You are Vocal on the Criticism But Silent on the Compliments

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You are Vocal on the Criticism But Silent on the Compliments"
Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Release Date: March 24, 2025

In the poignant episode titled "You are Vocal on the Criticism But Silent on the Compliments," renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel navigates the turbulent waters of a 16-year marriage on the brink of dissolution. This detailed counseling session delves deep into the intricate dynamics between a husband and wife grappling with feelings of loneliness, unmet emotional needs, and unresolved childhood traumas.

---

Introduction to the Couple

The couple at the center of this episode shares a background marked by responsibility and familial obligations. The husband hails from a large family, embodying the "golden boy," while the wife comes from a small family in Eastern Europe under communism, where she bore the weight of self-reliance alongside her brother. Over the past 16 years, they have built a life together, homeschooling their children and navigating the challenges of raising a family in isolation—often without a robust support system.

---

Emerging Issues

As the session unfolds, critical issues surface:

• Loneliness and Lack of Individual Identity:
  Both partners express a profound sense of isolation within their marriage. The wife feels abandoned emotionally, while the husband feels suffocated by the constant responsibilities centered around the family unit.

• Communication Breakdown:
  The wife frequently attempts to initiate one-on-one time, such as suggesting trips or date nights, only to encounter resistance or excuses from the husband. This pattern has led her to file for divorce, feeling that the relationship is beyond repair.

Wife [05:33]:
"The pattern being I reach out and I suggest opportunities for us to connect, just you and me and you in your very responsible fashion find explanations for why this cannot be."

Husband [01:59]:
"When we do argue, I shut down and I would just kind of like not be close to her for like days and days just because I feel so angry and I just hold it all in."

---

Therapist’s Intervention and Exploration

Esther Perel adopts a strategic approach by first highlighting the strengths of their relationship to build a foundation of mutual respect and understanding. She emphasizes the importance of shared values, especially concerning their children, and acknowledges how their deep involvement with homeschooling has inadvertently created blind spots in their marital connection.

Esther Perel [03:30]:
"Tell me, what are the strengths of your relationship?"

She encourages the couple to recognize moments where they have successfully bonded, such as the husband attending a work holiday party with the wife—a rare instance where their relationship thrived.

Wife [06:15]:
"I had a good time. That's all."

Esther Perel [06:39]:
"I had a good time."

This mutual acknowledgment serves as a catalyst for deeper introspection.

Unraveling Childhood Influences

A significant breakthrough occurs as the wife begins to uncover how her upbringing under a socially and emotionally neglecting mother has profoundly influenced her behavior in the marriage. She reveals a desperate attempt to avoid replicating her mother's patterns by becoming excessively controlling and rigid in her approach to parenting and marital relations.

Wife [08:52]:
"I am going to invite you into another way of looking at this, you made a choice to do the exact opposite, but you're doing it with the same energy."

Esther Perel [10:33]:
"Oh, my God, I would love that. I 100% agree with what you said."

This realization illuminates the root of her fear of abandonment and the compulsive need to control family dynamics to prevent past traumas from re-emerging.

Husband’s Struggle with Expression

Conversely, the husband grapples with his inability to express emotions openly, leading to internalized resentment and emotional distancing. Perel facilitates a dialogue where the husband acknowledges his tendency to become a "yes guy," prioritizing harmony over authentic self-expression.

Husband [42:35]:
"Right. So I should Stand my ground, be..."

Wife [42:59]:
"You tell me. You're smart."

This exchange underscores the husband's internal conflict between his need to lead and his fear of triggering further emotional turmoil within the marriage.

Confronting and Reframing Negative Patterns

Esther Perel skillfully directs the conversation towards reframing negative communication patterns. She highlights how the couple’s interactions are often laden with criticisms overshadowing genuine compliments, thereby eroding the emotional fabric of their relationship.

Wife [06:50]:
"It's these connective tissues that are missing at this moment. Even when something good happens, it demands that you actually state something good has happened because you've become very accustomed at telling each other whatever has not happened. You're very voluble on the criticism and quite famished on the appreciations."

Perel introduces the concept of building "connective tissues" through positive affirmations, aiming to foster a more balanced and supportive interaction dynamic.

---

Breakthrough and Moving Forward

The session culminates in a pivotal moment where the wife gains validation for her long-held fears and behaviors, recognizing them as deeply rooted in childhood trauma rather than inherent flaws in her character or the marriage.

Wife [58:34]:
"I can't believe it. It sounds so true to me. It rings like with every fiber of my body. I think that's what it is, you know, that's where it all comes from. So I'm shocked that I didn't see it myself, where it comes from."

This newfound self-awareness empowers her to reconsider her rigidity and opens the door for potential healing and restructuring of their marital relationship. The husband gains clarity on his role, understanding the necessity of being more assertive and initiating positive changes without triggering defensive reactions.

---

Conclusion

While the session does not conclude with immediate resolution, Esther Perel successfully steers the couple towards recognizing the underlying issues fueled by their pasts. The wife begins to empathize with her own trauma-driven behaviors, and the husband acknowledges the need for better emotional communication. This foundational work sets the stage for future sessions aimed at rebuilding their connection, fostering mutual trust, and creating a more balanced and fulfilling partnership.

Esther Perel [59:03]:
"Mad mom."

Husband [59:15]:
"Of course."

Their journey reflects the intricate dance of love, resentment, and the quest for identity within a marriage, highlighting the profound impact of personal histories on present relationships.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Wife [05:33]:
  "I reach out and I suggest opportunities for us to connect, just you and me and you in your very responsible fashion find explanations for why this cannot be."

• Husband [42:35]:
  "Right. So I should Stand my ground, be..."

• Wife [06:50]:
  "You're very vocal on the criticism and quite famished on the appreciations."

