You're Inching Me Out

Summary

Podcast Summary: "You're Inching Me Out"

Podcast Information

• Title: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
• Host/Author: Esther Perel Global Media
• Episode: You're Inching Me Out
• Release Date: October 2, 2024

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Introduction

In the episode titled "You're Inching Me Out," listeners are privy to a deeply personal and unscripted counseling session between two co-founders of a successful communications company. Despite the flourishing business, their personal and professional relationship has deteriorated over time. Esteemed psychotherapist Esther Perel navigates through their complex dynamics, uncovering underlying issues that threaten both their friendship and their enterprise.

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Background of the Relationship

The session features two co-founders who have been partners for thirteen years, building a successful business with a presence across multiple continents and coasts. Initially close friends from college, their collaboration led to significant professional achievements. However, as the business thrived, their personal relationship began to crumble, leading to persistent feelings of being undermined and marginalized.

• [01:05] Co-founder 1: "I think the sort of hilarious irony really is that for two people who run a communications company, we are both like drastically terrible at communicating."

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Core Issues Discussed

1. Communication Breakdown

   • The co-founders acknowledge their failure to communicate effectively, a critical flaw given their expertise in the communications field.
   • Their inability to discuss core issues has led to prolonged tension, with the relationship sinking despite the business's success.

2. Feelings of Undermining and Marginalization

   • [01:35] Co-founder 1: "The kind of the single most stressful thing in my working life, if not life, is the challenges with our relationship. I just, I feel continually undermined."
   • [21:12] Co-founder 1: "A company that I've loved and given my all... I just feel like my joy and desire to do it is just crushed, like, over and over."

3. Different Narratives and Perceptions

   • The co-founders have divergent views on past business decisions, particularly regarding the restructuring of their UK branch and the subsequent impact on their relationship.
   • [34:15] Co-founder 1: "I think it comes from a real desire that this was... just your company and that I wasn't part of it."

4. Emotional Disconnect

   • Over time, their friendship outside of work has waned, leading to loneliness and a sense of not being genuinely understood by each other.
   • [02:03] Co-founder 1: "There's no doubt that your emotional and relational dowry comes with you to work."

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Communication Styles and Upbringing

The session delves into how their respective upbringings influence their current communication barriers.

• Co-founder 2's Upbringing:

  • From an English father who seldom discussed emotions and a direct German mother.
  • [16:30] Co-founder 2: "My dad's English and didn't talk about emotions very much. And your mum? My mum. German. Very direct."

• Co-founder 1's Upbringing:

  • Grew up in a British family with a tendency to bottle up emotions.
  • [17:42] Co-founder 1: "Good old British bottling up."

These differing backgrounds contribute to their passive-aggressive behaviors and inability to express feelings openly.

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Counselor’s Interventions and Insights

Esther Perel employs various techniques to facilitate understanding and communication between the co-founders:

1. Active Listening and Reflection

   • Encourages each party to articulate and repeat what they hear from the other to ensure mutual understanding.
   • [06:47] Counselor: "What do you hear? Yeah, just repeat it."

2. Identifying Emotional Blocks

   • Highlights how unresolved emotions and past grievances prevent genuine dialogue.
   • [09:03] Counselor: "It's an awful thing. You build this thing, they put a slide up. You're not even in it. That's a clear feeling."

3. Addressing Passive-Aggressive Behaviors

   • Points out behaviors like withdrawal and subtle undermining as obstacles to resolution.
   • [17:17] Co-founder 2: "I withdraw. I'll just kind of go very quiet."

4. Encouraging Vulnerability

   • Urges both co-founders to express their true feelings and acknowledge each other’s pain.
   • [23:38] Co-founder 1: "Yeah. Shut up. Me shut up. Not you shut up."

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Key Quotes with Timestamps

• [01:05] Co-founder 1: "I think the sort of hilarious irony really is that for two people who run a communications company, we are both like drastically terrible at communicating."
• [21:12] Co-founder 1: "A company that I've loved and given my all... I just feel like my joy and desire to do it is just crushed, like, over and over."
• [34:15] Co-founder 1: "I think it comes from a real desire that this was... just your company and that I wasn't part of it."
• [46:20] Co-founder 1: "The tangible aspect of it is the sales and the profit that we're making in the UK that is extremely tangible."

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Emotional and Professional Consequences

The unresolved tensions have significant implications:

• Emotional Strain: Both founders experience heightened stress and unhappiness, impacting their personal well-being.
• Professional Impact: While the business remains profitable, the underlying issues threaten the company's long-term stability and the quality of leadership.
• Potential for Separation: The session hints at the possibility of parting ways professionally, though both are hesitant and conflicted about this outcome.

