Michael Horton (4:49)

Well, I would say that, you know, Lutheran and Reformed churches are completely united on this. I would include Anglican in that Reformed camp. I think you went too, Justin, that the Word creates the church. So the Roman Catholic view is that the Church creates the Word. It was the church that existed before the Word. And the church decided what parts of the written word would be canonical and so forth. And really the authority comes from the church. But churches of the Reformation believe that the church is the daughter of the Word, not the mother. The Word creates it everywhere in the Book of Acts, you see, and the word of God spread, being synonymous with. And the church expanded and grew. And when it expanded and grew, elders were appointed. Paul, in fact, said to Timothy, that's why I left you behind in Crete, so that you may finish what I started by appointing elders in every town. And so I like your term, Justin. Downstream, the word of God is upstream. The word of God creates the church. And so government is not unnecessary, government is not unimportant. Government is very important for the church. But it's not what creates the church. It's not the church because it has the right government. It should have the right government because it's the church.

Walter Strickland (6:33)

I would say that as well, Mike. Baptists would say that the church is not a single institutional body, but it is one because there's this unity that is. It's emerging from Christ. And so you mentioned Bob and Justin. I wanted to get that amen in there from the Baptist corner as well.

Bob Hiller (6:54)

I think it's worth noting too that you're welcome. What makes you part of the church then is not institutional association, it's faith. So if the Word creates the church, it's also the word Romans 10 that creates faith in our heart. So is the church is all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Now the denominations exist because we're messy people and we don't. We have difficulties in things we've got to work through. The divisions are significant and they are real. But in a certain sense the church exists wherever the Word is faithfully preached and the sacraments are properly administered and the people of God are created by that word. So anyone who has faith in Jesus is the true church. Not just because you sit under the Pope or something like that.

Michael Horton (7:43)

It's also on the evangelical side. Doesn't reside in the holiness of the members.

Bob Hiller (7:48)

Correct?

Michael Horton (7:49)

Correct. It's not because this group has decided to follow Jesus and surrender all and they are really committed and their Holy Spirit baptized and so forth. It's because the Word is preached and the sacraments are administered that people are spirit filled and people are witnesses to Christ and are deciding to follow Him. But it's not because of their decision. It's because of God's decision in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Justin Holcomb (8:21)

Mike, in chapter I believe it's 25 of the Christian Faith on the Attributes of the Church. You earlier were talking about how church word relate to each other and you had this. It sounded like you were talking about downward from the ascended Christ. That's what's happening. But you also use the language of. They're countering that to a hierarchical model which directs the focus of unity and catholicity upward. That's I think page 857 from the Christian faith. Not asking for details and specificity on exactly what that means. Because we're going to talk about models and structure later. But can you just say a few sentences about this upward and downward image with regard to the church?

Michael Horton (9:06)

Well, I don't know if this is what you're referring to Justin, but it's certainly important for us to talk about anyway. So Ephesians 4. Very familiar passage to many people where the apostle Paul says, based on the Ascension. So this is the same passage where he says, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, and Father of all, who is over all, through all, and in all. When he ascended on high, he led a host of captives and gave gifts to men. There he is reworking Psalm 68, which has the law as the gift, and the people are bearing gifts to God. Paul reworks that in the light of the ascension. Says when he ascended on high, he led a host of captives and gave gifts to man. In saying he ascended, what does it mean but that he also descended in the lower regions of the earth? He ascended to fill all things. And he gave the apostles, the prophets and evangelists, the shepherds and teachers. And then in the ESV it says to equip the saints for the work of ministry. But that's a controversial translation. Actually, the Greek word there is for fixing or fitting, like getting a cast on your broken leg. That fits with the next phrase, for building up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, and so forth, not tossed anymore back and forth by all the winds of doctrine. In other words, what he's saying is we are being put together, knit together by the work of the ministry, which belongs to the offices he's just mentioned. And so the people, the gifts that he is giving as the ascended king, are pastors, teachers, and evangelists, so that we all will attain to that unity. So in other words, it's not the ministers sort of in themselves, it's the office of word and sacrament. As long as that's going forth, Christ is preaching. Paul says that in Romans 10, wherever the word is present, Christ is present, speaking and handing out the gifts by the power of the Holy Spirit through his ministers. And that's good news.

Justin Holcomb (11:43)

And I just found the passage in Christian Faith. It is page 857, and it's the summary of the you're teaching on Ephesians 4 that you just did. So good guess. This is just for listeners. If you want to go grab the book and look at it. It is chapter 25. Whereas a hierarchical model directs the focus of unity and catholicity upward and inward from the lower rungs of the ecclesiastical ladder to a single earthly head or to a college of bishops, a Presbyterian model directs the focus downward from the ascended Christ and outward in the power of his spirit to the church and the ends of the earth. And so I think in. As an Anglican bishop, I agree with that, too. So I get what you're saying, but I was going more for the upward, downward. That was spectacular. Before we move on to each one and come back to you, Mike, on the Reformed Presbyterian model, let's say some really clear things that we all agree on, on unity on church. So I think we'd all say at least three things. The proclamation of scripture and the gospel and the proper administration of sacraments or ordinances. Christians being discipled in this church. Discipline. It doesn't mean like just discipline, but like the actual, you know, church life and discipleship and doxology and how that comes together. And we'd all say Nicene Creed stuff and Apostles Creed, like one holy Catholic apostolic church. And probably all of our denominations would sign off on those creeds. If, you know, Walter, you can nuance that a little bit if you need to. I mean, not. Not I'm saying, but like, are we all on board on. On those basic structures of unity?

Bob Hiller (13:24)

Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I. For. For our church. If you're going to be a pastor in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, which is what I'm a part of, you're going to sign off on the creeds. You're going to say, this is. This is what we believe, teach and confess. And, and I think we would all kind of say, and Justin, I think this is what you're after. If you're denying the creeds, there's a significant problem, a congregation who says, and I'm not talking about someone who says, we don't have creeds. We have Christ only. And then you start asking him questions about the creeds and like, oh, yeah, of course we believe that. What I'm talking about is people who crassly deny the incarnation of Christ, the triune nature of God, you know, these sorts of things. If you don't believe those, you're outside of the church. You're not a part of the church at all if you're denying what the church believes, teaches and confesses. So, yeah, I think those would be the places where at least unity begins.

Michael Horton (14:16)

Right. One Lord, one faith, one baptism, not one pastor.

Walter Strickland (14:22)

Yeah, I would agree. And I do think it's helpful, just to, for the sake of clarity, to reference what Justin was talking about. In 2024, there was a motion to adopt the Nicene Creed as part of the official doctrinal statement of the sbc. And that that motion failed. It wasn't necessarily because People denied the content of the creed, but to add more. More statements of faith to the Baptist faith, the message is what was being. Is the controversy. So there's a lot of internal dynamics that caused that and that that was a particular move to go after the affirmation of eternal, functional subordination. But a lot of this deep theological significance was sort of lost in all of it. And it basically became, you know, more of a banter about is the Bible enough, which is an unfortunate development and all that. So that's why Justin mentioned that there's

Justin Holcomb (15:17)

a lot to say.

