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- [00:00]
Sola Media Announcer
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- [00:40]
Sophia Holcomb
Both Mere Christianity and Screwtape Letters came out of World War II. Okay, but Screwtape Letters was early World War II, and it was a specific point for Louis. He was listening to a 1940 radio speech by Hitler, and Louis wrote to his brother about the disturbing power that this broadcast had had on his imagination and intellect. And he kept noting Hitler's unflinching and forceful delivery and how persuasive it was that he said, quote, statements that I know to be untrue all but convinced me. At any rate, for the moment.
- [01:14]
Justin Holcomb
Wow.
- [01:15]
Sophia Holcomb
And this observation scared Lewis, but it also planted the idea for a novel, as I guess it does for every, I don't know, he heard that and thought I should write a book about it. So he wanted to explore and expose the psychology of evil and temptation by viewing it from the perspective of the tempter. And so he did this satirically by revealing the tactics of temptation from the perspective of a senior demon named Screwtape to his nephew Wormwood. And this was published serially in The Guardian in 1942. And people were mistaken, thinking this was actual advice by someone about temptation. And so they were concerned and they were like, don't read this C.S. lewis guy. He's such a heretic. That's awesome, right?
- [02:13]
Sola Media Announcer
Applying the riches of the Reformation to the modern Church. This is White Horse Sin, a weekly roundtable discussion about theology and culture.
- [02:35]
Bob Hiller
In 1944, a literary review journal in England called the Times Literary supplement said of C.S. lewis, Mr. Lewis has a quite unique power of making theology attractive, exciting, and one might almost say, an uproariously fascinating quest. Today on White Horse Inn, we are going to discuss the theology of C S Lewis and his numerous other writings besides the Chronicles of Narnia. And we are excited to do this with you today. And to do that I am with my usual uproariously fascinating, friendly hosts, Mike Horton, Walter Strickland and Justin Holcomb. I'm Bob Hiller, and we are once again delighted to have the equally uproariously fascinating C.S. lewis aficionado Sophia Holcomb with us on the show again today. Sophia, it is a delight to have you back with us talking about CS Lewis.
- [03:26]
Sophia Holcomb
Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here.
- [03:28]
Bob Hiller
Well, we're going to dive in right now. So we talked in our last episode kind of about the history of Lewis. We talked about the Chronicles and Narnia, but as I mentioned, he's written a lot of other stuff. So, Sophia, let's talk about his nonfiction and then we'll get to his fiction. How do you think we should approach his nonfiction work? And can you tell us kind of about the breadth of his non fiction work?
- [03:54]
Sophia Holcomb
First, to offer a approach for readers when they're encountering Lewis's nonfiction is to not skip the preface, because that is where Lewis sets out his goal for a book. And he gives a humble approach for how he's going to do it. And like you said in that review, as a quest. He describes his approach as a peer with his reader. He's not a professor. He's not teaching them about the subject, he's discovering it alongside them. So it's an immensely humble approach and I think it's also less intimidating. Although Lewis was brilliant and assumed we know so much more than we do in his books, he assumes we know French, Greek, Latin, all the things. But I think it's a very humble and generous, intellectually generous approach. And he had an immense breadth of subjects as well as the medium that he wrote them in. He wrote essays, epistolary novels, letters of spiritual wisdom, poetry. And I guess that wouldn't be nonfiction, but extreme breadth of mediums, but then the breadth of subjects he covered. Some of his books, like a snapshot of his books is he wrote about miracles, he wrote reflections on the Psalms, and he examined the different literary methods and how valuable that is to our reading of the Psalms. In the Reflection on the Psalms and then the Four Loves, he did a not linguistic study of the four words for love in Philia, eros, storge, agape, but a Christian application of those words. So a listener should not expect a Greek lesson. It's the opposite of any of that. He wrote A Grief Observed, which was an autobiographical account after his wife's death that is striking to read as this is the same author who wrote Mere Christianity. He holds faith and doubt in beautiful tension in that book. Surprised by Joy is his autobiography, his conversion narrative problem of pain. He attempts to explain, not to solve, but to work out the problem of evil and suffering, the abolition of man. He talks about education and in the Weight of Glory he discusses. I think that book mainly focuses on ordinary Christianity. Yes, and metaphysics. He explores that in essay format. And then he also frequently addressed the same subjects over and over again. He comes back to moral relativism quite a bit. Reason and morality, I don't mean those as two separate categories. I mean reason and morality together. And how we get to morality from reason, it's not just a herd instinct or a feeling nice sentimental goodness, but like a real solid reality. In that same vein he discusses metaphysics and epistemology quite a bit. But he does it in such a simple but not simplistic way. And then the final thing he really hones in on is the person and working of Jesus Christ and the centrality of that. He works it into almost every discussion. Even if it's like you're talking about education. He doesn't necessarily explicitly mention Jesus, but he'll talk about something behind the morality that clearly points to Jesus, which is very interesting and very thoroughly converted of him to do.
- [07:04]
Bob Hiller
Yeah, our old pal Dr. Rod Rosenblatt used to say that. Lewis, what made him so wonderful? You said simple but not simplistic. He could write an intelligible sentence. The thing is, you had to read it really slowly like because it's pretty. He gets pretty deep with pretty simple sentences. Now you mentioned his themes in his non fiction work, but those same themes are driving a lot of his fiction work, so. So how do these two work together? How should we be approaching his fiction work as well?
