting myself back in the same situation? Because I'm actually not in the same situation. It has all the elements of the same situations, but I've turned it around and now it becomes a source of pleasure. My question is, do you have sex without it? Is this part of you, the silent or the non? So silent third party in your sex life at all times. So that there is a kind of a restriction that doesn't enable you to just broaden the repertoire together.

[Angel Reese]

It does feel like a restriction. And it's always a barrier with us and it's always there no matter what we're talking about sexually or like, we both know that it's always there. So there's not really much going around it. I mean, if I was like, oh, this would really turn me on. I would like it if he did this or something. I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

Do you ever ask for anything?

[Angel Reese]

I mean, I have certain, like, porn scenarios in my head that turn me on. I'm kind of like in that world in my own head. I don't really want to talk about it. I just want to, like, believe that's what's going on. Like some porn related thing that I saw. Like, again, something I wouldn't want in real life, but like some man being really demeaning to me, that kind of thing. Or like several men being demeaning to me. So that's what's going on in my head and I don't really want him to be a part of all that.

[Esther Perel]

And what is the fantasy for you?

[Angel Reese]

Well, so it's not really like as specific as his, but like, it's like I've watched porn before and like, cream pie gangbang might be something I type in. Well, and just like these little comments that these men make while they're having sex, like when one guy is like ordering the other guys around, I like that. And then the girls who would be me, I guess, in my fantasy, just like taking it, you know, just like being talked down to and I'm just like a sex object. And they can care less about me, that kind of thing. That's what turns me on.

[Esther Perel]

And what is the turn on for you? What is it that turns you on in the demeaning, in the gangbang, in the rapey, in the being the object. And when I say, what is it? It's because I tend to think that our sexual fantasies are a coded language for some of our deepest emotional needs. What he experiences may be translated into a high sexual rush, but what it satisfies is a deep emotional need. I am attractive, I am wanted, I'm desirable. I get to tell this woman how far and how and she comes back in years. What's the turn on? What gets liberated? What gets opened up?

[Angel Reese]

Mm. Well, I think the man in my fantasy is just like doing exactly what he wants and he's Feeling really good. It's like, I guess I. My body is giving him that need, filling that need for him. And I guess I feel like doing my job or something. Does that make sense?

[Esther Perel]

As in, can I understand what you're saying? Of course I do, but I want. See, I think that you've spent so much more time in his head and in his erotic mind than he has spent in yours.

[Angel Reese]

Yeah, definitely.

[Esther Perel]

And there is a certain lack of curiosity on his part vis a vis you. And in effect, you have, over time, developed a lack of curiosity vis a vis yourself, too. You spend more time managing his wishes than actually remaining an active participant. And so that will bring more resentment.

[Angel Reese]

Yeah, I mean, I guess. I mean, I want to say in his defense or whatever, but please. But, I mean, I don't say that it's important to me. And, like, I don't feel like I need it. I think I satisfy myself enough with my own thoughts on it. And, like, while we're together, too. I thought I was, like, understanding myself and not, like, because I understand the ideas that turn me on and everything. And it. I mean, I'd say it's good enough.

[Esther Perel]

I just want him to understand it more. Yeah, I know you do. Yeah, But I don't know if he.

[Angel Reese]