Michael Horton (15:18)

Can I ask you, Walter, Can I. Can I ask you not. Not to get political about it. I'm just curious that. Not wanting to add anything to Scripture, but the Baptist faith and message itself is a confession, right?

Walter Strickland (15:30)

Of sorts, it certainly is. And Southern Baptists are glad to affirm it. I mean, in all of our churches, even though they're autonomous, they do have confessions of their own. But there seems to be some unfortunate allergy to adding historic theological affirmations there, even though the content of those affirmations are affirmed by Baptist churches across the board. And so I'm trying to avoid the longer explanation that would take 45 minutes. But there's just some historical baggage there that I think we get caught up on that sort of disallows that kind of a thing. So hopefully that's sufficient. Mike?

Michael Horton (16:11)

Oh, yeah, that's helpful. I would also want to add, so that people don't think that we believe that creeds have any independent authority, normative authority. The reason why we confess the Nicene Creed, the ecumenical Creeds, and our own confessions and catechisms is not because they're additions to Scripture, but because we believe they are summaries of Scripture. In other words, because they're biblical. Only because they're biblical do they have any authority.

Walter Strickland (16:46)

And, Mike, I think that's. If we can put it in a nutshell, that's where a lot of Baptists get tripped up, because even at my own dinner table, we were reciting the Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed, and as a part of our family worship.

Michael Horton (16:59)

And.

Walter Strickland (16:59)

And then my daughter asked why we did this. I said, well, it'd be hard to just go up to somebody and tell them, recite the whole scripture, all 66 books to them. You have to start with some sort of summary of it, because you don't have, you know, 90 hours to rattle off the entire canon to them. And so she goes, oh, that's actually helpful, you know, and so all to say, insofar as they are faithful summaries of scripture is insofar as they're authoritative and. And I think that's what my fellow Baptists need to hear.

Justin Holcomb (17:30)

All right, so we did all the fun, lovey, unity, kumbaya stuff. That's great. And we're not dog on the Pope

Bob Hiller (17:39)

just a little bit. We all agree we don't like the Pope. At least we got that going for us.

Justin Holcomb (17:45)

Sure.

Bob Hiller (17:47)

We're united in that.

Michael Horton (17:48)

And I think we all agree that the church to some extent is visible. I mean, yeah, when I say I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church, that's more an article of faith than it is of sight. I don't see a church that is perfectly one holy, catholic and apostolic. I don't see Jesus prayer fulfilled yet, perfectly. But I know the mediator can't have unanswered prayer. And Paul says we have unity already. We've been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, redeemed by Christ. We have unity in Christ, but maintain that visible unity. And I think that where we would differ not only with our Roman Catholic friends, but also many evangelicals is that we. We don't just believe the church is invisible. The church is a bunch of regenerate believers. And you don't have to even go to the church. You don't have to be a member of the church. You don't have to. You can read your Bible by yourself at home. That's perhaps an exaggeration, but not much of one. That's also something that I think we would all agree we need to avoid.

Bob Hiller (19:10)

When we talk about visible and invisible in our church, we're asking two different questions. And maybe you guys do this too. I don't know. But we're asking who the. If we speak of the invisible church, we're asking, who is the church? Like, I can't look at your heart and know if you truly believe or not. I can't. I can't see that. So this church, in a sense, is an article of faith, as you said, Mike. But when we talk about the visible church, what we are talking about is where is the church? So it's where the gospel is proclaimed and the sacraments are administered and the word of God does not return void. So you know where the church is when you hear. Hear the word proclaimed and you see the people of God gathering around the word. Now, I can't look at each individual and say guaranteed in, guaranteed out. But I can look and say they're baptized, they receive the sacrament, they participate in the prayer life of the church. They're supporting things like you can see the outward manifestations of the visible church, which is the word and sacrament impacting people. But I have no ability to read someone's heart. That's the spirit's job.

Justin Holcomb (20:13)

This is probably okay, now we're done with the Kumbaya stuff or we're going to keep on Kumbaya.

Michael Horton (20:17)

Well, no, this is, this, this is probably maybe a good jumping off point into our polemics, our international. Yeah. So I think this is great.

Bob Hiller (20:29)

That was what I was going for.

Michael Horton (20:30)

Yeah. This is where poor Walter is going to be the target of this.

Walter Strickland (20:35)

Yeah, I was going to say I'm in the hot seat right now. Yeah.

Michael Horton (20:38)

Well, no, it's just that congregationalism, so not just baptism, but. So I'm talking about the Calvinistic Baptists who came out of congregationalism. The congregational polity that they share is a visible saints polity, they call it. You know, it's a pure gathered church model where the church really is, we would say, more visible than it actually is, that it is not filled with wheat and tares. It is not a mixed body, elect and non elect. Only the regenerate can be members are true members of the visible church. And we would say all who make a credible profession of faith and their children are members of the visible church. And that isn't just a little picky difference. I think. I think it really goes down to the thing of does the church arise out of the decision of the many, or is the church the result of the decision of the triune God who works through the Word and the sacraments and in whomever he will? We don't know who the elect are. We don't know who's regenerate. But we do know, as Bob says, who has made a credible profession of faith. Which means that they are repentant and trust in Christ.

Walter Strickland (22:23)

Yeah.

Michael Horton (22:23)

Not that we know that they do, but that they profess this.

Walter Strickland (22:27)

I think this is definitely a helpful jumping off place. And I think if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, Mike, you're saying that it seems as if congregationalism is based upon the decision of the individual. But congregationalists that I've sort of trafficked around, they would say it's based upon the new covenant in that those who are a part of participating in the new covenant of Christ, then because it's based upon Christ, those people will then identify themselves with a local congregation. So I understand where you're starting from, but I would take it a step backward and say, well, it's actually grounded in Christ. And then, of course, those who are more reformed in their soteriology would say, well, that was before the foundations of time. And I would affirm that because it's in Scripture. I would say it is in the Lord's salvific work, which is established before the foundations of time. The New Covenant is established in Christ. And those who participate in the New Covenant are then identifying themselves with the local manifestation of a New Covenant Church. And so that's kind of the way that I would articulate that. I just take a step back from the decision of the individual.

Justin Holcomb (23:39)

All right, I'm going to adjudicate for you all.

Michael Horton (23:41)

But would you say, Walter, that everybody who is in the New Covenant is necessarily regenerate?

Walter Strickland (23:50)

Everyone who comes to Christ for salvation are those who are part of the New Covenant. And they are regenerate, which is why we would say. We wouldn't say. And their children as well. We would disciple our children into understanding the realities of the New Covenant, welcoming them into this New Covenant people that Christ has made possible by his death and resurrection. And I think that's the slight difference there. And then those people, if they're being obedient, they'll join a local church where the word is preached and where the ordinances or sacraments are done.

Michael Horton (24:30)

Thanks.

Justin Holcomb (24:30)

All right, I'm going to jump in. We're going to have this conversation in a few more minutes, because what I want to do list.

Walter Strickland (24:39)

We just can't help ourselves.

