Walter Strickland (4:49)

It is important because it's actually a. We should have a systematic theology of death because, as we saw in Scripture, it's mentioned all throughout Scripture. And so just to give, like, an overview of why I think we need to have a systematic theology of it is because we've seen that death has a judicial, legal, relational, ethical, metaphysical. It's a sign of divine judgment, and it's the severance of God's intended shalom of peace and wholeness, and so sin and fall, and. And the way death is talked about is very robust. And then we ended last week talking about Christ's victory over death and how both incarnation, his death as a sacrifice, and his resurrection ending with 1 Corinthians 15, the last enemy. And then this whole language connected to that of new creation. Jesus is the second Adam. We have a new creation. And so all of the intrusion of death as a verdict for sin in Genesis is very important for all the stuff that follows after Genesis. And then because we have, with this language of new creation, we have an idea of this already, not yet. Something already new has been done, but it's not yet fully completed. So how are we? We have a hope of a resurrection, but we still die. But we have more to come. So we have a whole category we'll unpack called the intermediate. What happens after physical death until soul and body are reunited in the final resurrection, brought back together. And then we have the language of eternal life, the new Heavens, new earth, our hope in the bodily resurrection, which we talk about all the time, had to be it was a real Adam with a real fall and a real resurrection that really happened. And then all of this theology has pastoral significance. We'll talk about that next week. But looking at scripture and then looking to the pastoral, we have some teachings and doctrines that are very important that provide answers and explanations and pastoral things and hope. So yes, that's why I think a theology of death is very important.

Unnamed Colleague (7:06)

Yeah, I like to affirm that, Justin, because, you know, there are bits and pieces about death scattered all throughout the biblical witness. And I think we're very hesitant to talk about death extensively. And because of that practical point, we don't really have a good biblical theology of it, a good systematic theology of it as well. So I think we just are a little bit sheepish to talk about things, as Bob said, that are very macabre at length. And so I think this is a very helpful conversation for us to have.

Walter Strickland (7:39)

Well, I want to jump in on that because I used to teach death and dying at the University of Virginia. I taught for like seven or eight years and I did this at Emory University of Virginia. And it was a sociology class and it was actually very popular class. It was offered every semester, hundreds of students each semester. So I usually had six to seven hundred students in a year. And it was death and dying because students had not really talked about it because in America we do death and we'll get into this later. This is not. But I just want to float it because I think what Walter just said so important is that we don't have a lot of theology of death because we're. Perhaps it's because we're American. We're influenced by American culture because we're a death denying culture. Like if you die, die, we're going to get you buried as quickly as possible. In the most lonely time after someone's died is a month later because everyone else has moved on and you're left in your sorrow. Other cultures actually extend the mourning period longer, some for a month, some up to a year. And how there's different ways of doing it. American culture, for various reasons and American history is a whole different conversation does death in a certain way. So I think Walter, you're right that we have been so influenced by the patterns of our world and culture that this has influenced the fact that we don't talk about death that much. And so why do I have 700 students is because their grandparents were dying and the college students or Grandparents are dying, some of their siblings had died, some of their parents had died, but they're really getting. And they don't have an answer. And asking the death question gets to purpose and meaning of life. Perfect timing. So I think there's a desire for this because there's been a vacuum for. We also don't have a lot of theology of sexuality, a theology of work. There's certain topics that we don't have.

Mike Horton (9:29)

A lot of stuff connected with the body. A lot of stuff connected with the body, we just don't have. We're not good on. And I think too, you know, in America, you know, we're like the plumber who took a look at Niagara Falls and said, give me a minute, I can fix it. We have reduced all real problems to technical problems. So we don't have a problem with God. We don't have a problem with loving our neighbor. We don't have a problem with death that we can't solve through the right technology. We even talk about solving our problem with God and how to be born again or how to get saved in five easy steps. You know, everything, everything has come down to a technique. Think of the Contrast with Psalm 90:12. Lord, teach me to number my days so we may get a heart of wisdom. Teach us to number our days so that we may get a heart of wisdom. We have a lot of knowledge, but we turn all of that knowledge into techne. Technical knowledge, know how. Like YouTube videos. And this is one there's no YouTube video for. Here's our prayer today. Self, not Lord, self. I need to find out how to lengthen my days, so I need to get more knowledge. And this is just different. Lord, teach us to number our days so we can get a heart of wisdom.

