Season 1, Episode 3: Hate Camps

Summary

White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse – Episode Summary: Season 1, Episode 3: Hate Camps

Introduction

In Season 1, Episode 3 of CBC's White Hot Hate, titled "Hate Camps," host Michelle Shephard delves deep into the clandestine world of neo-Nazi networks and the undercover operations aimed at dismantling them. The episode focuses on the unsettling disappearance of Patrick Matthews, a former neo-Nazi recruiter, and the subsequent investigations that reveal the complexities of infiltrating hate groups. Drawing parallels with past terrorism cases, the episode sheds light on the strategies employed by law enforcement to counter domestic extremism.

Discovery of Patrick Matthews' Truck

The story begins with Wallace, a long-time resident of Sprague, Manitoba, recounting the day he stumbled upon an abandoned red pickup truck on his property in September 2019.

Wallace [01:34]: "The town was a bustling community at that time. Now it's just a small, small community, but it has a school and bank and a store...".

While bringing soil to his property, Wallace noticed the unfamiliar truck and its open doors, indicating someone had been sleeping inside.

Wallace [02:05]: "I better check who that license plate is... It wasn't one of the local boys that I knew."

Upon researching the license plate, Wallace connected the truck to Patrick Matthews, an army reservist recently outed as a member of a militant neo-Nazi organization. Matthews had been released without charge after a police raid and had since gone missing, raising fears of potential retaliation against those who exposed him.

Context of Patrick Matthews and Fear of Retaliation

Ryan Thorpe, a key figure in the investigation, expressed concerns about Matthews' disappearance:

Ryan Thorpe [04:21]: "Most people seem to think like, oh, he's disappeared and he's going to retaliate. And my concern was he's disappeared and he's going to do something to himself."

Wallace and his son took it upon themselves to trace Matthews' possible movements, identifying routes that could lead Matthews into the United States.

Background on Hate Camps

The episode draws a stark comparison between neo-Nazi "hate camps" and jihadist training camps that emerged post-9/11. Reporter Chris Joiner provides insights into the prevalence of such camps in Georgia, highlighting their role in recruitment and paramilitary training.

Chris Joiner [10:22]: "Georgia is a key part of the deep south of the United States... politically progressive, it is ethnically diverse and a lot of the far right is reactive."

Joiner describes the training camps as highly stylized, with members donning camouflage and tactical gear, engaging in drills meant to foster camaraderie and recruit new members.

Toronto 18 Case and Undercover Operations

Moobin Shaikh, an undercover officer, shares his experiences infiltrating the Toronto 18, a group of individuals plotting terrorist attacks in Canada. His account underscores the similarities between jihadist and neo-Nazi extremist groups.

Moobin Shaikh [19:39]: "It's like a carbon copy. You can just flip around an image and it could be a brown guy and the next day it's a white guy and it's a jihadist or it's an anti-government militia."

Shaikh emphasizes the importance of narratives and networks in fostering violent extremism, drawing attention to the methods these groups use to solidify their bonds and operational capabilities.

Tom Lane and the Georgia Cell

Tom Lane, a handyman from Floyd County, Georgia, provides a personal perspective on his son Luke's involvement with the neo-Nazi group known as the Base. Initially dismissive of Luke's online interactions and the group's presence on his property, Tom later becomes aware of the sinister activities unfolding.

Tom Lane [27:08]: "I think it was a Nazi flag... there's nothing wrong with shooting guns."

Tom recounts how his son, Luke Austin Lane (also known as TMB Online – The Militant Buddhist), became a central figure in the Base's Georgia cell, which was instrumental in recruitment and organizing real-world meetups.

Undercover Agent "Scott" and Camp Activities

Unbeknownst to the group, an undercover FBI agent, referred to as "Scott," had infiltrated their ranks. His presence was pivotal in monitoring the group's activities, including their disturbing rituals and plans for violence.

Chris Joiner [31:28]: "As part of their camping weekend where they decided to kidnap a goat... they ended up shooting it... part of some sort of pagan ceremony."