Justin Holcomb (24:40)

Sorry, Justin, can I bishop this conversation real quick? No, it is, but that's a good setup, because what we're going to do is we're going to look at each of our four traditions and give each one of us a few minutes to talk about them and then actually engage with one another, just like we just did. So you guys just modeled exactly what I want us to do in a second. But we're going to look at, like. So what we're looking for is give some.

Michael Horton (25:02)

That's a nice way of saying, yeah, we did it too soon. Okay, sorry.

Justin Holcomb (25:08)

That's my way of saying, stop. It's my fault. You couldn't help it. You couldn't help it. Which is good when you're like, I. That's the whole thing. What we're doing at Whitehorse Inn is having. It's. It's. It's a theological conversation. And so I'm letting it go as a conversation, but I need to rein it in because we got some things we need to do. So so what's and we're going to start with Mike, for Presbyterian Church government. So we're and for all of us, the question is, what's going to be the biblical rationale for that tradition? What verses would you go to to underscore that ecclesiology? And how does church government function in your denomination, your tradition? How is someone ordained? That might be something we want to explore. Or how does the church rule on doctrinal matters? And what does examination and accountability look like? So with all of that, Mike, give an overview of why Presbyterian Church government.

Michael Horton (26:05)

Well, first of all, we have what's called the regulative principle, which is that scripture not only gives us broad general principles, but sometimes in some places it actually gives us rules. And when it does, we can't add to them, whether it's in personal morality or it's in ecclesiology, church government, discipline. We can only do what God has commanded. It's not just that we can't do what God has forbidden, but we can't add elements to the worship of God and to the Christian life and to the government of the church that God hasn't laid on the conscience of his people. So with that said, in the Reformed and here, when I say Reformed, I mean Reformed Presbyterian and Presbyterian traditions,

Justin Holcomb (27:06)

we

Michael Horton (27:06)

hold that episkopos and presbuteros are interchangeable. And even the ancient church, Father Jerome, said that this was the New Testament practice, that they're interchangeable. And you find that in the various pastoral epistles where they're used interchangeably. Peter, for example, calls himself a fellow presbyter with the other presbyters he's writing to. So all pastors are presbyters, but not all presbyters are pastors. So you have pastors who preach, teach, and administer the sacraments. You have elders who rule in charge of the spiritual care of the people, and then you have the deacons who care for the material needs of the church. You not only have that at the local level in the New Testament, but you have it in broader connections. So it's not just that at that local level, pastors and elders minister together as one body, but they come together in broader associations, broader connections. You see the word church church used in multiple ways in the Book of Acts for the whole church everywhere or one individual congregation. So it's not just that the local congregation is a church. Also, when the church meets in broader assemblies, which would say are presbyteries or classes, and then in the broadest assemblies called for Presbyterians General assembly, for Reformed synod, General Synod. They're the same thing, just different terms. When we do that, we're following the pattern of Acts 15, where the apostles and elders gathered together to settle a very important issue of gentile inclusion. And what's interesting is on the one hand, you don't have a Petrine or Peter centered decision being made. Peter barely speaks at this synod. James is the one who gives the. The overwhelming speech in favor of gentile inclusion based on Old Testament passages being fulfilled now. So it's not Peter, it's the apostles and the elders. If church government required a parody of pastors and elders making decisions together when the apostles were still alive, certainly could have spoken ex cathedra, then surely that model is no less important for us today. But on the other hand, you don't have the hierarchy, the Petrine hierarchy at the same time. In the next chapter, chapter 16, we read that Paul and Silas and the others now took the decisions, which are called dogmata. First time dogma is used in the New Testament. They took the dogmas decided at the council to all churches for observance, not for pious advice, but to be observed in all the churches. Well, now, doesn't that sound top down? And sometimes I hear people say Presbyterianism is hierarchical and so forth. No. Why? Because all of the churches that were now to receive as dogmas, those decisions were represented there. I mean, their representatives contributed to making that decision. And so it's a federal kind of model where you have representation and all of the churches were represented at that synod. That synod then makes a decision and it all comes back to the local churches to be observed.

Justin Holcomb (31:27)

Real quick, what is like church membership? How is membership participation kind of harkening back to the conversation with Walter or someone a member, because they're baptized. I know the answers on these. I'm just putting the ball on the tee for you.

Michael Horton (31:43)

Yeah, thanks, Justin.

Justin Holcomb (31:45)

Want to make sure you didn't. You're like looking at me like you don't know this.

Walter Strickland (31:49)

You're fired, Justin.

Justin Holcomb (31:50)

Yes,

Michael Horton (31:54)

well, I think one of the best places to look at that, we could go to our confessions and catechisms. But our liturgies, where the rubber really meets the road, we say in our baptism of infants liturgies, we thank the Lord for bringing this child into communion with Christ. We say in the liturgy, you know, the whole congregation pledges its support and involvement in this child's life because he's a Christian or she's a Christian, a little lamb of God. And do we know that that person is or will be regenerate no, that's none of our business. We can't know anybody in the church is regenerate. We have no authority to figure out who's regenerate. What we can do is say that person has received God's sign and seal of his promise of the gift of Christ in the covenant of grace, and is therefore a member of the church by right of. Because that child is a, is a child of, not because the child is innocent. We clearly say that in the liturgy too. Child of wrath is the rest by nature. But God has taken this child into his arms as a child of believing parents.

Justin Holcomb (33:22)

And I have one. Just quick follow up. Thank you. And I want you guys to dive in. Also. You made the distinction because you said earlier that, you know, Presbyterian Episcopals are just synonymous. But then there's also another distinction of elder pastor. Can you just, can you just repeat the distinction you were making again?

Michael Horton (33:42)

Sure, I, I, So sometimes we call this a three office view, but it's,

Justin Holcomb (33:50)

that's why I'm asking it.

Michael Horton (33:51)

Yeah. Because Paul, for instance, says that elders are worthy of honor, especially those who labor in preaching. So there is a distinction between elders who preach, who are ordained to that office, who have been trained for that work, who are called to it by Christ through his church, and elders who are laymen. And that's one of the strengths, I think, of Presbyterian government, that laymen run the church, pastors, minister. But really laymen are the rulers, if you will, in the church. And deacons serve the, the material needs. Pastors can't make all the decisions lay people make. All this is not hierarchical. This is not top down.

Justin Holcomb (34:55)

And the reason I'm asking is because many people would have heard the language of ruling elder and teaching elder. And this is where people would get that distinction. I think PCA does that. I don't know other denominations. I know the PCA does. So the ruling elder, the teaching elders are the, the usually the ones that are doing all of the preaching, teaching the staff. Yeah.

Michael Horton (35:18)

And in the continental reform tradition, we just say pastors, elders and deacons.

Bob Hiller (35:22)

Can I ask, and if you answered this, forgive me, how does the national church body work? How is their fellowship among congregations across the country or the world? I don't know how you guys do it, but, but how does that operate?

Justin Holcomb (35:35)

And is that General assembly? I want to piggyback on that because Mike mentioned General Assembly.