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Conclusion and Unresolved Tensions

The counseling session concludes without a clear resolution, highlighting the entrenched nature of the co-founders' conflicts. Their inability to move past blame and differing narratives leaves their relationship and business future uncertain.

• [53:23] Esther Perel: "There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us."

The episode underscores the complexity of intertwining personal and professional relationships and the challenges inherent in addressing longstanding emotional wounds within a business context.

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Final Thoughts

"You're Inching Me Out" offers a profound exploration of how personal dynamics can undermine professional success. Esther Perel adeptly guides the conversation, revealing the deep-seated issues that arise when friendship and business intersect. This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of communication and emotional transparency in sustaining both personal relationships and business partnerships.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

What you are about to hear is a classic session of Houzwork with Esther Perel. Houzwork is a one time unscripted counseling session focused on work for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names, employers and other identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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[Co-founder 1]

I think the sort of hilarious irony really is that for two people who run a communications company, we are both like drastically terrible at communicating.

[Counselor]

They had been together for 13 years as business partners, as close friends that I had met in college that stumbled upon this new idea that turned into a very successful business that is on a number of continents and bicoastal and the business is actually doing really well and the relationship is sinking.

[Co-founder 1]

The kind of the single most stressful thing in my working life, if not life, is the challenges with our relationship. I just, I feel continually undermined.

[Counselor]

The job has always been that place where I've been needed and I feel important.

[Co-founder 2]

A lot of the people that work.

[Co-founder 1]

For me are like an extension of my family.

[Counselor]

There's no doubt that your emotional and relational dowry comes with you to work.

[Esther Perel]

Imagine going to work every day in a really busy place and no one will make eye contact with you.

[Co-founder 2]

I mean, it feels like a breakup.

[Counselor]

It doesn't feel. It is. So how's work? Four years they've been sitting with this. And so the ask was big. It was a about just opening up the conversation, B about what actually needed to be talked about and C what was a potential resolution that they could both engage in. But the conversation was so hard for them that I understood why it took them four years. And it wasn't just hard for them, it was hard for me as well because they kept unconsciously saying we need to talk about this, but then did everything possible to not talk about this.

[Co-founder 2]

There's sort of two aspects to it for me. One is the relationship and then the other is the sort of the business and what we both our roles and what we both bring to the business. Yeah, I'd like to sort of be able to get to a point where we can have a kind of way of being able to.

[Counselor]

Which one keeps you awake at night?

[Co-founder 2]

I mean, a couple of months ago it was kind of quite bad.

[Counselor]

But which one, the business or the relationship?

[Co-founder 2]

Well, the business is fine, really. So I'd say it's probably.

[Counselor]

That's one thing you agree on, is that both of you are preoccupied by the fissures of your relationship.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah, I mean, I'd say, like this sort of. When I look at what we've achieved together and look at where we've come from, it seems. It's so sad that we can't see eye to eye. I think, you know, the times when we've been most aligned, I've been most happy in the business and I felt most sort of confident in myself as, as a. As someone operating the business and just generally, like in life, because, you know, business does flow into so many other aspects of the way that you feel about yourself and think about yourself. And I read. So yesterday, it was just by chance, I read that Carl Jung said, loneliness is not an absence of people, it's an absence of genuine understanding. And I was just like. Or be feeling genuinely understood. And I think if I could sort of put my finger on, like, a key fissure between the two of us, it's like, I don't. I haven't always felt supported because there's this. Because we. Because there is a fissure, because there was a challenge there in our relationship and which had been there for years, and it is.

[Counselor]

Name it.

[Co-founder 1]

I. It's getting quite big quite quickly, but.

[Counselor]

You'Re doing good.

[Co-founder 1]

The challenge, I think, is, is it.

[Counselor]

Okay that I, of course, be gps?

[Co-founder 1]

You can gps? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's probably just for the best. You know, throughout that entire period of building the company, you know, when we won lots of awards and things, you know, I was always really keen to make sure that we shared the stage together. And, you know, I feel like that you weren't quite as willing to share the stage with me and, like. And that led to some of the decision making that I, that, you know, so when you were like, look, you know, you have to let all these people go or you have to do this or that. It was, it. It wasn't necessarily coming, you know, even today, like, you know, looking at the marketing and, you know, I. I feel like you're quite sort of anti marketing. But part of the reason I think you're anti marketing, frankly, is because I think you think you see it as something that I'm doing. And so if we can kind of like, if it could, you know, if we can show that marketing fails as a thing for us to do, then that will somehow diminish me, you know, rather than. That was definitely the thing that we needed to do. Does that make sense?

