← White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 1, Episode 2: “Best of Both Worlds”
00:36:52
<p>A tipster reveals that Patrik — who talked about derailing trains and setting off explosives — was a member of the Army Reserve. Does the military have a problem with neo-Nazis in its ranks? For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/white-hot-hate-transcripts-listen-1.6226840</p>
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- [00:01]
Kathleen Goldhar
While there are plenty of toxic social media personalities, few are as vicious and influential as Andrew Tate online. He brags about being a misogynist and his videos have been viewed billions of times. Now Tate and his brother are under investigation for human trafficking. I'm Kathleen Goldhar and this week on Crime Story, I speak with two journalists who spent four years inside Andrew Tate's manosphere. Find Crime Story wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. The following episode contains coarse language and descriptions of violence. Please take care when listening. Ryan Thorpe of the Winnipeg Free Press.
- [00:44]
Ryan Thorpe
Is the journalist who exposed the papers here. The Winnipeg Free Press, one of their reporters went undercover to investigate.
- [00:50]
Kathleen Goldhar
Earlier media reports say he was a member of a racist organization called the Base.
- [00:58]
Boris Mihailovic
That weekend was such a whirlwind because the story just kept developing. My hope was, given the amount of kind of breadcrumbs I'd thrown into that article, that someone was going to read it, that they were going to be able to put the pieces together and recognize this individual that I was describing and reach out to me.
- [01:16]
Kathleen Goldhar
The response was immediate. After Ryan Thorpe's investigation, homegrown hate was splashed on the front page of the Winnipeg Free Press. Canadian journalists scrambled to catch up on the story and people took to social media to express their disbelief, fear or skepticism. Some readers were contacting Ryan directly about the man he'd met while undercover. But there was one tip that stood out.
- [01:43]
Boris Mihailovic
I had one individual follow me on Twitter and then send me a direct message immediately. I'm excited because I think that maybe this is kind of the tip I've been waiting for.
- [01:56]
Kathleen Goldhar
The source sent Ryan a photo of someone he knew named Patrick.
- [02:01]
Boris Mihailovic
It looked a lot like the guy, but this photo was of an individual who was clean shaven. And the guy I'd met in the park had this big kind of large beard, So I wasn't 100% sure.
- [02:11]
Kathleen Goldhar
Then Ryan remembered the truck he saw the man climb into at the end of their meeting. So he tried that. Did Patrick drive one? A red truck with a dinged in door on the driver's side?
- [02:22]
Boris Mihailovic
And he said yes.
- [02:27]
Kathleen Goldhar
It was Saturday, August 17, 2019, not even 24 hours since the story was posted online. Ryan gave the man his number and they set up a time to talk later in the day.
- [02:39]
Boris Mihailovic
He was very cagey. Clearly he wanted to speak with a reporter, but struck me as one of those individuals who doesn't have experience dealing with journalists, as in particularly media savvy, was, you know, nervous and apprehensive about the, you know, the process or speaking to me.
- [02:55]
Kathleen Goldhar
That's because the stakes were particularly high for the caller. Patrick, the man who had been talking about derailing trains and setting off explosives, well, it turns out he hadn't been lying about his military experience. And the caller knew this because he was also in the military. They had trained together and were still enlisted in the Army Reserves.
- [03:18]
Boris Mihailovic
The thing that struck me, the thing that I remember most about that conversation, was he said something along the lines of like, look, I don't want you to think that this was an open secret. I don't want you to think that we're all like this. You know, that there are people in the reserves of different races, from different backgrounds, and if called to in a combat situation, I would lay my life on the line for those people, and we'd be all expected to do the same thing. And so if this guy has the views that you say he does, he needs to be drummed out of the military, and that's why I'm reaching out to you.
- [03:52]
Kathleen Goldhar
Ryan promised the tipster anonymity.
- [03:55]
Boris Mihailovic
So after we agreed to kind of ground rules, I start confirming details about Patrick that I had learned in the meeting in the park.