The camp's activities included animal sacrifices and detailed plans for assassinations, such as targeting a married couple involved in leftist and anti-fascist organizing. These actions highlighted the group's escalating commitment to violent extremism.

Conclusion and Implications

The episode concludes by highlighting the precarious position of Patrick Matthews, who, unaware of the FBI's infiltration, finds himself at the crossroads of a sophisticated investigation. The efforts of undercover agents like Scott Payne and Ryan Thorpe illustrate the intricate balance law enforcement must maintain to dismantle hate groups from within without tipping off members.

Ryan Thorpe [35:17]: "They have to murder Matthews and then they'll come back to Georgia... they'll shoot both of them dead, and then they'll burn the place to the ground."

The episode emphasizes the real and present dangers posed by domestic extremist groups and the critical role of undercover operations in preventing potential acts of terror.

Key Takeaways

• Infiltration Efforts: Undercover agents are essential in penetrating and dismantling extremist groups, albeit with inherent risks.

• Similarities Across Extremist Ideologies: Both neo-Nazi and jihadist groups employ similar methods of recruitment, training, and operation, underscoring common patterns in violent extremism.

• Community Impact: The presence of hate camps disrupts local communities, fostering fear and instability.

• Importance of Vigilance: Communities and law enforcement must remain vigilant against the resurgence of extremist ideologies to safeguard public safety.

Notable Quotes

• Ryan Thorpe [35:17]: "They have to murder Matthews and then they'll come back to Georgia. They'll burst into the house of this married couple, they'll shoot both of them dead, and then they'll burn the place to the ground."

• Moobin Shaikh [19:39]: "It's like a carbon copy... it's all really the exact same thing. It's ideology and grievances, right?"

• Tom Lane [30:45]: "Why did I think there would be FBI guy hanging around? Well, anytime there's anything to do with race... they're gonna get in on it."

Conclusion

Season 1, Episode 3 of White Hot Hate provides a chilling exploration of the underground networks of neo-Nazi hate camps and the intricate efforts by law enforcement to infiltrate and neutralize these threats. Through personal testimonies and expert insights, the episode underscores the persistent challenges in combating domestic extremism and the vital role of undercover operations in maintaining societal safety.

Transcript

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[Narrator]

This is a CBC podcast. The following episode contains coarse language and descriptions of violence. Please take care when listening.

[Wallace]

So just slow down here across the bridge here and just make a. We'll make a right turn onto that approach there. You can barely see it, but there's grass in there. Okay, you can just turn right here.

[Narrator]

This is. Well, let's just call him Wallace because he asked that we not use his real name out of concerns for his safety. He's been living here in the community of Sprague, Manitoba, since 1966.

[Wallace]

The town was a bustling community at that time. Now it's just a small, small community, but it has a school and bank and a store. Can you imagine that? Still a store. You know how many communities have lost their. I guess this is part of the times, isn't it?

[Narrator]

Wallace was working here one September day in 2019 when he saw something out of place.

[Wallace]

The reason I discovered the problem is this is my property here. And I was bringing dirt and soil from the other side of the road into here just to dump it, to get it out of the way. So I just came around the corner here, right about where the V is there.

[Narrator]

He stumbled across an abandoned red pickup truck, one he didn't recognize.

[Wallace]

I said, I better check who that license plate is. Checked the door. The door was open on the pickup and it looked like someone had been sleeping. Maybe in the front, you know, in the back was a whole pile of tools. Eh, it wasn't one of the local boys that I knew. So I went back. I stopped at my granddaughter's place and she didn't know, but I gave her the license number.

[Narrator]

Wallace's family had been following the news. There'd been reports that police were on the lookout for a red truck. It had been driven by an army reservist who'd recently been outed as a member of a militant neo Nazi organization. Police had raided his home, took him into custody, but he was released without charge. Then abruptly, he went Missing. And the alert went out. Walsh's family, they checked the plate number. Sure enough, that was it. The truck the cops were looking for. It belonged to Patrick Matthews.