- [07:37]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah, that's a really good question. The way that I've learned to approach it is in the Four Loves audio broadcast that Lewis did. Lewis is discussing the proper format for discourse about the different theological concepts. And when he addresses the idea of the fruition of God's love and humanity. When he gets to that topic, he says a didactic work would not be the place for such a discussion. He says, I would need myths and symbols to do that.
- [08:08]
Bob Hiller
That's interest.
- [08:10]
Sophia Holcomb
So I think a lot of his fiction is the myths and symbols for discussing God's love and its fruition in humanity.
- [08:18]
Bob Hiller
Okay.
- [08:19]
Sophia Holcomb
And three of the most popular works of fiction are Space Trilogy, the Great Divorce, until we have Faces. So in the Space Trilogy, he's taking a polytheistic approach of the planets, each planet being governed by a God and telling an essentially monotheistic story about redemption of these planets. It's really, it's interestingly subversive. In the way he does it. But he sneaks past watchful dragons with these stories, and he. He sneaks Christianity into people's minds in a romantic way, with the true meaning of romanticism in that particular trilogy. And then in the Great Divorce, we talked about this a little bit in the last episode, but he offers a supposal of the reality of heaven, about how real heaven is and what it would be like if people in hell were able to experience a bit of that realness. And this also kind of deals with dualism in that hell is not the antithesis of heaven. It's less real than heaven. And so. But he also discusses the fruition of God's love in that story as well. But no place does he do it more beautifully or, I think, more clearly than until we have Faces, which is. He works Jesus into Greek mythology.
- [09:40]
Bob Hiller
Yeah, yeah.
- [09:41]
Sophia Holcomb
He does a retelling of the myth of Cupid and Psyche, but this time the son of the God of love is Eros. And if Aslan's Jesus, Eros is Jesus until we have Faces. And so I think he addresses the fruition of God's love. I think I said in a subversive way. I don't know. That's completely correct. But he sneaks it past to make it palatable for people who don't think they need God's love.
- [10:07]
Bob Hiller
Yeah, that's terrific. Yeah. That. Till we have Faces. Is that the last full book he wrote?
- [10:14]
Sophia Holcomb
Yes, that's a good point. It's the last piece of fiction he wrote. He would write other nonfiction afterwards, but that was the last piece of fiction, and I feel like it's the most complete as well.
- [10:21]
Bob Hiller
Yeah, that's tremendous.
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Justin Holcomb
He wrote that one with joy, apparently. And did he say that was his favorite one or what?
- [10:31]
Sophia Holcomb
He did say that in Perelandra. So one of the books from the space trilogy were the ones he liked the most. He doesn't necessarily. They're his best, but he liked those.
- [10:41]
Bob Hiller
Those are his favorites of his own. Yeah. Perelandra. Can you give a quick, quick summary? What is the space trilogy kind of about? Yeah, just wrote, like, overview of the story so people get an idea.
- [10:52]
Sophia Holcomb
Yes. So the main character, Ransom, is kidnapped by two scientists and taken to Malachandra, or Mars, where Ransom's sort of an atheist, so he has no idea. He thinks he's gonna die. He has. Sees no way out. But he ends up meeting what are called the Oyarsa, which are like the archangels of these various planets. And as the story progresses into Perelandra, Ransom finds out he is the Chosen One and he is sent to be a ransom for the fallen planets. And it's quite a complex story as it works out. But he's an interesting figure because he's not exactly a Christ figure. He's a fallen human who ends up doing very Christological things with his life. But it's a science fiction space adventure without all the technology. If that's the easiest summary. And then the last book.
- [11:47]
Bob Hiller
That's a great way of saying it.
- [11:48]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah, yeah. And then the last book, that Hideous Strength, deals with a lot of the ideas he talks about in the Abolition of Man, which is this one doesn't take place in space, but it involves the gods of the various planets coming to Earth. So I would encourage people to read it because it's not an easy book to summarize or an easy trilogy to summarize. It's quite complex. But he deals with these, like I said, in a very simple but not simplistic way.
- [12:14]
Bob Hiller
I think that's. That's an excellent introduction to him. And if you are going to read the Abolition of Man, make sure you read that Hideous Strength alongside of it to help make sense of that book for you.
- [12:24]
Walter Strickland
Yeah, Can I last.
- [12:25]
Bob Hiller
Go ahead. Yeah.
- [12:25]
Walter Strickland
Can I just. I'd love to. One of my favorite writings of Lewis, in fact, is Abolition of Man. And isn't it there where he has the. It's all the technology, basically anticipates the transhumanist movement.
- [12:45]
Bob Hiller
Yeah. Yes. That Hideous strength, you mean?
- [12:48]
Walter Strickland
Yeah, that hideous strength. Okay, get them confused. That is. I mean, one of the things that strikes me about that is how prescient he was, you know, about the way people think about technology. You can read that today, right next to, you know, anything going on in Silicon Valley.