• Esther Perel [10:33]:
  "Oh, my God, I would love that. I 100% agree with what you said."

This episode serves as a compelling exploration of the complexities within long-term relationships, emphasizing the necessity of addressing deep-seated emotional wounds to foster genuine intimacy and understanding.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? Is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

[Narrator]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Narrator]

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[Esther Perel]

Work creeping into your personal time. Billi products can turn your daily shower into a digital detox. Nourishing body wash can refresh your skin while you mentally refresh your resume. A full body shave with Billie's award winning razor will help you visualize things going smoother tomorrow. And quick absorbing body lotion can hydrate faster than you can say let's circle back on Monday. You've got your reasons. Billy's got your routine. Shop, shop in store [e-mail] we have times where I feel like we're the happiest. I'm so in love with him. We have like four weeks where I'm like on cloud nine after 16 years. And then something happens like with his family. The second I say anything, he turns into like completely different person. Cold, super, like awful. And then I want to definitely leave and I feel like I'm in the worst marriage and I feel like it's probably not even fixable.

[Husband]

When we do argue, I shut down and I would just kind of like not be close to her for like days and days just because I feel so angry and I just hold it all in. We've kind of adapted to being just very focused around the family and raising our kids and we lost a lot of that touch with who we are as individuals. But I feel like I'm completely by myself in a way, just doing the best that I can for my family.

[Narrator]

They have both been the responsible child. Him to a large family as the golden boy and her to a very small family growing up under communism in Eastern Europe, but where she had to be responsible for herself alone and her brother. They've been together for 16 years and they really carved out a course for themselves on their own. But they're really at a tipping point. Before they come in, she filed for divorce. Each of them basically describes how they're feeling too alone. She feels abandoned by him. He feels choked by her. I Have read the intake and I can see the pages of problems that they are wanting to present to us and the stories that accompany those problems. And I decided it's time to start very differently. So here we go.

[Wife]

Tell me, what are the strengths of your relationship?

[Husband]

I think a strength is that we been together all of these years and we spend a lot of time together. Like we hardly have lives outside of our marriage where we're just like individuals, very independent, we do everything together and we spend a lot of time together by choice. By choice, by mutual choice. And that could be a strength and that could also be a source of some of the other issues. And within that, we share the same values for our kids. And our kids are very central to us as soon as they came into our lives. Everything that we do is with them in mind to the point where it creates a lot of blind spots for us in terms of like taking care of ourselves and of our relationship to each other. And so our kids are homeschooled. We spend so much time with them. And so from my perspective, what I feel is missing the most from my life is us having one on one time where we go out on dates or we do stuff, just us.

[Esther Perel]

We don't have really support around us because, you know, we lived in London, Sweden, like everywhere we go, we do everything alone. I know people leave kids alone like maybe earlier than we do, but for us, I felt like it was better to a little bit wait. But the pressure of us doing everything constantly alone, without the support. There's a year which goes by, we don't have a date.

[Husband]

Yeah, easily. And so I like easily. So I brought up a strength and I'm also kind of drawing out what comes with that as well. Like, she's also very good at running the home. She's a stay at home mom and so she's running the house often. And sometimes when there's opportunities to do things, I feel like she can make excuses to kind of like not pursue certain. For example, like I might have a trip coming up where we can go to Mexico as a couple. And I'm like, that's going to be great. And that might be coming from work, but she's saying like, no, you should go with our son instead and you guys have a good time because I need to take care of the dog and take care of the other kids. So that's the pattern that we've had for years now.

[Wife]

The pattern being I reach out and I suggest opportunities for us to connect, just you and me and you in Your very responsible fashion find explanations for why this cannot be.

[Husband]

Yes.

[Wife]

What you just are highlighting here are what happens when you reach out with a bid for connection. Let's go do this. Let's do that. Something that is a statement that pertains to the two of you. Give me an example of one. When it was received well.

[Husband]

She came to my work holiday party. So the two of us were able to do that. It took a lot of figuring out, but I think you had a good time, right?

[Esther Perel]

I had a good time, yeah.

[Wife]

Can you say this out loud? I had a good time. That's all.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, it wouldn't be my choice.

[Wife]

Of a date, but yes, I had a good time.

[Esther Perel]

I had a good time.

[Wife]

And here's the piece. I appreciate that you pushed for it.

[Esther Perel]

That's true. I appreciate that you pushed for it.

[Wife]

It's these connective tissues that are missing at this moment. Even when something good happens, it demands that you actually state something good has happened because you've become very accustomed at telling each other whatever has not happened. You're very voluble on the criticism and quite famished on the appreciations.

[Husband]

Yes. I feel like that foundation needs to be there where we have a connection beyond our family unit as a couple, and that that would address a lot of the things where I might be failing as a partner.

[Esther Perel]

I just, literally, I sit here and it just came over me that I am like 100% opposite of what my parents. My parents would be thousand percent opposite. My mother would go out to every single event at her work. They would go out as much as they could. We were alone. I remember the first time I was taking care of my brother since I was like. We did daily groceries at the age of seven. We did entire summers of manual labor work growing up. Food, you know, it was a communist country, so if you want to have different food, you got to figure out how to grow it. And my mother just is extremely social person and workaholic. So when you combine the social life with working nonstop, you know, And I hated it to be alone with my brother that much, for sure. And I think I was like 10 when they took over first time for a weekend and for three days. And I didn't think we were ready to, like, live by ourselves like that. So I'm now thinking I almost made it, like, my mission to not do the mistakes my parents made with us. I just want to make sure all the creatures in my care feel so loved and taken care of.

[Wife]

I am going to invite you into another way of looking at this, you made a choice to do the exact opposite, but you're doing it with the same energy.