- [04:04]
Kathleen Goldhar
Patrick did grow up in Lendar. The caller told him he had an ex girlfriend who was black. And he also told Ryan Patrick's last name. It was Matthews, Patrick Matthews.
- [04:17]
Boris Mihailovic
And eventually we kind of get into Patrick's experience in the military because this guy served, you know, quite closely with him. And he said that I've participated with explosives trainings with Patrick on countless occasions.
- [04:34]
Kathleen Goldhar
Ryan's next step was to push for a response from the Canadian Armed Forces. There were many calls and emails back and forth, but they wouldn't give him an answer, even without their confirmation, though Ryan and his editor were confident they had done enough to verify the tipster's account.
- [04:52]
Boris Mihailovic
So the follow up was in Monday's edition of the Free Press, identifying Matthews as a member of the Canadian Army Reserves and a master corporal trained as a combat engineer. And then things start moving really quickly.
- [05:07]
Kathleen Goldhar
People wanted to know, how was it possible that this man who spewed such hate was enlisted with the Canadian Armed forces? How many more like him were out there? And did the military have a problem with neo Nazis in its ranks?
- [05:38]
Michelle Shepherd
Foreign.
- [05:42]
Kathleen Goldhar
I'm Michelle shepherd, and this is White hot hate. Episode 2 Best of Both Worlds Experience the honor and spirit of Canadian soldiers as you participate in carrying on the defence of Canada and its global mission. This is a recruiting video for the Canadian Army Reserve. You can choose from many challenging and exciting part time careers. You can serve where you want and as much or as little as you like. Interspersed with personal testimonials and footage of men and women in uniform are the words Strong, Proud, Ready, Part time commitment, Full time adventure. The Canadian Armed Forces Reserve it's the best of both worlds. Reservists are a special branch within the military. You can be part time and most have civilian careers or are students enrolled in college or other post high school education. For all intents and purposes though, you're a trained soldier just like the regular force. If deployed you'd be shoulder to shoulder without distinction I wondered if it was especially significant that Patrick Matthews was in the Reserves. He wasn't the only Canadian in recent years whose connections to dangerous far right ideologies were exposed. There was Brandon Cameron, who vice reported as living a double life in Nova Scotia as a member of both the Canadian Reserves and a neo Nazi accelerationist group in British Columbia. It was revealed that Reservist Eric Miglund was involved with two far right extremist groups. The three presenters and Soldiers of Odin.
- [07:37]
Michelle Shepherd
Believe that former Reservist Eric Miglin was more than an ordinary member of the 3% movement, which has now been declared a terrorist organization by the federal government. Magellan was, according to the documents, the president and commanding officer of the BC UConn 3% chapter.
- [07:57]
Kathleen Goldhar
Then there's Manitoba Reservist Corey Hurrin, who rammed through the gates of the Governor General's residence with his truck and then made his way on foot and heavily armed to confront Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. Hurrin was detained before he could reach him and he later pled guilty to weapons charges and mischief and was sentenced to six years in prison. In researching this podcast, we talked to dozens of current and former reservists. They wanted to emphasize that they were horrified by these cases and the stain it left on their reputation. The reserves for many is a noble, serious full time profession. But they did concede that for some it was more of a testosterone fueled adventure, a chance to get your war on playing real life Call of Duty. But what if that hobby had a sinister edge? Were accelerationists those who wanted to spark a race war using the Reserves to get the training they needed?
- [09:04]
Michelle Shepherd
A CBC Exclusive investigation has revealed that.
- [09:07]
Kathleen Goldhar
A website popular with neo Nazis appears to have had a large number of Canadian participants. In November 2019, antifascist activists leaked a huge data dump from a known white supremacist message board called Ironmarch, hundreds of thousands of posts and private messages. The CBC journalists saw there were a disturbing number of discussions about the military, whether to join up, how easy it was to enlist, and what skills you might learn. One of the most prolific posters went by the name Moonlord. He said he was Canadian and a reservist. He encouraged others on the forum to enlist once writing, the government will pay you to get you ready for the race war. Literally no reason not to do military service. Moonlord was outed almost simultaneously in December 2019 by a US website and the CBC investigation. He was a Calgary based naval reservist named Boris.
