Theology Q&A: Jonathan Edwards, Dispensationalism, Infant Baptism, and More

Summary

White Horse Inn – Theology Q&A: Jonathan Edwards, Dispensationalism, Infant Baptism, and More

February 1, 2026 | Hosts: Michael Horton, Justin Holcomb, Bob Hiller, Walter R. Strickland II

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Episode Overview

In this lively Q&A roundtable, the White Horse Inn crew responds to listener questions and comments drawn from their online platforms. The conversation covers a range of theological topics—ranging from the legacy of Jonathan Edwards, dispensationalism, deliverance ministries, and the meaning of infant baptism. The hosts bring wit, theological depth, and denominational perspective, emphasizing clarity, humility, and charity as they address hot-button issues while poking good-natured fun at themselves and each other.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who’s Most Likely to Become Catholic? (04:17–06:41)

• Listener Poll: A listener jokingly asks who among the four panelists will become Catholic first; the consensus points toward Justin Holcomb due to his "high view of tradition."
• Justin’s Response:
  • Affirms being “Catholic in the Nicene sense” (one holy catholic apostolic church), but remains devotedly Anglican.
  • Draws on historic worship, theological guardrails from the creeds and the Reformation, and personal journey from a charismatic background to Anglican liturgy.
  • Quote: “I am Catholic in the Nicene sense. One holy catholic, apostolic church already. I am like we all are. But I highlight being rooted in the ancient creeds and the Scriptures and the historic worship of the church.” (05:09)
• Good-natured banter follows, with jokes about liturgical dress and denominational stereotypes.

2. Jonathan Edwards: The C-Grade Controversy (08:10–13:51)

• Listener Outcry: Many listeners object to the show's previous ranking of Jonathan Edwards as a "C" in their theologian tier list.
• Mike Horton’s Analysis:
  • Edwards admired for defending Calvinist doctrines but critiqued for philosophical tendencies toward “pantheism/panentheism.”
  • Cites Charles Hodge’s claim that Edwards was a pantheist, clarifies the differences: “A pantheist believes everything is God. A panentheist believes that everything is in God in such a way that God and the world are mutually entwined...” (09:41)
  • Explains Edwards’ view that “everything that happens… is the direct and immediate act of God as a new creation, Continuous creation.” (12:46)
• Justin Holcomb:
  • Notes that Edwards’ views on providence “flatten things out,” verging on making God the author of everything—a problematic consequence for Reformed theology.
  • Adds playfully, “That’s problematic. And if people remember, what did pantheism get you in the ranking? It was a straight F, automatic F.” (10:27)
• Walter Strickland:
  • Appreciated Edwards for bridging “untethered individualism and emotionalism” in spirituality.
• The panel agrees: Edwards’ grade isn’t personal, reflects legitimate theological tensions, and the ranking show was intended to be fun as well as thought-provoking.

3. Dispensationalism: Heresy, Blasphemy, or Cult? (15:05–21:59)

• Question: Is dispensationalism a heresy, blasphemy, or cult?
• Walter Strickland & Panel Responses:
  • None of the above; the panel unanimously agrees that dispensationalism, while containing significant theological errors, does not rise to the level of heresy.
  • Walter: Grew up dispensationalist, sees it as “an earnest attempt to read the Bible but becomes very literal… It just leads us towards some very overly simplified interpretive moves in Scripture.” (16:41)
  • Mike Horton:
    • Dispensationalism’s main error: separates Israel and the Church, doesn’t read OT Christocentrically—“the biggest is you don’t read the Old Testament Christocentrically… you have this disconnect between Israel and the church. Those are… pretty significant errors in biblical theology.” (16:57)
  • Bob Hiller:
    • Introduces language categories: “orthodox” (creedal/faithful), “heterodox” (significant but not damnable error), and “heretical” (outside Christian faith).
    • Dispensationalism falls under “heterodox,” not heretical: “Nonetheless, I know plenty of good dispensationalists whose faith is entirely in Jesus Christ and they love the gospel and they believe salvation is through grace alone…” (18:29)
• General Take:
  • The panel emphasizes the need for nuance and charity in disagreement, reserving “heretic” for teachings attacking the gospel’s foundation.

4. Recommended Resources on 20th Century Theology (22:52–24:24)

• Listener Question: What books summarize modern theological movements?
• Panel’s Recommendations:
  • 20th Century Theology by Grenz and Olson
  • Roger Olson’s larger church history survey
  • James Wilson’s Modern Theology
  • “Know the Theologians” by Jennifer and David McNutt (edited by Justin Holcomb)

5. Charles Finney and Schleiermacher: Historical Connections (24:24–29:47)

• Listener’s Experience: Finney lionized in Pentecostal circles for revivalism, with little awareness of doctrinal issues.
• Did Finney Interact with Schleiermacher?
  • Mike Horton: No direct interaction; Finney didn’t attend seminary, was more influenced by Enlightenment rationalism and Kant, Pelagius.
  • Finney was both anti-supernatural (stressing means rather than miracle in regeneration) and hyper-supernatural (emphasizing immediate experience).
  • Bob Hiller & Justin Holcomb:
    • Connections exist in overemphasis on experience; Horace Bushnell called Finney the “American Schleiermacher.”
    • Helpful insight: Similar outcomes can spring from different philosophical sources.