[Counselor]

What do you hear? Yeah, just repeat it.

[Co-founder 2]

Okay.

[Counselor]

So that we get a sense. Because he said a lot.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah. So what I hear is that there's a. There's a kind of emotional response to a lot of the decisions that we've had to take as a business. For me, I kind of think.

[Counselor]

No, but before you.

[Co-founder 2]

Sorry.

[Counselor]

Rebuttal.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

What did you hear him say? He said something extremely important.

[Co-founder 2]

That it was about doing it together and sharing the stage. No.

[Counselor]

Yes. But that's not what. That's. Look, we tend to be able to repeat things quite easily when it's stuff we have no problem listening to. What's extraordinary is how hard it is. And generally we can probably handle 10 seconds, which is three sentences. But before you answer, you have got to just say, this is what I'm hearing. And then instead of shaking your head, you can say you heard a piece of it or that's part of it. But there's more. So that we first establish. I will tell you what I heard, but it's also to be checked. It's not because at this point, we have reached a place where there is a confusion between your disagreeing with my idea, with. With an idea, versus you're disagreeing with me. And it becomes essentialized. It's not about marketing. It's not about this or that. It ends up being about me. And I feel that on some level I'm undermined, and then I have to prove myself and I'm being tested. And if it's something that I want, by definition you won't want it. But not because of the idea, but because it's coming from me, and that's how the waters have gotten muddled. Is that.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

Okay. It's okay to say I don't. You know, I'm not sure I really understand what you're saying, but if you don't listen, it's because you're busy with the rebuttal.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

So you gotta slow it down and anchor yourself first and foremost into the listening. That's the essence of the communication. It's actually not the talking. It's the listening. He gave you the opening line, Right. There's a loneliness in not being understood. That in itself is a loneliness. And you are. Do you still see each other outside of work? Do you still have a friendship?

[Co-founder 1]

Sometimes a bit.

[Counselor]

Do you still talk about anything besides the shop?

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

Okay. Do you still go out just to hang and be with each other for the company of each other?

[Co-founder 2]

Well, we've lived in different places for five years.

[Counselor]

Yes. Do you still text each other stuff that is not about work as the way that you bring each other into each other's lives?

[Co-founder 2]

Not really.

[Co-founder 1]

Not really.

[Counselor]

Is that a loss? Do you care about it? Are you so fixated on the shop and the business that the friendship is no longer on the menu?

[Co-founder 2]

No. I mean, I'd quite like it there. I sort of would quite like to not have the business in the way and just be able to be friends, you know, outside of that, the thing.

[Co-founder 1]

That'S quite marked is like, we're lucky enough to have built a company of people who we get on really well with.

[Counselor]

No, no, I understood. The people in the company are rather happy. It's just the two co founders that are not particularly happy with each other. With each other. And at this point, they can't discuss an idea because an idea becomes the representation of a person. And when it becomes essentialized this way, you no longer know if you're discussing, I don't like the idea or I don't like you.

[Co-founder 2]

Right. And that's where, potentially, that's where I get very frustrated because so does he. Yeah.

[Counselor]

So first answer him. I mean, answer him doesn't mean argue with it. It's just repeat. Now that I said it, just repeat it again. What do you think he was talking about?

[Co-founder 2]

What did you hear that when I object to an idea, he sees that you see that as somehow a rejection of you or a way of sort of me somehow proving a point.

[Counselor]

For the first hour of this session, they've told me what they want to address and they've shown me how they will do anything possible never to talk about what they came to talk about. They avoid conflict, they avoid pain, they avoid the inevitable. They avoid having to face each other and say those things. To say, I don't want to continue with you and I'm actually actively trying to push you out. This is not an uncommon story among co founders in which one often may find that there is one person who's primary paradigm continues to be the relationship and the friendship, and the other one who's more mercenary and whose primary paradigm becomes business first. So after an hour, my frustration has been mounting and I feel for them because I realize that they're desperate to engage in a conversation and they have no idea how to do it. And they'll do anything not to do it, because it is about to show the sad sides and the not nice sides that each of them carries.

[Co-founder 1]

I mean, when we first set the company up, we talked all the time. I mean, like, just daily, several times, because we were always like, oh, we can do this and we can do that and we can do. You know. And I think as the business developed, you know, we just talk less. And then the less you talk, the less you sort of get that genuine level of communication.

[Counselor]

Yeah, it's like a relationship.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah. Who knew? Who knew right in the beginning.

[Counselor]

You don't stop.