[Wallace]

You know, by parking there, who's going to, you know, look for you? It could have been here for a month if I hadn't come up here.

[Narrator]

Once the police came and took away the truck, Wallace and his son did their own sleuthing to try to figure out where Matthews could have gone by foot.

[Wallace]

Right down there, there's another creek that comes in right behind here. He found the tracks where he crossed the river. There's a gas pipeline going through here. You could actually follow it right into the United States.

[Narrator]

I'm Michelle shepherd, and this is White hot hate. Episode 3 Hate Camps When Patrick Matthews disappeared, Ryan Thorpe's friends and colleagues were worried about him. He had just outed Matthews as a neo Nazi recruiter in the pages of the Winnipeg Free Press. What if Matthews wanted revenge?

[Ryan Thorpe]

Most people seem to think like, oh, he's disappeared and he's going to retaliate. And my concern was he's disappeared and he's going to do something to himself.

[Narrator]

Then, almost two weeks later, Wallace found Matthew's abandoned truck near the US border. While police got the call yesterday afternoon, the abandoned truck was found on a rural property in the RM of Piney off Highway 12. Now, that's right near the American border. RCMP say that truck belongs to Patrick Matthews. He's the former master.

[Ryan Thorpe]

I remember contacting people locally around there. I learned that if you were going to try to cross over on foot into the United States, this would be a place to do it. So my thought at that time was like, okay, he's driven there, you know, he's crossed over on foot, likely to meet up with members of the base, but admittedly, that was speculative.

[Narrator]

There's a good chance the cops were thinking the same thing, though, because there was a file on Matthews. In June 2019, nearly three months before Ryan's first article, Matthews had been stopped by the cbsa, that's the Canadian Border Services Agency. He was crossing the border, driving back to Canada from the us. They searched him and found posters in his backpack about joining the fight against a white genocide. He also had a journal listing all the mass shootings in the US for the last three decades. It wasn't clear exactly where. He had just been in the us and according to the cbsa, his story seemed to change the more he talked to the officers. But after questioning him, they let him through. We know all this because we Fought in court to unseal an RCMP document. It's known as an ito, an Information to Obtain. And it's what the police needed to get a search warrant for Matthew's home. I gotta say, when I later read these details about his stop at the border and being allowed through, my first thought was that I couldn't imagine a person of color or someone who was Muslim with a backpack full of ISIS propaganda getting the same treatment. We don't know how many times Matthews had been south over the years or exactly what he was doing. But while Ryan had been undercover, Matthews had bragged to him about those trips.

[Ryan Thorpe]

Yeah, because when I met him in the park, he told me he'd been going to the US to participate in hate camps.

[Narrator]

And when he was in the meeting in the park, did he actually say hate camp?

[Ryan Thorpe]

No, he didn't use that term. He said he had probably just said training or something like that or a meetup or whatever.

[Narrator]

Hate camp is the brazen nickname organizations like the base use for their paramilitary training camps.

[Ryan Thorpe]

I tried to advance the story as much as I could, but right around that time is when the trail goes cold a little bit and I don't really know where he is or what he's up to.

[Narrator]

What Ryan didn't know then, and Patrick Matthews certainly didn't know, was that Matthews wasn't really escaping scrutiny by running away, as the saying goes, out of the frying pan and right into the fire.

[Ryan Thorpe]

Yeah. So little does he know he's walking into this, like, very sophisticated investigation that's underway into other members of the base in the United States that's being carried out by some of the highest levels of US Federal law enforcement.

[Narrator]

So he's basically trying to flee an investigation there and then walking right into a massive one already underway.

[Ryan Thorpe]

Exactly, yeah.

[Narrator]

So after Matthews dumped his truck in Sprague, Manitoba, he made his way across a few miles of forest and farmland to the Minnesota border. Eventually he got to Michigan, where two base members were waiting for him. They were Brian Lemley Jr. A 30 something US army veteran, and William Bilbrough IV, a 19 year old who still lived with his grandma.

