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- [00:00]
Host/Announcer
In a world drowning in confusion and false teaching, faithful voices have never been more critical. For 35 years, Sola Media has stood as that voice, helping Christians to know what you believe and why you believe it. But we're not just looking back. We're looking ahead to the millions who still need to hear the gospel proclaimed clearly and defended boldly. Will you join us in this critical work? Your generous support will help us expand our apologetics content to reach seekers and strengthen believers, enhance our digital platforms to engage younger generations where they are, and strengthen partnerships that multiply our gospel impact. To fuel another 35 years of reformation in hearts, homes and churches, visit solarmedia.org reformation and give today.
- [00:51]
Sophia Holcomb
A lot of people say Tolkien really disliked Narnia, which I think is what you're getting at. He liked it. He disliked it for the amount of mythology that was being combined in a story that didn't really have a straightforward history, a straightforward plot. Because if you read Lord of the Rings, he has footnotes, for goodness sake, about everything and the history of everything. And then another thing, it's really nuanced because Tolkien read Narnia before Aslan was part of the story. And he was really concerned about. He was really concerned about the faun narrative, because in mythology, fauns are quite unsavory characters.
- [01:26]
Mike Horton
Interesting.
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Sophia Holcomb
And so he got to the part where they're examining the fauns bookshelf. Lucy's looking at the bookshelf and it says the love life of fauns. And Tolkien, I imagine, snapped the book shut and was like, none of that. And so that's the nub of the falling out. I wouldn't necessarily call it a falling out, but a disagreement that I think got blown a bit out of proportion.
- [01:50]
Bob Hiller
Huh.
- [01:51]
Mike Horton
Fascinating.
- [01:51]
Walter Strickland
Fascinating.
- [02:04]
Host/Announcer
Applying the riches of the Reformation to the modern church. This is White Horse Inn, a weekly roundtable discussion about theology and culture.
- [02:19]
Bob Hiller
Hello and welcome to White Horse Inn. Merry Christmas, everybody. We're beginning a new series on the theology of C.S. lewis. How does a once atheist Oxford Don become the storyteller who gave us Aslan? And how did that conversion shape what he wrote? How did CS Lewis begin writing the famous Chronicles of Narnia? In this episode, we're looking at how Lewis develops a theology in the Chronicles of Narnia around core doctrines, creation, sin, atonement, Christology, and the new heavens and new Earth. And to have this conversation are Mike Horton, Bob Hiller, and Walter Strickland. But we have a special guest, my daughter, Sophia Holcomb. And I am so thrilled to Introduce her. This is a proud dad and thrilled to have this conversation with her. Sophia is an 11th grader at the Geneva School. She's interested in classics, which includes Greek and Roman language and history. She's joining us because the next two episodes are on CS Lewis, and she is my Go to Lewis Scholar. And I'm not saying that as dad exaggeration regularly for years. I'll go out and grab a cigar and a bourbon and she'll come out and we'll just start talking about which one of the books CS Lewis is reading and everything she's learning and then the books about C.S. lewis. She has read all of Lewis's works except for some of the technical literary criticism works such as Allegory of Love, Preface to Paradise, Loss, the Discarded Image, Spencer's Images of Life in the English literature in the 16th century, excluding drama. At her high school, she's taken three courses on the life and works of C.S. lewis. In the summer of 2024, she studied at Wheaton College and took a college course during the summer called Philosophy and Imagination in the works of C.S. lewis. She last summer was awarded the William George Shuster Research Grant for Young Scholars, and that granted her a chance to spend a week with me at the Wade center at Wheaton College so she could continue her research on Joy Davidman, C.S. lewis's wife, and her journey from atheism and communism to Christianity. She's presented a few papers at C.S. lewis conferences. Two years ago, it was the four loves reflected in the Chronicles of Narnia, and most recently it was Lewis's use of literature to respond to personal tragedies in his life. You can check her out on her substack. But Sophia, thank you for joining us. I'm so proud of you and I'm glad that my white horse and friends get to meet you and that the listeners get to learn from you. So instead of listening to me cry out of pride for you, let me ask you a question just to kind of get us started, to teach us about C.S. lewis, who is C.S. lewis. And please start with the basics. Don't assume anything.