[Co-founder 2]

I think also just, I think, kind of trying to unpick it a bit as well. Like that whole period in London in terms of letting people go, that's where I feel, like, let down by you in that. Like, it stopped becoming a partnership there because I was doing everything I could to try and support you and to help make these difficult decisions to the point where I actually came back and did some of it. But there was a kind of unwillingness to listen to those very practical suggestions and solutions. And that led to immense frustration on my side, which I know had an impact on a personal level. And that's kind of where it really.

[Co-founder 1]

I mean, that was extremely damaging. I think we just both have very different narratives about, like, what happened from when you moved to the US on. I think we came here, it was, you know, admittedly, like, you. It was something that you really drove. And, you know, we moved over here and we basically gutted the UK business to make New York into the biggest opportunity that we could.

[Counselor]

You said just. You just said something that I want to pick up on for a sec. We have different narratives. Give me just a sense what kind of relationship cultures you come from and you grew up in. When it comes to talking about difficult subjects, being direct with people that are close to you, managing conflict, expressing certain feelings or not, or other feelings, but not those. What kind of relationship cultures did you grow up in? What's your. I call this the relational dowry. The stuff that we bring with us to work and does not stay at the door.

[Co-founder 2]

I mean, for me, we didn't talk about feelings a lot at home. I mean, it was very sort of loving environment and, you know, very happy with my upbringing, but there wasn't. My dad's English and didn't talk about emotions very much. And your mum? My mum. German. Very direct. So I sort of got some of that directness, I think, from her.

[Counselor]

How did people handle disagreement, Conflict?

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah. We're not a sort of big like talkie, emotional family. I'm not good at vocalizing my feelings. I know that I've been told and I think that then I have very, I think, high expectations of myself and therefore other people and can not verbalize that kind of stuff. So I think there are. I recognize there are times where I just expect people to get things and expect them to, you know. Yeah. Just have high expectations. And I think that then when that doesn't happen, I then get annoyed.

[Counselor]

And how do you show annoyance?

[Co-founder 2]

Passive aggressive, I think.

[Counselor]

What's your.

[Co-founder 2]

I withdraw. I'll just kind of go very quiet. Yeah, I normally just do that and just keep it. Keep it inside.

[Co-founder 1]

Good old British bottling up.

[Counselor]

Yeah. But there's an art to passive aggressive. So what's your particular craft?

[Co-founder 2]

I think just.

[Counselor]

I can ask you too. You know the guy, you've known him many years.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

And you may be better off at knowing each other than yourself.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah, probably. I mean, very similar vibe for me too. Either rolling your eyes or I find that you lick your teeth to me quite a lot. I find that quite. Which is a very sort of animalistic sort of fight mechanism. Not necessarily. I don't know if you notice that, but you do it to me all the time. You know, I think the sort of hilarious irony really is that for two people who run a communications company, we are both like drastically terrible at communicating, which is probably why we're sitting here.

[Counselor]

Well. Or the reverse. The fact that you're here. I always take as. There's a longing underneath, there's a wish for something better. You may not know how to do it, but you at least have a desire to want to do it. And that speaks volumes. So I don't think that the fact that you're here is because you're worse than others. Quite to the contrary. But I do want to know how does conflict get managed? How does appreciation gets expressed? How does disagreement come out? How does sadness get. I mean, there's a wide vocabulary. So what's the vocabulary you come with.

[Co-founder 1]

Bottle it up and don't deal with it and then go to the publisher. Probably why I'm still really cut up about my dad dying when I was 10. Not that has anything to do with this really, but like inability to deal with challenges or emotional challenges. Sorry. Is an issue. I don't think any of us deal particularly well with communicating unhappiness.

[Counselor]

And that's where you are. You are rather unhappy with your relationship with your co founder and your friend and he. You are rather unhappy as well. So that is actually the thing that you're in the midst of at this moment, not the direction of the company. That is actually unfolding quite well. And part of what you're doing about your unhappiness is you're fortifying the troops. You're building a case for leaving. But of course, with the fantasy that he would do the leaving, so you don't even have to take responsibility for that. That's passive aggressive.

[Co-founder 2]

Yep.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

Right. And he feels it, and he even says it. You know, you're inching me out. So far, so good.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

All right, continue.

[Co-founder 1]

I just. I feel continually undermined. We had a thing on Friday where we have a deck that we send out.

[Counselor]

I want you to try and do that thing that you just said is so hard.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

I'll be with you. I'll help you.

[Co-founder 1]

Thank you. I just feel continually marginalized. A company that I've loved and given my all and given countless late nights and weekends and hours and hours and weeks of lost sleep. I just feel like my joy and desire to do it is just crushed, like, over and over. And every time we're on a call, and, I mean, it doesn't even necessarily need to be wearing. Go off on one. Like, quite often you'll just roll your eyes at the things I say or, you know, like, finding that the deck with, like, would. Might, like, this is the moment when.