[Ryan Thorpe]

They pick him up and they ferry him deeper into the US Crossing over multiple states. They stop at various places. You know, at one point they're holed up at a hotel, at another point they're in an apartment in Delaware. They're kind of moving around, trying to keep Matthew safe, keep him off the trail of law enforcement agencies that might be looking into him.

[Narrator]

And at some point the three of them would find their way to Floyd County, Georgia.

[Chris Joiner]

I would think it was probably in the summer of 2019. It was the first time that I had heard of a possible base element in Georgia.

[Narrator]

This is Chris Joiner. He's a veteran reporter at the Atlanta Journal Constitution, the city's major newspaper.

[Chris Joiner]

I was born in Atlanta, grew up in Atlanta, but I've reported in Tennessee and Mississippi. But one of the things I've always really liked is uncovering hidden communities. And for a while I was doing, you know, inside prisons and street gangs. But starting with the massacre at Mother Emanuel in Charleston. When was that? That was 2015.

[Narrator]

2015, when white supremacist Dylann Roof shot and killed nine people during Bible study at one of the oldest black churches.

[Chris Joiner]

In the US I became really interested in sort of this moment that we're having of resurgence of far right politics.

[Narrator]

In the years since, Chris has been watching the growth of this activity closely with a special focus on his home state where white supremacist groups were particularly active. Why do you think that it's so well represented in Georgia? I mean, that's certainly the perception that this seems to be quite popular there.

[Chris Joiner]

Well, I mean, Georgia is a key part of the deep south of the United States, but it also has a very diverse city right in the middle of it. Atlanta, Georgia. You know, politically progressive, it is ethnically diverse and a lot of the far right is reactive. They're activated by things that pop up in the culture that upset them and they mobilize and they recruit around those ideas. You see the same thing in Virginia as well, and in some ways you see it in Michigan.

[Narrator]

Chris knew from local anti fascist activists that the base had a pretty big cell in Georgia. He also suspected that some sort of meetup was imminent. The kind of gathering where members from across the states come together to train and churn out recruiting material for social media. Grace floor now.

[Chris Joiner]

So these were sort of hype videos, you know, very stylized look looking guys in camouflage and tactical gear and hoods on their faces so you couldn't see their identities and their firing weapons. And it's got a lot of like filter effects on the photos and the videos to sort of juice it up with, you know, really hardcore music in the background. But you couldn't tell how, how organized they were, how well resourced or anything like that.

[Narrator]

Chris was right. The base did put on a so called training camp in Georgia near a city called Rome.

[Chris Joiner]

It's an extremely conservative area. It is very white, you know, demographically.

[Narrator]

In A remote rural community called Silver Creek.

[Chris Joiner]

I mean, one of the reasons why I think this area was the spot where people came to train was just because one of the alleged members of that cell just happened to have access to an isolated piece of land that was fairly large.

[Narrator]

It's where Patrick Matthews turned up, ready to share his military skills with others.

[Chris Joiner]

You would be isolated. There'd be a large enough area where you could shoot and train and camp out and discuss your plans foreign.

[Narrator]

Okay, anytime someone says training camps, I can't help but think of that grainy video that played endlessly after 9 11. It was of Al Qaeda guys doing somersaults and swinging across monkey bars. Remember that one? It was meant to be propaganda showing off their training, but later it became a bit of a punchline. More fodder for comedy than a warning to the West. We can't seem to find the terrorists.

[Advertiser]

And yet we have a tremendous amount.

[Tom Lane]

Of film of the terrorists training in their little camps, don't we?

[Narrator]

Seinfeld went for it. So did Family Guy.

[Moobin Shaikh]

Alright, I got the monkey bars all put together.

[Chris Joiner]

Oh God, look at that. They already got Al Qaedas all over them. Get out of here, man. They're gonna be so good at swinging.

[Tom Lane]

Bar to bar when they invade.

[Narrator]

Terror training camps was a news catchphrase for so many years. Whether it was just guys running around doing paintball or building bombs, Hamid organized a series of training camps throughout the uk, including one here at Bays Brown Farm in Cumbria. Unbeknownst to the farmer, however, a chilling video of terror training camps in South Kashmir's Purvamar.