- [05:10]
Sophia Holcomb
Okay, so CS Lewis, Clive Staples Lewis, was known as Jack to his friends and family. He. He was born in Belfast, Ireland, in 1898, and a lesser known fact about him is that he fought in World War I and was wounded and he carried shrapnel in his body till the day of his death. And so today he's known as one of the greatest lay theologians of the 20th century. And I would like to emphasize the Word lay in that title. He wasn't a professional or trained theologian. He was actually a medievalist by trade. He was an English literature tutor and professor, and he wrote some of the work that is still definitive in this field today. He wrote the Allegory of Love, an Oxford English history of English literature in the 16th century, excluding drama, and in many universities that's still the go to. But despite being the definitive author for works like that, he's most well known for his children's novels and his book Mere Christianity. He also wrote over 30 books, along with poetry, letters and multiple volumes and a lot of essays that were published posthumously. Regarding his career. He was a tutor at Magdalen College, Oxford from about 1925 to 1954, and in 1954 he finally achieved a professorship at Cambridge. He was denied a professorship three times at Oxford because of his popular Christian writing, because that was not the fashion for an Oxford don to publish outside of his field and also to publish at the popular level. And so at Cambridge he held the chair made specifically for him called the Chair of Medieval and Renaissance Literature. Until his retirement. He was very close friends with JRR Tolkien, another very well known author, and with Tolkien, he was a member of a literary circle in Oxford called the Inklings. And their goal was to integrate faith and imagination into writing literature, the kind of literature they wanted to read. A minist that he had that kind of fell upon him, he didn't really seek this out was that when he became famous specifically in America, his fans started writing him letters and he would receive hundreds of letters a year. But what's interesting is he replied to every single one of them. And one of these letters he received was from an American writer named Joy Davidman. And he would later eventually marry Joy, and they were married for three years before her death in 1960 of cancer. But while they were married and before they were married, they collaborated on some of his later works, specifically Til have Faces. After the Inklings had ended, it was a personal inkling, which is a really fantastic story that I encourage listeners to go learn about and research. And so when she died in 1960, he was left with two stepsons that he raised on his own. And then Lewis died in Oxford, England, just shy of his 65th birthday on November 22, 1963, which interestingly is the same day JFK and Aldous Huxley died. And. And there's a fantastic book by Peter Kraft called Between Heaven and Hell that is a dialogue between those three men and their various religious viewpoints that I would also encourage Listeners to check out. It's a really interesting book.
- [08:26]
Bob Hiller
Thank you for the intro on C.S. lewis and his life. Can you tell us about his conversion to Christianity?
- [08:33]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah. So Lewis, like I said, was born in Belfast, but he was born into a Christian family. And his grandfather was a priest and rector of a church in the Church of Ireland connected to the Church of England. But he had these experiences that began in childhood and lasted his entire life that would always kind of battle with his materialist and atheistic worldview. He called it joy, but it was these longings for the supernatural or experiences of beauty that he could not explain empirically or scientifically that seemed to point to something beyond the material reality. And. And this would bother him when he was an atheist because he just couldn't explain it. And Lewis was someone that really liked to have an explanation for everything. He prided himself on being a genius with a photographic memory. And so he had these experiences of beauty, aesthetic experiences. But the first strike against God was when his mother died when Lewis was nine years old. She died of cancer rather quickly, in a matter of weeks. And a matter of weeks after her death, Lewis was sent to boarding school. His father sent him away because his father didn't know how to deal with two sons in the midst of grief. And so Lewis was sent to these, honestly, pretty terrible boarding schools. And he didn't see any faith, real faith, portrayed in these schools. So it was easy to step away. And he began to view the world as cruel and meaningless. And so he turned to a materialist view of the world with reason being the highest form of knowledge. But along with that, he had this flirtation with the occult and interest in the supernatural because he had these experiences of longing. And he thought maybe this is the avenue for that. But he quickly came away from that after having several friends have bad psychological experiences connected with the occult. So even though Lewis didn't really want to believe in the supernatural, he also didn't want to experience any of that. So he gave it all up in favor of what he called the new look. And this was a mindset he adopted at university when he was at Oxford, which was a strict materialist and atheistic sensibility. None of this aesthetic apologetics, none of this beauty. He wasn't gonna bother with any of it. But then God invaded that worldview with authors like George MacDonald and G.K. chesterton. Of George MacDonald, he said his books baptized his imagination, although the rest of him took a little bit longer. And GK Chesterton, he loved GK Chesterton's reasoning In spite of him being a Christian, he thought his arguments were. He was good at arguing, he had good logic, but he had this quirk of being a Christian. And he began to notice that a lot of these authors he really liked had this annoying quirk and oddity of being a Christian. And he also began to think of books by authors that were atheists or non Christians as being thin and tinny and fluff. And so he said, I'll read the quote because I think this. He puts it perfectly. He said, a young man who wishes to remain astound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. So one of the things God used to get him on his side was his books. And another tactic God used was his friendships. And in about 1926, he became friends with Tolkien, who had the same odd quirk of being a reasonable Christian, a smart Christian, which was an oxymoron to Lewis at the time. And also around this time, one of the most hard bitten atheists that Lewis knew admitted to Lewis that there was good evidence for the Gospels that Jesus was who he said he was.