[Counselor]

You want to check if he's listening.

[Co-founder 1]

With my name excluded. The reason I got so upset about that on Friday was because, like, that was just. It was just the clearest possible manifestation of the way I feel. So that was. That was just. It was a slide of the company, and it had everyone in the company on it. Except I just. I literally just didn't feature. So it was like a sort of. It was a hierarchy of the company with one person missing and the one person missing with me. And that just, you know, now that hurt. That hurt. But it hurt because I've had that feeling for years. You know, that first year when we entered loads of. We went to these big awards.

[Counselor]

But you see, you're thinking and you're oozing feeling.

[Co-founder 1]

Okay.

[Counselor]

You tell him that hurt.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

And now just shut up.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

Sit with it.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

The problem is that you talk to flatten whatever you feel.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

And you go numb. And when you go numb, he goes numb. Yes.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah. Fair. That is fair. I guess, you know, that's it.

[Counselor]

Now go back to him. Sit and let him react.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

I get It. It's an awful thing. You build this thing, they put a slide up. You're not even in it.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

That's a clear feeling.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

It sucks to be edited out. You feel excluded and hurt, period.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah. Shut up. Me shut up. Not you shut up.

[Counselor]

I know. I know. It's not shut up. It's. You don't allow yourself to feel it.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

And it hurts. It feels awful. But by continuing to talk, you don't allow yourself to actually feel or you.

[Co-founder 1]

Dilute what you're saying.

[Counselor]

That's right.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Counselor]

I realized in listening to the session that I actually ended up doing with him what he was doing with his partner. I was trying to help him to actually just sit for a moment with the load of emotion that was coming up as he was describing how he had been rendered invisible. But instead of saying, just sit with it for a moment. Where in your body are you feeling this? And then just watch the wave come over him and just say, stay with this. Let it come out. I ended up saying to him, you're not letting yourself feel, rather than helping him to actually feel it and let the other person see the consequences of his actions. So I missed it.

[Co-founder 1]

That's his mom.

[Counselor]

So the only thing, you turn to him and you say, do you get it? Do you understand we're not solving the business problem at this point? So we solve. We're just in this conversation. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[Co-founder 1]

You understand what I'm saying?

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah. Yeah. What? Like, how would you like it to be?

[Co-founder 1]

That's a very good question. I guess I'd like to just put a lot of that animosity behind us, you know, like, there's a lot of water under the bridge. I understand that. I want us. I want to feel like you've got my back.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah. Which I totally understand. And for me, it's about kind of, I guess, finding a way back to the first few years of the company and how that worked. But part of that is around the roles, I think, and that's where I kind of keep. Keep coming back to.

[Counselor]

I listened to him say, I want you to have my back. I want to feel that you still care about me. I want to feel like we're still in this together. And the other one answers from the place of structurally, I think we need to redefine the roles here in the company. But emotionally, he kind of is gone. And this discrepancy is something that I really have witnessed so many times in romantic relationships when one person is still fighting for the relationship. And the other person basically just came to drop this one off and said, see you later. I'm on my way out. And it is basically, you cannot work on a relationship if one person is gone. You need two people. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us.

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[Counselor]

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[Co-founder 2]

Yeah, I get it. Like, from a. From a sort of emotionally supportive perspective, I definitely can do more. Yeah.

[Counselor]

Do you think there is validity in what he describes when he says, I feel undermined, you don't have my back. You translate this as he wants me to agree with him. And so your next thought is, how can I have his back and not agree with him? The only way he will feel supported is if I say yes to what he says and I don't agree with it.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

I'd speak up.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, because I think that kind of is. You know, I think from a work perspective, I do have doubts. You know, that's kind of where it comes from. I just kind of do sort of worry about the role and what you're going to be doing and where that's best placed. And that's where I think, to a certain extent, I don't have your back. You know, from a business perspective, obviously, from a. You know, I don't want you to be happy. And I'm. Yeah, kind of happy to. Yeah, I see what you mean, though. I sort of say, yes, I'm happy to help you get that, but I am kind of saying on my terms. So I do recognize that that's not the right way to do it, really. But what. So in terms of kind of supporting but not agreeing, what does that look like?