Justin Holcomb (11:24)

I think, yeah. To meditate on this topic gives us wisdom because frankly, here's the deal. We need a theology of death because we're dealing with it. And some. We need someone to preach about it. We need someone to give us some hope in the face of this. Yeah. Because we're all dying and we know it. And the denial of it is probably what's making matters worse for us. Just in terms of. There's so much depression and anxiety because people can't figure out why they can't fix this thing. Why can't we stop this problem? And so there needs to be. And it just turns out God has something to say about all this and he has something to do about it. So this is probably why we should have a good theological way of speaking.

Unnamed Colleague (12:07)

So so, you know, I think Mike said it. Well, for stuff that concerns the body, we don't really have great answers. You know, I was talking to a colleague from a sister seminary of mine and he says that, you know, he asked me the question, what is the doctrine where we have the most problems today? Or to ask it a different way, if we had a better blank doctrine, which one would that be? And I said, well, eschatology, because we'd have to have a better understanding of where we're going. He said, no, it's anthropology. And he convinced me of that. And in part because of the fact that we don't know how to deal with the body. And so with our body decaying and dying, this is an issue that we have to engage and that has tentacles into other matters that have to do with the body, vocation, sexuality, and the list kind of goes on. And so. But I think it's helpful for us as we are just thinking about the body and the stuff of the body. As Mike said, how has the church and other groups historically thought about this as we lead up to having our own systematic, more constructive discussion about it?

Mike Horton (13:22)

Well, Christians talk about the intermediate state. Paul says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There's no question that in the New Testament there is a soul that survives the body upon death. And there are lots of good scholars like John Levinson, distinguished Professor of Jewish Studies at Harvard, who have written on this, showing that it's all over the Old Testament as well. You know, you have David with the death of his son's child, mourning over the death of his son, but knowing he can't come back. He'll never come back to him, but he will go to him one day. So he affirms an intermediate state. He affirms that his son is with the Lord. And you have all kinds of psalms that, that teach the same thing. So there is an intermediate state. The good news is when we die, our soul is present with the Lord. The better news is that's just the intermediate state that the ultimate salvation is not going to heaven when we die. The ultimate salvation is the healing and restoration of our body, soul separation and taking it even a level beyond to glorification, something that no human being but Jesus has ever experienced. So that's just absolutely amazing when you think about it. We're looking forward to something no eye has seen nor ear has heard.

Justin Holcomb (15:18)

We had a professor at seminary, Jeff Gibbs, who was always good for a great one liner. And he said, you know, speaking of Heaven versus the resurrection. He would say, heaven is great. It's just not the end of the world. That's a pretty good line. Like, you know, that's great. Like, yeah, I love it. Your soul goes to rest with the Lord, and it's good. It's a. It's a. It's a good thing, but it's not the goal. The goal is the resurrection of the body. If we've died at death with Christ, we'll certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his, as Romans 6. And so you have this idea that whatever happens after we die, and it's hard to say, not a lot of us have been doing it for very long. The resurrection is the real hope in all of this.

Mike Horton (16:01)

Yeah, the Greek thing is Greek philosophy. I finally, when I die, I get what I've been longing for my whole life, what I've been living for my whole life. And that is, finally my soul will be freed from this prison house of flesh. And that Greek view is deep in Christian circles. And of course, it played a very prominent role in the ancient Gnostic movement. We see it even sometimes in medieval theology, and boy, does it come back with a vengeance. In evangelicalism, Bible talks about all things being restored. Jesus talks about when the time of restoration of all things comes. Paul says the whole creation is groaning as in childbirth, waiting for its release from bondage that man subjected it to. And so the whole creation is going to be taken to a new level. It's going to be restored and made even better than it ever has been. That's our hope. Our hope is not, finally we get rid of the body, finally we get rid of this planet. Finally we get rid of things. And boy, what a difference that makes in how we live now, how we look at our bodies now, how we look at this physical world now.