6. Deliverance Ministries and Demonic Oppression (30:12–39:10)

• Listener Question: Thoughts on “deliverance ministries”?
• Justin Holcomb:
  • Outlines two schools: “power encounter” (confrontation/interrogation of demons) versus “truth encounter” (proclaiming biblical truths over demonic lies).
  • Cautions against demon obsession, citing C.S. Lewis’s warning of two extremes: ignoring them or overemphasizing them.
  • Advocates a scriptural, gospel-centered response: cry out to God, rest in the work of Christ, rely on prayer.
• Mike Horton:
  • Warns, “Don’t play with demons… but don’t be afraid of them, because Christ made a public spectacle of them on the cross. They have lost their power over you.” (33:33)
  • Stresses the importance of baptism: “Tell the devil, ‘I’m baptized!’”
• Walter Strickland:
  • Rejects interviewing demons: “They’re not truthful, so it’s not gonna be helpful anyway.”
  • Endorses a “truth encounter” approach—proclaiming the gospel truth, affirming Christ’s victory, and standing in one’s baptismal identity.
• Memorable Story (Justin): Shares about a woman who believed she was owned by Satan; the baptismal liturgy’s declarations (“You are sealed by the Spirit and marked as Christ’s own forever”) gave her assurance, functioning as the most powerful deliverance ministry. (36:10–36:52)
• Bob Hiller:
  • References the traditional exorcistic elements of baptismal liturgies, noting their theological richness.
  • Points to the hymn:
    “Satan, hear this proclamation: I am baptized into Christ. You can drop your ugly accusation, I am not so soon enticed…” (37:58)

7. Baptism, Children, and Complacency (39:11–44:51)

• Listener Comment: Raises issue of whether paedobaptists (those who baptize infants) become complacent in raising children spiritually, merely trusting the fact they were baptized.
  • Argues both paedobaptists and credobaptists should be active in nurturing faith, not complacent.
• Walter Strickland (resident Baptist):
  • Agrees; neither side should become complacent post-baptism. Affirms “fighting for our children’s hearts.”
• Mike Horton:
  • Stresses that infant baptism involves parental and church promises to raise children in faith.
  • God’s commitment to the child comes first: “God has obligated himself to this child. That is in our liturgy and in the Heidelberg Catechism, we say that is the first thing in baptism. The first thing in baptism is, what is God doing?” (42:50)
• Bob Hiller:
  • Clarifies that, for paedobaptists, assurance is in God’s promise attached to the sacrament—not magic or superstition:
    “It’s not because the kid got wet. It’s because God attached a promise to the water… we think that’s where the promise is attached.” (43:37)
• The conversation ends on the unity of Christian parents, regardless of view: both are called to fierce, loving instruction and dependence on God’s promise.

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Memorable Quotes & Notable Moments

• On Edwards and Providence:
  “Edwards denied the actual existence of anything but God. We are all God’s ideas.”
  — Mike Horton (09:41)
• On Dispensationalism:
  “Heterodox is probably the category we want to think about for dispensationalism… I know plenty of good dispensationalists whose faith is entirely in Jesus Christ… So we’ve got to be a little bit more charitable and cleaner with our language.”
  — Bob Hiller (18:29)
• On Deliverance:
  “He made [demons] a laughingstock. They are nothing. They have lost their power over you. And what a wonderful thing to tell people who their whole life long were in bondage to fear.”
  — Mike Horton (34:29)
• On Baptism’s Comfort:
  “You are marked as Christ’s own forever.”
  — Justin Holcomb (36:52)
• On Baptismal Assurance:
  “It’s not because the kid got wet. It’s because God attached a promise to the water.”
  — Bob Hiller (43:37)

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Timestamps for Major Topics

• Listener poll & denominational jokes: 04:17–06:41
• Jonathan Edwards grade controversy: 08:10–13:51
• Dispensationalism: error or heresy? 15:05–21:59
• Books on modern theology: 22:52–24:24
• Finney, Schleiermacher, and revivalism: 24:24–29:47
• Deliverance ministries: 30:12–39:10
• Baptism and raising covenant children: 39:11–44:51

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The White Horse Inn’s Takeaway

The tone throughout is informed, playful, and charitable—with sharp distinctions drawn but generous space given for Christian humility on “in house” debates. The panel consistently points their listeners back to God’s promises, the clarity of Scripture, and the importance of both intellectual and spiritual engagement in the life of faith.

If you want deep yet accessible theological conversation that doesn’t sacrifice brotherly love for polemics, this episode is an engaging must-listen.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Bob Hiller]

Let's ask it this way. Are you a heretic, blasphemer, or an adult? Which is.

[Walter Strickland]

I mean, I'm. I'm on the show, right? I mean, that. That means I'm not really a part of the crew, so. But I would say that I grew up in a dispensationalist environment. I wouldn't call it heresy or any of the other options that we're given. I would just call it an earnest attempt to read the Bible, but becomes very literal. And the literal move is a move away from, you know, sort of liberalism. And so I respect the desire to read the Bible literally. It just leads us towards some very over overly simplified interpretive moves in Scripture.

[Bob Hiller]

So one of the categories we have in our church, I think you guys probably all have this too, is there's sort of three ways of talking about the teachings in the church. You have the orthodox teaching, which is true, or faithful heterodox, which is people who are not outside of the faith, but they have teachings that are probably not helpful and actually can be dangerous to yourself, not your salvation maybe, but you certainly can be dangerous to your faith and that sort of thing. And then finally is heretic. And that's just a straight up false teacher. That's Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Arianism. These are just false teachings that use Bible verses to portray lies do harm. Heterodox is probably the category we want to think about for dispensationalism. Like, I personally think there's significant problems for the distinctions that they make between the church and Israel and the way they read the Bible. Nonetheless, I know plenty of good dispensationalists whose faith is entirely in Jesus Christ and they love the gospel and they believe salvation is through grace alone and all of these sorts of things. So we've got to be a little bit more charitable and cleaner with our language.

[Mike Horton]

Reserve the H word for.

[Bob Hiller]

Yeah, for actual heretics.

[Narrator]

Applying the riches of the Reformation to the modern church. This is White Horse Inn, a weekly roundtable discussion about theology and Culture.