[Counselor]

I think the first thing you may want to say to him is, I don't know how to do it with you. You know, part of the stock is that at this point, if you don't agree with him, he can't hear what you say, either because he instantly feels rejected or undermined. So he's into his wound, he's into being hurt. He's not able to actually hear that. Maybe there's a different point of view. Everything is muddled. A thought is a feeling and a feeling is hidden. By the way, if you ever say, I feel that what follows is never a feeling. What follows is a thought. The injunction that moves us into a thought, and generally it's a thought about what the other person is doing. I feel hurt is a failing. I feel that you're undermining me is a statement about him.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah, it's just clumsy language, a new.

[Counselor]

Vocabulary that you want to learn. Somebody in the company is going to have to do it anyway because these are normal feelings in the company. Being hurt, feeling ejected, feeling excluded, feeling not included. All of these things, you know. Yes. In a polarized system, every person basically ends up defending themselves. And there is a lack of accountability. That just says what you are describing about me. I did do that. Said there is more. When you did it, I didn't react in the same way or I totally see that I almost tanked the ship in this situation. Everyone is only referencing half of the story, and it's the other person who then highlights. The part that each one is not acknowledging that's what happens in a polarized system is that everyone is actually saying the part that they wish the other one was saying but is not. Meanwhile, I don't know anything about this slide, but that's hostile, it's aggressive. Is somebody owning that?

[Co-founder 2]

I mean, it wasn't me that put that slide together, but I guess I could have. Well, you did bring it up about six months ago, and I did create a new slide with all of us on there, and I have a version of it which I've been sending out to clients which does have you on it.

[Co-founder 1]

So that.

[Co-founder 2]

So it's. So that was not cut and dry.

[Co-founder 1]

It was just the clearest possible manifestation of something which I've raised in the past. You know, it's not. It's also not like it was a mistake that happened and then it was rectified and, you know, all was fine and dandy. It was a mistake that happened. I raised it and sort of said, there is another person in the company. We agreed to fix it, and then six months later, it's not been fixed. You know, I'm not saying that's like that is directly your fault at all, but it's just. It's. It's a manifestation of something that's far more so, I feel, on a basic level, on every single call that we do with the management team and every single document that gets sent out, every single email, you know, slightly overstating it, but, like, I just. It's just. It's a background feeling that is always there.

[Co-founder 2]

What. Where do you think that comes from?

[Co-founder 1]

I think it comes from good.

[Counselor]

It was very good.

[Co-founder 1]

I think it comes from a real desire that this was. Is just your company and that I wasn't part of it.

[Co-founder 2]

I mean, that's very interesting, but kind of that's. I've never had that feeling. And I've. I've been in a position where I felt completely like I have no role. And, you know, sails to the wind. You know, in the early years, a lot, you know, you were the guy that had the filmmaking ability. What was I doing? I was just sort of hanging around.

[Co-founder 1]

But I supported you. But I supported you then. Now the shoe is on the other foot. It's not even that I'm not getting that support back. I feel like actively you're using the fact that I am not quite such a defined role to marginalize me.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah, I mean, I understand why you would feel that. My kind of response is it's come from a sort of business reason. Like there's sort of.

[Co-founder 1]

But back then, I could have gone, you know what? I don't see the value that you're bringing. You know, like, there's such a discrepancy in the value that we're bringing to the company. Not only was I making the film, I was also a new business director. Right. So I was making all the calls to all the agencies that then blew the company up. Right. I could at any point then have gone, what exactly is he doing? And I didn't. I stood by you and I always made sure that we shared the podium. And when we had the challenges in the UK and you were over here at board level across, you know, you used the fact that we had low sales in the UK to completely commandeer the control of the board to ostracize me. And we know companies go through sales cycles where sometimes you're up, sometimes you're down. We had a sales squeeze last year in New York, which we came through. We had challenges with the Office refit. I stood by you like I could have used any of those things as leverage, but I didn't.

[Co-founder 2]

I get it. I understand the sort of. I know it was difficult and it felt very hard at the time, but the way the UK business was structured at the time was, that's not what he's talking about. I know, I know.

[Counselor]

So don't know.

[Co-founder 2]

But from my point of view, there was a very strong business case to the point where that business nearly folded. And if I hadn't come in and made those decisions at that time, it probably would have done. And it wasn't about some sort of personal power struggle. It was about trying to save the UK business.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah. I mean, over the period from when you left to now, we let 27 people go in the UK to turn that business around. Right. We had already let a number of people go before that. You came over and basically just said, right, we have to do it right now. Right.

[Co-founder 2]

I'd waited. I'd seen it coming for a while.