- [13:09]
Sophia Holcomb
For sure. Yeah. I have a mentor. His name's Andrew Lazo. And he always talks about the reason Louis is so, like you said, prescient and seems to know so much about our future is because he had one very important piece of furniture in his bedroom, which was a mirror. He was always looking at himself and his own human nature and then looking at the world in an honest way, but then doing it with the hope of the gospel, knowing that redemption, that redemption happened and full redemption is coming. So I think that's the reason he seems so good at this. Not seems, but is.
- [13:43]
Bob Hiller
All right, so then you've mentioned a lot of the books, but there's two that we really probably need to spend some time with. That outside of the Chronicles of Narnia are probably his most significant writings, nonfiction, would be Mere Christianity and then fiction. I think this is the one that kind of put him on the map, the Screwtape Letters. So can you give kind of the background of those books and tell us a little bit more about them?
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Sophia Holcomb
Sure. So I'll start with Screwtape Letters. Both Mere Christianity and Screwtape Letters came out of World War II.
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Bob Hiller
Okay.
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Sophia Holcomb
But Screwtape Letters was early World War II, and it was a specific point for Lewis. He was listening to a 1940 radio speech by Hitler, and Lewis wrote to his brother about the disturbing power that this broadcast had had on his imagination and intellect. And he kept noting Hitler's unflinching and forceful delivery and how persuasive it was that he said, quote, statements that I know to be untrue, all but convince me. At any rate, for the moment.
- [14:45]
Mike Horton
Wow.
- [14:46]
Sophia Holcomb
And this observation scared Lewis, but it also planted the idea for a novel, as I guess it does for every. I don't know. He heard that and thought I should write a book about it. So he wanted to explore and expose the psychology of evil and temptation by viewing it from the perspective of the tempter. And so he did this satirically by revealing the tactics of temptation from the perspective of a senior demon named Screwtape to his nephew, Wormwood.
- [15:15]
Walter Strickland
And.
- [15:16]
Sophia Holcomb
And this was published serially in The Guardian in 1942. And people were mistaken, thinking this was actual advice by someone about temptation. And so they were concerned, and they were like, don't read this C.S. lewis guy. He's such a heretic. That's awesome. Right? So it was written between July 1940 and April 1941, just to give a timestamp on it. And this was the book that made him famous in America, and he was on the COVID of Time magazine. It's a drawing of him with a devil and angel on either shoulder. And this decidedly made him very unpopular in England, especially among his colleagues, because, one, it's not the thing to publish outside your field. He was a literature professor. It's also not the thing to publish satirical theology, if that's. That's just never a thing you should do.
- [16:05]
Justin Holcomb
So American of them. I mean, pandering to the dumb Americans.
- [16:10]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah, it was too simple, far too simplistic. I mean, that's an overstatement, but I find that funny that the dichotomy of that. So that was Screwtape Letters. And then Mere Christianity also came about in World War II, as I said. And it came about because Lewis was approached by the BBC because they were so impressed with Problem of Pain and the popular level that he was able to explain these complex ideas to people that were not trained intellectually in the same way he was with logic and philosophy, but to do it in a very intellectually generous way. And so that he was asked in 1941 to offer spiritual guidance and reassurance to a nation reeling from the effects of the Blitz in London and the ongoing effects of World War II. And so despite. I mean, we talked about technology, despite not being a fan of the radio, Lewis saw this as an ability to. An opportunity to reach millions of people. But he talks about how he had to convince people of their need for redemption. So he started out by explaining sin, but he did so if you read Mere Christianity, he does it in a very kind and gentle way. Not in like a soft. Like, you're so special, you're okay, but in a. No, you have a need for this. And he presented it so that people wanted to keep tuning in and listening. And he did it in a layman's view of Christianity. So he wasn't a trained theologian, but he did it so well. And then these talks were, like I said, received with much enthusiasm. And so they were published in three stages until, in 1952, a combined volume was requested called New Christianity, which we have today.
- [17:54]
Bob Hiller
And, you know the BBC lost the tapes. Yes, like, they lost the tapes. This is criminal. Terrible.
- [18:01]
Sophia Holcomb
And they used it for ammunition during the war.
- [18:04]
Mike Horton
Oh, my word.
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Bob Hiller
Is that true?
- [18:06]
Sophia Holcomb
Unfortunately, yes.
- [18:07]
Mike Horton
So, Sophia, throughout our time together, both this episode and last, you've mentioned the fact that Lewis is not a trained theologian, but with Mere Christianity. The reason why the BBC approached him is, as you said, because he has the ability to communicate to an audience that is also not trained in theology. Do you think his lack of the theological training made him in some way be able to relate to a broader audience that's also not theologically trained?
- [18:35]
Sophia Holcomb
I think so. Because in the preface to Reflection on the Psalms, he says, sometimes when you're confused in a class, a peer might be able to clear up your confusion better than a professor would. Because the professor. And it's not. There's not a problem with trained theologians or professors, professors, obviously, but they have such an intricate understanding of that subject that they might sometimes, if they're not careful, confuse their student. And I think Lewis is saying, I'm right there with you. I'm trying to figure out the same thing. This matters to me in the way it matters to you. And that's, of course, not to hate on professional theologians. But I think that's how he saw himself, and that's why he was so successful.