Walter Strickland (17:32)

I think this is important because I remember being in numerous Bible studies years ago in saying things about final hope, resurrection, we were teaching through. I remember it was first Thessalonians, and it's in chapter four where this conversation where someone said, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, you think we're going to have bodies? And this was someone who loves scripture, been to church evangelical type of settings, and this intermediate state is shocking. Like, they thought they were like, wait, that sounds like what Jehovah's Witnesses say about their ancestors or Purgatory or something like that. And so I said, well, let's talk. And the whole Bible study, everyone said, yeah, we thought we're getting rid of the body and we're Going to be like kind of our spirits will be with God in some disembodied state and we'll know we're there. And so while we want to be cautious not to over emphasize the intermediate state, because it's the intermediate state and we want to focus on the ultimate hope of the resurrection of the body and renewal of all creation as described in 1 Thessalonians 4, 13, 18, it's important because, I mean, of course you can overemphasize it in one setting, but because of many people that are in churches that are listening, some people might be surprised to hear about this intermediate state. It is shocking to many people that this is a biblical teaching, not, not some cultic thing that we, the intermediates.

Mike Horton (19:02)

The intermediate state is Holy Saturday.

Justin Holcomb (19:05)

That's good. Yeah, that's good.

Mike Horton (19:08)

And what we're looking for is Easter morning. And what did Jesus do on Easter morning? He didn't play a harp. He didn't bounce around on a cloud. He said, does anybody have any fish around? I want to cook some fish. I'm hungry.

Unnamed Colleague (19:24)

Yeah. Well, if we don't have this resurrection of the body, 1 Corinthians 15 makes no sense.

Justin Holcomb (19:30)

Exactly.

Unnamed Colleague (19:31)

The Incarnation makes no sense. And then if we go all the way back to the two creation, I think what happens is that we don't. There's a two chapter sort of reading of the Bible. It's not creation, fall, redemption, new creation, it's fall and then redemption and then that's it. And those two get extracted out of the goodness of creation and the renewal of all things. And so that's, that's, that's a sort of reduction, a reduction of the biblical narrative. And I think if we miss that goodness of creation, then we actually miss the goodness of body and soul together, this renewed creation, not this like new creation. And I think that's where a lot of the confusion comes. While there are a lot of evangelicals that don't look forward to this, our new bodies, resurrected bodies, a renewed creation, because they haven't had a good understanding of the doctrine of creation from the beginning.

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Justin Holcomb (21:29)

I may have shared this story before, but when I was on my vicarage, that's an internship in, in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. When, when I had my vicarage, I was asked to do a devotion at a retirement home. And one of the ladies there, her husband had just died. And so I thought, oh, you know what? It'll be really appropriate if I do a. A class on the resurrection of the dead. So I get there and all the ladies are coming in and they're all on their walkers, and they're all arguing with each other about who had a worst night's sleep because of the pains here and there. And they're trying to, you know, it's all a topper game of who's in more pain and all of this. And as we start the class, I sit down and, and I say, ladies, I've got great news for you today. When Jesus returns, you're going to get your body back. And one of the ladies there goes, vicar, that is the worst news I've ever heard in my life.

Walter Strickland (22:15)

That's good.

Justin Holcomb (22:17)

And I, I love that story because Walter made a really important distinction where you brought up the renewed creation. It's not just we're doing this again. The resurrection is going to be a freedom from pain and suffering. No more tears, no more sorrow, no more death, no more dying, no more angst or suffering or war. It's all going to be done away with. And so I think so often when we talk about resurrection, what we need to emphasize is that we think the intermediate state is better because that's heaven, and heaven must be better than earth. But actually, what the resurrection is sort of heaven coming to earth and making earth heavenly, making God present with us with no sin and no suffering. It's restoring the goodness, the shalom of creation without the potential for sin. And so it's something far greater than we could have ever hoped or imagined, as Paul implies in First Corinthians 13.