[Bob Hiller]

Welcome to White Horse Inn. One of the great things about these online platforms we all get to be involved with is something called the comment section. Now, everybody knows comment sections are nothing but salt and light in conversations here on YouTube, on wherever else you're watching on this platform or listening. Obviously I'm being a little tongue in cheek, but actually a lot of the comment sections actually produce some pretty thought provoking and interesting conversations. And so what we want to do today is engage some of these questions and responses we've received from past episodes and see if we can't help further the conversation, clarify some things or just create more comments because that sounds like a lot of fun for us. So we're going to do this today with all the usual cast of characters. I'm Bob Hiller with Justin Hul and Walter Strickland and Mike Horton. Gentlemen, I have questions.

[Justin Holcomb]

I just wanted, I just want to feel safe. Who picked these questions? Are you in charge of this? And, and I think people need to know. We have no idea what we're being asked. Yeah.

[Bob Hiller]

So you guys don't know the questions? I received the questions last night from Caleb. I always forget Caleb's official title. I think it's White Horse Overlord or something like this. Pretty. He, he chose the questions and he picked out the things we should be discussing. So I will pass the blame to him.

[Justin Holcomb]

Okay, so I just want to highlight how much power you keep on being given and all. Oh, this is, this is acknowledging it. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm. I'm genuflecting in your direction of power.

[Bob Hiller]

You're genuflecting in my direction. This is good. This brings us to my very first question that I want to bring up. One of our listeners who's faithful on the, the old YouTube there asks this. Let's take a poll. Which one of these four is going to become Catholic first and post your vote below. I don't have the list of votes, but he responded to himself. And Justin, you were the winner. The genuflecting comment gets you that.

[Justin Holcomb]

So self fulfilling prophecy.

[Bob Hiller]

I am surprised that it's Justin, but then again, I've seen the way he dresses on Sunday.

[Walter Strickland]

So.

[Mike Horton]

Welcome to the Church of England where we call our minister Father, but he dresses like mother.

[Walter Strickland]

Wow, we're stuck in the mud already. But you know what?

[Mike Horton]

No, that's not heard that one before. That's what my evangelical friends in the Church of England used to say.

[Walter Strickland]

Oh, man.

[Justin Holcomb]

No, I am, I am Catholic and we're all Catholic. But I know the question. I'm assuming he's referring or she's referring to Roman Catholic. So I am Catholic in the Nicene sense. One holy catholic, apostolic church already. I am like we all are. But I highlight being rooted in the ancient creeds and the Scriptures and the historic worship of the church. But I am in the Anglican Communion by conviction, not indecision. I was raised in a charismatic Pentecostal setting, and so when I found theological guardrails, I was thrilled. And then when I also was given some worship guardrails, liturgical. What does Scripture teach? What has the church done? I found that really encouraging. And I was one of the people who was kind of just drawn to the intentionality and beauty of the liturgy, like many people are. That's not different. But I think perhaps that listener's picking up on my high view of tradition, which I got from John Calvin. I mean, I'm literally sitting here. On my desk is a book called John Calvin, Student of the Church Fathers, where there's chapters about Calvin and the Greek Fathers, the medievals, Bernard of Clairvaux and some others. And so maybe that's shining through. Maybe it's because of my view of the sacraments, which I also got from Calvin and Peter. Vermele. Vermele. Get the pronunciation in the comment section. Vermele would be helpful.

[Bob Hiller]

That's a comment. We got a lot of.

[Justin Holcomb]

Vermele. And I also love the Soul is an Ethernet article. So I am not shopping for a New Jersey. I'm trying to be a faithful Anglican Christ at the center. The gospel as the promise word and sacrament as the steady, ordinary means and diet, and a church that is rooted and reformed. So if people want to place bets, I'm liking this bet thing. I heard a betting thing happening here. I would love to receive 10% of the winnings for the Mission of Mission and Ministry of the Diocese of Central Florida.

[Bob Hiller]

There you go.

[Justin Holcomb]

But I am wondering what I've said that would make someone think that I'm the first to go because I'm pretty rabidly into the solas.

[Mike Horton]

You sound a little defensive.

[Walter Strickland]

I mean, you do.

[Justin Holcomb]

I'm just. I feel more hurt.

[Walter Strickland]

So I'm actually wondering how many votes I got. I probably got the fewest of the bunch because, you know, you're pretty low down the camera. Yeah, I am. So us Baptists, we don't do history. We don't do tradition. We just do, you know, appreciate the believer.

[Justin Holcomb]

Just do the Bible.

[Walter Strickland]

Just do the Bible.

[Bob Hiller]

My read on this is that the. The gentleman who posted the comment is himself Roman Catholic. So, Justin, I would take it as a compliment.

[Justin Holcomb]

Oh, okay. I thought it was. Well, then, thank you.

[Bob Hiller]

Yeah, that's my. That's my guess.

[Walter Strickland]

I'm the one who should be.

[Justin Holcomb]

I feel. I feel. I feel the solidarity. And I'm sorry for these other three.

[Bob Hiller]

I'll be happy to be left off of that list. Okay, let's move on to our next question. Here we did an episode where we. We ranked theologians, you may recall, and it created quite a. Quite a stir. The one thing that was said that really got under a lot of people's skin was the ranking of Jonathan Edwards as a C. Edwards got a C. And so a number of these comments here. Edwards is a C is a joke. Seriously, guys, how is Edwards not an A, Edward C, and Wesley in B? Can someone explain this? I actually agree with that comment, by the way. I thought Owens was an A instead of an S. Was. That was crazy until you guys put Edwards at a C. But I like this. I need to study a little more to figure out how he was problematic. So at least there's some, you know, humility.

[Walter Strickland]

I appreciate that, but I'm gonna call upon.

[Bob Hiller]

I. I'm happy to put Edwards lower than a C if they all would prefer that. I don't know. But what. What do you guys think?