- [10:18]
Michelle Shepherd
My name is Boris Mihailovic. I'm probably known for being on a few CBC articles. I was involved with some far right groups in my past and since then I've kind of left that behind.
- [10:32]
Kathleen Goldhar
At the time, Boris had his identity and personal details revealed to the world doxxed as activists and extremists would describe it. He said he'd already left behind the ideology and had been working with a de radicalization support group more than a year on. He agreed to talk to me with certain conditions. He said he worried about his safety. What are you able to say about yourself currently, where you are, location wise, and what do you want to stay away from?
- [11:02]
Michelle Shepherd
Well, I'm in Canada. That's all I'll say about that. I won't answer any questions about specific questions about groups or individuals.
- [11:11]
Kathleen Goldhar
Boris is 26 today. He claims that his ideological leanings have swung dramatically in the last decade.
- [11:18]
Michelle Shepherd
My politics coming out of high school was like radical left wing. I was a member of a group. There was what some would call like an anti fascist group.
- [11:29]
Kathleen Goldhar
So you came out of high school kind of a lefty?
- [11:33]
Michelle Shepherd
Yeah. Very, very far left. Yeah.
- [11:36]
Kathleen Goldhar
But once Boris went to university, he became more isolated and increasingly lived online, pulled in a different direction.
- [11:44]
Michelle Shepherd
I struggled a lot with like with my home life, like with school. I had a. I was living on my own for the first time, which, you know, didn't go well. I had like no friends, like no social support system since they all moved away for university to other provinces. And I just kind of became isolated and kind of drifted into these online spaces that were not great. For example, 4chan. I was on 4chan a lot.
- [12:14]
Kathleen Goldhar
4Chan is an anonymous image board, an infamous hub for Internet subculture.
- [12:19]
Michelle Shepherd
There's a board for different subjects and the one I was on was called Politically Incorrect. And that's where you would find predominantly like far right views. They put out a lot of kind of like, I guess, propaganda maybe you.
- [12:32]
Kathleen Goldhar
Would call it after A crackdown on the forum. Many of its more extreme users migrated to 8chan. You may know 8chan as the home of the QAnon conspiracy theory. It's also where three mass shooters in less than six months posted their white supremacist manifestos before they went out to kill dozens of people. These so called chans were often gateways to other more extreme message boards. And there talk online could lead to in person meetings with other far right racist users.
- [13:09]
Michelle Shepherd
I met one person in the beginning. It was one person. Over time it became quite a number of people.
- [13:15]
Kathleen Goldhar
What was the purpose of these meetings?
- [13:18]
Michelle Shepherd
To kind of keep everyone together, I guess. They were trying to build an organization.
- [13:22]
Kathleen Goldhar
I mean, I'm sure you didn't have an agenda in minutes, but in terms of the organization, were you looking to influence media, any plots that were hatched in any way or.
- [13:32]
Michelle Shepherd
No, nothing like that? No, not at all. Not to my knowledge, no.
- [13:39]
Kathleen Goldhar
In his final years of university, Boris came across ironmarch.
- [13:44]
Michelle Shepherd
Ironmarsh was a forum that was kind of like a social media platform for people that were on the extreme far right.
- [13:52]
Kathleen Goldhar
And what was it about Iron March that drew you to it?
- [13:56]
Michelle Shepherd
That it was extremely radical.
- [13:59]
Kathleen Goldhar
In what sense? Like radical how?
- [14:01]
Michelle Shepherd
Well, in their views about, you know, racial issues and their views about the role of what electoral politics should play.
- [14:09]
Kathleen Goldhar
I'm still struggling with how your ideology shifted so much from what it sounded like it was in high school.