Okay. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And why am I asking this? Because it's an important dimension of your relationship. It's also one of the few places where you actually meet, the two of you. And I understood that you said, I've got my thing. I'm upset. I have my toys, I have myself. I have my fantasies. I don't really need to engage. But in the same breath, you're telling me, I'm getting bored, I'm getting resentful. I start to feel like his fantasy controls our sexuality. And all I do is try to skirt around one way. And that, in the long term, is not particularly the best place to land. While she's asking how important is sex in my life, I begin to also notice that it is not, maybe for her sexuality that needs to be questioned. But intimacy, a fetish, is in itself often rigid. And so it looks like all the rigidity lies with him, but there is a kind of a collusion between them around a structure of rigidity whereby she, too, is very focused on a particular line of excitement. But more importantly, what she says to him is, I can only take you at a certain distance. I don't want to get too close to you. I like the distance that we have between us. That structure suits me. There's a tremendous amount of candor and intimacy and closeness in the way that they can freely talk about both of their predilections. It's mature. There's no hang up about it. It's astoundingly refreshing. Where they get more challenged is when they talk about levels of closeness and qualities of connection. And that's probably what has been hidden because there's been so much talk about sex and fetishes and desires. And in fact there's a different conversation that needs to needs to take place between them. And so this is where we're going to go. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify Every business is looking to build a lasting relationship with its customers. That means cultivating reliability and trust. And that might sound simple, but if you're a small business owner, you know that it's easier said than done. If you want to build your business on a rock solid foundation that your customers can rely on, you might want to check out Shopify. Shopify is an all in one digital commerce platform that wants to help you convert browsers into buyers and sell more over time. And their Shop Pay feature can boost conversions by 50%. There's a reason companies like Allbirds turn to Shopify to sell more products to more customers. Businesses that sell more sell with Shopify. Want to upgrade your business and get the same checkout Allbirds uses. You can sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com Esther that's shopify.com Esther to upgrade your selling today shopify. Support for where should We Begin? Comes from Masterclass. You know that feeling when you learn something new and it completely changes the way you see the world? We strive for those moments on this podcast, but there's another way that you might be able to get these Masterclass. Masterclass is the online learning platform where you can learn from more than 200 of the world's greatest minds, all for just $10 a month with an annual subscription. I've liked the Masterclass. First of all, I have my own class there on relational intelligence. But also just now I went looking for the class of Serena Williams because I've decided to pick up tennis again after many years, so I'm eager to learn. Right now our listeners get additional 15% off annual [e-mail] begin that's 15% [e-mail] begin Masterclass.com begin Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Hungryroot. Hungryroot can be your one stop shop for both Groceries and meals complete with personalized recommendations. All you need to do is let them know what your goals and preferences are and they'll fill your cart. It's like having your own personal shopper and nutritionists all wrapped into one. You can make all of Hungryroot's recipes in just 15 minutes or less. And the meals get more personalized as they learn more about what you liked. I immediately thought of some friends who could really improve their eating habits. So I sent them a package from Hungryroot. Let's see what they come back with. You too can take advantage of this exclusive offer for a limited time. Get 40% off your first box, plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryrood.com begin and use code begin. That's hungryrood.com begin code begin to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Hungryroot.com begin code begin.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

I guess, I mean, we've talked about this a lot and I think it's like, what is the ideal situation, you know, after you've been married for 15 years? What's the ideal sex life with two people? Is it you just think of your own things in your head and you have sex and you know it's good, it's fine. Is it you make love where you're like, I love you so much, so it's not so much sex. It's just like, I just love you and I'm expressing it this way. Or is it where my fantasy was, where, like, she was very excited about somebody else? I was very excited. Do you push that limit further? And is that worth it? The risk? Is it worth the risk for the excitement? What's the ideal thing after being married for 15 years, what's the ideal sex life? That's what we've been wondering about.

[Esther Perel]

And you think, I have the answer to this.

[Angel Reese]

That's why we're here.

[Esther Perel]

Because there's one ideal and it's a set answer and it's a one size fits all.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

No, but it seems to me, I mean, I could be wrong, but it seems like I look around at all the other couples in our neighborhood and stuff, or I know my friends, the friends I've talked with, and it's all mediocre at best kind of sex life. Like, if they've been married this long, Honestly, I think our sex life right now is above average. And it gets frustrating sometimes. I know I annoy her with that.

[Esther Perel]

And you harbor shame.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

I do harbor shame when I feel like I pushed it too far.

[Esther Perel]

So those are the pieces.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And what makes you have more, what you call a more than average sex life is not just the sex that you are having, but the amount of conversations and explorations that you are having about your sex life. Meaning it's an important part of your life. It has a lot of value. And sexuality became the place where you experienced a lot of wounding and also where you experienced a lot of healing for someone else. It could have been art or fishing or cooking or something. And so then the question is, do you ever watch the porn with him? Do you ever bring him into your own erotic space?

[Angel Reese]

I mean, we have. It's usually if we bring porn in, I watch it and he doesn't like. He'll just, like, go down on me or something while I watch it.

[Esther Perel]

You're the one watching him, and he is acting on you. Okay, so the ideal is all of this. It's not a set pattern. In fact, it's the flexibility. It's the fact that it changes. There's a difference between what works, what's exciting, what's at the core of my erotic schema. And then there is how do I feel about it? Do I accept it? Do I understand it? Do I make sense of it? Do I just integrate it into a part of me? A very special, unique, convoluted, irrational part of me? Or is it conflictual? Every time I think about it, I would like to eject it.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

The part of me that doesn't like it, that rejects it and feels shame, is the part that realizes that it's so strong and that it's willing to risk my family, everything to get it.