[Chris Joiner]

It's a frightening thought. Islamic terrorist training camps right here in America, in our backyards.

[Narrator]

And when you were reporting on these so called training camps, it was hard to know how to describe them. Were they terrifying or farcical or maybe a bit of both.

[Moobin Shaikh]

It's, you know what it's like going camping with your buddies pretty much, right? It's a very relaxed atmosphere, cracking some jokes. You, you know, these are young guys, very, you know, uplifting mood.

[Narrator]

This is Moobin Shaikh. I've known him for about 15 years, ever since I covered one of the biggest homegrown terrorism busts in Canada. It was known as the case of the Toronto 18.

[Moobin Shaikh]

And they have no idea. But of course I'm laughing along, but at the same time I know that this is no joke.

[Narrator]

Now I don't know anyone who's attended one of these neo Nazi hate camps, but reading about them, they remind me so much of the post nine, 11 jihadi camps, the paramilitary training, the propaganda making, the bonding over who they hate, like very angry boy scouts. And Mubin, he knows a lot about them. Did they call it a camp? Like, what was the motivation for them doing it? I can't remember.

[Moobin Shaikh]

Well, it was they wanted to bring a group of guys up to a level of capabilities that they could conduct some kind of attacks.

[Narrator]

Mubin was at the Toronto 18s training camp working undercover.

[Moobin Shaikh]

They initially had very, you know, aspirational targets, we'll say. And at this stage it was just that they were still at a very low level of capability. Their reach did exceed their grasp, but what they intended to do was, you know, catastrophic.

[Narrator]

The case was huge News back in 2006. Fourteen men and four youths were eventually charged with terrorism offenses. They had plotted to blow up the CN Tower, the Toronto Stock Exchange and other landmarks with truck bombs. They said it was to protest Canada's role in the war in Afghanistan. And they were stopped in no small part due to the information Mubin could give law enforcement. He would become a key witness at the trial.

[Moobin Shaikh]

We will come up on a part of it which is, let's see, at that time it was a dirt road and it will be on our left.

[Narrator]

Okay.

[Moobin Shaikh]

The route that we're taking right now.

[Narrator]

To refresh his memory of what took place all those years ago, we drove back to the training campsite in Washego. That's a rural community about a two hour drive north of Toronto.

[Moobin Shaikh]

You can imagine December 2005, winter, cold, dark, and we're just driving along.

[Narrator]

Mubin had once been on a very different path. In 1995, he met the Taliban in Pakistan and he embraced the jihadi mindset. Then came 9, 11 and the arrest of someone he knew. And suddenly he was questioning his beliefs. By 2004, he was recruited to Canada's spy service, CSIS. So when members of the group, later dubbed the Toronto 18, were plotting C, CSIS sent him in. By the time they set up the training camp, the investigation was in full swing. CSIS, RCMP, CSC, JTF2, the whole Alphabet soup of security agencies were all over the case.

[Moobin Shaikh]

You had surveillance involved. You got special Forces literally buried in the snow watching this all go down in case the threat escalates. They don't know who the undercover is. I'm sure I found myself in the crosshairs of one of those snipers. So fun fact, this little mound here, there was a video taken on Zachariah's cell phone of them shooting a TV that was here. Oh, Here we go.

[Narrator]

Zachariah Amara, the ringleader of the group tv. Like abandoned tv.

[Moobin Shaikh]

Yeah, an abandoned tv. Now if you. Now I think it's gonna drop down a bit. Now, we made the tent area okay nearby, so. Because you'll see it dips down. Because in the training video, the so called training video, there's an excerpt where Sa'ad Khalid is sliding down, holding Fahim's sword. So let's see. Look at all the growth here.

[Narrator]

Of course, we drive as far into the brush as we can park and then go in by foot. How many days were you up here for?