Mike Horton (23:19)

Yeah, that's great stuff. I think when we exaggerate, you know, kind of following, again, Greek philosophy, when we exaggerate the distinction between soul and body and even put them in antithesis, a lot of that is because we have adopted a Greek view of the immortality of the soul. So on the one hand, yes, we are saved to become immortal. We will be forever immortal, but we were not created immortal. There's no part of us that is immortal. Our soul is not the part of a. In Greek mythology and philosophy, to be immortal is to be a God. I mean, the whole definition of being an immortal is that you're a God. Those are used interchangeably. Well, we were created mortal and we will be given immortality as a gift because Jesus pulled off what Adam and Eve failed to do. 2 Timothy 1:10, Paul tells us this has now been manifested through the appearing of our Savior, Jesus Christ, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. And in 1 Timothy 6:16, the apostle says, God alone has immortality, so it's not a possession of any part of us. There's nothing deep down inside of me that is divine or immortal or eternal. My soul is as much created as my fingernails. It's the whole person who has created, the whole person who's fallen, the whole person who will be raised, and the whole person who will be immortal forever. Isn't that amazing to think that we are going to be. Not just that we'll live forever. That could be kind of boring, just extending life into who knows how many millennia, but incapable, impermeable to death. That's a different kind of living.

Walter Strickland (25:40)

And the gift nature of that's so important because that is the Greek place. Because we all think, okay, well, the soul inherently is going to live on. So I guess when we, I guess when sin happened, the body died, but the soul can't die because it has to continue. And this is where we're saying there's a creator creation distinction. Everything else that's not God is created. It is not inherent, that it is not everlasting. And it doesn't have to live forever. It can, if God wills it to live forever, he can, he can empower it to be continuing. But that's, that's the Greek part that sneaks in there. And this is, this is why a lot of Christians have, are confused about where the soul goes after death is because one. They think, well, it has to go somewhere because it has to live. Or it, you know, there's, there's other responses to that. So I think it'd be helpful to think through if any examples from our traditions that, that speak to this. I'm looking first at Philippians where. And Calvin writes about this in one of his institutes where he's talking about the soul and he's highlighting Philippians 1:26, where Paul expresses his desire to Depart to be with Christ. And he talks about. He uses that as a text to explain. Departing here means I'm with Christ. Looks at 2 Corinthians 5, 8, which speaks to being absent from the body, being present with the Lord, and indicating that there's a conscious existence of being with God immediately following death. And in our tradition, I honestly just used this a little bit ago. It's the ministration at the time of death. I'll read the whole thing, but there's a specific line, just because I like how wonderful this is. God the Father, have mercy on your servant, God the Son, have mercy on your servant, God the Holy Spirit, have mercy on your servant. Holy Trinity, one God, have mercy on your servant from all evil and from all sin, from all tribulation. Good Lord, deliver him. By your holy incarnation, by your cross and passion, by your precious death and burial, Good Lord, deliver him. By your glorious resurrection and ascension, and by the coming of the Holy Spirit, Good Lord, deliver him. This is like a history. It's like just all the different dimensions of the work of Christ and the sending of the Spirit. We sinners beseech you to hear us, Lord Christ, that it may please you to deliver the soul of your servant from the power of evil and from eternal death. Death, we beseech you, good Lord. We beseech you to hear us, good Lord. And then it continues on about parting from sin, granting them a place of refreshment and everlasting blessedness, pleasing them to have joy and gladness in your kingdom. But we sinners beseech you to hear us, Lord Christ, that it may please you to deliver the soul of your servant from the power of evil and from eternal death. That's not. Deliver them from the body or is right.

Mike Horton (28:31)

Deliver your servant.

Unnamed Colleague (28:32)

Death.

Walter Strickland (28:32)

Deliver your servant from the power of death. Not embodiment, not something else.

Mike Horton (28:37)

I think, you know, so important. If we're talking systematically, this is why we need it, need to talk systematically, theologically about death. It's always distinguishing it from other positions so that we get clearer in our heads about what we're talking about. In Greek philosophy, the soul is primarily self consciousness. That's really what separates us from the animals, self consciousness. But what's evident in the Bible is that what separates us from the animals is God consciousness. Yes, we can talk about God and we can talk to God. We have a relationship with God, our covenantal relationship. We're not just creatures of God created by God doing what God made us to do. We are creatures in relation to God in A relationship with God. The first inkling of life for Adam, when he was created from the dust of the ground and God breathed in him, the breath of life was not self consciousness, but that consciousness of God. He was looking up at his Father, who made him. And the first thing, beloved, those of you who die in Christ, the first thing you'll see when you die is the face of your Father. And so that God consciousness is what separates us from the animals.