[Counselor]

Anyway, if you go in this direction, you will do an interesting comparative study of the narratives and that's irrelevant because you're not busy trying to really understand each other's narratives. When one person keeps repeating the same thing over and over again, it's easy to get frustrated, say, can you finally talk about something else? But the fact is that we repeat because we are still waiting for the other person to actually acknowledge that which we are saying. So we're holding up the flag not just because we are stubborn and a one note person, but because we are signaling to the other person. I need to know that you see what I see before I can move on to the next thing. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

[Ocean Spray Sponsor]

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[Counselor]

He's talking about a very particular thing, which is, regardless of the cycles of the business, have always put us first. And I experience you putting the business first basically as a betrayal. And you're saying, I value our relationship, but not at the expense of the whole business. And I needed to do certain things which you still haven't recognized because you're busy with your wounds.

[Co-founder 2]

I think that's fair. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Counselor]

All Right, let's move there then. Otherwise you will leave and you'll continue what you're doing. What he needs to know is, have you given up on us? Has the business really become more important? Then we will negotiate. Either he gets a certain role or you get bought out. Or do you have a partnership agreement or. None. No, nothing.

[Co-founder 2]

Probably should get that one.

[Counselor]

And how old were you when you started this whole thing?

[Co-founder 2]

26.

[Counselor]

So you were the friend. Sort of. Okay. You know, he's still into that. You know, you're my friend, you're my buddy, you're my partner. And we do this together and we waver and we wave all the ups and downs together. And you're into the, you know, the business comes first and you're in my way, basically.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment.

[Counselor]

Yeah, you're in my way and he knows it. You want to make the decisions. You want to be the CEO. You want to. You know, you're actually no longer talking in partnership terms and he's in a completely different storyboard.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah, I mean, I think that is true. And that is the way I see it. I see it as a business. I see my responsibility towards the board, the shareholders, the employees, the clients. I don't think the company kind of defines everything about me. I see it as a. It's become amazing thing. But I don't think it's going to be the only thing I'll ever do.

[Co-founder 1]

I hear you. I don't agree with a classification of this difference that I don't care about the company, of course, and I'm not interested in the success of the like. Well, sorry that I put the relationship first. The reason I think the relationship is important is because without the relationship, the company tears itself to pieces. And that's why I'm willing to overlook things which, on the face of it, seem extremely damaging to the company. Yeah, you know, it's not some sort of like, oh, you know, this is our amazing, exciting adventure and, you know, we have to stick together and, you know, damn the consequences as long as we're together. It's that the value to the company that we are able to offer is drastically enhanced when you combine our two skill sets.

[Counselor]

She no longer thinks that. No, I know you think that, but he no longer thinks that. That's where you actually are parting. Yeah, he hasn't thought that for a while. And because of that, you are spinning your wheels. I am saying it for you because you're not being direct. And, you know, if you leave here, but you have to be.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Counselor]

At this point, you have to be out of sheer respect for him.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah. No, you're right.

[Counselor]

Because otherwise you will leave more convinced with what you already came in.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

And you're going to continue. Do more of what you did in a more blatant way and it's hostile.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

Maybe he should continue the company, since for you, you know, if you sell cars or if you sell movies, it's not fundamentally different. You like the selling, you like the struct, like the business piece. And so, you know, who knows whose company it will be. Or maybe he does take a certain role or he takes a new division that is not about corporate or whatever you choose to do, but you. First and foremost, it's a terribly painful thing to do it like this, but it's the respectful thing to do.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

And it's why you came.

[Co-founder 2]

It is.

[Counselor]

Let him do it. Just say that whatever you're going to say. I don't know what. But.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah, I mean, I think we have had the conversation, but it would be useful to. For both of us to really think about what we want to do and. Yeah. And what that looks like.

[Co-founder 1]

I agree. I think, if I may, the reason you've lost so much confidence in me is that you really struggle almost to the point of not seeing the benefits and the things that I've done for the company. You know, we've got this absolutely thriving culture in the uk. Right. That was because. Well, in part, I'm amply supported by the rest of the team. I made turning the culture around in that business the number one priority and we've done that. And it is absolutely thriving. And it's thriving to the point where neither of the founders need to be there. Now, you have real difficulty attributing that to anything that I did. But, like, who else did it?

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah, I do. I mean, yeah, just the sort of value conversation is often on quite intangible things. And I just, I think, you know, with my sort of business head on. Yeah. I do find that difficult to sort of put a value on because it's, you know, it's often the stuff that's kind of out there a little bit. And.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah, I mean, I guess that, you know, the tangible. The tangible aspect of it is the sales and the profit that we're making in the uk that is extremely tangible. I mean, the other thing is, you know, our Brooklyn refit, which you oversaw, when ended up costing the last count, $350,000, which, you know, we originally signed off $80,000 to do that now, that was entirely on your watch. Right. You know, if we're being completely harsh and, you know, and the business does really come first, there could have been quite a different outcome from that.