Bob Hiller (35:41)

Okay.

Justin Holcomb (35:41)

Is that. I heard the language and I had that question too.

Michael Horton (35:45)

Yeah. You know, this comes out of Christendom. It comes out of national churches where you have a national synod or general assembly. Actually, if we're going to follow the model of Acts 15, we really should have. As our broadest assembly, we should have ecumenical assemblies, Catholic assemblies, little C there. And I think that's a weakness of our practice that we don't do that enough. Good night. In a globalized age like ours, especially today, I think that we really should do that.

Bob Hiller (36:23)

Now.

Michael Horton (36:23)

We do have. I served on a committee for our little denomination on international relations with other reformed churches. We do have very cordial and deliberate relationships with lots of churches around the world. And there is also the national association of Reformed and Presbyterian Churches, Napark, where in this country also we have very cordial relations. It's not denominational unity. When I say I believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church, I'm not saying I believe in one denomination. My denomination is the true church. I'm saying I'm in a true church and there are other true churches out there. And I want to get to know. I want to. We already are in fellowship with them objectively. I want to preserve the bond of peace. I want to extend it. I want to deepen our relationship. Churches should be working towards ecumenical unity all the time.

Justin Holcomb (37:26)

I love hearing that because I'm thinking people are having their minds blown that Horton's calling for the ecumenical. Because usually ecumenism gets thrown under the bus for, like, you know, being wishy washy. And I just love.

Michael Horton (37:38)

Well, the reformers. The reformers called for an ecumenical council. Calvin begged. Did the emperor be a nursing father like Constantine and Charlemagne.

Walter Strickland (37:52)

Wow. I love it.

Michael Horton (37:53)

Stand up to the Pope. Yeah.

Justin Holcomb (37:55)

I want to ask another quick question just for language, because that made me think about, like. And I'll get to mine later on, but we have a thing called a vestry, and I'll explain that. But in. In other Presbyterian settings or reform settings, Presbyterian government, you have a thing called a session. And I know there's other language. So what's a session? What does it do? And what are the other terms for if. In. In. If it's not session.

Michael Horton (38:20)

Yeah. And session just means they're, you know, they're sitting to make decisions.

Justin Holcomb (38:27)

In our language, those are elders. The secession of the elders.

Michael Horton (38:29)

Just the elders, not the deacons. Yes, but the elders and the pastor. In continental reform circles, we call it the consistory, but it's the same thing. And then the broader group is the classus or presbytery, and then broadest is general assembly or synod.

Walter Strickland (38:50)

Okay. You know, that's very helpful. I had some of those mixed up in my mind. So thanks for the clarification.

Michael Horton (38:55)

I think it's really important that there have been some Presbyterians in particular, historically, not so much today, but there are a few who say that because Christ instituted Presbyterian government, a church isn't a church unless it has it. And that was especially in the throes of the 1640s, the Westminster assembly versus the Congregationalists and the Episcopalians. That wasn't the way it was with the Reformed on the continent, except for Beza on the continent. Calvin. Calvin and Cranmer, for example, worked together well. So also Melanchthon worked together to try to create one united Reformation church, one evangelical church body. He asked him, Cranmer asked him, could we have bishops? What if this new denomination were Episcopal? And Calvin said, I would cross a thousand seas to make that happen. Calvin didn't believe that the Bible taught well the equality of ministers. No, it's because. And he says this because Christ more clearly taught love. He loves the unity of the church more than he likes Presbyterian government. And I think that we really have to have. We really have to take that to heart today.

Justin Holcomb (40:29)

Yeah, and. And you have. I mean, that. That's part of the whole conversational theology. And the way you've done this, Mike, is that that's what you've done for. That's why you've had these conversations with Lutherans and Anglicans and Baptists is because of that. Because you've taken Calvin seriously and I've always admired that about you. So I'm glad you took that extra time.

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Justin Holcomb (41:39)

That didn't leave room for Congregationalists. So, Walter, you go.

Walter Strickland (41:45)

Well, here we go.

Justin Holcomb (41:47)

No, you guys were having a conversation. Oh, for sure. Same thing. What are some of the passages? How do some of these things work out? Just run with it.

Walter Strickland (41:55)

I'll just start with the most basic thing. Government by congregation is what this is. And so in this form of government, members of a local congregation are the final human authority for an individual local church. And so this is grounded in the Baptist distinctive of a believer's congregation. And it's based upon the fact that every person who's a member of the church is filled with the Holy Spirit. And it sort of insists that like that spirit filled group of people that comprises a church is less likely to be swayed by heresy or abusive activity or something like that than an individual. So as you can sort of take it, the next step would be that the model also involves local church autonomy because there's not the formal body that's higher than the church that's going to engage or interfere with the inner workings of the church, but it doesn't exclude cooperation. So if you will look at even like the Southern Baptist Convention, it's the individual sort of autonomous local churches independently choosing to cooperate at an associational level, which is usually like a region. Like for example, my region we have in the Raleigh Durham area, we have an association there. Then there's a state level and then there's the national level, which gets the most press, which is the Southern Baptist Convention. So while every individual church can choose to opt into those, and we had this conversation before with the misunderstandings of the Reformation traditions, but the denomination or the association can then choose to exclude an individual church if that church is deemed to be running against the sort of doctrinal convictions that have been set forth that all the churches in that association would work, would work with. So the congregation is a final authority, but it chooses to cooperate. So there's some passages I think are very helpful here. I know we'll talk about church discipline a little bit later, but Matthew 18:17, I'll just focus in on that one. And I choose this verse because many Baptists look to this verse to say that the church was the final court of discipline in here. And so the verse reads this way. It says, if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church is how Baptists put that emphasis or the italics there. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, it says, let him be to you as a Gentile or a tax collector. So there seems to be that emphasis on that local congregation having some authority there. And if you look to Acts chapter six, there's the congregation seems to be selecting the first deacons. And I'll look at verse three in particular. It says, therefore, brothers, pick out from amongst yourselves seven men of good repute, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom, whom we'll appoint to this duty. So it just seems again that the church is doing that work of selecting its deacons and then in Acts 13, verses 2 and 3, selecting and sending out missionaries. This is Paul and Barnabas. I'll just read those verses and we can sort of talk and ask questions about it in a second. So while they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, set apart from me Paul and Barnabas for the work to which I have called. Then after fasting, they prayed and they laid their hands on them and sent them off. So it wasn't just this random group of people selecting and sending. It was a Holy Spirit laying it on the hearts of people, and then they sent them. And then Acts 15, there's this question of resolution and the question of doctrine, and so all that to say. Those are some passages that many Congregationalists, Baptists look to. To say, you know, it seems as if the congregation has a significant role in running the church. And so what that means is that the church is, if you look at, like a Baptist church org chart, there's a congregation, then there's the elders, and then there's, you know, deacons and so forth that serve the congregation. So at the end of the day, that congregation is going to watch the life and doctrine of individuals to see if they fulfill those biblical requirements to be a leader in the church, either pastor or elder. We use those. In my church, we use those synonymously or deacon. And then they will then put them into the office and then willingly submit to those leaders because they themselves have watched their life and their doctrine and voted to put them in that place. And so there's also passages where the congregation is also watching the doctrine and the life of actual elders and then even taking them out of office is 1 Timothy, verse 5, 1920. And so, you know, it talks about bringing a charge against an elder. So that's some of the basics of Congregationalism. There's a lot to be said there. More. But I'll let you guys ask some questions and I'll fill in the blanks later.