- [19:16]
Walter Strickland
One of the things that strikes me, too, is beauty. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, Sophia. It seems like right to the very end, he goes back to the beginning of what he couldn't shake, even as an atheist, that these intimations of beauty. And one of the things that has really struck me is how a lot of apologetics today is true and good, but not very beautiful, especially in Protestant circles. You know, we really don't do as well trying to talk to people about beauty. I paraphrase, because I don't have the quote. Maybe you have it right on the tip of your tongue. But where he says, if you have these intimations of beauty and this drive toward beauty, it must exist. And that just strikes me. Another one. You want to present the gospel in such a way that people would wish it were true even if they couldn't believe it.
- [20:32]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah. He did say when he was an atheist, he didn't believe in God, but he was very mad at God for not existing. And I think that.
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Mike Horton
Oh, my.
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Bob Hiller
Solid.
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Mike Horton
That is awesome. That's the quote of the episode right there.
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Sophia Holcomb
Yeah. Yeah. I think that hits at what you're saying. And then he also said, if I find a desire in myself which nothing in this world can satisfy, that must mean I was made for another world.
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Walter Strickland
That's the one.
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Sophia Holcomb
So, yeah, the aesthetic apologetics of there's beauty. What do we do with that?
- [21:01]
Justin Holcomb
There's also Till we have Faces. This is one of my. I think this is Till we have Faces, because I wrote it down after one of our conversations. It was when I was happiest that I longed the most. The sweetest thing in all my life has been the longing to find a place where all the beauty came from.
- [21:17]
Walter Strickland
Wow.
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Justin Holcomb
Is that until we have Faces?
- [21:19]
Sophia Holcomb
Oh, yeah. That's psyche.
- [21:22]
Justin Holcomb
Okay. I thought that was because I have some quotes written down from my Sophia reading list.
- [21:28]
Walter Strickland
That's a beautiful one.
- [21:29]
Bob Hiller
All right, then, so let's talk some of these. I mean, we're kind of getting at it here. But if you guys had to recommend one nonfiction book to the listener, what's a nonfiction thing you think everybody should read from C.S. lewis? Or at least what's your favorite one? And we'll just kind of go around the horn here and see what you guys say.
- [21:48]
Mike Horton
So I'll just start, because we've already said my favorite one. Mine was screwtape letters. You know, I'm one of those Americans that helped make him famous. Well, not necessarily I helped keep him famous because I was too young or just born too late to make him famous originally. But yeah, so I think the insight I got from that book is exactly what he was shooting for. You know, it's. It made me more sober, mindful, and watchful of my adversary because he's prowling around like a roaring lion ready to destroy me and devour me. And I never really thought about the subtle tactics that the adversary would use to just draw me into seduction and hearing wormwood. Being tutored in this way, it was just. It was so eye opening for me. I think for me, the adversary sort of hides himself in a veneer of goodness and then I sort of reach for it, take the bait, and get and get the hook is what I get. So I just thought that the adversary would show up in like, with horns and a pitchfork in my face and saying, oh, I'm the devil, you know? But this book was so helpful to me. The subtlety of temptation and the subtlety of speaking spiritual warfare I think is a great takeaway that I got from this book.
- [23:12]
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- [24:08]
Walter Strickland
Yeah, I'm with you on screwtape. Being in the. For me, it's at the top. But the number one for me has to be the weight of glory. Yeah, it's good. It just opens up your mind to what no eye has seen or no ear heard that God has prepared for those who love him. You know, taking off from Paul's statement that this light and momentary affliction is nothing compared to the weight of glory that will be revealed in us. We have no idea what we will be. We will be beautiful. We will not only merge with beauty, we will be beautiful ourselves. And. That isn't a lightness. That is. I mean, glory actually means heavy. And this is something heavy laid upon us. But like a crown and a robe rather than a cross and a crown of thorns.
- [25:14]
Bob Hiller
Mike, what's the quote you used from that article? The mud pie quote.
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Walter Strickland
Oh, yeah. We're like, it's not that our desires are too strong, they're too weak. We're like children making mud pies in the slums when we could be having a holiday at the sea.
- [25:31]
Bob Hiller
That's a quote that I've heard you say a number of times. And then I read the Weight of Glory and it's like, wow, CS Lewis is ripping off Horton. How about this? That's really quite something there.
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Justin Holcomb
Love it.
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Sophia Holcomb
Love it.
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Walter Strickland
Well, and that's great because, you know, a lot of people think, okay, well I have to Christianity. This is Nietzsche's critique of Christianity. But it's what you get on the street too. Christianity is a buzz killer. It's just don't have fun, don't desire anything. It just kills all desire and passion. But no, I love this paradox that it's actually weak minded and slothful and fearful to be an atheist. It actually takes courage to believe in God and it takes courage to follow God because I don't really have to do anything different from who I am and what I think in order to just lay on my couch and dispute God's existence. And so I just, I love his emphasis there that actually we have more desires than we're aware of and we have more fulfillment of our desires in God, in Christ than we can possibly imagine.
- [26:58]
Bob Hiller
That's great, Sophie. I think I asked the question favors nonfiction. I meant non Narnian. So any of anything is on the table here. Sophia, what is your. What is your favorite outside of the Chronicles?