- [12:08]
Mike Horton
Oh, interesting.
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Sophia Holcomb
And Lewis was shaken by this. He was also shaken by the books he was reading. He was shaken by these smart Christians he was finding himself around. And so all of these factors converged upon him and he was still experiencing these longings and experiences of beauty that science could not explain. He refused to believe that his most profound thoughts were just atoms colliding in his skull. And so essentially all of this ganged up on him. And another quote by him, he puts it into words better than I can. He said, quote, that which I greatly feared had at last come upon me. I finally gave in and admitted that God was God and knelt and prayed, perhaps that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all England.
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Walter Strickland
That's great.
- [12:52]
Bob Hiller
Such a great quote.
- [12:53]
Sophia Holcomb
That is such a good quote. Yeah. And this happened about 1929, 1930. But this was just a conversion to theism. He reluctantly, as he said, believed that God existed. But he wouldn't call him God. He would call him either absolute or spirit, because that was safer. So you can really see this come back around in Chronicles of Narnia. He's not safe, but he's good. Lewis experienced that himself. So about a year later was when his conversion to Christianity took place. He was taking a walk with his friends Tolkien and Hugo Dyson, both Christians, both eventual inklings. And one of the things they were discussing was mythology. And it came around to how, discussing how much Lewis loved the myths of dying and rising gods. In every culture. He found it mysteriously moving, as he said. And Tolkien suggested that perhaps there was one true myth where a God died, came back to life, and thus doing so saved his people. And so this was called the true myth. And this planted a seed in Lewis's mind that came to fruition about eight days later, on September 28, 1931. Lewis was going to the zoo with his brother on his brother's motorcycle. Lewis was in his sidecar and they were going to Whipsnade Zoo. And again, I'll read the quote because it's just fantastic. So, quote, when we set out, I did not believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, but when we reached the zoo, I did. I had not exactly spent the journey in thought, nor in great emotion. Emotional is perhaps the last word we can apply in some of the most important events. It was more like when a man, after a long sleep, still lying motionless on the bed, becomes aware that he is now awake.
- [14:38]
Guest or Additional Panelist
Wow.
- [14:40]
Walter Strickland
What a great description of the new birth.
- [14:43]
Sophia Holcomb
Wow.
- [14:43]
Bob Hiller
Right, so now we have C.S. lewis, a Christian, an Oxford don, medieval specialist, medieval literature. How did he go to writing children's books? Children's literature, like the Chronicles of Narnia, which we're going to discuss for the rest of this episode.
- [15:03]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah. So the way Lewis came up with fiction specifically was he wouldn't have a coherent plot in the beginning. He would get an image in his mind, he would call it, like, bubbling up. And one of the images he had was in 1939 of a fawn walking through the snow carrying parcels. And he had this idea, but he kind of. He put it in a drawer and set it away. But then partially inspired by the children who were staying at the kilns during the evacuation of London during the Blitz in 1945-1949, he was inspired by them, wanted to entertain them in some way. So he started writing the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. He wrote it Fairly quickly, from 1949 to 1950 when it was published, and then the rest followed in quick succession until the seventh book came out in 1956. And a really important thing in a lot of the dialogue surrounding Chronicles of Narnia is that it's not an allegory. A lot of people refer to it as an allegory. And it's tempting, too, because Aslan is Jesus, Edmund is Judas, as some say the redemption plot, very much like the Christian narrative. But Lewis made it very clear that he wrote it as an imaginative supposal, which he would do in some of his later fiction or other fiction as well. And by that he meant that he imagined, what would Christianity be like if it were in Narnia? He created the world beforehand and then thought, what would Jesus be like if he were in this world? Well, we have talking animals, I suppose he'd be a lion. So Aslan kind of bounded in out of nowhere, as Lewis would say. So it was kind of a unexpected event combined with World War II, as a lot of his writing was inspired by World War II, which I think is really interesting.
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Bob Hiller
Yeah.
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Walter Strickland
Sofia, can I ask, you know, we often hear the story of Tolkien and Louis having a bit of a falling out over whether Louis was too allegorical, whether he was kind of. Well, anyway, is that true? And what was the nub of their disagreement, if they had it?
- [17:10]
Sophia Holcomb
So along with that, a lot of people say Tolkien really disliked Narnia, which I think is what you're getting at. He disliked it for the amount of mythology that was being combined in a story that didn't really have a straightforward history, a straightforward plot. Because if you read Lord of the Rings, he has footnotes, for goodness sake, about everything in the history of everything. And then another thing, it's really nuanced because Tolkien read Narnia before Aslan was part of the story, and he was really concerned about the faun narrative, because in mythology, fauns are quite unsavory characters.