Bob Hiller (46:59)

Okay, this is where I'm a little confused and just you'll have to help clarify for me. But this is. This is my own ignorance. You talked earlier about the role of the Nicene Creed. There was a vote taken whether or not the Southern Baptist Convention would adopt the Nicene Creed for a congregation. Why does that matter if I'm a congregation and I say, we want to start confessing the Creed every Sunday and say that this is what we believe, teach, and confess. How does the convention at all have a right to tell me not to do that or to say, like, that's not appropriate for people with the SBC title.

Walter Strickland (47:31)

Oh, certainly.

Bob Hiller (47:31)

Does the question make sense?

Walter Strickland (47:32)

Yeah, that's a fantastic question. So during Advent, every year, my church switches from the Apostles Creed, it's fighting the Apostles Creed every week, to the Nicene Creed every week.

Bob Hiller (47:43)

So do we, Walter, that's great. Look at that.

Walter Strickland (47:49)

So the vote at the national level wasn't to determine if an autonomous local church could recite the Nicene Creed. What that was going to be about was, are we going to adopt the Nicene Creed into the official doctrinal statement that we all would have to ascribe to to remain in the convention? And so I know that sounds like it's splitting hairs, but it actually is. It's a very different thing.

Bob Hiller (48:15)

So that does clarify it for me. That's very helpful.

Walter Strickland (48:19)

Thank you. So, and again, the vast majority, there might be some language that some in the convention might want to hear defined, but I would say the vast majority of, if not all, SBC churches would affirm it. But the question is, is it to what degree do we have to sort of hang our hat on it for cooperation? And the issue is what Mike and I were talking about before is more of an issue of there's some Baptists, I think, assume that and wrongly so that there's some sort of organic authority within the creed itself.

Bob Hiller (48:50)

Oh, interesting.

Walter Strickland (48:51)

And I think that's the issue amongst Southern Baptists.

Michael Horton (48:55)

Got it, Walter. What would materially be the. Or practically be the difference between the convention excommunicating a local church for, let's say, denying the Trinity and a connectional government church, you know, Episcopal or Presbyterian excommunicating a church for the same heresy. What would be the difference there?

Walter Strickland (49:27)

Yeah, I would say the those who would vote on that would be the representatives sent to the national convention that represent the churches. And so those are called messengers. So you always hear, you know, in every June and you know, every news outlet says that the messengers of the Southern Baptist Convention, which the messengers are sent by individual churches. And so those churches that are brought up on these charges of having transgressed the doctrinal statement or whatever it might be, those churches are then brought to the messengers, and the messengers vote. And that's how it sort of maintains its congregational ethos, because it's not given up to the top rung to the president of the sbc, but it's given back to the churches to vote on who is in right participation.

Michael Horton (50:14)

That sounds a lot to me like in practice, at least what we would do. The representatives coming to the synod, and the synod would collectively make a decision and send it back to the local churches. Would the local church then have to accept what the convention decided?

Walter Strickland (50:34)

Yeah, because that church is no longer in good fellowship with the convention in very practical ways. They're not able to send their missionaries through the North American Mission Board or the International Mission Board. There's certain resources that the Southern Baptists pull, subsidizing seminaries, other sort of combined missiological efforts that people wouldn't be able to participate in because they've chosen not to participate in the sort of shared doctrinal affirmations of the convention.

Justin Holcomb (51:06)

My question about membership that I asked Mike and I know you talked about it previously in the conversation, but it could be very brief. But how do Congregationalist churches think through church membership since that's such an important. I mean, if there's so much authority or significance, who is a member would seem very relevant.

Walter Strickland (51:28)

Oh, it's very relevant. I mean, and this is one of the regenerate church membership is a Baptist distinctive. So this is so, you know, and this is where Mike and I would, Presbyterians and Baptists would really have some healthy conversation. But just to sort of state it straight away, somebody who is a made a credible profession of faith in this New Covenant family that Christ has established, they are then upon their credible profession of faith are brought into and made a member of a local church. And so, for example, in my church, my wife and I have been members of our church based upon our profession of faith and our affirmation of our doctrinal statement and so forth, willing to submit to our leadership. Those things are, it's really the core of it is that sort of credible profession of faith. But then entering into our polity, entering into our philosophy of ministry, those things are really secondary, but are particular for our local church. So my wife and I have been members for 12 and a half years or so. But just recently my daughter, who has gone through our membership process, which is really lets the church know, here's our doctrine, here's how we do things, this is why scripturally we are who we are. And then she, you know, based upon her profession of faith, she made that public through baptism. And of course, for us, we are Credo Baptist. So her affirmation of Christ's death and resurrection for the remission of her sins was made public through that, you know, baptism. And then at that point she now becomes a member of this local church that her profession was made in front of. And so that's. That's how membership works at many Baptist churches, really most Baptist churches, and I say many because there's that autonomy there. There might be some nuances that are slightly different.

Justin Holcomb (53:23)

All right, cool. Should we move toward Anglicanism?

Bob Hiller (53:27)

Let's do Anglicanism. Yeah.

Justin Holcomb (53:29)