- [27:10]
Sophia Holcomb
My favorite is what I call my unorthodox on ramp to reading Lewis. It's a. A Grief Observed. I read that in tandem with Mere Christianity. So I read Mere Christianity and blown away by his conviction of how true Christianity was. And then I read A Grief Observed and was simultaneously blown away by his doubt that he was feeling. And a lot of people read that and think Lewis lost his faith. But I read that as him holding doubt and faith not as opposites and not doubt being the antithesis to faith, but intention and that we're invited to ask questions. And that was the book that also set me on my Joy Davidman research and all of that. But that was when I was like, I should listen to this guy. He has important things to say. And I think he's thinking about Christianity in a way that I've been thinking about and Thinking this is the wrong way to do it. But he's telling me it's okay to feel that way. And so, yeah, I just got on.
- [28:13]
Mike Horton
Board after that just to sort of continue on with the grief. Observe train. I was blown away by this little book. My copy's 74 pages or so. When I was a young pastor and I was helping a family through a loss at that point I had both parents, I had all my grandparents, all my siblings, all my aunts and uncles, we're all still living, all my cousins, first and second cousins. So I'd really never had to grapple with loss in that way. And when I read the book, I was, I felt this tension and I felt like as I was reading Lewis's words, I was kind of teetering on the cliff of him losing his faith. I mean, I was feeling it. I'm like, I mean, I was reading my notes in the margins just yesterday, preparing for our conversation today and I was really worried if he was going to make it to the end. I thought the book was so short because he quit. But the reality was is that that helped me tremendously as I was helping come alongside somebody who had lost somebody as a 22 year old pastoral intern.
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Sola Media Announcer
Good.
- [29:20]
Justin Holcomb
Mine is, yeah, mine. Well, it's funny because I remember when Sophia read Til Grief Observed because that was one of our first conversations where we really dove in and she was like, so I read that and because the story I have with that was. I remember where I was when I read that book. I read Sheldon Van Aken's Severe Mercy and saw the story that was there and then some of the letters from C.S. lewis and I was in a Barnes and Noble in Atlanta when I was doing my PhD there and I read that book there and then I just went and grabbed Grief Observed. And I sat there in the Barnes and Noble in the middle of the Starbucks in the Barnes and Noble or whatever it was, sobbing. And I remember a group of like there was like a group of women having a Bible study and one of them came over and said, we are so curious. What in the world are you reading that's causing you to sit here as a mid 20 year old guy just sitting here crying in the middle. They didn't know that I'm a crier anyway, so I was like, that's not. But this was fun hearing Sophia say that answer to me. My favorite, and this is just really personal is Till we have Faces because it's I think Sophia's favorite. And I like reading. You know, I read again To Kill a Mockingbird, when she was like, I love reading this. Read it with me. So read it. This one. And because it goes through belief, it goes through identity, desire, the unveiled self, and it's looking at according to nature. So I teach philosophy and apologetics at Reformed Theological Seminary, and it was just fun seeing him do this. And when I knew what he was doing, when Sophia kind of coached me through it, she didn't tell me what was happening. So that one. And because it has a very kind of Bonhoeffer. Bonhoeffer has this beautiful poem called who Am I? And the Feel of Augustine on Love and Affection with Bonhoeffer on who Am I? Just kind of converge for Till we have Faces. So it's my. It's my. My new favorite. But that's also because it. I remember finishing it when I was on vacation and family vacation and sat there and jumped in the pool with Sophia. And we went off to the edge of the pool, and I was like, okay, let's talk. Like, we got to unpack this. So. So cool. That's mine.
- [31:37]
Bob Hiller
Those are all good answers there. I think they're. They're the. I was thinking about this. I've really been wrestling with this question. For me, the answer is always the last thing I read by CS Lewis is my favorite thing that he wrote, because I'm just. I remember I was reading Surprised by Joy once, and I got halfway through, and I thought this might be the one that I'm not that big of a fan of. And by the end, I'm, like, sitting on my kitchen floor like, I can't believe how good that was. It was so great. The one that I think has been most formative for me and that I go back to a lot of. Lot two of them. The Four Loves. I think the Four Loves is such a useful and thoughtful book in thinking about love, that the chapter on male friend. Well, friendship in general, but male friendship is, I. I think, something that's. That's sorely lost in the world right now. And. And Lewis saw that and was able to speak into that in a pretty profound way. The line where he and I. This may not be Louis. He may have taken this from. From Aristotle or something, but that friends stand shoulder to shoulder, but lovers stand face to face. And I use that with my premarital counseling. I say, you guys aren't friends anymore. In the same way you're friends. You're gonna. You're gonna be getting along. It's good. You should like the same things, but you now stand face to face. And you live self. Sacrificially for each other, whereas friends, they're united by a common cause, a common. Like a common thing. And it develops into something far more profound and deep and beautiful. So I. I think the Four Loves is a really, really important book and one. I just. I can't seem to get enough of the. The. The audio of it. Correct me on this, Sophia. It's not the book, is it?
- [33:21]
Sophia Holcomb
It's himself.
- [33:23]
Bob Hiller
Yeah. And he's not reading the book. He's setting like the stage for it or something like that.