- [17:47]
Mike Horton
Interesting.
- [17:48]
Sophia Holcomb
And so he got to the part where they're examining the fauns bookshelf. Lucy's looking at the bookshelf and it says, the love life of fauns. And Tolkien, I imagine, snapped the book shut and was like, none of that. And so that's the nub of the falling out. I wouldn't necessarily call it a falling out, but a disagreement that I think got blown a bit out of proportion.
- [18:12]
Walter Strickland
Fascinating, isn't it?
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Sophia Holcomb
Yeah.
- [18:14]
Guest or Additional Panelist
So just real quick, before we jump into some of the theology, there's some debate as well about the order of the books and how you should read. Very curious to hear your thoughts on that.
- [18:24]
Mike Horton
Yeah. And why is the right answer to start with lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe?
- [18:28]
Walter Strickland
That's what I asked, the question.
- [18:30]
Sophia Holcomb
Yes. Well, Lewis wrote a letter to a. He had a lot of correspondence with children writing fan mail about Narnia. And one he suggested to start with the Magician's Nephew, But I would remind listeners he's speaking to a young child, and if you start with Magician's Nephew, you get a coherent history of Narnia. But I think the way Lewis intended it, he wrote lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe first. And when he talks about Aslan showing up, he says, now you know just as much as these children about Aslan, which is nothing. And I think that adds to the experience of finding out who Aslan is because he describes how each of the children responded. And you miss out on so much beauty if you already know the creation story of Narnia. So I would encourage people to start with lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.
- [19:19]
Bob Hiller
Awesome.
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Guest or Additional Panelist
I appreciate that.
- [19:20]
Mike Horton
That's the right answer. Right answer.
- [19:28]
Host/Announcer
The five SOLAs of the Reformation brought essential truths of salvation and purpose into clear focus. These truths are just as critical to Christian life today as they were 500 years ago. Rediscover their meaning and relevance. In our newest booklet, the five Essential Truths for a Modern Reformation. Inside, you'll explore each of the five SOLAs. Grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, Scripture alone, and God's glory alone and why they still matter today. Support our work with a gift of any amount and we'll send you a copy. Visit solamidia.org offers to get yours today.
- [20:13]
Bob Hiller
So we're going to dive in guys, on this exploring of the theological contours of Narnia. So let's start with creation and Sophia, just because you started off doesn't mean you can't dive on in. So jump in anytime you want on the rest of this, but we'll start where, you know the, the Bible starts with God and creation.
- [20:33]
Walter Strickland
Yeah, I, I would be interested, Sophia, in your unpacking a little bit. God being not safe but good. Aslan being not safe but good. That runs throughout. I think of Jill at the stream, creeping toward the stream to get water and there Aslan shows up and she's terrified and says, do you eat little girls? And he says, I've eaten empires and da da, da, da. Well then I shan't come to the river. He says, you must come to the river. You must drink or you will die. And you get these pictures of not safe but good. Unpack that a little.
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Sophia Holcomb
Yeah. I think Lewis was big on humans relationship to God and the power that humans have in that relationship, which is interesting. So slightly Arminian, just slightly, but he was really. So he examined this in his later fiction. I find it helpful to think about if we're all camping and there's a fire that we're sitting around, the fire is good. We could almost say the fire loves us. It's providing heat, it's cooking our food. But then say, I don't know, my dad sticks his head in the Fire. He changed his way to.
- [21:50]
Walter Strickland
Which I've seen him do.
- [21:52]
Sophia Holcomb
That's why I picked him. Yeah. So, yeah, that would be changing your relationship to the fire. The fire provides these good things, but then it's also quite dangerous when you change your relationship to it. So Lewis was big on the response you have to God's pursuit of you. It's either the Hound of Heaven or it's this cat stalking a mouse. It's probably not great to compare God to a hungry cat, but. So I think that's the best way to think about it is that Lewis was examining how do humans respond to God's pursuit? And.
- [22:27]
Walter Strickland
Yeah, interesting.
- [22:28]
Bob Hiller
You also go back to the introduction of. With Mrs. Beaver. Mr. Beaver, you know, he's the king of. He's the king of the wood. He's the king of everything. Of course, he's not safe. He's good. This is the attributes of God. God is loving and holy. And it's not one or the other. God is both. And that's the kind of beautiful piece you see in this. Not safe, but good. I love starting with that for a lot of sermons because it's just. You can. You can go in so many directions, but it just. It makes it like he loves you. But he's holy. That's the problem.
- [23:02]
Walter Strickland
You can't control him.
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Guest or Additional Panelist
Exactly. Yeah.