- [14:15]
Michelle Shepherd
There's no one incident that happened. It's like a combination of like struggling in school and struggling at home and perhaps mental illness. And those things coming together kind of made me vulnerable to consume this media that these like far right people were putting out. I consumed like racist propaganda, basically. I like 17 year old, 18 year old. So I think that's like the time in someone's life when they're kind of forming their ideology. And if someone influences that with like convincing material, then it can be good and bad. I guess in this situation it's terrible.
- [14:56]
Kathleen Goldhar
And in terms of you mentioned mental illness, what were you struggling with? Or what do you struggle with?
- [15:03]
Michelle Shepherd
Like anxiety and depression is probably the main ones, especially in that point in time.
- [15:10]
Kathleen Goldhar
But Boris, AKA Moonlord, wasn't just a consumer of propaganda. He posted nearly 2,500 times in two years. And not just to suggest other users join the reserves. Boris's racist rhetoric became increasingly violent and he eventually rose in status to the point he. He was made an ironmarch admin. Would you have considered yourself an accelerationist when you were back posting?
- [15:40]
Michelle Shepherd
Sure. I think that's accurate.
- [15:43]
Kathleen Goldhar
And how would you define that, then?
- [15:45]
Michelle Shepherd
Someone that takes actions to accelerate what they view as a collapse of society.
- [15:52]
Kathleen Goldhar
And why is that a goal, or was that a goal of yours?
- [15:56]
Michelle Shepherd
Well, their goal is a total collapse of. Of our society, so they can kind of establish their own power, I suppose.
- [16:05]
Kathleen Goldhar
And what was it that drew you to the reserves?
- [16:08]
Michelle Shepherd
Well, they offered the tuition money that I was kind of short on. I think it was $8,000 in tuition. It was decent pay for what we were doing and paid better than my minimum wage job in retail. So that was the main factors.
- [16:23]
Kathleen Goldhar
But posting online as Moonlord at the time, this is what he wrote. No one hates Canada and the Canadian military more than me, yet here I am. They are an enemy of fascism. You're still not getting it. They pay you to teach you the methods you need to destroy them. Should no fascists join the military? Should we have a bunch of monkeys who don't know how to use guns attempting violent revolution?
- [16:48]
Michelle Shepherd
I don't recall writing that. I mean, these are. I probably have thousands of posts over number of years, and kind of recalling what my mindset was at that time is pretty difficult. Like, I can't go back in time and think about what I was thinking when I allegedly wrote that. My mindset has changed so much that it's hard to kind of put myself back into where I was like four or five years ago.
- [17:12]
Kathleen Goldhar
Like, you feel like a different person now?
- [17:15]
Michelle Shepherd
Yeah, exactly.
- [17:16]
Kathleen Goldhar
When you say allegedly wrote that, though, do you not admit that those were your posts or.
- [17:23]
Michelle Shepherd
I just don't recall writing that. I'm just saying, like, I understand their records of every post on Iron March. I don't recall writing that. That's all. That's all I'm saying.
- [17:36]
Kathleen Goldhar
In private messages sent as Moonlord, Boris also wrote that he was part of Blood and Honor, a neo Nazi group whose roots go back to the UK skinhead movement. According to the CBC investigation, in 2015, Boris registered a website for the Calgary chapter of Blood and Honor, using his real name and home address. And yet, a year after that, he was able to join the Canadian Forces Naval Reserves. In those private messages, Boris wrote that one of his superiors was made aware of his group affiliation shortly after he enlisted, saying, quote, I was talked to by an officer at the base about not divulging sensitive military information and not being part of any racist groups. I wasn't accused or threatened, but I got the message. They could have just discharged me immediately, but when I asked him about this, Boris told me he had Never been flagged by a supervisor, never confronted by an officer.
- [18:40]
Michelle Shepherd
Yeah, I just lied about it.
- [18:42]
Kathleen Goldhar
Why would you lie about that?