All right. So the big idea, I think, going back to what Mike said about, and I get this from Richard Bauckham and will make this article, it's called the New Testament Episcopacy. His basic point is that people often read the New Testament in two different ways. As raw data for reconstructing history and as scripture that gives the church norms. And if you confuse the two, then you can have some problems. And so what I'm not arguing is, hey, I've got some great New Testament proof texts that teach exactly what church structure would look like. Where Mike was saying the regulative principle, most Anglicans would say, hey, we're not trying to say, you know, bishops are just apostles. And some do, but that's not the way that the Anglican tradition has. Cranmer has really talked about it that much and others forward. So let me just start with that, is that Anglicans aren't saying, hey, the New Testament is mandated this church structure, but allows for the plausibility and possibility because the big idea is that Christ is giving himself through word and sacrament in a called ordered, connected, accountable pastoral ministry. So later episcopal forms may be wise, prudent developments that serve the church's unity in the apostolic teaching without ever grounding the gospel. And so the big idea is the New Testament. This is what Bauckham says allows for the possibility for this. So we have lay deacon, presbyter and bishop in Episcopos. And he goes through in that article, and I'm not going to summarize the whole thing, but his big idea is that because I want to talk about more than just bishops because of what we talked about with Mike and Calvin and all that. But his big idea is that a straightforward reading of the New Testament. You see, the earliest churches were led by local leaders, elders with the overlapping term overseer, Episcopal pastor, shepherd. And their role was pastoral oversight exercised as servant authority, especially in teaching and safeguarding the gospel for the good of the flock. And he says, don't pit spiritual gifts against church office. You know, some gifts, especially pastoral oversight, need to be publicly recognized and given a stable, accountable form for the health of the church. That's his angle. But he says what happened was after the apostles, the church increasingly emphasized one bishop per city pattern and leadership. And why apostolic secession Which Michael Ramsey said, this is about the teaching in the ministry, not so much the genealogy of it, the archaeological. And so he makes a distinction between the archaeological and the evangelical apostolicity. But Bauckham points to Irenaeus and says that this whole bishop per city type of approach. He's not saying it's because the New Testament requires a monarchical bishop. And so he argues that once the apostles were gone, the church needed an obvious traceable public continuity and apostolic teaching along with the writings. It's not countering the Scriptures to answer the rival kind of secret tradition claims and preserve unity. So there's a historic reason for this. Mike was talking about Jerome, and so Irenaeus was someone we can look at who hints about this. Ignatius of Antioch is the cleanest early witness to a settled threefold pattern of bishop, presbyter, deacon. And even then, the point is, okay, this is plausible. This is not mandated. Some of the Scriptures that people would look at is Acts 1:6. Just noticing the apostles were exercising foundational supra, local oversight, a Jerusalem council. And again, James functioning as a leading figure among the Jerusalem elders. And the passage doesn't explicitly define him as a bishop. No one's not claiming that, even if later traditions read it that way. You know, Acts 20, verses 17 and 28, elders were called overseers, episcopal, showing some fluidity toward the later distinction. Titus 1:5 and 1:7. Titus appoints elders city by city with delegated oversight, similar to what bishops ended up doing. Again, I'm not claiming that that's what he was doing. It was an appointing bishops. There's other passages. But again, when you come down to the distinction that Bauckham is making, that's helpful. What I want to kind of lay out is we have a local church. So I'm the bishop of a diocese. And so diocese is a regional area, just like a synod or a presbytery. And so we have, I think, 79, 80 churches. We're merging two churches together that meet in the same building. And so they have a presbyter priest, but it's Old English for presbyter. And sometimes they have deacons. Not all churches have deacons. And then a lot of lay leadership is the vestry are elected lay leaders who have fiduciary responsibility. And when there's not a clergy person there, so not a presbyter there, they're the authority that they work with me. And so you have local churches and with laity leading a significant part and with some deacons, then you have a diocese. And my role as Bishop is the chief pastor. That's the whole thing is I'm chief pastor of pastors and churches. And by my ordination the questions are, will you guard the faith, unity and discipline of the church? Will you provide for the administration of the sacraments? Will you ordain people and lead the liturgy? Like I have to give approval for things that are not in the prayer book and how things get done and oversight on that. Our region is divided into five deaneries, so kind of sub regional within that. And then we have an annual diocesan convention where we have resolutions and canons are proposed and amendments to the canons. We worship together. And so I as a bishop, my role is to pastor the pastors and also I oversee the discernment process and liturgy. And so that's a good place. Kind of double click on ordination as an example. Someone comes up from within a church, their minister will say, I think you might be called. And they come up from the church. Then they apply to the diocese. I have a group that oversees discernment with me and then they have a representative from the diocese. They go back to the church and do a parish discernment committee. They come back to the diocese and do a diocesan discernment. I, the bishop has sole authority on what kind of their formation is, where they would go to seminary and formation. And so that's one place where I have authority. But for the rest of the time, there's a lot of other people involved in this. And then they go back to the church to be signed off on. Once the formation in seminary is done, I give them a theological examination and then it goes back and forth. It's like a ping pong of local church diocese. And everyone has to sign off all along the way, which is pretty interesting. It's not a matter of me just kind of going around, Shazam. And then, then I go around placing them or something. I can't even. Once a rector is in a church, they have their own authority in that church. They have a lot of authority.

Michael Horton (61:00)

Rector as pastor. For people who might not know the

Justin Holcomb (61:02)

light lingo, rector is the yes, that's helpful is the pastor. And it's really cool when you do a celebration of new ministry. My job in that service is I hand them water. And I'm sure this is other traditions. And I say, help me baptize people in this place. And so it's the partnership of ministry there. And then our diastus, a pool of water.

Walter Strickland (61:22)

But you know, it would be, well,

Justin Holcomb (61:25)

this is so much water, Walter. So much the default preference for The Anglican tradition is actually immersion.

Michael Horton (61:31)

Hey, yeah, we're not. We're not against it. It's. It's adiaphora for us.

Justin Holcomb (61:37)

Yep. Yeah, yeah, that's our. That's our preference, but no one does it. This is supposed to

Michael Horton (61:46)

excommunicated, but it's adiaphora.

Walter Strickland (61:47)

Yeah. So just. I know this is a side note, but historically, Baptists haven't put as much emphasis on a single mode as we contemporary Baptists have done. So. Anyway, but that's another conversation. So mode of baptism is one that seems to be a sticking point all around the table.

Justin Holcomb (62:04)

Yeah. Then the Episcopal church, and there's 42 provinces within the Anglican Communion worldwide. The Episcopal Church is one of those 42. You have, you know, the Church in Canada, Anglican Church in Canada and other places. And the Episcopal church actually includes 20. I think it's 22 nations. It's not just the United States, it's not the national church, it's the Episcopal Church, which includes Honduras and, I believe, Columbia. I mean, there's a whole. Haiti, Dominican Republic, Cuba, and a whole host of others. And that body, they meet. They have a General Convention every three years. The General Convention is where a lot of the resolutions and amendments and liturgical things would change. And you have this bicameral. You have a House of Deputies, which have. And this is where you get the bishop's authority. You have the House of Deputies, which have anyone who is priest or deacon and laity. So each diocese has equal number of clergy and lay representatives from their diocese. And then the House of Bishops are just all the bishops. And so if something comes through, it needs to be approved by both the House of Deputies. In the House of Bishops, no one has sole authority just to get something done. So you actually need agreement between the two houses for something to shift. And that meets every three years. And then you have the Anglican Communion, which are 42 autonomous churches that are right now trying to figure out how they're bound together. Historically, that's been through what's called the instruments of unity, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lambeth Conference, where all the bishops around the world get together, the Anglican Consultative Council and the primates meeting. Primates are the presiding bishops of every one of those 42 churches. And so there's just all these different ways of structures of trying to blend and weave together. I want to read a quote. This is from George David Cummins, who was 1822-1876, American Anglican Bishop and founder of the Reformed Epistle Episcopal Church. There is no evidence from Scripture that the Apostles established the episcopate as an order in the ministry distinct from and superior in rank to the Presbyterian. If there is to be found any trace of episcopacy in the New Testament, it is only as an office exercised by one who was himself a fellow presbyter, commissioned or set apart for the exercise of such powers as were rendered necessary by the exigencies of the church and for the promotion of its well being by a system of general oversight and superintendence. So I like reading that along with Bauckham to help give a direction of how our structure what it looks like. And then I already mentioned Michael Ramsey. There's a book called the Gospel and the Catholic Church and another one he wrote called the Anglican Spirit where he talks about apostolic secession is more than a chain of persons, highlighting continuity is what he's talking about of apostolic teaching and continuity of apostolic function which is preaching, governing and ordaining. So it's preaching, teaching, governing, ordaining. The apostolic succession as a mere chain of persons is what he's trying to argue against. I think I should probably stop there because that was a chunk of time and see what last. There's a. It's a gospel normed apostolicity and it's in service of the Word, not vice versa. That's the point that Mike was making early on about the. There's not an archaeological dimension. This is the evangelicality. And then the other ones I could quote if you want to go into church history, you could look at one Clement, late first century Didache and Jerome in the fourth and fifth century. There's some fun conversations about. So if people want to dive in later and it's just important to acknowledge this is what Anglicans do is look at the New Testament overlap of bishop, overseer and elder and the early witnesses of Clement did aque Jerome support a gradual shift toward some type of episcopacy by custom, not arranged by the Lord. I think that's the quote from Jerome. This is not arranged. We're not claiming this is given by Jesus and instituted. But they also most Anglicans wouldn't look at scripture and then say that's the regulative principle for church structure. They would say no, no, those are the principles that we teach from Scripture and we kind of run with those with how that needs to work out in local settings is for the most part how Anglicans would talk about it.