- [33:27]
Sophia Holcomb
He's. What happened was he was invited by one of the bishops from the Diocese of Central Florida.
- [33:35]
Justin Holcomb
Whoop, whoop.
- [33:36]
Sophia Holcomb
There you go. Oh, come on.
- [33:39]
Justin Holcomb
All right. That was an elevator. I did not set this up on purpose.
- [33:45]
Sophia Holcomb
So I believe it was Lowitt that asked him loud.
- [33:49]
Justin Holcomb
It. Yeah, I think it was Bishop Loudett, the second bishop of the Diocese of Central Florida, your dad being the fifth.
- [33:58]
Bob Hiller
Who have you invited in? That's interesting. That's what I wanna know.
- [34:00]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah. No. C.S. lewis's. But I'm kidding. They're all fantastic. But he was asked to give a talk similar to the kinds he did on Mere Christianity. And Lewis said, okay, the four words in Greek for love. And so he recorded them in London, I believe. 4. And they were. The one on Eros was censored in America because it was to scandalize American. It was. His wife, Joy Davidman actually has hilarious letters about this, writing to one of her friends, Chad Walsh, about how absurd. Like Americans should be able to handle it.
- [34:34]
Justin Holcomb
The Episcopal Radio TV foundation was horrified by this because it was scandal.
- [34:41]
Walter Strickland
Well, that foundation has come a long way. Huh?
- [34:48]
Mike Horton
Well, there we go, Justin.
- [34:52]
Bob Hiller
Oh, that's outstanding. So, all right, so now I want to ask this question. Some of the stuff we come across in Lewis. I. I think Lewis is probably perhaps the most important thinker of the 20th and really into the 21st century. He saw things coming that a lot of other people didn't see. Obviously, we love Lewis, but there are some things he says that are a little unorthodox. His views on the free will, I think a lot of us would take some issue with, or some of his views of creation are kind of controversial. How do we engage that stuff? How do we talk about those things in a manner that's respectful of Lewis, but also we kind of recognize there's some things we want to kind of not be on the same page with.
- [35:39]
Justin Holcomb
He was wrong.
- [35:40]
Bob Hiller
Yeah. I mean, I think. I don't mean to just jump on that. But yeah, and that's okay. It's okay for us to engage with people. I've just been seeing this more lately where people are like, well, you know, C.S. lewis, you really shouldn't read him because of. And it's like, we're not. Stop treating us like we're dumb. I mean, we should engage the thoughts of people even that we might not see eye to eye with them on.
- [36:06]
Walter Strickland
Every single doctrine, on every single thing, including pagans. I love the line Calvin gives to the Anabaptists that it is pure superstition that disallows gleaning the truth even from heathen authors.
- [36:23]
Bob Hiller
That's great.
- [36:24]
Walter Strickland
Well, if that. I mean, good grief. If we can learn from Plato and Aristotle and Wittgenstein, then certainly we can learn from one of our own brothers who never claimed to be a theologian and said a lot of things. A lot of his most controversial things he either veiled or explicitly said. This is just. I'm throwing it out there, throwing it on the wall, see if it sticks. Is that fair, Sophia?
- [36:55]
Sophia Holcomb
I think, yes, I think that's fair. And to what your point about pagans? He called himself a converted pagan living in a land of apostate Puritans. So I just want to throw that out there as a add on to your quote. Isn't that great?
- [37:12]
Bob Hiller
He could even thrive in the world of Twitter. I mean, like, these are great one liners. They are.
- [37:17]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah. His Twitter would have been fantastic. But yes, I agree. I think he welcomed debate and people think he was beat in a debate by Elizabeth Anscombe. And everyone's like, he was so embarrassed to be beaten by a woman in a debate. No, he welcomed that. He welcomed challenges. He rewrote part of his book after that.
- [37:36]
Bob Hiller
Interesting.
- [37:37]
Sophia Holcomb
I think if we do it in a respectful way, because he was a real person, if we don't hail him as a perfect man, we recognize he did a lot of good, but then we can disagree with him. I think that's the most respectful because Lewis would hate if we were calling him God and that what he says is ultimate truth. I think he would respect us for respecting him in that way.
- [38:03]
Walter Strickland
Does any of us have a hero we agree with on every page?
- [38:09]
Justin Holcomb
No, no, no. And this was when you asked the question, Bob, there. Years. Years may have been like 10, 15 years ago. There was a. A conference on CS Lewis by. I don't know which one, but it was like, like a basically reformed organization. And they got flack for it. They're like, what are you doing? He's an Armenian. You can't. And he doesn't have the same exact doctrine of scripture.
- [38:36]
Walter Strickland
That's just fundamentalism.
- [38:37]
Justin Holcomb
Therefore, they got criticized and they're like, wait a second. He's a brother who says a lot of great things that because of his ministry, thousands of people might know about the gospel and be in heaven. So I love your question because it's like, well, let's let him be wrong. And Sophia regularly, she's like, she'll say, man, I think C.S. lewis would be going crazy with the hagiography that is happening here. I mean, there's.
- [39:05]
Sophia Holcomb
I always. Yeah, I love Lewis conferences, but I always joke he'd be the first person to leave because he'd be like, guys, tone it down. And that's not to say I don't love them.