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Mike Horton
Okay. So when you read the Chronicles, like, every book has. At least for me, every book has particular instances or images that. That just kind of haunt you in, like, the best possible way. And one of them is in the Magician's Nephew. We do begin with the creation of Narnia. Let's talk a little bit about, like, Aslan sings creation into existence, which I get choked up just thinking about that.
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Bob Hiller
That.
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Mike Horton
That creation is a beautiful song. What is it? One of the humans who comes in to that scene says, if I'd heard a song like that when I was a younger man, I would have been a better. Better person. Or something along these lines, like, there's something glorious about this song that brings creation to existence. What's the significance of that?
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Walter Strickland
Well, can I read? Can I read before Sophia. Before Sophia jumps in? Here's what this is from the magician's nephew. In the darkness, something was happening. At last, a voice had begun to sing. The most beautiful noise he had ever heard. It was so beautiful, he could hardly bear it. Then two wonders happened at the same moment. One was that the voice was suddenly joined by other voices, more voices than you could possibly count. They were in harmony with it, but far higher. Up the scale. Cold, tingling, silvery voices. The second wonder was that the blackness overhead all at once was blazing with stars. They didn't come out gently, one by one, as they do on a summer evening. One moment there had been nothing but darkness, next moment, a thousand, thousand thousands of points of light leaping out. If you'd seen and heard it, you would have felt quite certain that it was the stars themselves which were singing, and that it was the first voice, the deep one, which had made them appear and made them sing. The voice on the earth was now louder and more triumphant. But the voices in the sky, after singing loudly with it for a time, began to get fainter. All the time the voice went on singing. The eastern sky changed from white to pink, from pink to gold. The voice rose and rose till all the air was shaking with it. And just as it swelled to the mightiest and most glorious sound it had yet produced, the sun arose. The earth was of many colors. They were fresh, hot and vivid. They made you feel excited until you saw the singer himself. And then you forgot everything else. It was a lion. Huge, shaggy and bright. It stood facing the risen sun. Its mouth was wide open in. And it was about 300 yards away. And as he walked and sang, the valley grew green with grass. It spread out from the lion like a pool. It ran up the sides of the little hills like a wave. Soon there were other things besides grass. The slopes grew dark with heather. And when he burst into a rapid series of lighter notes, she was not surprised to see primroses suddenly appearing in every direction. But now the song had once more changed. It was more like what we would call a tune, but it was also far wilder. It made you want to run and jump and climb. Showers of birds came out of the trees. Butterflies fluttered. Bees got to work on the flowers as if they hadn't a second to lose. And now you could hardly hear the song of the lion. There was so much cawing, cooing, crowing, braying, neighing, baying, barking, lowing, bleating and trumpeting. Then there came a swift flash, like a fire. But it burnt nobody, either from the sky or from the lion itself. And every drop of blood tingled in the children's bodies. And the deepest, wildest voice they had ever heard was sang. Narnia, Narnia, Narnia. Awake, love, think. Speak. Be walking trees, be talking beasts, Be divine waters.
- [27:06]
Mike Horton
It's just. It's. It's like that scene with all the animals braying and naying. And then the lion, you see the Lion. It's like the Lion King with. But with better theology.
- [27:17]
Sophia Holcomb
Yes. Beautiful scene.
- [27:19]
Mike Horton
Like, everything is cohesive, everything's working together, coming around the one lion who's singing it all into existence. I love the line, too, where he says, you would think that the stars were singing. Like, he does this interesting thing throughout the books where he almost, like, gives a nod to paganism and saying, like, because Lewis will talk this way, that there's. There's hints of truth in everything. Right. So, like, you can almost see why the pagans would worship the stars and the sun, because they're these glorious things, until you see the one who sings them into existence and then they pale in comparison to. To the one who actually gave them life. And so. So this sort of overwhelming nature of the gospel and of the true king in the face of all of this doesn't diminish its beauty, but actually exemplifies the beauty of everything because of the glory of the lion, the glory of the true king. I think it's just wonderful.
- [28:16]
Guest or Additional Panelist
So is there something to be said about the fact that Aslan did create through song? Is there something to be said about his theology and relationship to beauty and order and divine speech and those sorts of things? Sophia?
- [28:29]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah, I think so. I think so. When Lewis talked about his experiences of joy, he would say, it's like the scent of a flower we have not found, news from a country we have not visited, and, like, a song we have not heard yet. And so I think this is the fruition of that song we have not heard yet. And going back, I'm glad that you mentioned paganism, because I was thinking as you were reading, that how Lewis was deeply familiar with mythology, and in a lot of myths, the gods create humans for a purpose, to serve them. It's all pointing back to the gods. They're not gifting the humans anything. The humans are a gift to the gods. But in this story where Aslan's singing, he's giving things to his subjects, the other animals.