Michael Horton (66:33)

I'll stop there since we're supposed to be polemical.

Justin Holcomb (66:36)

Just, you know, I'm not trying to be polemical Mike.

Michael Horton (66:39)

No, you're not. How things are being done because we love each other so much. I turn to First Clement and this is, I think, the earliest post apostolic letter. I often turn to post to First Clement for the Presbyterian view because on the one hand, he rejects Walter's position that explicitly mentions Walter. In fact, I was like, oh, Walter, the situation there. And he's writing from Rome. He's writing as the moderator or representative pen pal from the Church of Rome to other churches. And he is writing on behalf of the Presbyterian Rome to the presbytery in Corinth. But the problem is the Presbyterian Corinth doesn't exist anymore because the lay people overthrew it. And Clement says that that violates the rule of the Lord, that the congregation can't overthrow the presbytery. Only a larger group of presbyters can discipline a presbytery. And so on that hand. But on the other hand, he doesn't mention bishops. The whole focus is on. Apparently there weren't bishops in Corinth because his whole focus was on the presbyters being overthrown and mistreated.

Justin Holcomb (68:09)

Yeah, and I was not citing him for bishops. I actually was citing him because I read him from you. But what I'm citing, people would look at one Clement, didache, Jerome, but for that it is the appointing of leaders, often in pairs of bishop, overseer and deacons. And you use them to show early church valued public order and recognized offices. But not necessarily a single bishop. I'm not arguing for a single bishop over presbyters in every place. I'm just saying that you see some fluidity of how this is playing out in the, in the first first century

Michael Horton (68:45)

is the whole point there, the plausibility.

Justin Holcomb (68:47)

But Walter has a bigger problem.

Walter Strickland (68:49)

Yeah, I was going to say that I do, I do have much to say. But we're not talking about me. We're talking about Justin. So let's let it be noted. Let the record show.

Justin Holcomb (69:01)

Let me end with this on the Anglican tradition. This is about. I want everyone to see how clear Jesus Christ and the Gospel are to what we're called. And this is what happens, is what our prayer book says about lay people, all baptized people are called to make Christ known as Savior and Lord. I love that because it's. Again, it's the Christians, deacons. This is what it says about deacons in our prayer book on page five. 43. You are to make Christ in his redemptive love known by word and example to those among whom you live, work and worship. So make Christ and his redemptive love known. And then, priests, it says, you are to preach, to declare God's forgiveness to penitent sinners, to pronounce God's blessing and to share in the administration of holy baptism. Baptism and the mysteries of Christ's body and blood. And then bishops proclaiming Christ's resurrection and interpreting the gospel and testifying to Christ's sovereignty as Lord of Lords and King of Kings. And so what's fun is that in all of those four places, you have Jesus Christ's gospel are at the core of what that calling is. And so the gospel centrality is. What's just beautiful about these is it's not so much the office, it is, what lane are you in? And we see these as lanes going in the same Gospel Jesus direction. But let's stop there. It's time to turn to Bob. We want to make sure we leave room for his tradition, which is the foundation of all of ours. Right, Bob?

Bob Hiller (70:21)

Well, yes. It's the New Testament view, so. Of course it is. Yeah.

Walter Strickland (70:27)

I was going more historically.

Michael Horton (70:28)

I thought you guys said it was adiaphora.

Bob Hiller (70:30)

It is. In fact, Actually, what Justin said I thought was quite helpful. We would view ecclesiology is adiaphora, though not all adiaphora are equal. We would not explain that word. Yeah, things neither commanded nor forbidden in Scripture. And so we don't believe there's a commanded church structure within the pages of the New Testament, though there are ways to do it better. And so there's. This has been a big issue throughout the history of the church. So the Reformation happens, and the bishops are refusing to ordain pastors in Lutheran regions. And so the Lutherans are trying to figure out, well, what do we do? Where do we get our pastors? And Melanchthon dives in, and he does a great job, if you want to. I'm terrible on ecclesiology, so two resources, and then I'll do my best. First, the Power and Primacy of the Pope in our Book of Concord by Philip Melanchthon. Just tremendous read. Very Melanchthon at his most polemical, which isn't saying much, but still pretty good. The other one is a book called the Church by Kurt Marquardt. The Church by Kurt Marquardt. Excellent, excellent read on this. And if you can find the article, another one, the Office of Holy Ministry by Norman Nagel. Nonetheless, they realize, where do we get our pastors? Well, it's from the congregation. The congregation has the right to call its own pastor why? Because the role of the pastor is to exercise the office of the keys. And we're going to talk about that in a later episode. But that is to forgive.

Justin Holcomb (72:01)

Can I just jump in there real quick? This is interesting because in our tradition, the local church calls their pastor. I can veto it as a bishop, a bishop can veto it, but they call their pastor, and there's a partnership that takes place there. So I didn't know that. That's the same way. It happens in the Lutheran Church, too. So the Lutheran church calls the pastor.