[Mike Horton]

Oh, you know, what's really hard is if you're a Calvinist, you definitely appreciate Edwards defense of the doctrines of grace and so forth. But what's interesting is he was such a brilliant guy and so original that his philosophy tended toward pantheism, and so his theology was influenced by it. But there's almost a kind of schizophrenia in Edwards on one side, Calvinist, on the other side, a very deep Neoplatonist, Charles Hodge, said that Edwards was a pantheist. I actually think he was a panentheist, which wasn't a term in Charles Hodges day for a category. A pantheist believes everything is God. A panentheist believes that everything is in God in such a way that God and the world are mutually entwined. And so Edwards denied the actual existence of anything but God. We are all God's ideas. I think that that kind of justifies.

[Justin Holcomb]

A C. The way that plays out with Providence is that literally, like there's concurrence is the teaching from Aquinas and other church fathers of how go providence and human responsibility and agency work, that God works through secondary means in his doctrine of Providence. And what Mike's describing basically makes God the author of Everything. And it kind of lowers and flattens things out. That's problematic. And if people will remember, what did pantheism get you in the ranking? It was a straight F, automatic F. Right. So we were like, okay, there's pantheism. And then we found out that Mike wants to put Pelagianism below pantheonism. That was the whole thing. Christian heresy versus a whole nother philosophical structure. And Mike didn't budge. And so the fact that we let Edwards go from an automatic F, which I don't think he deserves an F. Okay. But I'm going back to the pantheism thing to a C, like all the other good stuff, is what launched him from. From the panentheism. And so, again, it's not pantheism. It's panentheism. Ish. And so that. That creeps you up a little bit. But we also were just having fun.

[Bob Hiller]

Yeah.

[Justin Holcomb]

Yeah, that's good, because that was surprising. I remember bumping into that, because all. All a lot of my heroes would be like, they just al Edwards and all this great stuff. And then you bump into a few of these things about Providence and the philosophy that Mike was talking about. You're going, oh, okay. And what Mike said was a gracious read, that he was so creative. Other people have been like, oh, you got to dismiss him now because of these things.

[Walter Strickland]

So, yeah, I wonder if folks were more like me when they encountered Edwards. They were introduced to the doctrines of grace. They were interacting with theologians. They were trying to reconcile their past belief with their current findings. You know, and there's always the joke about the frozen chosen. Then you actually engage with somebody who is talking about the religious affections. And then you say, okay, this is somebody that I can be in conversation with because they're helping me bridge the gap between untethered individualism and emotionalism in the Christian faith. And then also having somebody who is engaging with his affections as someone who's thought very carefully about some things. And so that's the way I encountered him.

[Justin Holcomb]

I want to ask Mike, is what I said about Edwards and Providence accurate? Because I. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Horton]

He got this really, in part from Nicholas Malebranche, Roman Catholic philosopher. It's called occasionalism, where everything is just an occasion of God's activity. So he says very clearly in a number of places that everything that happens in is the direct and immediate act of God as a new creation, Continuous creation.

[Justin Holcomb]

Yeah.

[Mike Horton]

He collapses Providence into creation. Everything that God does, he does apart from means, and he does it directly and immediately in exactly the way he said, let there be light, and there was light.

[Justin Holcomb]

So you could see how, like. And again, I'm going to be playful, but you could see how, like a cage stage Calvinist would love this because, like, they find out God's sovereign. He's like God sovereign over everything. Yes, but not in a flattening out way of occasionalism where there's not secondary means by which God has chosen to do things.

[Mike Horton]

And, you know, he's reacting against deism, which basically says. Denies providence, denies that God is involved. So the world upstaged. God is backstage. And so he overreacts by basically denying the world. Basically, there's only God. Only God really, truly exists.

[Bob Hiller]

I think it's a solid answer.

[Walter Strickland]

I think it's helpful for those who are looking towards a higher view of God, yet understanding some of the pitfalls that come with that overcorrection.

[Bob Hiller]

Yeah, helpful.

[Justin Holcomb]

But we did give Wesley.

[Bob Hiller]

I. I saw that and I was.

[Justin Holcomb]

Like, telling us back what we did. I'm like, oh, we did that.

[Walter Strickland]

For what it's worth, we had no idea coming on that list, everybody.

[Bob Hiller]

We'll put Wesley down to a C. We'll go back and do that some other time. All right, next one. This is interesting because this has become, at least on my social media reels, this is a conversation that seems to be coming up a lot right now. Is dispensationalism a heresy, blasphemy, or a cult? I guess those are your only three options, by the way.

[Mike Horton]

None of the above.

[Justin Holcomb]

Certainly. It kind of goes back to the ranking thing, because I think we got to. Was it Schaeffer Lewis and Mike Schofield? And Mike, I think you may have said heresy in that one because I listened to it recently.

[Mike Horton]

If I did, I missed. Spoke.

[Justin Holcomb]

Well, it was something strong, but I knew you were being playful. But what are the three options? What. What are the three categories?

[Bob Hiller]

Again, they were the heresy, blasphemy, or a cult.

[Walter Strickland]

Wow, that's. That's.

[Justin Holcomb]

That's pretty strong.

[Walter Strickland]

So.

[Justin Holcomb]

So, Walter, you're. You're a dispensationalist, right?

[Walter Strickland]

I'm barely not.

[Bob Hiller]

Let's ask it this way. Are you a heretic, blasphemer, or an adult? Which is.

[Walter Strickland]

I mean, I'm. I'm on the show, right? I mean, that's. That means I'm not really a part of the crew, so. But I would say that I grew up in a dispensationalist environment. And for me, I would call it a system of biblical interpretation that leads us towards dividing the redemptive history into dispensations that are distinct and have a distinctive characteristics in of themselves. So I wouldn't call it heresy or any of the other options that we're given. I would just call it an earnest attempt to read the Bible but becomes very literal. And the literal move is a move away from sort of liberalism that was doing harm to the text. It's an over response to that movement. And so I respect the desire to read the Bible literally. But you can't read apocalyptic literature like an epistle. You can't read the wisdom literature like an epistle either, which is the temptation that dispensationalist hermeneutics sort of leads us towards. And so it just leads us towards some very over overly simplified interpretive moves in Scripture.