- [39:13]
Bob Hiller
But he had something, the Socratic club. Does this sound familiar? Like, he had debates where he would bring in atheists.
- [39:22]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah.
- [39:22]
Bob Hiller
And he would. So he would host these conversations with very differing viewpoints and encourage that. And then I guess if. If I understand it correctly, he would stand up at the end and kind of tell you why the atheists are wrong. But nonetheless, he was still hosting. Like, you're going to get stronger and more thoughtful and more intelligent in your views if you're engaging opposition. And really, you have to understand, why is CS Lewis talking about free will? You can't just be like, well, that's not. That's.
- [39:51]
Justin Holcomb
That's.
- [39:52]
Bob Hiller
That's. That's Armenian. Like, you can't just label it. You've got to actually engage his thought process on it and where he's coming from.
- [39:57]
Walter Strickland
Well, don't you have a tension in Lewis? On the one hand, yeah, there is this sort of, okay, that's the freedom of the will. And then at other times, like the Hound of Heaven, I felt something pulling on the other end. I couldn't say no. I found myself overwhelmed, overtaken by the beauty. Isn't that true that, once again, first of all, he was in the Church of England and to hold views as close to the Reformation as he held was itself not something in his day that would have been quite popular. So putting him in this context, can't we say, well, he's a layman wrestling with these issues and never claimed to have a sort of systematic theology.
- [40:55]
Justin Holcomb
And even his conversion story has a little bit of that. Like, he showed up and he didn't reason his way into this. It wasn't like, there's his reason and his will weren't somehow less tainted by sin. And he kind of figured it out. It was like. It was very ordinary. He's in a sidecar, and all of a sudden he's like, I believe Jesus is the Son of God now. Like, how did this. I mean, it was like waking up. Waking up? Yeah, like waking up. Like, almost. Almost sounds like regeneration imagery.
- [41:22]
Sophia Holcomb
There.
- [41:23]
Bob Hiller
There's. He does a good job, though, too, with. With the whole concept of mere Christianity. And if you. One of the great things that folks should probably read is his introduction to on the Incarnation by Athanasius. Yeah, that introduction is just tremendous. But he talks in there about there will probably come a time when we're looking back on Christianity and these different factions that are arguing, which have legitimate arguments. And he's not dismissing any of it. They have legitimate differences in arguments to have. But I think we sometimes forget just how much closer they are to each other than they want to perhaps admit in the throes of battle. And the point there not being we can dismiss doctrinal differences, but the point being that Lewis could sit back and say, look, we're kind of not eat our own here. We're fighting the same war. We've got to get to the Incarnation, the dying and rising of Jesus Christ for our salvation. And not that these other doctrines are minute, and I don't want to get tagged for saying that, but I do think Lewis is going to be far more generous in his. In his engagement and his thought. And so perhaps we owe him the same generosity as we read what he has to say.
- [42:36]
Justin Holcomb
Yep. Before we. You know, I know we're talking about things where we disagree, but I want to come back at one. I need to fix something. It was the first bishop. Bishop lauded. Falwell was the second bishop. So just. You can send your. Your personal tithe to the Diocese of Central Florida, Bob, to pay back the. As just an honorarium or gift back to the diocese for the four loves. If you wanted to do that, or you can just send it to me, I'll be okay with that, too.
- [43:00]
Bob Hiller
You got it.
- [43:01]
Justin Holcomb
Okay. But seriously, I want to encourage people to look at some of his essays, too, because he does some really brilliant work. And this one is theology. Poetry is in the weight of glory. The collected. And he has this line. This line changed. God used this line for me. I was going to go engineering, study mathematics. In this line, I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen, not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. I love that line. Made me want to study theology. I remember Talking to my mom and dad. And they said, so you're not going to go do this math engineering thing? I said, no, I want to go to Bible college. And they were like, okay. I was like. They said, why? And I said, because I don't want to just study what the son shows. I want to study the son who makes everything seen. That's how I help process why was theology meaningful to me? And I want to encourage people also to go see. Go read the Seeing Eye. This is where he talks about how it was right when the Russian cosmonaut went up to space and said, you know, I didn't see God up there. And I love CS Lewis is like, you idiot. Like, this is not how this works. It's like, just like Hamlet and Shakespeare. He says, if the only way he's ever going to meet Shakespeare is if Shakespeare writes himself into the play. In other words, Shakespeare created Hamlet. And if Hamlet's going to know anything about Shakespeare, Shakespeare's going to have to write himself in. And that's just a really beautiful, fun essay to read. And that's where Dorothy Sayre. There's some stuff there on Dorothy Sayre and how she wrote herself into one of her novels for one of her characters that she wanted to go rescue. And there's a beautiful picture of incarnation there. But one last one, just for me. One of my favorite parts in all of Lewis comes from the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. And it's right when Edmund had betrayed his siblings, goaded on by the White Witch for Turkish Delight, which we talked about in the first episode, just kind of how silly it is. And when you were talking about it, Mike, I couldn't help but think about this. And the entire narrative is leading up to him just being this brat who's treasonous and he's silly and he sells out people for stupid things, which is exactly what it feels like when we sin. And it's just. It's almost like how ridiculous we are. And then Aslan goes off, the ruler of Narnia, who goes off to this sheepish Edmund off in the distance. And then he walks him back. He walks Edmund back to his family, and he says, here is your brother, and there's no need to talk to him about what has passed. That is. Come on.