Bob Hiller (72:19)

It's interesting, Justin, because the way. So here's how we'll say it. We'll say, all right, the job of the Christ gives the keys to the church. The church calls their pastor. But it shouldn't be just a congregation by itself. The whole church needs to be in on this. So one of the things our confessions say is that a pastor is made a pastor. No one is allowed to preach or teach, I should say, without being rightly called or without an orderly calling or something like this. And so here's the track we say it's typically this examination, however, that's going to work that stuff out right now in our church body. That's through the seminary. Congregation raises them up, send them to seminary, they approve. Then they receive a call to a congregation. And then the other pastors come along to validate this or certify this with ordination and the laying on of hands. Now, the laying out of hands is not sacramental. It's not even necessarily required. But we do believe that you should have the other pastors there to sort of give approval and to say, like, we're in this together. So they have the clergy support, they have the congregation together. And I'll tell you what, if you've never been to an ordination service, it is about one of the most. I got to think of it this way, for the congregation, it has to be one of the most beautiful experiences you'll have in your church. And for the local pastors who are there, it's the most terrifying experience because they keep hearing the things they were supposed to be be doing all along. And it's what they're accountable to God for. It's fantastic. But so the church exists for the sake of proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ. And pastors are called to be in the office of the ministry for the sake of the priesthood of all believers. So we have the priesthood of believers who make the church from within that priesthood. Certain men are called, qualified men are called to be pastors in Those churches, that's basically our ecclesiology. It all has to do with preaching the gospel. It all has to do with making sure we have somebody in this situation to preach. Now, how do you order that on a national level? How do those congregations get along with each other? This is sporadic throughout the history of Lutheranism. You used to have state churches. Well, this came back to bite us in Germany. And this is how the Missouri Senate gets started, when you had the Prussian Union and they were trying to impose Calvinism onto the Lutheran churches. And I'm sure that's about the worst thing you can possibly imagine. So our guys left and they fled to America. But they came to America under a guy named Martin Stefan. And Martin Stefan was one of these guys who said, without a bishop, you have no church. The church is based on the bishop, not the office of the ministry, which is the preaching of the word, but the bishop himself. And then that bishop himself, Martin Stephanie, he liked the confirmation girls too much. So what happens is they decide we have to excommunicate him. And they do, by putting him in a boat on the Mississippi river and pushing him to the other side of the Mississippi river, which is. Then you see him like you're excommunicated and you're waving across the river. But they all start to realize, good heavens, what do we do? We don't. Do we even have a church anymore? Because we don't have a bishop. So here's where CFW Walther starts to get to work, and he dives in the confessions, and he dives into Luther, and he says, no, it's the congregation's right to make their own pastors, to call their own pastors. And so he swings from the state church to bishop. Heavy Episcopal kind of structure all the way almost to Congregationalism, though he would say he's not a congregationalist. I think properly looking at our theology, it's best to say you have congregations with the right to call their pastors, and they are a part of a body of believers that have other pastors to help participate in the calling of pastors. And we work together as a unity, as a unit. This is called a synod for us. We walk together. We don't have bishops in the Lutheran Church. Missouri Synod, I think that's probably too much of an American influence. We have presidents and vice presidents. We have a national church body that has. I forget how many districts, but a lot of regional districts. Within those districts, you have different circuits of gatherings of pastors, and all the pastors get together to talk shop and complain about the synod. And then we vote. We have conventions, national conventions every three years. We never vote on doctrine. Doctrine is not something you can vote on. We like to say it this way. In the Lutheran Church, Christ is the head of the church, and so everything is decided by him. So that if you have a single congregation that does want to overthrow a presbytery, they can. They have the right because they have the word of God as as much as the presbytery has the word of God. You can have a single guy stand up before the king and the prince and the bishops and the popes and say, here I stand. I can do no other, because it's the word of God that has the authority in the church. That's a very nice doctrinal stance to take. How it works out practically is easier said than done, but nonetheless, that's kind of the way we view it. I hope that was quick enough and muddy enough to get me out of this. Go ahead.

Michael Horton (77:14)

Can you. Can you, Bob, give just a very quick rundown on local church offices?

Bob Hiller (77:23)

Yeah. So we have. The way we do it in our church body is you have pastors and you have. So the clergy and the laity. If we have deacons in our church, it's not something we see as biblically mandated. Or elders in the church are usually lay leaders who have positions of spiritual authority, but we would not say they are ordained. Only the pastor has that sort of authority to preach the gospel and administer the sacraments. Everyone else is working to serve the office of the ministry in what we call auxiliary offices. We do have people that we will bring onto staff. Like we will have a director of Christian education or director of Christian outreach. You may have some pastors who are called to specific locations. You may have some pastors who have associate pastors. But basically for us, you have the pastors and you have the laity. And those are the two things necessary for the local church.

Justin Holcomb (78:20)

What about membership? I keep on asking that one, you

Bob Hiller (78:23)

become a member of the church by having faith in Jesus. So we would say, like when we baptize our babies, we do regenerate them, and so they are members of the church by virtue of their baptism. But what happens is, if you're baptized and then you're raised in the faith, and then you go to your confirmation, and at your confirmation, you say, I believe that what happened to me in baptism is true, and what this church confesses is true. And so I'm making my public confirmation that I am a member of this church. So we have baptized Membership and confirmed membership. If somebody wants to join the church, there's education that goes into it. There's, there's sort of catechesis that we take them through and then they stand up by confession and say, I'm a member of this church. Does that answer your question?

Justin Holcomb (79:08)

Similar to us, a membership is, you're baptizing, you show up.

Bob Hiller (79:11)

Yeah, that's really it for us as well. Yeah.

Walter Strickland (79:14)

So, Bob, just on the baptized and confirmed members, is there a distinction in how they relate to the rest of the body or are involved in the life of the body?

Bob Hiller (79:24)

Yeah, this is where it gets interesting, Walter. We were having this discussion recently at our congregation. Not in any major way, just me and my assistant pastor, associate pastor. Baptized members are part of the body and they're served as part of the body and they are members of the congregation who are loved by the rest of the congregation. Confirmed members start to get a little bit more involved in the life of the church with volunteering and stuff like that. Once you hit into high school, usually confirmations around eighth grade, but we don't allow people to vote in the church until they're 18. And I think theologically there might be some issue with that. I think in terms of wisdom, I don't know how much I want a 14 year old saying about what's going on at my church. At the same time, theologically he's a member of the body of Christ and so maybe he should have a say. That's an interesting thing to think about. But we would say that baptized membership does not equal communicant membership. So just because you're baptized doesn't mean you can start participating in the Lord's Supper. There's instruction that's necessary that goes into that. Sometimes that's associated with confirmation. Sometimes we do that a little bit earlier.

Justin Holcomb (80:27)

This has been fun talking about this with you guys and we've talked about other episodes here and there and sometimes off recording. So it's fun to actually be able to have this conversation as an episode. And in this episode, this is the goal for this is to be more about clarity more than combat how different traditions understand the church's structure, authority and accountability. And because the Bible teaches that we confess one holy, catholic and apostolic church. And as early long ago, we started talking about where does this oneness actually live? And we all agree, not first in the shared institutional blueprint, but in the Gospel. Jesus Christ, crucified and risen for sinners, preached as promise received by faith and publicly delivered through the means Christ instituted that's why the how matters polity isn't just paperwork. It's a set of theological convictions about how the risen Christ cares for his flock. The church's vocation is to deliver Christ and his benefits through the public ministry of word and sacrament, preaching the gospel, teaching the faith, baptizing and feeding the flock at the table. And that means church structure has a downstream effect, such as how ministers are called and examined and how doctrine is clarified. And even where we disagree, the shared concern underneath all of our conversation is recognizable Christ's voice not being replaced by ours, and Christ's gospel not being treated as a negotiable. The real test for every church structure is whether it serves Christ's appointed ministry, the faithful preaching of the gospel, and the right administration of sacraments so the church remains center on what Christ gives.

Narrator (82:18)

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