[Mike Horton]

So yeah, I think that's, that's a great way of, of describing it. Charitably. I, I mean I do, I do believe dispensationalism is an error. So now I, I'm going to say something different. No, I do think that dispensationalism contains really significant errors in biblical interpretation that do affect theology and the Christian life. I think for one, the biggest is you don't read the Old Testament Christocentrically. You read the Old Testament as if the promises are strictly to Israel. Israel kind of upstages Christ as the fulfillment of prophecy. And then you have this disconnect between Israel and the church. Those are, from my perspective, pretty significant errors in biblical. And it's the whole way of reading the Bible. It's not just, you know, we disagree on this, that or the other thing, but different ways.

[Walter Strickland]

I think you're right to bring that up, Mike. That interpretive practice does impact a lot. And so I wasn't trying to affirm the sort of theological conclusion that dispensationalist hermeneutics brings us to. I just was trying to be charitable and saying they're trying to read the Bible.

[Mike Horton]

Right.

[Walter Strickland]

As authoritative and so forth.

[Bob Hiller]

Yeah, I think.

[Justin Holcomb]

Are they as bad as Pelagians? Mike?

[Mike Horton]

Of course not.

[Justin Holcomb]

I want you to have a moment.

[Mike Horton]

That's the baseline, isn't it, for you think that's my baseline.

[Bob Hiller]

One of the categories we have in our church, I think you guys probably all have this too, is there's sort of three ways of talking about the teachings in the church. You have the orthodox teaching, which is true or faithful. Probably creedal is, might be a way of saying it heterodox, which is people who are not outside of the faith. But they have teachings that are probably not helpful and actually can be dangerous to yourself, not your salvation, maybe, but you certainly can be dangerous to your faith and that sort of thing and followed all the way to the end. They can perhaps be dangerous to your salvation, certainly to your assurance or something like this. And then finally is heretic. And that's just a straight up false teacher. That's Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Aryan. These are false teachings that use Bible verses to portray lies do harm. Heterodox is probably the category we want to think about for dispensationalism. Like, I personally think there's significant problems for the distinctions that they make between the church and Israel and the way they read the Bible. Nonetheless, I know plenty of good dispensationalists whose faith is entirely in Jesus Christ and they love the gospel and they'll pro. And they believe salvation is through grace alone and all of these sorts of things. So we've got to be a little bit more charitable and cleaner with our language.

[Mike Horton]

Reserve the H word for.

[Bob Hiller]

Yeah, for actual heretics, the H bomb.

[Justin Holcomb]

And I grew up in a dispensational setting too, and I think many of us did. I think Mike probably did. And I know Walter said he did. I'm guessing Mike did you, Mike?

[Mike Horton]

Yeah, I did.

[Justin Holcomb]

Okay. Yeah. And so when I found, like, when people start talking about Covenant theology, I mean, the beauty of that was like bringing together the Old and New Testament and seeing how you read Christologically, the Old Testament and it is the hermeneutic, I mean, it has huge implications. I. I'm wondering. I. I read the question first, heard the question first, as playful and made me want to party with this person. I thought I want to hang with this person because it is playful. But I mean, I do think if I think because they were saying occult and blasphemy and heretic, that they were having some fun with it.

[Bob Hiller]

I hope so.

[Justin Holcomb]

I hope so. But, yeah, I do think. I think I'm going back to what you're saying, Bob, is I think giving that gradation of. That's very helpful that. I mean, the Roman Catholic Church has categories. During the Reformation, they also had similar categories. Okay, there's orthodoxy and then there's heresy. And then there's things in between approaching here there's one that's like leaning towards, like it's approaching heresy. And then there's another one that's like, well, it's not the normal teaching, but it's not approaching heresy. It's if Everything's a heresy, then that's problematic. But if nothing's a heresy, then that's problematic. So you have to have what you were, I think what you were saying, Bob, is just very helpful for humility, but also faithfulness to scripture and the tradition.

[Bob Hiller]

And the goal is always orthodoxy. The goal is always trying to get to what is true within Scripture and make sure we're proclaiming that.

[Mike Horton]

Yeah, our old theologians, like Francis Churton said there are errors at the foundation, errors around the foundation and errors that do not affect the foundation. And of course the heresies would be the ones that directly attack the foundation. I think we've got to have that kind of nuance when we, when we're talking about, especially talking about brothers and sisters we think could read the Bible better. We wish that they had a different interpretation. And it is important, but it isn't heretical, right?

[Narrator]

At Sola Media, we're committed to helping Christians deepen their faith through clear, Christ centered teaching rooted in the riches of the Reformation. Every podcast, article and resource we produce is offered free of charge. And it's only possible because of generous monthly supporters. When you become a partner today, you'll receive two remarkable books as our thanks, Rediscovering the Holy Spirit by Dr. Michael Horton and Praying with Jesus by Pastor Adriel Sanchez. We believe these books can guide you into a clearer understanding of the Spirit's work and a richer prayer life. To become a partner and receive these two books, visit solamedia.org partner.

[Bob Hiller]

In our discussion about 20th century modern theology. So we had a show where we talked about Barth and Machen and these guys. The question is, is there a single good book that helps to lay out these movements and theological ideologies that a person could get? So if you're talking about 20th century big hitters in theology, you guys got a book you would recommend for people to pick up.

[Justin Holcomb]

There's a book called 20th Century Theology. I think it was Stanley Grenz and.

[Walter Strickland]

Old school.

[Justin Holcomb]

Just really good overview. I mean there's like every book there's something. But that was a very. So 20th century theology was the very first class I took in seminary with Charles MacKenzie and he assigned that book and I just found it really helpful because it gave a good summary of Barth and Bruner. I mean just all of them, just everything I thought is all right there.

[Walter Strickland]

I was even going to suggest Roger Olson's bigger book, which is not just about 20th century, it's about the whole history of the church. But there's A lot on the 20th century there that he's just very.