Walter Strickland (30:23)

No, I. I loved it because I've only heard that phrase from Schleiermacher. And to hear it finally redeemed, properly, negatively, like, oh, yeah, he believes Jesus is the one that has God consciousness and spreads it to other people. He had a horrible soteriology and Christology and a bunch of other things. And so it was fun because that's a term that when you used it was shocking to me. And I thought, wait, that's actually a correct description of the difference. So I. It just stood out of. I was having my own moment of how he used that term.

Justin Holcomb (30:52)

That's why we're titling this episode Redeeming Schleiermacher. It's going to be very good.

Mike Horton (30:55)

Yeah, very good. Very practical. Very practical.

Justin Holcomb (30:59)

A lot of people are interested. Let me ask this. I think this is going to be worth bringing up because every time I talk about the intermediate state in this sort of business with my congregation or with any group, the question always comes up, how is this not like purgatory? So what is the difference? When we're talking about the intermediate state versus the doctrine of purgatory?

Mike Horton (31:21)

You're not suffering.

Justin Holcomb (31:24)

Yeah.

Walter Strickland (31:25)

You're not being purged. You're not being purified. It's not a pure. It's not a need of. You got something that needs to be purified out. You are you. You've already been declared pure. And that's not the issue of purification, of. Of corruption or sin that is being done.

Unnamed Colleague (31:42)

Yeah. So it's certainly based upon something that you are exercising. This sort of getting rid of this additional residue from your life. And then people are going to be with the Lord. Exactly. But it's more of this. The Lord is already purified us, as we've said, and then eventually our bodies will be raised and we'll be reunited with those. So it's actually very different, you know? Yeah, it's very different. There's a happy anticipation there, not an anxious anticipation.

Justin Holcomb (32:12)

There's not more work to be done on you. And I think that's what needs to be clarified, is that Purgatory is teaching. Purgatory is not merely an intermediate state. It's a place in which you are being purged of more sin in your life. You're being made to suffer so that you can pay for more penalty for your sins. Purgatory is a doctrine of necessity. When you have a bad view of grace, that undermines the Gospel completely for.

Mike Horton (32:37)

Christ, Christ isn't enough.

Justin Holcomb (32:39)

Yeah, exactly right. So for us, we don't need to fear death or another round of purging because Christ's death is sufficient. And so there's nothing. But for the Christian, you look at death and say, well, that is a. That is a sorrowful thing from which I will arise. But I don't need to fear it because Christ has defeated it.

Unnamed Colleague (32:57)

And I think something. That's something that's important about purgatory versus, you know, intermediate state. You know, we are, you know, to be absent with the body is to.

Walter Strickland (33:05)

Be present with the Lord.

Unnamed Colleague (33:06)

And so it seems to me. I'm not a Purgatory scholar, but it seems to me that there's an absence of the presence of the Lord that's there in real ways. So there's comfort in this intermediate state, but we're still looking ahead for more.

Justin Holcomb (33:19)

Yeah, that's good.

Mike Horton (33:20)

Yeah, that is good. We've really properly, given our cultural background, emphasized the unity of body and soul, while also affirming the intermediate state. It's helpful also to see that it's not because our bodies are bad and our souls are good that the soul is present with the Lord without the body, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, but each in its order, each in its turn. First, we are raised spiritually. Ephesians 2 tells us that while we were dead in trespasses and sins, he made us alive in Christ by grace. You were saved. What were we doing before he made us alive? Well, we weren't choosing Jesus, that's for sure. We weren't becoming a better you. We were flipping God off. We were like the rest by nature, children of wrath. But while we were dead, while we were dead, he made us alive in Christ by grace. You were saved. So we're no longer spiritually dead. We are alive spiritually, but we're dying physically. And our bodies will be raised after our souls have gone to be with the Lord. The fact that we need spiritual resurrection, not just bodily resurrection, shows how filthy we are on the inside, how corrupt, how guilty we are spiritually as well as physically. And we need our whole constitution saved and restored, but the Intermediate state is where our soul is in the presence of the Lord until God finally raises our bodies. And it's interesting, he raises our bodies together just as we died as one race together. We'll be raised as one race together.