- [29:15]
Mike Horton
Yeah, that's great.
- [29:16]
Sophia Holcomb
And I think that's important. I don't think that was a mistake.
- [29:19]
Mike Horton
Yeah, that's really insightful.
- [29:21]
Bob Hiller
Creation ex nihilo. I mean, this did not exist. He's not forming something. He's creating something out of nothing. And it's his word, it's creative word that is creating this, which is spectacular. It mirrors quite well. Yeah.
- [29:35]
Walter Strickland
And, you know, the idea of singing the world into existence doesn't seem far from the Psalms. It doesn't mention the heavens are singing the glory of God. They're telling the glory of God, but you can imagine it being sort of like call and response. You know, God is calling things into existence and then they're responding according to what he has called them in existence to be. He called dogs to come into existence and they started barking.
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Mike Horton
Yeah, yeah.
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Bob Hiller
So we. I mean, we have. There's so many theological topics. And what hangs out here is the original goodness of creation, which is something that we talk about quite a bit, that we don't start with depravity, we start with the original God. We start with God who created everything good. But something happened, evil and sin intrudes and is addressed. And Sophia, if you could. I remember talking with you a while ago about how the witch is viewed. So can you talk about quickly, kind of like curse and the witch. And then guys jump in on original sin or consequences of sin and the intrusion of sin into this good world of Narnia.
- [30:49]
Sophia Holcomb
So an important thing about Narnia is that it's not dualistic in the slightest. It's not good and evil are on the same playing field. The white witch, Jadis, in the lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe cast a spell over Narnia that gives a hundred years winter, never Christmas. But the whole time she seems super powerful to the children and scary, but she's deathly afraid of Aslan and she seems silly in her parody of what a queen is. And so she tempts one of the children, Edmund, that she'll give him all the riches, he'll be a prince alongside her if he betrays his siblings. And so he does. And the punishment for this Narnian law is the punishment for a traitor is death. But then Aslan talks about a deeper magic from before the dawn of time. And I've always read that deeper magic as the Proto Evangel. And it kind of comes through in the Magician's Nephew when he promises to Diggory that, yes, there's wrong in this world of Narnia, but I will make it right. So lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe is the gospel narrative of the Chronicles of Narnia, because Aslan promises to forgive Edmond, but not just forgive Edmond, to redeem all of Narnia, thus ending this witch's rule. And he does it quite easily, which is what I love about it. It's not like it took Aslan that much effort to. I mean, yes, he died. I'm not saying Jesus didn't take effort to save us, but relative, like he didn't have to fight a battle or a very long Battle, that is, he died and rose again and the witch was defeated like that.
- [32:25]
Mike Horton
There's that great scene in. In the Magician's Nephew where Jadis first sees Aslan and she's like, freaked out and somehow, you know, a lamppost, as it turns out, has come into the creation and she like, shucks the lamppost at Aslan and it just kind of bounces off of him. Like it does nothing to him.
- [32:42]
Sophia Holcomb
Right.
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Mike Horton
Like she had no ch against him from the beginning.
- [32:46]
Bob Hiller
Going back real quick to the point you made about the White Witch, about how she was kind of seen as goofy and not taken seriously because of. Kind of going back to your dualism point that they're not like Aslan and Jadus and somehow they're eternal powers fighting against each other. But there's almost the way she's portrayed. Can you say more about that real quick, Sofia?
- [33:07]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah, yeah. She has a chariot driven by these non talking animals, these wolves. She has gnomes that come to her aid and magic wand. So it's the stereotypical witch that Lewis is appealing to. It's not like he was very creative in coming up with her. She has this crown of ice. She sits on an ice throne. It's all very one to one. Like she's the Ice Queen. She's icy. She's not a very complex character. We don't really get her backstory that much. So I think it's almost comical in a very subtle way, because I think Lewis is not even paying much mind to her at all. It's that she's there and she's causing trouble. But Aslan's got it. He's got it under control.
- [33:48]
Bob Hiller
That's what it was. It was the comical nature that plays into the dualism. Almost the dismissive way, like, I will die. It's gonna be costly. But this is not a fair battle.
- [33:57]
Walter Strickland
Well, also, Edmund, so, you know, it's not just the sort of devil figure, it's also the Adam figure in the garden. It's pitiful. It's not that he acts out of courage. He acts out of weakness, not out of strength. He has everything that he needs. He is a prince of Narnia. And he nevertheless turns all of that over for some ridiculous fake promise from someone who thinks that she rules the kingdom. We're silly. It's not that we're smart and clever and strong and powerful, but when we turn away from God, we're just dumb.
- [34:44]
Sophia Holcomb
It's kind of like getting mad at the Israelites when you read Exodus for not listening to God. Or making idols. But then it's also very relatable in the same way.