[Esther Perel]

Give me an example.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Well, I mean, good examples with my friend. I orchestrated it, and I really wanted it to happen. And it would have happened if I didn't put the brakes on. And if it would have happened, you know, who knows where that would have led to? She might have fallen in love, or it might have led to her going out with other guys and falling in love eventually and get divorced or something. You know, I don't know. But that's an example.

[Esther Perel]

And you stopped it.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

I did, I did, but I feel like it was close. It's barely. I mean, I would like to not take it as seriously. Think, oh, you know, this is just my adolescence who's hurt. And it's a playful thing, but it takes me over in the strong thing that's willing to risk everything.

[Esther Perel]

Do you ever talk to it?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

I don't know if I talk to it.

[Esther Perel]

What Would you say if I talk.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

To it, help me to help you? Like, let's. Let's figure out a way that you don't have to be so overpowering in my life. I'd rather not my life be destroyed by you. Let's be friends so we don't. Like, let's not be enemies so that you don't destroy my life.

[Esther Perel]

Part of me is listening to his words, and part of me is listening to his laughter. And especially when you have a laughter that expresses the discomfort, the anxiety, the shame, it's a nervous laughter of which I'm not even sure that he knows he's laughing. But what I know is that me, and maybe you, while you listen to him, hear that there is a kind of a disconnect between the affect and the feelings that accompany the words and the laughter that is meant to bury these feelings. You know, when I laugh like this, what I actually feel?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Well, I think it's just dealing with my uncomfortableness and I guess the absurdity.

[Esther Perel]

Of it, you know, When I laugh like this, it's more than discomfort. When I tap into my hatred of you, it taps into the contempt I have for me that you exist inside of me.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah. Yeah. But I've learned that the more I hate it, it just makes it stronger. The more I focus on it, the more strong it becomes. So I think I'm learning more to try to find a way to appreciate it more or, like, try to not hate it.

[Esther Perel]

How's that going?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

I think it's going better. I don't know. I've tried everything else, so I think this is the only way through. I can't fight it. I don't think trying to understand it has helped because I've thought about it so long and so. And it just seems to give it more life or something. So I think I have to find a way to appreciate it and love it in some way. Like, see what it means. Yeah. Maybe it's a piece of my childhood that needs love. Maybe it's helping me in some way.

[Esther Perel]

Do you think if you brought in some more curiosity toward her that it would change the way you come to terms with your fetish? It won't go away, you're right. But it can change meaning. It can take less space. It can be less frightening or have less contempt because you connect to her in multiple ways. It's about adding other things. It's not about making this go down.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

I think that would be good. I think that would be helpful.

[Esther Perel]

There are many paths to take here. I Just went with one, which is that his decades long focus and obsessiveness about this thing inside of him. I decided in this moment, instead of helping him to go more inside, to actually become more relational, to become more curious about her. I was reminded of another man I once worked with who had erectile difficulties. And he would have rapid ejaculation. And he was so busy looking down at his penis and making sure that his cock worked and stayed strong and hard and was going to deliver that in effect, he was really not attentive to his partner. He was constantly making sure that he would not fail, as he would call it. But he wasn't really present with her. And then I suggested in the session that he put his hands in her hair and just slowly, slowly, slowly caress her head. And I remember the motion of her lips opening up. And to tell him that what would actually make it enjoyable for her was not that he could stay harder, longer, but that he could actually be present and attentive to her. And there's something about that here that I was summoning. Instead of making sure that this thing doesn't take you over, put some of that focus on her. If you become a little more curious about her, your mind will go and put itself on the connection between the two of you. And that in itself will ground you. I think that there's also a part of him that still does not see himself as desirable, wanted and attractive. There's a big part of him that continues to see himself as the chubby, rejected, excluded, invisible little boy. And that is the part that the fetish is holding a grip on. And that's where the laughter sits. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for where should we begin? Comes from Defender. An intrepid spirit can take many forms. Maybe you're an adventurous eater who will travel hundreds of miles for the perfect meal. Maybe you're living out the van life fantasy. Or maybe you're a die hard mountain lover who only feels at home in the woods. Whatever the case, the most devout adventurers will always find ways to push themselves to go farther, stay longer and push harder. And now there's a luxury vehicle that can keep up. The Defender 110. The whole Defender family of vehicles has been engineered for a new generation of explorers. Built with robust materials and tested to the extreme. All to ensure comprehensive on and off road capabilities. Complete with a tough, rigid body design and durable lightweight architecture for extra strength and maneuverability. Whatever your lifestyle, the Defender family has a model to fit. There's the 2 door Defender 19 for a smaller crew or the Defender 130 which seats up to 8. Explore the full Defender [e-mail] My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he.