- [18:44]
Michelle Shepherd
I. I have an idea. I have an idea.
- [18:47]
Kathleen Goldhar
And Boris far right activity wasn't limited to just registering websites. In other private messages. On ironmarch, Moonlord appeared to organize international illegal arms deals for weapons such as pistols, AK47s and RPGs or rocket propelled grenades. There were various things. I won't read them all out, but because there's so, so many. But there was someone known as French soldier and there was plans about going to France and I think Croatia. Did you ever leave Canada or meet with others outside of Canada?
- [19:23]
Michelle Shepherd
Yeah, I can't answer that. Like I said in the beginning, like the super sensitive questions that kind of compromise my safety are off limits.
- [19:33]
Kathleen Goldhar
Are you able to say if law enforcement ever.
- [19:37]
Michelle Shepherd
No, I'm not able to say that.
- [19:41]
Kathleen Goldhar
The Navy said it was not aware of any of this activity until Boris was outed in the media. And while his online record as Moonlord suggests he join the military as a strategy, Boris believes for most who end up in violent far right movements, it works the other way around, that these groups look to the reserves to recruit.
- [20:01]
Michelle Shepherd
People who are in the military that get drawn to the far right ideology are already in the military before that kind of presents itself. Most people you'll encounter in the military are like right wing.
- [20:12]
Kathleen Goldhar
Did you find that in your experience when you were there?
- [20:15]
Michelle Shepherd
Oh, certainly. These kind of pseudo alt right misogynist views or. Or just like casual racism. I don't think it's a big step to go from that to like more extreme ideology.
- [20:30]
Kathleen Goldhar
Boris is no longer a sailor first class with the Canadian Naval Reserves. He was suspended after the CBC reports on his Iron March posts, but an administrative review paved the way for him to return to duty. The officer in charge said he believed in rehabilitation over retribution. But there was an outcry from the public and from within the force over his reinstatement, and a second review concluded he could no longer serve. And how do you deal with it now? Do people let you move on or is it still hanging over you?
- [21:05]
Michelle Shepherd
I think it's still kind of hanging over me, but mostly people have kind of let me move on, but like, I'm still being contacted by you guys, so it's not really done as a no.
- [21:19]
Kathleen Goldhar
And I mean, it's. You Google your name and it's the first thing that comes up. I mean, I guess the question is, how do you prove that you've changed your views?
- [21:29]
Michelle Shepherd
Well, people are Free to believe what. What they want, I suppose. I think my actions speak for themselves. I was kind of involved in de radicalization before I ever had any idea I would be having my name published in the news articles. I. I've been like a volunteer at a nonprofit that helps immigrants. If you don't believe that I've changed, that's up to whoever's kind of making that assessment like, there's nothing. There's nothing else to say in that regard.
- [21:56]
Kathleen Goldhar
Boris was never criminally charged for his online activity. And the whole episode raises an ethical question. When do you out someone for expressing hateful views? You could ruin this person's life or roadblock their rehabilitation or potentially radicalize them even further and make them more dangerous. It's something Ryan had to consider when it came to his reporting on Patrick Matthews.
- [22:23]
Boris Mihailovic
Obviously, you know, he had been exposed in the pages of a daily newspaper at that point in time. You know, I thought he was a serious potential threat to the community, but I can't think of any laws he may have even broken that they could have necessarily arrested him on. Perhaps it's naive of me to think that this would have been some sort of warning sign that maybe he needs to take a step back from the ledge and, like, reorient his life in a better direction. I certainly exposed him. If you want to call that doxing, then, you know, I guess you can call it doxing. I consider reporting what I did, but he's responsible for his actions after that point on.
- [23:12]
Kathleen Goldhar
At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather, it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. The day Ryan's story ran, citing sources to confirm Patrick Matthews was in the Canadian armed forces, the newspapers sent a team to Matthew's home in Beausejour, Manitoba.
- [24:00]
Boris Mihailovic
They took some photos of Matthew's home, and he was there, and he had shaved his face, so he was clean shaven now, which I assumed was in response to the article and me describing him physically and him panicking.
- [24:14]
Kathleen Goldhar
And then later that night.