[Co-founder 2]

Sure. You know, I'm happy to, like, again, I don't want to sort of get into the specifics and the context around that, because it's not really about that, but I'm happy to put my case forward and take it to the board or, you know, if we can't agree it between ourselves and. No, just as in, I'm happy with my response to it. I think that's what I mean.

[Counselor]

My response is this. I'm not going to argue with what he says about London. The fact is, I hold him responsible for London when it doesn't go well on his side. He's responsible when it doesn't go well on my side. There are a lot of other circumstances. Mine is circumstantial. His is personal.

[Co-founder 2]

Classic. Yeah.

[Counselor]

You want to leave or you want to part? Why do you need to destroy him first as a way to justify your wish to go? I mean, you are entitled to go. For whatever reason that you choose, you're entitled to go. Then you decide how you want to divide and part and all of that, but you're entitled to the. To want that and you don't want him to leave. So you're groping, I guess. Groping is not.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

[Counselor]

I bring imagery from other relationships.

[Co-founder 1]

Grasping, grasping, grasping.

[Counselor]

That's actually different. Go ahead.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah, look. Yeah, I recognize that. So I can be very difficult in that. In that sense, that's got to be really hard.

[Counselor]

You're locked because you have a certain desire for whatever reason, and everything gets measured vis a vis that. I mean, if I have an wish for you is that you would leave with one new thought, but it's not happening. What's happening is a reinforcement of every thought you already have. It brings up culture, you say, once again, he brings up culture. We've already talked about culture. Him and his culture. You know, it doesn't occur to you to say, of course you had something to do with it, because there probably is something he had to do with it. Maybe not as much as you think, but you're not going to give him an inch, right?

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah. That's fair.

[Counselor]

Because you're pissed. I don't know why you're pissed, but you're pissed. You're in an auntie and he knows it. So he's trying to justify himself. He's trying to Prove to you that he's capable of something. And the more he's trying to prove and the more you think he's pathetic, but you don't realize that you're putting him down the whole time because you give him nothing. You know, you're entitled to say, I don't want to continue together. That's a fair wish. But what you're doing is aggressive. It's hostile.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

You know, I had something to do with it. And you say, well, I'm not going to get into it because, you know, I have a very different understanding of what really actually happened. And, you know, there is no value to this. And this is. What the hell is this? Because I'm sure that tomorrow you're going to make a speech at your company about culture and how important it is because everybody does these days, so you must be doing that too. But when he brings it up, you think it's woo, woo. Yeah, that's what I mean. Woo, woo. You're the hardcore. You're the, you know, you're the hard skills. You're the hardcore. You're the number. But when it's your numbers, then it's circumstantial. And then you say, I'm happy to bring the board, you know, to do what? Arbitration. Which story is the board going to believe, should not have. You know, when you say you lost trust in me or you. It's what's striking to me more is to watch how you lost trust in you.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

I mean, it's painful to watch.

[Co-founder 1]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

I can only imagine that it painful to experience it.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah. You absolutely correctly identify. I just get in this kind of like mindset of like, this is the business, this is how things should be run. This is how we, you know, resolve problems.

[Counselor]

But you have a confirmation bias. Everything you hear or everything he says gets interpreted vis a vis.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

Your main idea.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

It's like you never change perspective. Au contraire. It gets more and more rigid.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah, no, yeah, for sure.

[Counselor]

Okay. You're stuck.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Counselor]

With that. You're stuck.

[Co-founder 2]

Yeah.

[Counselor]

At the end of the session, there was no master game plan of how they were going to proceed henceforward. But so much had been said that they had been avoiding for four years from the acknowledgement publicly about the difference between one holding the business and one holding the relationship, to neither one of them being able to actually acknowledge anything that the other one is saying about them and therefore being stuck in highly differentiated and entrenched narratives to blaming the other for specific mistakes and blaming circumstances for their own mistakes. And so while I said I wished you had left with something and I'm not sure we're living with anything new, I'm not so sure that they didn't live with anything new.

[Esther Perel]

You just heard a classic session of Houzz Work with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherparel.com Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estheraparell.com.

[Ocean Spray Sponsor]

Support for the show comes from Ocean Spray Friendsgiving is all about good people, good vibes and good food. Enjoy some easygoing company and some easy appetizers and refreshments with that delectable cranberry flavor that just hits different this time of year. You can try a cranberry Cream cheese dip, turkey and cranberry sliders, or even cranberry Glazed wings. And you can round out your meal with an Ocean Spray Juice Spiced mocktail. Head to your local store to buy your Ocean Spray cranberry products for the best friendsgiving.