- [34:54]
Mike Horton
Except for this. Except for this. Have any of you ever actually tried Turkish Delight?
- [35:00]
Bob Hiller
Yes, I like nasty.
- [35:01]
Sophia Holcomb
You like me? I used to hate it. And then you have to try not the rose flavor. The orange flavor is quite good.
- [35:08]
Mike Horton
Orange flavored Turkish Delight? You would sell out your family for orange flavored Turkish Delight?
- [35:13]
Sophia Holcomb
I would tolerate it. I would not sell out anybody for it, though.
- [35:16]
Bob Hiller
There you go.
- [35:18]
Guest or Additional Panelist
I was very underwhelmed myself.
- [35:21]
Bob Hiller
I want to hear from you guys, anything from you guys on either sin, evil or the redemption, atonement. Because, I mean, that's a huge piece that Sophia alluded to and mentioned, which is that dying in Edmund's place, it's substitution right there, which is interesting because that's not his go to. Which Sophia can talk about if she wants to, or you guys can talk about. But let's talk about that.
- [35:45]
Walter Strickland
It presupposes a curse. I mean, there is the law of Narnia that can't be bent, it can't be changed. But there is a deeper magic, you know, which presumably is the mercy of God, greater than all our sin.
- [36:03]
Guest or Additional Panelist
And this idea, I mean, I know you said it, but always winter, never Christmas. You know, there's a possibility of camping out there for a while and just talking about the fact that there's this, the curse, but there's no reprieve, there's no gem in that curse, which would be Christmas, you know, the winter, but never having any warmth or any redemption in that. And so that Christmas represents, in many ways, it just seems that that right there is just sort of sets the table for that. And I'll say it in scare quotes because of what you said, Justin, about Louis, that substitutionary sort of reality that we look ahead to. So that right there has a lot packed into it that helps us to anticipate some sort of redemption of some sort.
- [36:49]
Mike Horton
People get really irritated. They'll say, oh, this is kind of this Anselmian view. And I'm not sure I can totally explicate that perfectly. But the. The sort of penal substitutionary atonement where someone dies for the sake of someone else and someone takes a punishment for someone else. And theologians will argue over whether that's an accurate view within the scriptures. It is, but it's conversation for another time. But they'll get really upset that people say, well, Lewis's view of the atonement here is just so, like, it's only for one person, and it's not for Everybody. And it's just this substitutionary stuff that's so old and unnecessary. And to that I just want to say, you know, shut up.
- [37:33]
Sophia Holcomb
Enjoy a good book.
- [37:34]
Mike Horton
Like, one, it is great theology, and two, it is this great scene when those mice come and start chewing at the ropes and you're just like, the girls are weeping because you got the women basically at the tomb. I mean, it's just fantastic. And I agree with you, Sophia. Like, let's not go one to one allegory. But when you start to see the beauty of a powerful, an all powerful being willing to sacrifice for the sake of someone who's guilty, you're starting to smell the gospel. And it is just wonderful.
- [38:11]
Bob Hiller
And there's a distinction between the deeper magic and the deeper magic still also, which is, you know, deeper magic is justice, deeper magic still is grace and resurrection. And so that's pretty important for us to see. All right, we have a few more minutes. Let's talk about sanctification a little bit because there's, there's some other books. Prince Caspian, the Voyage of the Don Treader, Silver share. There's some examples of, of, of that. What do you guys want to talk about there?
- [38:40]
Mike Horton
The great scene from the Voyage of the Dawn Treader is Eustace becoming a dragon. That scene where he's, he's by the water and I mean, I think Louis does a great job multiple times with this water imagery when you, the changes seem to take place when somebody's at the pool, at the water. It's very baptismal. But Eustace has become a dragon by sleeping in a dragon's treasure because he hadn't read his books, the right kind of books anyways. And he finds out just how awful he is until Aslan basically forces him to peel the scales off of him. And I'm not remembering it perfectly right now.
- [39:19]
Walter Strickland
Doesn't Aslan do it himself?
- [39:20]
Mike Horton
Yeah, I think he does. He says, you have to let me do it for you, or something like this, and then cuts in and it's like the most painful thing. And yet at the same time, it's completely relieving.
- [39:31]
Bob Hiller
It's a beautiful picture of sanctification that is not safe. Tearing off your skin is not safe. But it is good when you have dragon skin.
- [39:38]
Walter Strickland
Yeah, yeah.
- [39:39]
Mike Horton
Which is a better picture of sanctification? Right. It's not this sort of delightful victory walk. But it's painful. Dying to yourself, it's painful.
- [39:50]
Walter Strickland
I'm not doing this to hurt you. I'm doing this to save you.