[Esther Perel]

Like what they do.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Wife]

She had all the explanations for why she couldn't be home, and you have all the explanations for why you can't leave home.

[Esther Perel]

That's very true.

[Wife]

I know if you look at a choice, then it's different. But if you look at. It's unbelievable how you set out to outdo your mother. And that began to feel to me like it's the dominant thread of your life, is, I'm going to do it better than you, Mom. I'm not working outside the house. I'm not gone all the time. I'm glued. I'm glued because I missed out on love. And when we feel abandoned, our coping mechanism is to glue people to us. But the energy, I would almost say the rigidity with which you're doing it, which is why he gets all the explanations for why no is I have a feeling remarkably similar to her. And my goal, or our goal, would be to give you the permission to finally be really different.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, my God, I would love that. I 100% agree with what you said. I really think I'm doing different things with the same energy.

[Narrator]

I'm listening to the boldness with which I instantly, within 10 minutes of the session, addressed with her the certitude of her story. But it is exactly because she was so convinced that she's doing differently, that what was so obvious was how similar it actually was. Indeed, mom was always gone and she would never go anywhere. But the fervor, the conviction, the non negotiable stance that was invested in this was actually really one and the same. And here's this crucial moment of the session. She could have looked at me and said, what are you talking about? And I would have had to completely step back and first create an alliance with her. But what happened is that it landed so strongly that the alliance was created through the intervention. And from that moment, I felt that she trusted me, that I could say things. And I hear how stuck she is in her story in this narrative. I heard it also in the intake interview. Same words, same story. And so those are the moments when I go back to one of the first things I said when I started the podcast, which was when a couple comes to see me, they come in with a story. And the goal of at least the first session is for them to leave with a different story. And with her, it just went very, very, very fast. From that moment on, the door had opened.

[Esther Perel]

Before we move forward, do you want. I just wanted to very quickly touch upon what I think is great about us, because I feel like I didn't have a goal. Well, first of all, like, our mothers adore each other, which. That alone is, like, such a. Not that it's, like, directly about our relationship, but the fact that my mom absolutely loves his mom. You know what I mean? I think that's very rare. And, like, in. But with us. So we. When I met him, like, originally, he's right here. And I think I felt like I've never met anybody like him before.

[Wife]

You just talk to the second person.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. Like, I saw his. You know, I always think, like, hands are very special on people. And, like, I saw his hands and I saw him working and I saw.

[Wife]

Him, like, stop, stop.

[Narrator]

Okay, here's the.

[Wife]

Yes, it's much harder. It's much harder.

[Esther Perel]

So I should tell him as like I'm telling him right now.

[Wife]

That's correct. Yes.

[Esther Perel]

I'd rather birth a third baby, but let me just.

[Wife]

She's about to say nice things. You know, there's not much really to be worried about. But look what happens when we've gotten so into the criticism and the negative feedback all the time. I know how suddenly it becomes the most vulnerable thing to say something nice. But I love the fact that you said, I do want to first say something that I also value because we had left it out, and it was really the right step.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you. Thank you. So I love our sex. And you know that. I don't know if he loves it as much as I do, but, you know, I love you so much. And, you know, my favorite part is when we're at home, because I feel very special. It makes me feel really good at home. When you're not influenced of anything outside, like your family or other people or the social norms, you see me for truly who I am, and I think that's why we have such a good sex life.

[Husband]

And how do you see me? The way I am at home versus the way I'm outside of the home?

[Esther Perel]

Well, you know, that. Drastically different.

[Husband]

That's why I'm asking and. Because that's something.

[Esther Perel]

But that's not a strong point. Now we're highlighting the good things. This is bad stuff.

[Husband]

But you love me being at home so much because of the way you are and also because of the way I am at home.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Husband]

Versus the way I am outside of the home.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Husband]

That also plays into it. Right?

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Husband]

Which it's worth chatting about as well. At some Point?

[Esther Perel]

Well, yeah.

[Wife]

Try something else. Shall we?

[Husband]

Sure.

[Wife]

Okay. If somebody says, your soup was delicious, I love your soup, what do you think is a better response? Thank you, I enjoy hearing that. Or, but you don't like my apple pie.

[Husband]

That's true. That's a good point.

[Wife]

Okay, I know you are eager, but nothing will change if you can't re establish that more tender, kind, appreciative part of the relationship and not just about the unit. And she was talking about you. She actually was not talking about the family.

[Husband]

That's right.

[Wife]

But I don't even know if you could hear it. So we'll do it again.

[Esther Perel]

You want me to keep going, saying.

[Wife]

Good things, whatever else you wanted to say, and you can do it face to face, or you can.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, the easiest for me would be me telling you no. Why?

[Wife]

Because. What? For what?

[Esther Perel]

Because it's the easiest.

[Wife]

I know it. It's easy to say things to me, but it doesn't really change the dynamic between the two of you. Just practice it.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. You know, I love how you are with the boys. Of course. I think you're the best dad.

[Husband]

Thank you, darling.

[Esther Perel]

In some ways, when you. As far as your interaction with them, of course, I think you could spend more time with them when you come back. Oh, my God. Now we're doing the same thing.

[Wife]

Excellent.

[Esther Perel]

I caught myself. You see that?