- [45:46]
Bob Hiller
That's good.
- [45:47]
Walter Strickland
That's gold.
- [45:48]
Justin Holcomb
That's a man who knows the freedom of forgiveness and the hope of the gospel. That's what people need to hear. That's what I need to hear. Here's your brother. There's no need to talk to him about what has passed. It's taken care of.
- [46:02]
Walter Strickland
That's the kind of command of the imagination, that for all his rational abilities, he wasn't a rationalist. He really does touch the heart. He wasn't trying to touch the heart. In fact, he said, you can't go looking for happiness. You have to look for something else, and then you find happiness. But I guess for me, one of the most influential essays is in that. The collection God in the Dock, Myth Became Fact. And the first program we were talking about how he assimilates pagan myths to Christianity. Not vice versa. Not assimilates, but alludes to, brings in and shows how. Yeah, there's a little bit of that in Christianity, but, oh, a lot more where that came from. It's sort of like biblical prophecy. David is a forerunner of Christ, but then you realize he's a mess. He's obviously not the Messiah, Cyrus. And then you get all these people. Then finally Cinderella comes and the slipper fits. And that's how Lewis talks about the relationship between Christianity and mythology in that piece. It's historical myth Became fact.
- [47:28]
Bob Hiller
Sophia, you got an essay you want to recommend?
- [47:31]
Sophia Holcomb
Oh, well, I love the Seeing Eye. There's one called. It Might be Man versus Rabbit, or Man and the Rabbit. And it's about. It deals with the dignity of humans and how God relates to humans and being created in the image of God. You're not a rabbit. You're not an ostrich with your head in the sand. So it's like. It's basically a call to action to pay attention to reality, but then to also realize that God pays attention to you in the sense that he cares about you far more than he cares about the sparrow. So I think it's a weird title. You don't expect it to be something like that, but the end is so moving, and it's really short and pithy in the sense, like, it moves very quickly. But I think it's a really interesting exposition on being created in God's image.
- [48:17]
Bob Hiller
That's good. I have not read that one. That will be this afternoon. That's what I'm gonna go read. I. I like. I like learning in a time of war. Just as a pastor, it's very easy to be blown by every wind that. That. What's the big drama today? What do I have to address in the culture today? What's the big motion that. That everyone's worried about? But Lewis says, like, look, you've. You've been given a particular vocation and a particular Calling as a student to learn math, like it matters now as much as it matters outside of wartime. Like it doesn't. You stay the course of the calling God has given you. Basically. I think it's. It's a really interesting essay. And the other one I really like is Christianity and Literature, where Luther Lewis is invited to talk about Christian literature, and he's addressing this, and he's like, I'm not really sure, like, how I'm supposed to talk about quote, unquote, Christian literature. He's like, I think Christian literature can exist in the same sense in which Christian cookery might exist. It would be possible, it might be edifying to write a Christian cookery book. Such a book would exclude dishes whose preparation involves unnecessary human labor or animal suffering and dishes excessively luxurious. That is to say, it's a choice of dishes would be Christian. But there could be nothing specifically Christian about the actual cooking of the dishes included, because boiling an egg is the same process whether you're a Christian or a pagan. I really like that line. It's one of my favorite lines.
- [49:43]
Sophia Holcomb
Listen, I'd like to add an addendum to what I said about. It's man or rabbit. And a better summary might be to say it's about becoming fully human and the goodness of that. I just want to make sure I clarify that for listeners.
- [49:55]
Bob Hiller
Sophia, where's the essay located?
- [49:57]
Sophia Holcomb
God in the dock. It's in a lot of collections. Yeah, okay.
- [49:59]
Justin Holcomb
Yeah, yeah. And that's where he. The question is not, can I be good without Christianity, but is Christianity true? We were made to know and enjoy God. So settling for nice is like a rab who is safe, small, and satisfied with carrots but not being truly human.
- [50:19]
Sophia Holcomb
Kind of like what you said about being satisfied with mud pies instead of the holiday at the sea. It's all over it. Yeah.
- [50:26]
Bob Hiller
Well, friends, if nothing else, I hope these last two episodes of the year have whet your appetite to dive into some CS Lewis. Sophia, this has been some of the most fun we've had on White Horse. This is great. Thank you so much.
- [50:37]
Sophia Holcomb
Thank you for having me for being.
- [50:38]
Bob Hiller
A part of this.
- [50:39]
Walter Strickland
Thank you so much for your research. Yeah, fantastic.
- [50:42]
Sophia Holcomb
It's my pleasure. I love this stuff, so it's very exciting to talk about it with people who know so well.
- [50:47]
Bob Hiller
Thank you for doing it. Listen, friends, if you're looking for a good book in the new year, looking you're setting up your reading goals, you good pietists, pick up some CS Lewis. All right? Revisit Narnia work through a collection of his essays, Wrestle through the Abolition of Man. I will warn you, reading it is not necessarily safe, but it is good. Happy New Year.
- [51:15]
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