[Angel Reese]

Loved calculating his return on ad spend.

[Esther Perel]

My friends still laugh at me to this day.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Not everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do. Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign. Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be to be the Republicans have been saying lots of things.

[Angel Reese]

Just yesterday their leader said he wants to own Gaza.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

The US Will take over the Gaza Strip and we will do a job with it too. We'll own it. On Monday, the Secretary of State said.

[Angel Reese]

An entire federal agency was insubordinate.

[Esther Perel]

USAID in particular.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

They refused to tell us anything. We won't tell you what the money's going to, where the money's for, who has it.

[Esther Perel]

Over the weekend, Vice President Elon Musk.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

The richest man on earth, tweeted about the same agency that, you know, gives money to the poorest people on earth.

[Angel Reese]

We spent the weekend feeding your USAID into the wood chipper. Could gone to some great parties, did that instead. But what have the Democrats been saying?

[Esther Perel]

People are aroused. I haven't seen people so aroused in a very, very long time.

[Angel Reese]

Huh. That's a weird way to put it.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Senator, we're going to ask what exactly is the Democrats strategy to push back.

[Angel Reese]

On Republicans on today? Expl.

[Esther Perel]

Do you experience her desire for you separately in and of itself?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Sexual desire?

[Esther Perel]

Yes. Yes, a little.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

But I do feel that, you know, when you've been with someone for 15 years that, well, definitely the newness is not there. You know, the exciting newness. And. But I mean, I know when we're having sex I can tell when she's into it. I mean before did I notice it.

[Esther Perel]

More and did you even get a sense of it because you were so into the script?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

There's a part of you that has not had the opportunity to actually.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah, I know. And that I think has led to some like pretty recently. Within the last. Within the last year. We had that fight where she dressed very. She looked great, she was very sexy. We went out, look at her.

[Esther Perel]

She's right here. Okay. When is these people talk to each other in the third person?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

When we went out on the date and you dressed very sexy and you looked great and. Yeah, I turned it into my thing. That was frustrating for you. I know because I.

[Esther Perel]

Meaning what happened?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Well, I felt she looked very sexy and sexual. And I was like, you gotta wear this when you go out with another guy or something. You know, I said something like that and I think it was really frustrating for her because. Yeah. You even said, I think I wish I could just be attracted to you without you bringing that in. And. Yeah. Why didn't I appreciate it just on my own?

[Esther Perel]

My thought that the issue in part still resides in his not having internalized that he is an attractive, desirable man is expressed right. When he says, when you dress sexy like that, this is attractive to the other guys. It's got to go through a. Another guy who is the attractive, desirable, real man when I am still that unwanted teenager. And that is the deflation that he experiences after he goes through the whole enactment. It's the deflation that confirms that he's actually still that undesirable boy. Speak up.

[Angel Reese]

There was a lot, like running through my mind this whole time, but I don't what to. Well, when you're asking him, does he feel my desire for him? I felt a little guilty. I know I don't compliment him that much. He's always complimenting me.

[Esther Perel]

You are.

[Angel Reese]

You are always complimenting me. And I feel bad that I.

[Esther Perel]

The reason I'm asking you to talk in the second person singular is because there is something in the way that you each talk about each other in the third person that is similar to the way you would enjoy if each of you could be in your own fantasy life in your head while your bodies are together, but each one in their own space. There's something about the you that is direct that you can avoid when you say he.

[Angel Reese]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

So just so you understand, I'm not just picky for grammar.

[Angel Reese]

Yeah, yeah, I get it. So, yeah, I felt guilty when she was asking you about that because I know I was guilty of not giving you the compliments that you deserve. And also like not being touchy and initiating physical contact too. I'm not good at that. I'm sorry for sitting next to each other watching TV or something. I may think it would be nice if I touched his leg right now. I don't do it because I feel uncomfortable. I don't initiate hugging you or kissing you and everything. I appreciate when you initiate hugging Me and kissing me, and I'm very happy somebody's doing it. You really help us to stay connected because you do that.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

It's just.