- [24:23]
Boris Mihailovic
All of a sudden, I get a message that's like, oh, Matthew's, home and Beauje Jour is being raided by the rcmp. I just begin working sources that I have in Winnipeg, people who might know and begin digging through stuff on social media to try and find someone who maybe witnessed things. And probably within half an hour I come across an individual who's posted a video of the raid to social media.
- [24:51]
Kathleen Goldhar
Now, I know it's a media cliche, but Matthews really did live on a quiet tree lined street in a small town. And the neighbors, they didn't know what to think.
- [25:01]
Ryan Thorpe
SWAT team was all around our property.
- [25:03]
Boris Mihailovic
They were all busy working, doing their.
- [25:06]
Ryan Thorpe
Had their tactical gear, went in with robot and checked out the house. We like to keep to ourselves kind of thing. And to have that kind of thing that happened in a small town, Bossier, it's quite frightening.
- [25:21]
Boris Mihailovic
There were seven guys all dressed up in garb and guns and. Well, first of all, they had that big armored vehicle, drove right up to the door at the front here and with a loudspeaker and told him to come out, which he did. He came out and he laid on the ground.
- [25:38]
Kathleen Goldhar
Matthews was detained by Canada's federal police, the rcmp.
- [25:43]
Boris Mihailovic
They took him into custody to seize his firearms. They weren't criminally charging him. I'm not sure exactly how long he was in custody for, but my understanding is by the next day he had been released and was back at home.
- [25:54]
Kathleen Goldhar
And none of those firearms were held illegally? He had a permit for all of them?
- [25:59]
Boris Mihailovic
Yes. And that there's some sort of adjudication process that he was then able to go through to get his firearms back.
- [26:08]
Kathleen Goldhar
After the raid and media storm, the Canadian Armed Forces couldn't remain silent anymore. And so the next day I'm going to jump in because we're just taking our viewers to a military update on those allegations against a member of the Canadian forces. Colonel Gwen Bourque is speaking on the phone from Saskatoon. We'll listen in. Colonel Bourke is the commander of the 38th Canadian Brigade Group where Patrick Matthews served as a master corporal.
- [26:38]
Boris Mihailovic
As an organization, we do promote the value in diversity and we do understand.
- [26:43]
Kathleen Goldhar
Colonel Bork told reporters that news of Matthew's involvement in the base came as a great shock and officially confirmed for the first time that he was a member of the Canadian Army Reserve.
- [26:55]
Ryan Thorpe
I wanted to also assure everyone that.
- [26:56]
Boris Mihailovic
Master Corporal Matthews has no ability to obtain explosives through the military and he does not have the authorization and he.
- [27:04]
Kathleen Goldhar
Doesn'T hold any of the requisite qualifications.
- [27:07]
Boris Mihailovic
In order to draw any type of explosives.
- [27:10]
Kathleen Goldhar
While she reassured the public that Matthews didn't possess any military issued weapons. That didn't mean he couldn't acquire guns elsewhere. He had a firearm license. Colonel Bork also told journalists that essentially the army had not been aware of what Matthews had been doing with this neo Nazi accelerationist group.
- [27:31]
Boris Mihailovic
So the investigation is ongoing. We do really appreciate the Winnipeg Free Press for bringing some new information to light because we do understand the importance of the information that was provided.
- [27:46]
Kathleen Goldhar
But Bork had actually been left in the dark because two days later the military did an about face. The defense chief, Gen. Jonathan Vance, told the press that Matthews had been flagged four months before Ryan's story on the.
- [28:04]
Michelle Shepherd
Current situation with regard to massacre Matthews. I want you to know that this was a signal we did not miss. The Canadian Forces National Counterintelligence Unit had already begun to deal with him by the time that story broke. We are not a place for sick hobbyists to practice their vile ideology and we won't stand for it. We will react.