[Mike Horton]

Also James Wilson, Modern Theology is a really good introduction, and it's not too long.

[Justin Holcomb]

There's also another really great book called Know the theologians by Jennifer McNutt and David McNutt, and they have a whole series in the no series. Some guy named Justin Holcomb was the editor for the book. Some random. That book that I didn't write won an award. While I'm riding their coattails, she's a. She's a historical field. I mean, they both are great. She teaches at Wheat Wheaton, and he works at, you know, Zondervan as a publisher and author.

[Bob Hiller]

All right, very good. Thank you for that. Next question. This is a statement, and then it's going to lead into another question. KJB616 says this. I have lived in western New York most of my life, and having grown up Pentecostal, I can confirm that Finney is still lionized today. Most folks probably weren't aware of his theology and only knew that he had brought revival to the region. As teens, we were challenged to continue his legacy without any real explanation of what that entailed. Now, as non Pentecostal, it's wild to hear how problematic Finney really was. I'll never thank God enough that he has rescued me and revived me. No anxious bench required. With a little smiley face right there. That's pretty good. Great episode. Thanks for everything. I thought you guys would appreciate that. But then here's the next question. Did Finney interact with Schleiermacher at all? I think they would be on opposite sides of the modernist fundamentalist debate, which I know is a bit of an anachron, even though they both place a high priority on inner experience. Is there any actual interaction between the guys and.

[Mike Horton]

Yeah, not that I know of. First of all, Finney never even went to seminary. He refused to go to seminary. He was going to be sent to Princeton, and he said, no, thank you. And his background as a lawyer. He was trained as a lawyer. Made him a really good companion for the philosopher Immanuel Kant, who was a Pelagian. He invoked Pelagius. Ought implies can. If you ought to do it, then you're able to do it. God could never command you to do something that you were morally incapable of doing. And the way Finney talks about Calvinism as unreasonable. It would be unreasonable for God to substitute one person for another one. It would be unreasonable. It would be illegal, he says, to impute injustice from one person to another person. And righteousness from one person to another person. He just thinks in terms of. He thinks like a pure rationalist of the Enlightenment. And then he puts that together with his. His emotionalism. So on one side, what's really interesting about Finney, on one hand, he is anti supernatural. He says regeneration is not a miracle or dependent on a miracle in any sense. It is simply the philosophical result of the right use of means. So basically that means that his new measures were worked ex opere operato. As B.B. warfield said of Finney, the evangelist has now become the sacrament. That's on one hand. On the other hand, he was an enthusiast and sort of reckless in getting rid of the normal service of preaching and sacrament, catechetical instruction and so forth in favor of an immediate experience, baptism of the Holy Spirit and so forth. So it's a really remarkable confluence of a kind of anti supernatural and hyper supernatural worldview. I don't think he really thought very systematically about his doctrines.

[Justin Holcomb]

I just love the question because teaching seminary class, I regularly get asked questions I just don't know the answer to. I don't know. That's a great question. I need a great paper and I'm going to go home and look up an answer. So I actually have like. Like parts of. Parts of lecture notes because of questions. And as soon as I heard that question, I thought, oh, this is the one. I just don't know. And I need to go back. And I'm glad you have we. Glad we have Mike here as our resident encyclopedic.

[Walter Strickland]

That's what I was gonna say.

[Justin Holcomb]

Knowledge guy, Encyclopedia.

[Bob Hiller]

What's helpful about the question too though, is connections that are being made. Like, so Schleiermacher has these problems, Finney has these problems. They're very clearly not coming from the same philosophical background. And yet look at them kind of ending up with similar ways of thinking or speaking like this. This sort of. And Mike, you do a great job with this. Your quote from Calvin to Sodoletto. We have two sects against us. We've got Rome and we've got the enthusiasts. But at the end of the day, or the Anabaptists, I should say, at the end of the day, they're both enthusiasts. You start to see these connections and there's those who ground themselves in Scripture and the word of God and those who are always looking for something outside of it, apart from it. To see the connection between Finney and Schleiermacher, I think is somewhat insightful. So good question.

[Justin Holcomb]

And Horace Bushnell refers to Finney as American Schleiermacher. So I would have. I would have. Answering that question, because I don't know. I would have said, I don't know. But I think there might be, because he's been called. And I heard that, that he's been called the American Schleiermacher. But it's because of the connections you're making, Bob. It's because of someone else historically well.

[Mike Horton]

And Horace Bushnell did know Schleiermacher. I mean, he was trained in theology, so he knew Schleiermacher quite well himself. He was known himself as someone sympathetic to Schleiermacher.

[Justin Holcomb]

But the question is, was there. And that's where Mike was like, no, no, no, there wasn't. But the fact that the similarity. That someone said, oh, yeah, he's like the American Schleiermacher. That's just a. Whoever asked that question.

[Walter Strickland]

That's a fantastic question. Before we go on, I mean, what.

[Justin Holcomb]

An awesome comment section. First of all, we got some ballers in there.

[Walter Strickland]

I need to read that more. But yeah, just before we go on, I love how he is also disallowing people to oversimplify what's going on in western New York and things like that with the anxious bench, or the lack of the anxious bench and all that kind of thing. So I appreciate that.

[Bob Hiller]

All right, this one from our episode on Satan and demons. Do you have thoughts on, quote unquote, Deliverance Ministries? Looks like not very good.

[Walter Strickland]

Okay.

[Justin Holcomb]

There's. There's different versions.

[Bob Hiller]

What do we mean?