[Moobin Shaikh]

It was like 12 days. I spent my wedding anniversary up here camping with these guys. December 25th, Christmas Day. While everyone was, you know, tucked away in their beds waiting for Santa Claus. We were waiting for Jihadi Claus.

[Narrator]

Mubin says he sees clear parallels between the neo Nazi training camps we're talking about now and the ones after 9 11, those run by Al Qaeda and later Al Shabaab and ISIS.

[Moobin Shaikh]

It's like a carbon copy. You can just flip around an image and it could be a brown guy and the next day it's a white guy and it's a jihadist or it's an anti government militia. It's all really the exact same thing. It's ideology and grievances, right? Needs narratives and networks. These are the ways in which violent extremism comes to be. So coming out and training is very important to solidify that camaraderie that you need in a group. Small unit tactics, people realize. Keep the group small, keep them trusted, and you will get your job done.

[Narrator]

Needs narratives and networks, small unit tactics. Mubin does a lot of presentations these these days for law enforcement. He can talk the talk. But still, the Toronto 18 case remains controversial. In the end, four of the accused went to trial and were given guilty verdicts. Seven other defendants pleaded guilty and the other seven had their charges stayed, which means they weren't prosecuted. Only Zakaria Amara remains behind bars today. There were some who believed the case was overblown, the arrests too sweeping. Just the latest in a line of law enforcement unfairly targeting Muslim communities. They point to that training video, the one Mubin mentioned of the guys shooting up a tv. You can see them jumping over a fire or sliding down that snowy hill or doing donuts in a van. I mean, it's not quite monkey bars, but how seriously can you take them? It goes back to that question of where do you draw the line between fanciful and fanatical? It was a debate. We had so often after 9 11. And now it's being asked once again when it comes to these neo Nazi hate camps, sometimes by those closest to.

[Tom Lane]

The action, they were, you know, shooting their guns. I mean, God, when I was young, we shot our guns. We got a second amendment here. There's nothing wrong with shooting guns.

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[Tom Lane]

The headlines they always read something about white supremacist murder conspiracy. It's always got to do with race.

[Narrator]

This is Tom Lane. He works as a contractor providing handyman services for the people of Floyd County, Georgia. He also lives on a sprawling country property.

[Tom Lane]

Well, it's about 100 acres. My residence is pretty much in the.

[Narrator]

Middle of it in Silver Creek.

[Tom Lane]

I got fields kind of around the house, probably 20, 30 acres of field, and then the rest of it's wooded. Got a creek on one border.

[Narrator]

It's the kind of area where the sound of gunshots isn't a big deal.

[Tom Lane]

You know, they were shooting their ARS and aks or whatever else they had. Luke had never really had a whole lot of friends. I was kind of just glad to see him get out and, you know, interact with other people.

[Narrator]

Tom's son Luke is 23 year old Luke Austin Lane, otherwise known as TMB Online, which stands for the militant Buddhist. Luke was the leader of the base's Georgia cell, considered one of the group's most successful in terms of recruitment and real world meetups. And this is why members converged on Tomp's Property for paramilitary training. Luke still lived at home. Luke grew up there with you. What was he like as a kid growing up?

[Tom Lane]

He was always doing funny little things that we thought were funny. I don't know. He did this kind of a. It was kind of a strut where he would sling his hands back and forth and take big, long steps. Look like a leprechaun or something, I don't know.

[Narrator]

As Tom talks about Luke, his little grandson, his daughter's boy, is running in and out of the kitchen chatting, laughing, squealing.

[Tom Lane]

And he, you know, he was. He was a good kid. And he was homeschooled most of the time, I think. I think he went maybe seventh and eighth grade to a local school here, and he did all right, but he didn't. He didn't want to go to high school, so. So he went and got his ged and he was kind of still deciding what he was going to do because he was young and he started talking to these people on the base. I got involved with that.

[Narrator]

When he started sort of making these friends online and getting involved with the group. Did you notice any difference with him or. He must have been spending a lot of time online at that point.