[Wife]

Yes. That filter is essential. Perfect editing.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

[Narrator]

She heard what I had said to him and she caught it when she did it herself. Basically, it had come to a place where they couldn't say one positive statement that one qualified and that didn't have a but in there. And when there is a but, we tend to hear the second part of the sentence more than the first. So there was a reason that I started the session asking them, tell me about what's good, what's strong, what's an asset? Partly it's because I could sense they were just eager to plunge into the problems. And we are better able to deal with the problems when they sit on top of a foundation of something that is good. So that's why I had asked, and it's such a powerful diagnostic question. Are people actually able to say this without qualification? Are they able to say it to the person that they're saying it to, or do they look at me because it's actually too vulnerable to look at the person and. And say, you know, you are a fantastic father. You're my preferred lover. I loved your hands from the first day I met him. And she tells him a lot of very special things. But she realizes that when you've developed a kind of a carapace and a defensive position in a relationship, saying nice things to the other to their face has become quite vulnerable.

[Esther Perel]

And, of course, I also love how you are with my family. I see why everybody loves you at your job, but just because the way you treat people, you know, it's so rare. And, you know, I kind of love how we did everything alone, in a way. And I love how we always toughen up, like, the hard times.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Because it's like, we're always alone. Right. Because, like, we're so good together. Sometimes I feel like we're so perfect because we know each other so well and because we. I think at the end of the day, we still feel like we've never met anyone like each other, you know?

[Husband]

Yeah. Yeah, I feel the same way.

[Narrator]

The word alone is at the heart of her experience. And in part, she was alone when mom wasn't home and was always out. But her experience now is that we are alone. We are two, breathing the strength into one. And therefore, I am not alone in the way I used to feel. I'm alone and strong. I'm not alone and scared because we are together. But there is an aspiration toward merging that also is part of the way she describes the oneness.

[Husband]

And then one of the things that's difficult for us is how different. I grew up with my family, and when I interact with them, I wonder how you see me and what it does to you. When I interact with my siblings, with my parents, I often feel like you think I love them more and, like, I want to spend more time with them or when we involve other people in our family, sometimes it's hard because of how different they are culturally and because of my relationship and the way I am with them. I guess because of the way I was raised, we're so close, and that put a lot of extra tension.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, that's why I filed for divorce, because the way his family is massive problem for us, and it's like, there's this part of me which I love them so much.

[Wife]

You filed for divorce?

[Esther Perel]

Well, I mean, like, almost. I emailed his mother that I'm doing it. It was like, five weeks ago. I was like, that's it. This was the closest we've ever been to splitting up. And it's a situation where one second.

[Wife]

One second because we're about to shift is an amazing non sequitur. From all of what you just said, you go into the. That's why I filed for divorce from family? Yeah, because relationship and what happens to all what you just said.

[Esther Perel]

I was dead hurt that I thought it erased it. I don't know. It was secondary because at the end of the day I feel like if he's not going to be with me all the way and take my side, I need to be around and healthy until at least the kids are like 18 and can go and do whatever they want. So if I am the only one making sure I'm standing, then yeah, I did think it was bigger than all the good stuff.

[Narrator]

The very behavior that she is bemoaning vis a vis his family and how he takes their side and how he loves them so much is exactly what initially attracted her, which was that he loved them so much. And so she thought, here is someone who knows to love, to be kind, to be loving in a family, to be a good dad, to be a good husband, to be everything I never had. But now that it wasn't all about her, it became intolerable. Too painful. And I was very surprised when she said that's why I filed for divorce first of all, given what had just preceded, but also because in fact that is partly why you think you filed for divorce now, but it is equally while you married him 16 years ago. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from the NPR podcast Up First. Staying on top of breaking news takes more energy and attention than ever before. But imagine how much time could you save if you limited your news consumption to just 15 minutes a day. Maybe you would spend an extra hour with a loved one or simply stop doomscrolling and go for a walk around your neighborhood, preferably in nature. If you'd like to reclaim your attention without falling out of the loop, you might want to listen to the NPR podcast Up First. Up first is a daily show that covers the three most important stories of the day in just 15 minutes. Episodes touch on the essential stories you need to know and cover topics like international conflict, the new administration, and so much more. I listened on the train on my way to the studio today and I really appreciated how short and to the point episodes are. If you're looking for more news and less noise, you can listen to the up first podcast from NPR today. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify. Running a business isn't as glamorous as you might think. They add thousands of hours of behind the scene work to build infrastructure, develop products, and attract customers. In fact, it's almost impossible to keep things running smoothly without a supportive, consistent team. If you want to add another member to that team, a platform you and your customers can rely on, you might want to check out Shopify. Shopify is an all in one digital commerce platform platform that wants to help your business sell better than ever before. Shopify says they can help you convert browsers into buyers and sell more over time. There's a reason companies like Mattel and Heinz turn to Shopify to sell more products to more customers. Businesses that sell more sell with Shopify. Want to upgrade your business and get the same checkout Mattel uses? You can sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com Esther that's shopify.com Esther to upgrade your selling today shopify.com Esther support for where Should We Begin Comes from Masterclass what you do isn't always exactly what you love. You know, accountants can be beautiful singers. Mechanics can have an eye for filmmaking. Zookeepers can be genius investors. Enter Masterclass. Masterclass is the streaming platform where you can learn from the world's greatest minds. Learn about meditation, gut health, screenwriting, business management and so much more. All for just $10 a month when you sign up for an annual subscription. I like Masterclass not just because I have my own class there, but also because what I appreciate is is how we can learn at our own pace. We can pause, rewind, come back to the favorite parts or to the parts that need repetition for us. And I appreciate how the teachings on Masterclass are taken out of the ivory tower and into immediate applications in the worlds that we live in right now. You can get an additional 15% off your annual [e-mail] begin. That's 15% off [e-mail] begin masterclass.com begin.