[Angel Reese]

For me, it's hard. I don't know. It's just hard. It doesn't come natural.

[Esther Perel]

You can't just say that.

[Angel Reese]

Why not?

[Esther Perel]

Because it's a cop out. I'm not good at this. After 15 years, it's a cop out. Because it's 15 years, you're saying I'm not good at this?

[Angel Reese]

Mm.

[Esther Perel]

You know, he spent all this time trying to figure out what roils inside of him and are you comfy? Touching, kissing, hugging your kids?

[Angel Reese]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Or also reluctantly.

[Angel Reese]

I always was when they were baby. I feel like maybe I'm getting a little bit more uncomfortable. I enjoy hugging them and I enjoy kissing them, and I initiate it. But I do also enjoy distance. He enjoys family couch time where all four of us are, like, sitting right next to each other, and I'm just like, okay, I'm gonna go to the other couch. I enjoy having my space. I know I have a part to play in our. In the barriers of our sex life because I'm. I put up a little distance, and I'm not as comfortable being physical with you. So it leaves a lot of space for your fetish to come out. And you do deserve to have me be more touchy with you and hugging you and everything. I wish I could do that more. I think my ideal self would like it. I could see that being nice.

[Esther Perel]

Just.

[Angel Reese]

Like, anytime you're uncomfortable.

[Esther Perel]

But you can be uncomfortable because it feels intrusive. You can be uncomfortable because it feels demanding. You can be uncomfortable because it feels extracting. You can be uncomfortable because it feels non consensual. Uncomfortable is a code word for a bunch of other things. So it's not enough to just say, I'm not good at it because it lacks curiosity and you're too smart for that. Why not? My ideal self would love to feel more expressive physically. And it would actually enrich the vocabulary between us so that we don't get organized by this one aspect of his sexuality. How do you expand the repertoire? It's not even that you diminish the fate. You don't. But you sometimes diminish its ambitions. You diminish the space it takes. And that happens because you enrich other parts. Because both your scripts, your erotic scripts are high intensity, low emotion. Your porn script is a high intensity, low emotion. Actually, the whole turn on is because of the low emotion. You like the guys who are not thinking about you. You don't have to think about them. Everybody gets to do exactly what they want. And that is very freeing. There's no care taking and that works wonders for you. So it works well because you actually are in a similar zone. High intensity, low emotion. But what you're saying is after X amount of years, it starts to feel a little rote. So how do we introduce other intensity? And now the question is, do you just find other high intensity, low emotion, or do you bring in a little bit more emotion?

[Angel Reese]

I don't like the sound of bringing emotion.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, I got it.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Well, I was thinking it'd be nice to bring in some emotion, but. Yeah, I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

How would you want it?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

How would I want it? Well, just what I think I would like is us talking and then touching and then it leading to sex like that.

[Angel Reese]

Well, I would just be so surprised. Even if I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm touching you, you know, I'm comfortable with this. And I'm like, I'm so into you, you're so sexy and everything. Still feel like the fetish is gonna come and take over no matter what.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah. I think we'd have to make a conscious effort to bring in other things.

[Angel Reese]

Well, and when the fetish creeps in, you would have to ignore it.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, you acknowledge it, but then you disinvite it. Actually, you ask it to look at the two of you.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Maybe try.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, you've tried a zillion different things, but it's like you're trying to push it down, push it down and then it just springs back up. So that rarely works. But you can subvert it. You can give it a different role. You can put it on mute for 10 minutes. I'll come back to you. I want to be with my wife tonight a little bit more than with you. But there needs to be something then here of which the volume rises. If this space is too quiet, then the voice of the fetish takes over.

[Angel Reese]

Yeah, but in that realm, I just don't understand how people could have an orgasm thinking of love for their husband and wife. Like, it's not the goal.

[Esther Perel]

You're not doing that.

[Angel Reese]

I mean, isn't that kind of what we're talking about?

[Esther Perel]

No. No.

[Angel Reese]

Well, I guess I'm just wondering, like, if we're talking about making emotion a part of our sex life. I picture like the goal. Doesn't that mean.

[Esther Perel]

Because when you talk about the sex life, you're talking about the act of sex.

[Angel Reese]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

When I'm talking About your sex life. I'm talking about an energy, a presence. Yeah, the air. I'm not talking about what you do. Talking about the quality of aliveness, of vibrancy, vitality, imagination, playfulness, curiosity. That.