- [28:27]
Kathleen Goldhar
But whether Patrick Matthews and his racist activity were previously known to the military or not, his case did serve as a wake up call and it shouldn't have. It's not the first time there have been incidents and it's certainly an issue looking at militaries abroad. In the US there is now a task force to try to root out violent extremism within the military's ranks. In Germany, an elite special forces unit known as the KSK was partially disbanded after growing criticism over right wing extremism in its ranks. So after the recent high profile incidents involving Matthews and others in the military, the Canadian Armed Forces finally had to take action.
- [29:18]
Ryan Thorpe
The caf as a whole, and then each of the branches now have policies around hateful conduct. Very explicit, very concrete policies in terms of defining what hateful conduct is.
- [29:32]
Kathleen Goldhar
Barbara Perry is the director of the Centre on Hate Bias and Extremism at Ontario Tech University. She helps the Canadian Armed Forces craft these new policies.
- [29:43]
Ryan Thorpe
So it's an act or conduct, including the display or communication of words, symbols or images by a caf member that they knew or reasonably to have known would constitute, encourage, justify or promote violence or hatred against a person or persons of an identifiable group.
- [30:01]
Kathleen Goldhar
There wasn't a policy like that beforehand?
- [30:04]
Ryan Thorpe
Apparently not.
- [30:07]
Kathleen Goldhar
It's pretty shocking that the Canadian military lacked this clear definition, considering what happened three decades ago.
- [30:14]
Michelle Shepherd
The Somali affair is right up there with the world's worst military scandals. Central to the matter, the Canadian Airborne Regiment.
- [30:23]
Boris Mihailovic
Several of the paratroops were charged with a number of offenses relating to the murder of the young Somalian boy. And then to make matters worse, videotapes.
- [30:32]
Michelle Shepherd
From the the troops themselves appeared showing.
- [30:35]
Kathleen Goldhar
The Canadian paratroopers in Somalia before the.
- [30:37]
Boris Mihailovic
Murder with Nazi tattoos, drinking beer and making racial slurs.
- [30:45]
Kathleen Goldhar
In April 2020, the Canadian Armed forces awarded Barbara and her colleagues a research grant worth three quarters of a million dollars. The idea is that the report's recommendations will help the military weed out hateful ideologies and extremism.
- [31:01]
Ryan Thorpe
This is really the first comprehensive study looking at the far right in the context of the Canadian armed services. Those very celebrated cases that have drawn attention and I think that have motivated the funding that we have. No doubt that's the tip of the iceberg, but how big that iceberg is, we really don't know.
- [31:20]
Kathleen Goldhar
What were some of the reasons that this was, you know, flying under the radar?
- [31:24]
Ryan Thorpe
Well, I think it was a combination of factors. I mean, we were not that far on the heels or long after the 911 attacks in New. And because they were associated with Muslims, that remained the concern, this preoccupation with only Islamist inspired extremism. But I think it was also to do with, because this is one of the things we heard from law enforcement was sort of a denial or minimization of the presence as well as the risks associated with the far right. They just weren't watching, they weren't looking for them.
- [31:58]
Kathleen Goldhar
Barbara believes the military was among the institutions underplaying this risk. When she first started working with them, she was surprised by how little attention the higher ups paid to the online activity of its members. I mean, aside from obvious privacy concerns, what do you think the reluctance is to look into that.
- [32:19]
Ryan Thorpe
It'D be fair of what they'll find. We actually asked that question at one point, what kinds of mechanisms can you use at screening to get at these folks? And we said, how deep a dive do you take in social media? Oh, well, we don't look at it at all. And we were just stunned.
- [32:37]
Kathleen Goldhar
I asked Barbara if she felt it was significant that the spate of recent high profile Canadian cases had all been reservists.
- [32:45]
Ryan Thorpe
Yeah, such good questions. And again, part of what we really want to unpack. They're not that committed that they want to serve active duty. They don't want to devote their whole life to the military. It's a very strategic and pragmatic reason for enlisting. So they're still embedded in their own communities. So I think it's in some respects easier for them to fly under the radar. And I think what's happening is people are already radicalized and they enlist, especially in the reservists, to get what they think is the training, the appropriate training. But then you also get the impact of the likes of Patrick Matthews, for example, who was a recruiter and trying to bring others into the movement as well.