[Esther Perel]

You know, you completely unfoundedly accused me of all these things which are complete lie at home. He said he's taking my side obviously because I didn't do anything. But to his family, not to upset this relative who is not mentally ill there, I felt like he betrayed me more than like if he had an affair basically because he knew how hurtful that was. And for me to find this text message after he's telling me he's not socializing with this person, not talking to him. I find this text message saying, oh, I love you and I want to hang out with you. She's with the kid. We can hang out. So this guy makes up a story that I named our first family pet after nickname he had in high school. This guy is like 50 year old man. Somehow I supposed to know that his nickname in high school was something I named my dog. Belittling him by doing this. His family believes that I tried to belittle their relative by calling our dog, making up the name, choosing this like most insane.

[Wife]

Can I just. Where are you going while all of this is happening now?

[Husband]

I can respond to it like I can.

[Wife]

You're just waiting for your turn.

[Husband]

I can certainly speak to it.

[Wife]

No, no, no, don't, don't. Because the whole situation has very little to do with the dog and the relative and the names and all of that. You are mired into the story. It's the same as what I said about your parents. You're mired in the story and you're not seeing the pattern. You're not with me, that means you're against me. It's either or. You cannot say this and do that. Ambiguity is inexistent in this situation. Finding ways to appease people so that one can continue to be in relationship cannot feature here. And you're about to throw your entire family, 16 year relationship, everything you've just highlighted that you value so much into the dumpster because of this. I don't want to demean it or devalue it, but it's like, seriously.

[Esther Perel]

Because I feel like the justice of being accused something I haven't done. And then, you know, and then he accused me of witchcraft. If I send bad vibes to his art project.

[Wife]

Where is your sense of humor? Where is your. Oh, this is an interesting plot. This is quite a play.

[Esther Perel]

It's so insane that it should be in a freaking.

[Wife]

And where is your bonding around what families sometimes can create such elaborate schemes and stories? And where is your good dealing with your family?

[Esther Perel]

I would have all of that if he was with me. If I felt he's with me.

[Wife]

No, here is the thing. If he agreed with you and just said yes, like a good puppy, you would lose much respect for him. Because if he's a good puppy with you, he's going to be a good puppy with everybody. And you like strong people with personality and integrity. What you're asking him, if he was to do so would lessen your esteem for him, you'd feel better because he sided with you, which he did at home. But you won't have much respect for him because what you just said is, I like your decency. I like the way you treat people. I like it for others. But when it's me, I need you to just join me so you find.

[Esther Perel]

Him Expressing his love for the person who had caused me so much hurt. You find that decent? Because I find a pacifying mental illness is never going to get fixed.

[Wife]

I think that by putting yourself in the center of the plot, you are not helping him. And he can't think well, that's for sure, because he's busy making sure that he doesn't have you on his negative side. And then he can't really look at what's happening with the family because you've made it about you.

[Husband]

And imagine they brought me in. My mother is not well. And her receiving an email about how she's decided to end the relationship and being asked not to contact us. My mother is not in a good health.

[Wife]

Yeah, but now we're gonna start blaming.

[Narrator]

People for heart attacks. So wait a minute.

[Husband]

No. Yes. Yeah.

[Wife]

I'm just saying your families get along. Your first sentence is about how the mothers love each other. Your next thing is about how great of a dad he is and how much of a sense of family he has. And then the next thing is about how you are going to regulate how he's going to handle his family. I mean, if the guy is not well and out of his mind, then he needs to be the central figure. But you've made it about you, and now it's about the two of you. And he's betraying you because he told you one thing and he went to handle his family another way. Because that's what we do in a collectivist culture. You tell everybody what they want to hear.

[Esther Perel]

I think you're right.

[Wife]

And it's an art. If you want to navigate all these relationships, you have to tell each one that their soup is the best.

[Husband]

There's a lot of nuance. There's a lot of, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, my God, So true.

[Husband]

It's not simple. And especially when it's your own family, too. Like, we're talking about someone that's very close to me that I see as a close mentor and someone that I owe as well. Like most of my family, they've done everything they could to make sure that I'm okay. So for me, it's not as simple as just speaking my mind, saying, why immediately feel. There's also this currency that goes back and forth.

[Wife]

Right, right. But your strength is that you say things just as they come out. His strength is that he can hold it a little bit, scan the landscape, and then navigate and negotiate the multiple connections, and you can turn to him and say, you are betraying me. You are weak. You are pandering. To everybody and all of that. But you can also look at him and just say, it's quite amazing how you are able to juggle all these things. And then you can say to him, what do you think? Because you become artful at knowing what everybody else thinks and needs and wants. And that usually goes hand in hand with not really knowing what you think anymore, because you're busy and everybody else's psyche. And that's where your strength comes in. And now you start to have complementarity of high quality. But this is a missed opportunity. In effect, this becomes a marital crisis. You filed for divorce, and my mom.

[Husband]

Is very heartbroken over all of this. Another thing I could maybe share is that us moving back to the States from Europe, part of what we were excited about is to have the kids close to my family. And so this changed everything. We didn't expect it. It put a lot of tension and pressure, created a lot of problems for us. What she's sharing here is probably just a percentage of things that have come up in the family that have caused.

[Wife]

Issues for us, but they're all about the same thing. Who do you fight for?

[Husband]

Yes.

[Wife]

Doesn't matter what the situation is. That's why I'm saying, don't get mired in the story, in the details of the plot. The dance is the same one each time. You stand up for them, not me. You're in a triangular competition all the time.

[Narrator]

The tension that's highlighted between them is that he cannot speak about himself outside of the context in which he sees himself vis a vis his family. There is something in the way that he talks about the mother, the uncle, the sister, that it's understandable why she experiences this in somewhat of a competitive way in which she needs to carve her place. But on the other end, it is also so that she really feels that he's there for her only when there's nobody else around, not physically and not internally for him.

[Wife]

In that triangular competition, you learned where and when, because that usually doesn't start in adulthood. It's a triangulation.