[Angel Reese]

That makes sense. Yeah. Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Right. What's the erotic charge between these people? Do they even notice when somebody gets dressed up? Do they notice when they look good? Do they take a minute to look at each other? Do they remember that they are sexual beings? It's everything in between, which, unfortunately, people don't call sex. But of course it is, because you can do sex and feel nothing, doing it doesn't tell you much. And part of what you both are looking at is the quality of the experience. So I often think, you know, sex isn't just something you do. It's a place you go with him, with yourself, in your fantasy life, in your mind. You go to a place that is free of charge. No emotional responsibility. That frees me up. That's the low emotion piece. It's not that you don't care about him or anything. It's just you take for granted that he tells you nice things or that he comes and he hugs you and you enjoy it because you know it's important and you know that he takes care of the quota. Mm. And then you just kind of get away with it by saying, but I'm not into it, or it's not my thing. Rather than, if I want him to talk to me slightly differently, I have to talk to him slightly differently, too.

[Angel Reese]

Like, if I want him. I mean, I don't think I need him to talk to me differently. Wait.

[Esther Perel]

If he felt more seen, liked, desired, appreciated in that way, he would rely slightly less, perhaps, on this one script that he has elaborated over decades to fulfill all those needs for him. What are you thinking?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, I'm hopeful that we could explore the possibility of different ways, and I think that could help. And, yeah, it doesn't have to be sex so much as touching. And we do a good job of talking openly and intimately. I think it'd be also good if we could connect physically at the same time or as an expression of that.

[Angel Reese]

I feel like we kind of tried this, though, right? Remember that time where I was like, I'm going to hug you every morning when I wake up? Remember that?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Yeah, Yeah, I remember.

[Esther Perel]

Well, and I was cleaning and what happened?

[Angel Reese]

I was committed to doing it, but you didn't seem to enjoy it or like, it wasn't helpful.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

I mean, one option is we Schedule the sex instead of sex one time we do that. At least that would be a way to experiment with it and see.

[Angel Reese]

Well, you're saying to like massage each other or something.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Well, no, just like talk and look at me. Be close in bed, talking and looking at each other and just touching. You know what, you're skeptical.

[Angel Reese]

Yeah, well, I don't think it would work. I guess I just don't know how that is a solution. Moving forward.

[Esther Perel]

When you decide to do more exploration just to get less in a narrow groove, you can't constantly measure outcome on the spot. I did this. Didn't work. I did this, it didn't change. That is a terrible way to explore sexually or emotionally or in any form of exploration for that matter. The whole point of exploration is a different relationship with the unknown in which you tried once like that, once like that. You talk about it, you check it out or you don't, but you leave it open ended. If you put yourself in a testing mode, pass, fail, you're going to give up very quick. It's utterly not motivating. But there's a part of you that says if we want this to remain interesting, fun, rich, something we enjoy together, then yes, we need to innovate. But it doesn't mean this position, that position, it means to innovate. The conversation between us, the connection between us, the time we spend alone, that is not about sex. It's actually creating erotic spaces. And when I say erotic, I mean spaces for curiosity, for exploration, for aliveness. And that may mean that maybe the couch is not the place, maybe the street is the place. Because on the street you know for a fact that there are boundaries. Maybe the club is the place. It can be the comedy seller. It can be experiences. When I say emotion, I'm not talking about just sitting and dabbling in the fragile zones of our feelings. I'm talking about other levels of interaction. I say comedy because I think laughing together is incredible. So in my book, this is part of working on sex. I know it feels like, what does that have to do? But it does, because sex is about energy. It's about release, it's about pleasure, it's about spontaneity. All of that is part of the broader question of what do we do for the next 15 years. In this episode, we worked with a man who is struggling with the tenacity of a sexual fetish that has dominated much of his sexual life, and his internal emotional life, for that matter. I did another conversation recently with Gillian Anderson. You may remember her from the TV series Sex Education where she played the lead. My conversation with Gillian was about her book Wand, where she invited hundreds of women to send her anonymously their sexual fantasies. If you want to listen to it, you can go straight to the podcast and go back to November. But more importantly, if you want to watch it, go to my YouTube channel and you can see us in conversation of one of the most fascinating aspects of human sexuality, fantasies and the erotic mind.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise.

[Angel Reese]

We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Att.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Original music and additional production by Paul.

[Angel Reese]

Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin?

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Are Esther Perel and Jessie Baker.

[Angel Reese]

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton.

[Anonymous Couple Member]

Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.