- [33:33]
Kathleen Goldhar
From his perspective, Boris Mihalovic says increased security may have stopped him from joining the Naval Reserves or flagged him earlier.
- [33:43]
Michelle Shepherd
The culture in the caf is like, changing, I guess, quite a bit, but it's still like, I don't know if it's been like, as successful as they maybe want to portray it as.
- [33:56]
Kathleen Goldhar
Why do you think that is?
- [33:57]
Michelle Shepherd
Well, like, when did they begin trying to kind of root out racism like it was in the 90s. I was enrolled in 2016. And like I said, you know, casual racism isn't like, uncommon. Like, misogyny is not uncommon. I've only been out for a few years. It's not like gonna happen overnight, I suppose.
- [34:21]
Kathleen Goldhar
When Boris read about Patrick Matthews, he says he could identify with him.
- [34:26]
Michelle Shepherd
I don't want to say I empathize with him because I don't like our situation was similar. And I kind of feel like, you know, I could have been in that situation myself if I had stayed involved. From what I read about him, he kind of moved pretty fast in the direction of becoming a, like, being involved in this, like, you know, terrorist group just like I did. It's like, kind of crazy.
- [34:51]
Kathleen Goldhar
On August 28, 2019, about a week after Patrick Matthews had been exposed and the RCMP had raided his home, Ryan was in the newsroom.
- [35:00]
Boris Mihailovic
I'm just working on this story, you know, working the phones, and I think an editor comes down to my desk and says, CBC is reporting that he's missing.
- [35:10]
Kathleen Goldhar
New details to bring you now on a story we told you about last week. The army reservists alleged to have links to a neo Nazi group is now missing.
- [35:18]
Boris Mihailovic
I can remember feeling kind of sick to my stomach, actually. I was worried that he was going to harm himself. And I just. That would have been a terrible end to the whole situation. And I know I would have felt terrible. But I can also remember folks in the newsroom coming up to me being like, are you okay? Are you worried? Like, they're mind seemed to go, oh, he's missing. Maybe he's going to come after you. Whereas my first thought was, he's missing. Is he going to, you know, disappear somewhere and do something dumb?
- [36:14]
Kathleen Goldhar
Coming up on White Hot Hate.
- [36:18]
Boris Mihailovic
One of the reasons why I think.
- [36:20]
Kathleen Goldhar
This area was the spot where people.
- [36:22]
Boris Mihailovic
Came to train was just because you would be isolated, there'd be a large.
- [36:26]
Kathleen Goldhar
Enough area where you could shoot and.
- [36:28]
Boris Mihailovic
Camp out and discuss your plans.
- [36:30]
Michelle Shepherd
It's a jihadist or it's an anti government militia. It's all really the exact same thing.
- [36:36]
Kathleen Goldhar
It's ideology and grievances.
- [36:38]
Michelle Shepherd
Right. Needs narratives and networks. I think it was a Nazi flag. I think it was a swastika, I think.
- [36:48]
Kathleen Goldhar
So when you saw it, you just. You didn't recognize it as that necessarily, or you thought, okay, he's going through a Nazi phase.
- [36:56]
Michelle Shepherd
Well, yeah, Yeah, I just figured he was going through a little phase.
- [37:02]
Kathleen Goldhar
White Hot Hate was written and produced by Ashley Mack and me, Michelle Shepherd. Our associate producer is Kim Kasher with production support from Sarah Melton. Additional reporting by Ryan Thorpe. Mixing and sound design by Danelle Cloutier and Julia Whitman with technical assistance from Laura Intinelli. Emily Cannell is our digital producer. Fact checking by Emily Mattu and Lee. Legal advice from Sean Moorman. Original music by Quiet type. Special thanks to the Winnipeg Free Press, David Hoffman, Murray Brewster, Roberto Rashaw and Caroline Barghout for CBC Podcasts. Our senior producer is Chris Oak and our executive producer is Arif Narrani. For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.