[Justin Holcomb]

There, There's a. And I'm going to be kind of going just from distant memory. There's like a thing called, like, the Power encounter, where you kind of. You interview demons and you kind of find out what was their foothold. And, and you, You. You kind of. So you actually engage with the demonic. And then there's another school of thought that's called the truth encounter, which is just like, yeah, deep. Like, the. More of the approach about, like, demons are real spiritual reality. We don't make everything a demon. But they, they're. They're fallen angels who hate God and hate God's images and God's creation. And it's not so much. You got to figure out the strategy. You know, there was a group of people that I know that, you know, they'll. When, when someone manifests the supposed demonic, they'll start interviewing them. And, you know, you have to tell the truth and all that kind of stuff. And then, and then it's kind of arguing and debating, which is not something that I would encourage. And so I do have a view that I think that there is, again, going kind of to a spectrum. What we don't want to do is kind of what C.S. lewis warned us about, which is act like it's not an issue. I still remember being in a seminary class with R.C. sproul, and I asked him a question about, well, where in our. Where in systematic theology to reform, people talk about the Holy Spirit. And he said, well, most of them will say everywhere, because everything's about the Holy Spirit. But honestly, nowhere, because you don't act. I mean. So he was like, there's not a lot of systematic theologies that have pneumatology in there. So he was just. And he was just funny and I think. But he said. And then he kind of went off and he was like, fun question, Justin. Where do we talk about angels and demons? Like, certain. Like, a lot of people just don't act like angels and demons. That's why that episode that we did was so important, because we had to dive into the Bible and see how much they. Angels and demons are mentioned. And so. But the other extreme is the kind of deliverance ministry piece. And so what I've encouraged people to do is read the scriptures. When someone feels like they're being harassed or demonized or. Well, there's a difference, but they're being harassed by spiritual warfare. Cry out to God. Ask God to. Because of the work of the son applied by the Spirit to protect them as the child of God who's been adopted in. And we're the possession of God and to do his fatherly care for us. So I do think having. And that's why years ago we did the one series on angels, and then Bob, you and I interviewed. It was a book in solo media. Can the Devil Read My Mind? And I forgot the. I forgot the David Cassidy. I think that sounds familiar, right?

[Bob Hiller]

Yeah.

[Justin Holcomb]

And it was great.

[Mike Horton]

He.

[Justin Holcomb]

He was really helpful on some of the practical things. And so if we can hyperlink or link to that. That episode Cassidy was great. That book was great. I don't know if it's still available, so I'll stop there because I'm. I'm still kind of like, remembering certain things. I'll throw it to you guys. Yeah.

[Mike Horton]

I think that, you know, a lot of us would. Would say we tell the devil I'm baptized. I do think. I mean, I've experienced demonic presence, particularly when I'm in an environment where people are Actually calling down demons on that side. Paul says you can't participate in the table of the Lord and the table of demons. Okay, don't play with demons. On the other hand, Paul says, don't be afraid of them because Christ made a public spectacle of them on the cross. He made them a laughingstock. They are nothing. They have lost their power over you. And what a wonderful thing to tell people who their whole life long were in bondage to fear.

[Walter Strickland]

Yeah. And to all of our points, I mean, I think we have Christ's authority as his children, as his co heirs, those who have truth revealed to us. And we just speak those truths to any sort of principality and power. I mean, I don't find, as you said, Justin, interviewing or debating with the demons is helpful. I mean, interviewing them is not. They're not truthful, so it's not gonna be helpful anyway. So why are we gonna look to them to get anything from them? But we ought to tell them the truth that we find in scripture. The truth that they are defeated, the truth that we are his, we are sealed. You know, we are baptized insofar as that could be called a deliverance ministry. I'm for deliverance ministry.

[Justin Holcomb]

And that's the truth encounter approach. And I just want to go back to the thing about baptism. I just remembered that Mike said there was a woman who got baptized in one of the churches in the diocese and was 20s or something like that, and horrible things were. She experienced horrible things and thought that she was by the things that were done and said to her kind of the property of Satan. Like there were like some family did some like witchcraft stuff, and we're like, no, no, no, you're. And so, I mean, we have a story. We have some stories. This year was the year of baptism, so we just have stories. And the woman's story was. I don't know if it was included or not. I think it might have been too personal and kind of intense. But. But I love talking to the minister who baptized her. And he just said, man. He's like, man, that baptismal liturgy rocks. When you have someone who thinks they're owned by Satan, he's like, I got to ask her, do you renounce Satan and all the spiritual forces of wickedness?

[Walter Strickland]

That's awesome.

[Justin Holcomb]

That rebel against God? I renounce them. Do you renounce the evil powers of this world which corrupt and destroy the creatures of God? I renounce them. Do you renounce all sinful desires that draw you from the love of God? I renounce them. Do you turn to Jesus Christ and accept him as your savior? I do. Do you put your whole trust in his grace and love? I do. Do you promise to follow and obey him as your Lord? I do. And then he said, man, I mean, it's always hard, intense, and just an honor. But then, you know, he's like, you are marked as Christ. You were. You were sealed by the Holy Spirit, baptism and marked as Christ's own forever. She. I mean, that's what she hung on to, is like, I'm marked as Christ's own forever.

[Walter Strickland]

Wow.

[Justin Holcomb]

And she made the connection. She knew there was a whole spiritual going on, and she felt like she was somehow owned by darkness. But. And. And when. When he said, you are marked as Christ's own forever, it countered. It was like the undoing great in her soul and her heart. So when Mike said that, I thought, yeah, this really does that. That's some. That's the best deliverance ministry possible. Yeah.

[Walter Strickland]

Amen.

[Mike Horton]

It's hard when you have a baby in a gown that they got from their grandmother, grandfather, or grandmother, and you're going to have a nice brunch afterwards to really think of baptism, whether it's an adult or a child, as stealing what Satan thought was his. You're actually dealing with. We wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with powers and principalities in heavenly places. But here is a concrete, objective place where Satan has to release his prisoners.