Unnamed Colleague (35:28)

That's good. So a while ago, Justin asked us to look at our traditions and sort of see what they have to say and contribute. So I pulled up my trusty copy of the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 to see what it said there in Article 10 on last things, there's a line, I think it's helpful that really it's helpful. And also I have some critique of it. In one line, it says, the righteous in their resurrected and glorified bodies will receive the reward and will dwell forever in heaven with the Lord. So this does affirm, you know, this resurrected bodies will be with the Lord, this sort of God consciousness that we'll sort of realize there. But this idea of to dwell forever in heaven with the Lord I think is a little bit more vague than what we've talked about that I wish was a little bit more clear. Because I think there's this conflation of intermediate and this sort of kingdom reality. And I think that it's this kind of ambiguity that we're really falling prey to because we do read the verses that say to be absent with the body, to be present with the Lord. Oh, that's great. That's the goal. And in here, there's no sort of delineation of the two. And so anyway, I think there's help and there's a need for clarity at that point. Yeah.

Justin Holcomb (36:50)

In my tradition, and I'll have a quote from this later, we do believe in pretty much everything we've been talking about here, though you will hear Luther very oftentimes refer to death as a blessed sleep from which we will arise to. When Luther talks this way, I don't think we want to necessarily assume. And I'd have to do more work on this, but I don't want think we need to assume he's speaking of soul sleep here. Rather what he's saying is when you close your eyes and lay your body down, you fall asleep, and then the next morning you wake up and you get back to work again. What happens when we die? We lay our bodies down and we close our eyes, and then God's going to wake us up and bring us forth. I don't think it means there's like a lack of consciousness or something like this for the soul or however we want to properly word that. But it is to say, look, just like we've been talking about, the end game here is not the soul being with the Lord, but rather the resurrection.

Walter Strickland (37:47)

Of the dead before we end. We've spent a lot of time on intermediate state and as Mike said, that is appropriate, I think. And because we're going to move toward pastoral concerns in the next episode, I think talking about glorification and the eternal state would be. And again, we don't have to say much, but I want to just go say what Christians have always said about this because we don't know. That was a point that Mike said. We don't really know. No one. No, I see no ears heard. There's only been one person that's experienced this so far. But this is as Mike has shorthanded before. We will be as much like God as it is possible for a creature to be. And when I say that to students, it gets their attention. Just yesterday I was teaching about this in a seminary class and watching and it was a theology for counseling program and watching the students look and they looked at me, said what? You all look shocked. They said, can we say that to people? And I was like, yes.

Mike Horton (38:51)

That to people.

Walter Strickland (38:53)

And I said, why did you like that? And said. And so they were kind of lunging toward. There was something that happened in them when they heard that it violated a lot of the assumptions about the body and the future and heaven and purpose and end of the telos. And they said so it was just fun listening to them all celebrating that reality.

Mike Horton (39:16)

And yet that's wonderful.

Walter Strickland (39:17)

So I'm not trying to say like let's say what that looks like and what kind of bodies of how we look like we're all 33 because Jesus resurrected when he was 33. I mean, there's weird stuff about this out there, but we will be as much like God as it is possible. For a creature to be is a mind blowing thing. The honoring gift of what God has given to us. And that is something to say clearly because we can unpack that later, but we need to say that very clearly.

Mike Horton (39:44)

Yeah, Calvin calls it the greatest possible blessing from Christ.

Justin Holcomb (39:47)

So guys, when we faithfully consider the reality of death in light of the even greater reality of the resurrection, we find that death is an enemy that we do mourn, but we don't need to fear it. To get to the quote that I referenced earlier from Luther, he says this. We Christians who have been redeemed by the dear blood of the Son of God should by faith train ourselves and accustom ourselves to despise death and regard it as a deep, strong, and sweet sleep to regard the coffin as nothing but a paradise, and the bosom of our Lord Christ, and the grave is nothing but a soft couch or sofa, which it really is in the sight of God. For he says, in John, our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, and in Matthew, the girl's not dead but sleeping. Thus to St. Paul in 1st Corinthians 15 bans from his sight every ugly aspect of death in our mortal body, and brings to the fore a holy, delightful, and joyous picture of life. When he says, what is sown is perishable what is raised is imperishable what is sown in weakness is raised in power what is sown perishable is raised imperishable. This imperishable resurrection was promised to you in your baptism and to all who have faith in his name. For if you have died a death like his, you will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.

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