[Esther Perel]

The only thing I can think of is when my dad grew up, the girl was extremely favored. You know, like, my dad always wanted a dog, never got in. And the second she could talk and said she wants a dog, there was a dog. You know, things like this.

[Wife]

Were you your father's favorite?

[Esther Perel]

He implemented identical, like, I mean, I could burn the mother down.

[Wife]

Did you tell him that he kept putting you first?

[Esther Perel]

No. My mother completely emotionally neglected me all my life and turned all her love to my brother to even it out.

[Wife]

Welcome to the family plot. You will recognize that it's the same thing each time. It's always about who comes first, who gets the affection, who gets the loyalty.

[Esther Perel]

Because the way I grew up that I was competing for my mother's love.

[Wife]

And him proving to you that you are number one is the greatest victory you can have. I mean, it's interesting. We've talked about the two of you, and in a way, we've talked more about your families than you. So they're very, very present. But you're not always clear what their presence is doing to the two of you. When you start talking about how your mom is still affected, you are in effect saying to her, my mom's well being matters more than yours.

[Esther Perel]

And I.

[Wife]

Feel like she's not off. You don't experience your sense of self as separately from the family that you come from.

[Husband]

Yes.

[Wife]

And you have tried very hard to create a sense of self that is different from the family that you come from without realizing how tight you are.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Wife]

And so the question is, how do you bring some more freedom and space and independence between the two of you and more adult connection between the two of you so that when you ask him things, you don't just ask him things from a family triangular perspective, but you ask him things as a partner. The things you want from him are not from your partner. They are all corrective measures to your childhood.

[Esther Perel]

That's so crazy. But I also, with the kids, I don't want to defend myself, but I also never want them to feel the way I felt.

[Wife]

I know that. Oh, do I know that? The choice of homeschooling them and the choice of not finding anybody to leave them with over years, when that happens, I'm going to protect them from ever having to feel what I felt and hurt me so badly. And you're doing it probably beautifully. Your kids don't feel lonely, but the two of you are feeling more lonely than is necessary at this moment. He can't convince you to go do something with him. Fun, playful, alive.

[Husband]

And there's resentment that builds up inside me because there's a lot that I bottle in as well, like my emotions. I don't express them all the time. I'm more thinking about feelings rather than feeling them in my body. And so when we don't get that time to ourselves, I become more resentful. I start to distance myself. Then if I spend time with my family, I feel like sometimes she might be a little bit. I might Go out with my sister and she might tell me, like, oh, what did you guys do? And I can already feel that there's some kind of a questioning or attention.

[Esther Perel]

And I can tell you why. Because he has like a different measurement for people or the whole world and his family. And when he's with his sister, she's the most brilliant person he knows. He wants to take pictures with her. He loves her. So, you know, all these things he never does with me, he never wants to take photographs with me.

[Wife]

Don't do that because you're doing it on the heels of him telling you, I want to go out with you, I want to have fun with you, I want to be playful with you. And you are more hooked to your jealousy and your competition than your desires with him. It's off. Maybe you understand he doesn't want to take pictures with you. You repeat that all the time and it becomes the story. Because relationships are our stories. And we have this tendency to confuse our stories with the truth. All of us.

[Esther Perel]

But honestly, like, when he says, his mom is not well, I want to eat this table right now. How mad that makes me. Because his mom is not well for a very, very long time.

[Wife]

Hold on, hold on. Because we were talking about the two of you, so for a minute, we're not going to bring a family member in here.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Wife]

We're going to just meet the couple and I want to make sure that you get the space. You know, you were talking about how you're holding things in.

[Husband]

Yes.

[Wife]

And how, in effect, you find yourself constantly in a choice between speaking up and saying what you think or feel versus managing her reaction. And the more you manage her reaction and the more resentful you are becoming. And the more resentful you become, and the more you take distance and the more she starts to feel jealous and the more you have to navigate the competing needs of other people and the less. What did you say so beautifully? I think about my feelings because I can't feel them.

[Husband]

Right. And that's detrimental to me, to my well being.

[Esther Perel]

It's funny, he told me the other day, he's like, the second I saw you, I knew I can be like a yes guy. So you find me interesting. Basically.

[Wife]

I couldn't agree with you more. And you're losing that.

[Husband]

I'm losing that.

[Wife]

And you're not gonna like yourself and you're not gonna like her.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Wife]

And instead of waiting till she agrees with you, bring your initiative. Not as a task, as a need. Yes, as a wish.

[Husband]

Right. So I should Stand my ground, be.

[Wife]

More assertive, but not in opposition to her. You are assertive at this moment. When you are in opposition to her, sometimes you may just say, let's do this, and then be reassuring to her.

[Husband]

Sure, absolutely. Yeah. And what I would expect is her being in opposition to me at that point. I tend to be very optimistic and I tend to be like, hey, let's do this. This is going to be fantastic. It's going to be good for us. We're going to experience some joy.

[Wife]

Right.

[Husband]

And she might be like, no, you might only want to do this for selfish reasons. Or like you're making these types of friends because it serves you in a particular way. And so that's why she's not interested. And she doesn't join that call to, like, do something, like, different. She won't join me in. In the experience.

[Wife]

And then what happens?

[Husband]

That can escalate into an argument. It could turn into something quite big where she starts bringing up things from the past that I haven't done well. And then at that point I'm just like, all right, so. So that's part of the reason why I'm very careful about what we choose to do. Like the holiday party, as an example. Like, I knew that maybe she wasn't going to be like 100% thinking, this is going to be the funnest thing in the world. But I did know that at the end of it, she's going to be very glad and happy that she got to do it. But there was some work.

[Wife]

How did you do it? How did you manage to have her doing.

[Esther Perel]

Get me out of trouble?