[Bob Hiller]

There's this old. The old liturgy in the Lutheran church. I'm assuming it's the same for you guys. Exorcism was part of the service of baptism. So you would. Right. Now we make the sign of the cross on the forehead and on the heart. But it used to be you would breathe on them and you would sort of drive out the devil, so to speak. And there's this marvelous, marvelous hymn, if you guys can find it. God's own child, I gladly say it. And I think it's the. The second or third verse that goes, satan, hear this proclamation. I am baptized into Christ. You can drop your ugly accusation. I am not so soon enticed now that to the font I've traveled all your might has come unraveled. I mean, it's just fantastic. Like, the devil can't. He cannot overcome the promise. And the word of God that has been attached to me in that water. It's just a marvelous thing. And it also reminds me that when we talk about this, the Lord Jesus knows the devil's real, and it's why he gives you a prayer to pray, lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one when we do face these things. And my concern always with the deliverance ministry is that it first and foremost must teach us to pray and not rely on our own resources, but rely on the Lord Jesus Christ because he's the one who is greater. When sometimes we might try and cast.

[Justin Holcomb]

It out on our own.

[Bob Hiller]

And it turns out, and it works so well even for the disciples, like, deal with the devil in Christ because you are in Christ and he is the one who has power over sin, death, and the devil. Related to all of this, then we did get a longer question kind of about baptism, Baptist tradition stuff. So here you go, Walter. The question from our episode on the Most Misunderstood Things about the Baptist Tradition. This gentleman says it's always interesting to hear the question on children put forward on whether or not they are considered unsaved pagan. The main confusion seems to be over the notion of how they are raised as opposed to what their actual spiritual status is. And when we put it that way, should a paedobaptist, someone who baptizes children, really take such solace in the presumption that their child is saved based on the fact that they were dipped in water? Even if they do, should they not raise them so as to confirm their baptism with faith? Should there be no effort in cultivating the field of the child's heart for this? Should one be complacent because, you know, baptism? This line of thinking should point us to the unity we have in treating children of believers as holy, that is set aside for the teaching and communion they are born into because they have a believing parent. As such, complacency cannot be the parent's disposition. Whether baptism comes first as a launching pad or later as a capstone of tested faith. Just a good reminder to all to fight for your children's heart. For the Lord, there is no greater joy or duty. All right, so the trouble with the comments is how much of this is tongue in cheek? How much of this is to be taken seriously? I mean, I don't think any of us would actually fit into these straw man arguments that are set up right there. Like, oh, why don't you baptize a baby? You don't have to teach them anything else.

[Justin Holcomb]

They're fine.

[Bob Hiller]

Just let them go. Like, nobody, Nobody does that. Nonetheless, what do you guys think of this comment? Is there some wisdom here? Is there some stuff here for us to think about a little bit?

[Walter Strickland]

You know, as the lone credo Baptist on the show, I mean, I definitely affirm what he's saying, while knowing the three of you gentlemen, I would also say that you guys wouldn't take the baptism of a child and then say, okay, our job is done. We got them wet, and now we can just raise them. However, while also I wouldn't, as a Baptist, just say, you know what, Baptism comes later. We don't get serious about our faith until after baptism. You know, I don't think any of us are going to do those things. And so it sounds like he might have been a Credo Baptist. However, I would love to hear you guys sort of discuss maybe even historically or theologically, why you guys would resist that sort of a thinking.

[Mike Horton]

Sure. When we have infant baptisms, parents make promises. In fact, the whole church, whole church.

[Bob Hiller]

Does makes a promise.

[Mike Horton]

And they are asked whether they're going to participate in this child's nurture and growth in the grace of the Lord. And they say, we will. God helping us so that that isn't left out of the picture. In fact, it obligates the child to believe and it obligates the parents to raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord and lead them to the Gospel. And that's why we have confirmation or profession of faith. It's not another sacrament. It is the fulfillment of God's promise and baptism. And that's where my last comment here, that's where I think the comment.

[Justin Holcomb]

Kind.

[Mike Horton]

Of emphasizes the obligation of the parents to fight for their child's heart more than God's obligation. God has obligated himself to this child. That is in our liturgy and in the Heidelberg Catechism, we say that is the first thing in baptism. The first thing in baptism is, what is God doing? And that will encourage parents not to fight for their child's heart in a frantic way, but to receive the good news that God has made concrete in word and water.

[Bob Hiller]

You have an obligation to a brother or sister. This child's born into Christ's family. Now you're going to take care of the people in the family. You would never treat anybody in the family so dismissively, as it's kind of suggested here, this question, should a paedo Baptist really take such solace in the presumption, which I just. I'm already happy with that question, that their child is saved based on the fact that they have them dipped in water. Luther got the same accusation. How can a handful of water do such marvelous things? And Luther's response is, it's not because the kid got wet. It's because God attached a promise to the water. So should we take solace in the presumption that the child is saved based on the fact that got wet? Yeah, because God put a promise in that wet getting like he promised that there he was going to give salvation. It's 1st Peter 3. Baptism now saves you. We can discuss that at another time. Looks like we have to wrap up. And I'm getting the last word on baptism, but I do want to say, like, we think that's where the promise is attached. So it's not like we're putting our hope in a ceremony. We believe we're putting our hope in a promise and a commitment that God has made to the child. Just like Mike said, not in. Because we did our duty to get the kid dipped. That's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about here is a promise that God has made.

[Mike Horton]

Amen.

[Bob Hiller]

And on that note, I will take the last word. That is. This is fun. I think we will do this again. We got a lot more questions to get through and a lot of other stuff. But, guys, I just want to say, I think on behalf of all of us, this is great stuff. Very conversations.

[Mike Horton]

This is fantastic.

[Bob Hiller]

Yeah. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being so thoughtful and giving good feedback, good responses to the work we're doing. We hope it blesses you. And these questions really are a blessing to us. So thanks.

[Narrator]

Thanks for listening to this production of Sola Media. If you enjoyed this episode, would you share it with someone you think would benefit from it? Your support helps us spread the riches of the Reformation and apply historic Christian theology to every area of life.