[Tom Lane]

Yeah, most of it was at night, though. I questioned him about it. He wouldn't tell me the name of the group. I guess he didn't want me to research it or anything. But it, you know, it was a. I don't know. I guess white nationalist or something. I don't know. They weren't a violent group. Didn't seem like.

[Narrator]

Tom also wasn't alarmed by what was hanging on Luke's bedroom wall.

[Tom Lane]

Yeah, I mean, I saw the flag in there, but, you know, kids that age, they're going to kind of dabble in things, and, you know, they're still trying to find out who they want to be. So I. Yeah, I just kind of wrote it all off as that. And, you know, I figured it decide something different later on. You know, Luke's been all over the place. One time he wanted to go move to Russia, and then next thing you know, he's wanting to move to Ukraine and fight the Russians. And, you know, he didn't know what he wanted to do. He was just a young boy, you know, trying to find his way, and I figured he'd move to something else.

[Narrator]

What was the actual flag? Was it something identifiable or.

[Tom Lane]

I think it was a Nazi flag. I think it was a swastika, I think. I don't remember what it was. Tell you the truth here's a big red flag.

[Narrator]

So when you saw it, you just. You didn't recognize it as that necessarily. Necessarily. Or you thought, okay, he's going through a Nazi phase?

[Tom Lane]

Well, yeah. Yeah. I just figured he was going through a little phase.

[Narrator]

When other men started showing up at the house, Tom says he wasn't worried.

[Tom Lane]

You know, I thought they were just a group talking, you know, with the same ideology. And I didn't see anything that they were doing that was wrong. I mean, if I'd have known then what I know now, you know, I'd pull the plug on them coming out here. I mean, I didn't share all their ideology, but as far as I knew, they were doing nothing wrong.

[Narrator]

When I asked him if the name Patrick Matthews rings a bell, Tom said he remembers him well, Yeah, I knew him.

[Tom Lane]

He stayed here for, you know, a few weeks. He was, you know, polite. He always had something to say about anything. Just about.

[Narrator]

Yeah. He's a pretty chatty guy, from what I understand.

[Tom Lane]

Yeah. Yeah, he talked a lot. Luke probably talked less than any of them when, you know, when they were out here. Luke didn't say a whole lot. At least when I was around. Yeah, I think Luke paid more attention to him than he needed to. A lot of times. I wasn't a real fan of Patrick. Didn't really like him a whole lot.

[Narrator]

Why weren't you a fan?

[Tom Lane]

Well, it seemed like, I don't know, he tried to manipulate Luke in different ways. I think he'd tell Luke that we need to do this and we need to do that.

[Narrator]

It's funny, because we know from some of the other guys kind of said they didn't really like Patrick. They thought he was a bit of a loudmouth.

[Tom Lane]

Yeah. Yeah, he always had some. Had thoughts about anything, Any subject he brought up.

[Narrator]

But for Tom, Matthews wasn't the most memorable guy staying on his property. There was another man, older than the rest, who really piqued his interest.

[Tom Lane]

I'll call him Scott. Cause that's what he said his name was, But I'm sure that's not his name. He was probably 20 plus years older than the rest of them. 6'Two 6'Three 240, you know, big man, tattoos all over his arms. So they, you know, they all kind of looked up to him, I think. You know, when I first saw him, I was thinking, this guy's either a pedophile or he's. He's FBI. I asked him, I said, scott, you FBI? He said, no, no, man. I don't remember exactly what he said, but he denied it. And I told Luke he was FBI. And Luke said, no, we vetted him. We vetted him. I don't know how they went about their vetting, but it wasn't good, evidently. But I really wasn't alarmed about him being in there because I'd never seen him do nothing wrong. Very seldom did Luke go anywhere. He didn't go off, you know, in bars and drinking and running around. He didn't do any of that. So I really wasn't worried about Scott being here.

[Narrator]

But why would you think he would be FBI? I mean, why would you think that there would be an FBI guy hanging around?

