White Horse Inn – “Memento Mori: Death and the Intermediate State”
Hosts: Michael Horton, Justin Holcomb, Bob Hiller, Walter R. Strickland II
Date: February 9, 2025
Overview
This episode of White Horse Inn takes a systematic look at Christian beliefs about death, the “intermediate state,” and the ultimate hope of resurrection. Moving beyond cultural discomfort and Greek philosophical influences, the hosts unpack biblical teaching about death’s meaning, what happens immediately after death, and the final destiny of believers—all with an eye toward Christian hope and pastoral care. The conversation highlights why a robust theology of death is both biblically essential and personally transformative.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Why We Need a Theology of Death
- Death in Scripture:
Walter Strickland underscores the multifaceted role of death in the Bible—judicial, relational, metaphysical. It is tied to sin, judgment, the loss of “shalom,” and ultimately to Christ’s victory. - Cultural Avoidance:
American culture’s “death denial” leaves people without tools to process grief or purpose. Justin Holcomb shares teaching experiences where students' lack of exposure to the topic created a vacuum of meaning. - Systematic vs. Piecemeal:
There’s a need for systematic, not fragmented, teaching about death, rather than pulling scattered verses or letting cultural discomfort set the tone.“We’re influenced by the patterns of our world and culture...that’s influenced the fact that we don’t talk about death that much.” – Justin Holcomb [07:39]
2. Bodily Existence and Its Significance
- Anthropology Matters:
The discussion turns to anthropology—the doctrine of humanity—and how ignoring “the stuff of the body” affects doctrines like vocation, sexuality, and resurrection. - American “Technical” Mindset:
Mike Horton critiques the tendency to treat human issues, even death, as technical problems with easy fixes:“We have reduced all real problems to technical problems...this is one there’s no YouTube video for.” – Mike Horton [09:29]
- God-Consciousness vs. Self-Consciousness:
Countering Greek philosophy, Horton argues that the Bible centers our identity on “God consciousness,” not self:“The first inkling of life for Adam...was not self-consciousness, but consciousness of God.” – Mike Horton [00:38, 28:37]
3. The Intermediate State: Present with Christ, Not the Final Hope
- Biblical Basis:
The New Testament and parts of the Old affirm the soul’s survival after death—“absent from the body, present with the Lord”—but this is only “the intermediate state.”“The good news is when we die, our soul is present with the Lord. The better news is that’s just the intermediate state.” – Mike Horton [13:22]
- Heaven Is Not the End:
Seminary professor Jeff Gibbs, as quoted:“Heaven is great. It’s just not the end of the world.” – Jeff Gibbs, cited by Justin Holcomb [15:18] The goal is not disembodied existence, but bodily resurrection.
- Resurrection and Creation Affirmed
There is a danger, the hosts warn, in reducing the Christian story to just “fall–redemption,” skipping creation and new creation. This leads to undervaluing the physical world and our future hope.
4. Correcting Misunderstandings: Greek Philosophy, Immortality, and the Soul
- Greek vs. Biblical Views:
The hosts caution against adopting the Greek view that the soul is naturally immortal and that salvation is shedding the body.“Our hope is not, finally we get rid of the body, finally we get rid of this planet...What a difference that makes in how we live now.” – Mike Horton [16:01] “There’s nothing deep down inside of me that is divine or immortal or eternal. My soul is as much created as my fingernails.” – Mike Horton [23:19]
- Immortality as Gift, Not Inherent Quality:
Biblically, immortality is granted as a gift through Christ’s victory, not intrinsic to the soul.“We were not created immortal...We will be given immortality as a gift because Jesus pulled off what Adam and Eve failed to do.” – Mike Horton [23:19]
5. The Intermediate State vs. Purgatory
- No Purging, No Suffering:
The intermediate state is not a “purgatory” where Christians are further purified. Christ’s work is sufficient.“You’ve already been declared pure. And that’s not the issue of purification.” – Walter Strickland [31:25] “Purgatory is a doctrine of necessity when you have a bad view of grace that undermines the Gospel.” – Justin Holcomb [32:12]
- Conscious Fellowship:
The intermediate state is described as conscious, restful fellowship (“present with the Lord”), not a place of anxiety or punishment.
6. Resurrection: Our True Hope
- Glorification and New Creation:
The Christian hope is bodily resurrection in a renewed creation—imperishable, free of pain and death.“What the resurrection is, is sort of heaven coming to earth and making earth heavenly, making God present with us with no sin and no suffering.” – Justin Holcomb [22:17]
- Creatures Like God:
Walter Strickland offers a striking summary:“We will be as much like God as it is possible for a creature to be. And that is something to say clearly.” – Walter Strickland [38:53]
7. Pastoral Application and Stories
- Facing Death with Hope:
The doctrine offers comfort and reshapes grief—death is a temporary enemy, not the final word.- Justin Holcomb recounts telling elderly women about bodily resurrection, one responding, “That is the worst news I’ve ever heard in my life.” This leads to clarifying renewed bodies, free from decay and pain. [21:29]
- Luther’s Picture:
Luther called death “a deep, strong, and sweet sleep” where the grave becomes "a soft couch or sofa":“For if you have died a death like his, you will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.” – Luther, quoted by Justin Holcomb [39:47]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Death-Denial Culture:
“In America, we do death...we’re going to get you buried as quickly as possible. In the most lonely time after someone’s died is a month later because everyone else has moved on.”
– Justin Holcomb [07:39] -
On the Resurrection:
“If we don’t have this resurrection of the body, 1 Corinthians 15 makes no sense. The Incarnation makes no sense.”
– Unnamed Colleague [19:24] -
On Immortality:
“There’s nothing deep down inside of me that is divine or immortal or eternal. My soul is as much created as my fingernails.”
– Mike Horton [23:19] -
On the Intermediate State vs. Purgatory:
“You are you. You’ve already been declared pure...not the issue of purification.”
– Walter Strickland [31:25] -
On the Christian Hope:
“We will be as much like God as it is possible for a creature to be.”
– Walter Strickland [38:53]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- The Need for a Theology of Death:
[04:49] – Walter Strickland lays out reasons for a systematic theology of death
[07:39] – Justin Holcomb on death-denial in culture - Body, Technology, and Wisdom:
[09:29] – Mike Horton on American “technical” approaches to death
[12:07] – Anthropology and the body’s significance - Intermediate State Explained:
[13:22] – Mike Horton on “absent from the body, present with the Lord”
[15:18] – Heaven as not the ultimate hope - Resurrection vs. Greek Ideas:
[16:01] – Mike Horton on Greek philosophy’s lingering influence
[19:02] – Intermediate state as “Holy Saturday” - Pastoral Story:
[21:29] – Justin Holcomb’s nursing home anecdote - Immortality, Soul, and Gift:
[23:19] – Mike Horton on immortality as a gift, not inherent - Intermediate State vs. Purgatory:
[31:21] – Mike Horton, Walter Strickland, and Justin Holcomb answer the purgatory question - Glorification and Final Hope:
[38:53] – Walter Strickland on being “as much like God as it is possible for a creature to be” - Luther on Death as Sleep:
[39:47] – Justin Holcomb reads Luther’s take on Christian death
Conclusion
The hosts of White Horse Inn challenge listeners to move from vague or cultural views of death toward a fully biblical, hope-filled theology—one that affirms embodied existence, values the physical world, and rests in Christ’s completed work for both soul and body. Through stories, biblical exposition, and theological reflection, the episode offers comfort and clarity about death, the intermediate state, and the Christian’s glorious future.