- [39:53]
Mike Horton
Yes, yes.
- [39:55]
Bob Hiller
Save you from your enemy. I've saved you from the guilt of your enemy and the curse of your enemy. I'm also saving you from your enemy that wants to destroy you right now.
- [40:03]
Walter Strickland
And the enemy that you have been to me, you know, from you, is my enemy. Yeah.
- [40:09]
Mike Horton
Sofia, what is your favorite of the Chronicles? Which one do you like the most?
- [40:14]
Sophia Holcomb
I love the Last Battle the most, I think.
- [40:16]
Bob Hiller
Oh, really?
- [40:17]
Sophia Holcomb
Yeah. Yes. It's a fantasy series, but that feels like the most realistic.
- [40:21]
Mike Horton
Agreed to me. Yep.
- [40:24]
Sophia Holcomb
I relate the most to that book. And the end is just fantastic. I mean, it's the best picture of heaven that I found anywhere in literature yet. I mean, I obviously haven't been there yet, but it's from what I read in the Bible. I think it's the closest on that point.
- [40:41]
Walter Strickland
Sofia. I've always wrestled with Lewis's fascination with Plato, and on the one hand, he does seem quite Platonic in terms of. So there are two different readings of Plato we don't have to go into. But one is that he actually does value the material world by seeing it as a shadow of the real world. The other reading is, well, it's just a shadow, so it isn't real. And so the trueness of the real world reduces this world to nothing but a shadow. But Lewis really seems to adjust that to a Christian perspective, does he not? It's not like Narnia is not on clouds somewhere. Narnia is not a spiritual reality that has no materiality to it. Doesn't Narnia get redeemed?
- [41:52]
Sophia Holcomb
Right. He does this in the Great Divorce as well. He emphasizes the realness of heaven and heavenly things. They're not less real, they're more real. And so I think it'd be fair. I don't want to make a definitive statement about how Lewis read Plato, but I think it would be fair to say that he read Plato as valuing the material world, not as the ultimate. Like the world of the forms is a very real reality according to Plato. And I think Lewis grabbed onto that and, like you said, adjusted it for a Christian worldview. And so he would view the world as shadowy in comparison to heaven. But Narnia is also redeemed and made more real because they. They go up a waterfall at the end. That wasn't how the laws of nature worked previously in Narnia. Narnia wasn't some place where you could just run without getting tired. These were things instituted by Aslan as he redeemed Narnia from the various enemies in the last Battle.
- [42:46]
Walter Strickland
So heaven and earth become one.
- [42:48]
Sophia Holcomb
Right?
- [42:49]
Walter Strickland
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be very different from Plato.
- [42:52]
Bob Hiller
So a perfected version of the old also. It's not a replacement of it, but a renewal of creation.
- [43:03]
Walter Strickland
I do love his. You know that right now, everything that we enjoy, it's very Augustinian. The faint music of a song we've never heard that you mentioned in a meal we haven't had. Every meal we have is kind of almost like jogging our memory of something that we know is real, we know is true. To my mind, it's a kind of good use of Platonism for Christian apologetics.
- [43:32]
Mike Horton
I will say this about that resurrection scene, the. The idea of further up and further in. I remember talking with somebody once and they were saying, heaven just seems like it's so boring. Like you just sit around all day and what do you do? Just, like, sing praise songs and stuff all day long. And Lewis's picture of. What did you say? Sophia? Running without getting tired. And that last scene, I mean, it's exhilarating, actually. His conception of the resurrection, the new heavens and new earth is. Lewis does for you what he himself has been feeling his whole life, like longing for that there's something greater out there. Like, I think Lewis is tapping into something there that you get in the Bible that actually the new creation is more exhilarating than you're actually ready for. It's going to be thrilling further up and further in. And we're not even ready for what. What awaits us.
- [44:24]
Bob Hiller
Well, we'll land that. We'll land here today. Louis Lewis hoped that Narnia would refres our imagination for the gospel that scripture proclaims. As we learned from Sophia, Aslan isn't a tame allegory. He's a signpost to the true lion of Judah, through whom all things were made, who bore our treachery in our place, who rose so that winter would not have the final word. And that's good news before. It's good advice. Promise before exhortation, mercy before metrics. And when kids and grownups feel the spell of cynicism, Lewis helps us hear again that the deeper magic in Narnia points us to the good news that God's justice is fulfilled in Christ so grace can be freely given. Sophia, thank you for setting the stage for us. That was a gift. And if today stirs your imagination and curiosity, listeners, don't turn this into a scavenger hunt for symbols. Let the stories drive you back to word and sacrament, where Christ actually gives what he promises. And again, from all of us. Merry Christmas from the White Horse Inn.
- [45:40]
Host/Announcer
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