[Tom Lane]

Why did I think there would be FBI guy hanging around? Well, anytime there's anything to do with race, which I knew whatever Luke was into was probably racial, which I don't agree with that, but they got their ears out everywhere. The ad, anything that got a hint of racism, they're gonna get in on it. You know, they think that's the worst thing in the world nowadays.

[Narrator]

Scott, the big older guy Tom suspected, was an undercover agent. Yeah, he was. And he's the reason we know as much as we do about the Silver Creek hate camp, which went beyond just flags and shooting guns. Here's Chris Joyner again.

[Chris Joiner]

What had allegedly happened is that as part of their camping weekend where they decided to go kidnap a. What's been described as a ram. It's also been described as a goat. I think it's probably a goat, not that it matters that much, but they brought it back to Luke Lane's property and attempted to slit its throat, ended up shooting it. They had a hard time killing it. None of them apparently have very much experience with livestock and beheaded it as part of some sort of pagan ceremony that they had. But it's also part of, you know, building up their both internal camaraderie, I guess, and their sort of external recruiting because they. They took photos of them all dressed up holding the goat head. And that came out in recruiting materials on far right channels.

[Narrator]

Someone claiming to have attended the camp later wrote a 3,000 word memoir describing that night, which happened to be Halloween. He says they all drank a sip of the animal's blood around, quote, the dim glow of our torches as a ritual bringing us closer together as brothers. He also says some of them dropped acid to celebrate. It's actually not that unusual for white supremacists to conduct this kind of ritual. There's a certain wing who embrace ancient Norse religions like Odinism. Anders Bering Breivik, the perpetrator of the 2011 Norway massacres, declared in court he was an Odinist. He named his pistol after the hammer of Thor. And pagans like him sometimes slaughter animals in sacrifice to the gods. Whatever the purpose of the sacrifice, that wasn't the FBI's main interest in the camp. It was less about what the base members did there than what some of them were planning to do.

[Chris Joiner]

According to what the undercover officer said, as they were planning a series of assassinations, the first one was going to be of a couple they believed were involved in leftists organizing antifa organizing, and they were going to go to that couple's home and assassinate them.

[Narrator]

But law enforcement weren't the only ones listening in. Patrick Matthews was still hanging around the camp and potentially hearing everything, making him a liability.

[Ryan Thorpe]

At this point, they've soured on Matthews. They think he's inept, they think he's bumbling. They're like, if we carry this out with him, you know, we're all going to end up in prison. But they have a bit of a problem on their hands if this married couple that they've identified together turns up dead in Georgia. Matthews is the one person who could potentially connect them because he would know who carried this out.

[Narrator]

Matthews doesn't know he's in danger, nor does this couple, who somehow landed on the base's hit list. And while the FBI is on the inside, these members are unpredictable and seem determined to act. And the plan for murder? It's not the only plot they have in the works. Coming up on White Hot Hate. There were no doubt tourists and wannabes at the camp, but it only takes a few to follow through with violence to cause huge damage.

[Ryan Thorpe]

They have to murder Matthews and then they'll come back to Georgia. They'll go to Atlanta. They'll burst into the house of this married couple, they'll shoot both of them dead, and then they'll burn the place to the ground. In this bizarre twist, Matthews now finds himself in the crosshairs.

[Tom Lane]

You know, I don't know that the base wasn't created by the FBI. You know, I don't. I don't much trust anything they do.

[Narrator]

White Hot Hate was written and produced by Ashley Mack and me, Michelle Shepherd. Our associate producer is Kim Kasher with production support from Sarah Melton. Additional reporting by Ryan Thorpe. Mixing and sound design by Danelle Cloutier and Julia Whitman, with technical assistance from Laura Antonelli. Emily Cannell is our digital producer. Fact checking by Emily Mattu and legal advice from Sean Moorman. Original music by Quiet type. Additional material from Fox News, India Today and Channel 4 News. Special thanks to the Winnipeg Free Press, the CBC Reference Library, Joshua Fisher Birch, Caroline Barghout and Sean Powers for CBC Podcasts. Our senior producer is Chris Oak and our executive producer is Arif Norani. For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.