[Wife]

Yes. I like the humor with which you, if you could have some of that in your house, would go longer.

[Husband]

The humor. Humor. Humor is important. Getting her to really imagine herself being next to me and how important it was for me to have her there. I kept telling her, it's going to be great for you to come. I want everyone to meet you.

[Wife]

Lovely.

[Husband]

And she was in and out of it. Like, she was like, no, I'm not going. Yes, I'm going. There was a dance.

[Wife]

She gives you a run for your money. You're good at this. My God. This is to hone your chops. Every time she resists, you tell her, I so love how you're making me stand up for myself, how you're strengthening my will.

[Narrator]

In the example of the holiday party, they highlight once more what I called earlier in the session, the high quality complementarity between them. On some level, not consciously at all. He chose her because she would help him stand up for himself. She would actually help him say what he needs, say what he wants, which she's very good at, including when he wants her to come with him to the party. And on the other side, she chose him with a sense that he could bring her the warmth of family that she never had and the love that he could share with them. She imagined he could also bestow upon her. And that complementarity by which one person brings connection and the other person brings individuation is a very powerful pool of attraction between two people. We are in the midst of of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Neutral Many of us have had what you might call a hair journey. Maybe you tried hundreds of sample sizes until you found the perfect product product. Maybe you had to speed date salons to find the perfect hairdresser. Or maybe it took years of trial and error until you figured out how to tame your glorious mane. Well, if thinning is a part of your hair journey now, you might want to consider neutral. Neutral is the number one dermatologist recommended supplement for hair growth trusted by over 1.5 million people. Start your hair growth journey with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering you $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to Nutrafol.com and enter the promo code begin. Find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend Nutrafol for Healthier Hair Nutrafol.com spelled N U T R A F O L.com promo code begin that's Nutrafol.com promo code begin this season, a new hot deal has arrived at Metro. $25 a line for four lines with all the data you need and four free Samsung Galaxy A15.5G phones.

[Esther Perel]

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[Narrator]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Husband]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Narrator]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Husband]

One other small thing that I might add here. So for New Year's, we went out of the city. We went upstate.

[Esther Perel]

I had the best time of my life.

[Husband]

Those are the things she loves to do the most. Where there's the few amount of people, where we're not in public, where we're in nature.

[Esther Perel]

But that's what I was going to tell her. While I tend to now go more into the serenity of nature. Like, we were making fires in this upstate property. There was absolutely nothing else to do. We were making the fires with the kids at night. We were making puzzles. There was no technology during my husband's idea of good time. Take the kids, grab them and eat junk food and watch movie on Times Square. You know, for me, that's like. That's a big screen. You take them from screen. They looked at home from screen and tv. And then I was like, so since you were already up there, why didn't you take them to Central Park? You know, Because I like present activities. I like much more pure and healthier in every single way versus his idea, the things he wants to do. Of course I like to see movies here and there. But like some. So many times he offers ideas and he doesn't offer help with the logistics. Like, how are we going to do it then? So if we're going to do this, are you going to help me to.

[Wife]

Okay. May I?

[Esther Perel]

Yes.

[Wife]

He comes with an idea. You say, what should we do to make it happen?

[Esther Perel]

Instead of even vocalizing it into the.

[Wife]

Criticism and into the resentment before anything. And if they want to schlep together to Times Square. Your kids are being homeschooled. It's not like they're going to get contaminated. You care about certain things and it's very important and you value them. But it doesn't have to be purest in order for it to stand. It will stand. So when he comes with an idea, you're not responding to the idea. You're responding to your abandonment of this man. The response is instantly, I'm all alone with everything. It's a response from your childhood. Me with the kids is like me with my brother. And I have to attend to everything. And you fall in the trap every time you see it.

[Husband]

What can I do?

[Wife]

Well, you tell me. You're smart.

[Husband]

It's a pattern. It's a pattern.

[Wife]

You know, don't play helpless because you Take on the role of the victim in the house. I'm so good. I'm so kind. I care about everyone.

[Husband]

I'm always happy to be wrong. And maybe that's part of it, too.

[Wife]

No, but you come home with an idea and she goes into the. But who's going to do this and who's going to do that? And what do you do?

[Husband]

Sometimes it does upset me to the point where, you know, we argue about it. Makes me feel like I hate that I had to get to this level where we have to discuss it in this manner.

[Wife]

Don't. See, the thing is that you respond as if she's the one leading you.

[Husband]

I have to lead more.

[Wife]

Yes.

[Husband]

Yeah. Some ideas are easier to implement than others. Sometimes I tell her, hey, why don't you go with your friends? Because I see it does her a lot of good as well to be doing things on her own. So I'm like, why don't you go with your friends and just take a trip? And that's something I do bring up pretty every now and then. So it's also those types of ideas.

[Esther Perel]

Never. He's never been with the kids and a dog alone. I took the kids to Europe. I had all of them for six weeks. He goes on business trip seven days at the time.

[Wife]

So why don't you.

[Husband]

She has the opportunity sometimes.

[Wife]

No, we all know that. But why don't you? It's not about you.

[Esther Perel]

Because you're gonna think I'm crazy even more.

[Wife]

But no, I've not had that thought. 1.

[Esther Perel]

Because I don't think he takes care of all of them as well as I would.

[Wife]

I have not had that thought. And I want you to. Not necessarily.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Wife]

Take that detour. Okay, so what did you say? Because I don't think he takes care of them as well as I do.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Wife]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And I'm not there. And I guess at the end it goes back to my childhood where the fraction of me leaving them and possibly them having, like, a lower quality of everything in a way. You know, I mean, like, they're not going to go to park for as long. They're not going to. Maybe. You know, now as I'm saying it, it sounds so insane. Honestly.

[Wife]

It's not insane. It's raw, it's fragile. It's traumatic.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. I feel like I can't leave that.

[Wife]

Right. But not because of him.

[Esther Perel]

And it's actually not because of him.

[Wife]

Okay. We need to establish that once you need to establish that it's not because of him. There is a level I called it rigidity. I will control this to the nth degree to make sure that there is not an ounce of what I felt in my childhood that my kids will feel.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, but what is that? Jesus Christ, how did I took it to that level? It's almost like, unreasonable. You know what I mean?

[Wife]

It's not almost, but it's understandable. There's something so not grounded in reality, but grounded in trauma, grounded in early deprivation, where it becomes a dogma to the point where him one minute with the kids alone, after I've described how much is a fantastic father is inconceivable to me. And it's not about him.

[Esther Perel]

100% agree.

[Husband]

But what I would love is opportunities for me to also grow as a father, to be alone with my kids, for me to, like, do things my way, not just the way she wants them.

[Wife]

If you are able to vacate the space and let him take over, it's not just to see if he's capable and if he can do it his way or as well as you, because you're not the boss of the. Of criterion here, of what is good parenting. But the most important reason for you to do this is that if you can allow him and you can begin to trust him, you will finally take care of the original wound, that you're not all alone with everything on your shoulders.

[Esther Perel]

No, I agree 100%.

[Narrator]

Just see if he's capable.

[Wife]

It's actually.

[Esther Perel]

It doesn't even matter if he's. I mean, we all know he's capable. More than capable.

[Wife]

Okay. You know, can you say that to him?

[Esther Perel]

I know you're capable of doing even if you do it a little bit differently.

[Husband]

You know, I know you're very particular, but, yeah, I can.

[Esther Perel]

I know nobody's gonna be dead when I come back.

[Husband]

There's things that I could do at home, but what I also need is, like, the feeling good and that you trust me and that we're, like, on this mutual mission.

[Wife]

So when she doesn't trust you, this may help you. It's not because she doesn't think you're not capable when she doesn't trust you. It's because she is holding on tooth and nail to that voice inside of her that says there's nobody there for.

[Narrator]

You.

[Wife]

And you have to do it all alone. She's dying to let go of that voice, but she also has built an entire life around that voice. And so she is afraid that if she loosens it a little bit, the whole thing can dissolve on the spot. It's irrational, it's not real. But the fear is very real.

[Esther Perel]

And that I'm bad parent also.

[Wife]

Yes, yes, of course. Because you're trying to be the parent that your mother never was. You know, it's all that theme. So when you are talking to her and she doesn't trust you, don't start saying I'm capable. Just tell her you're not alone.

[Husband]

That's a great tip. I love that.

[Wife]

Do you understand? It's about talking to that part of her that is afraid to loosen this thing even a millimeter because her entire coping survival strategy is organized around this. This idea that if you. What was it? Don't take them the same amount of time in the park is going to make her be a bad mother. It's intense, it's extreme, it's debilitating. And it's not allowing her to go away with her friends to go see a movie to go with you to a party. She's drying up in her own well. And when you think she's controlling, which of course she is, because control is the mechanism with which she tries to protect this identity in your head, just think fear. Fear is not the word terror. Tell me, what has been your experience hearing all of this?

[Esther Perel]

Well, absolutely mind blowing. First of all, I can't believe it. It sounds so true to me. It rings like with every fiber of my body. I think that's what it is, you know, that's where it all comes from. So I'm shocked that I didn't see it myself, where it comes from. I'm shocked I didn't see how rigid that was. But I almost feel like I have a green card now. Like I'm not a bad mom if I do that, you know.

[Husband]

Oh, that you have like now some kind of permission or confirmation that you can take care of yourself.

[Esther Perel]

Mad mom.

[Husband]

Of course.

[Esther Perel]

It's so embarrassing. Makes me feel like I'm not intelligent.

[Husband]

Person, you know, like how could I.

[Esther Perel]

Not see that, put it together myself?

[Narrator]

It's always easier to see it in others.

[Wife]

And it's not that you didn't see it. It's that the part of you that made that vow a long time ago is organized around you not seeing it. Otherwise you're going to go off for a weekend and it has tried to convince you your entire life that one evening away is going to affect their entire future.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Wife]

And it is, first of all, inaccurate. Second of all, you may end up proving your mother wrong, but you may not do right by your kids. And my marriage probably Your marriage, that's a given. That is not a maybe. Here's the irony. This is the first time in the history of humankind that the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple. On the long list of what your kids need attending to, your relationship is huge because it actually will give them the family that you so much wanted them to have.

[Esther Perel]

It's the most important thing.

[Narrator]

This is actually not where the session ended. They had planned to go all together with the family because the children actually had accompanied them and were waiting the entire in another room. And the family had decided to go for lunch in the neighborhood where she used to work. And the suggestion was that after lunch, dad and the kids would do their thing in town, picking up on him being alone with the children in the city. But for her to go and do something of her own and especially to walk around in the old neighborhood where she used to work before she was married, when she still felt free and playful and partied a lot and had a very different connection of who she was then, what happened to them was actually quite interesting. And I invite you to listen to the follow up on my subscription on Apple Podcasts where I put all the follow ups of many of the sessions that we do. But in listening, listening to this session right now, as I arrive at the end, it's clear that I did a lot of work with her and less with him. I didn't focus on her because the issue was bigger on her side. I focused on her because I tend to go where I think there is greater flexibility and nimbleness for change. And I felt it whenever I would say something. I knew that she was loosening the knots that were tying her together. And so if she could shift, he would follow. This is in case you want to know a little bit about what goes in the mind of this particular couple's therapist.

[Esther Perel]

Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian AT Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.