Season 1, Episode 4: “It only takes a few”

Summary

White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse — Season 1, Episode 4: “It Only Takes a Few”

Release Date: November 9, 2021
Host: Michelle Shephard, CBC

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Overview

In the fourth episode of the first season of White Hot Hate, titled “It Only Takes a Few,” host Michelle Shephard delves deep into the shadowy intersections of neo-Nazi networks and undercover law enforcement operations in Georgia. The episode explores the intricate dynamics between extremist groups like The Base, anti-fascist activists (Antifa), and the FBI’s efforts to infiltrate and dismantle these organizations. Through interviews, firsthand accounts, and expert analysis, Shephard unravels the complexities and controversies surrounding undercover operations and their implications on both law enforcement and extremist activities.

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Key Topics and Discussions

1. Introduction to Anti-Fascist Activists and Their Mission

   • Michelle Shephard introduces a unique interview setup with members of Atlanta Antifa, who prioritize anonymity by using text-to-voice programs and encrypted communication.
   • [02:05] Anti-Fascist Activist 1: "Well, some neo-Nazis literally want to murder us. We have been highly disruptive to their organizing and when Trump was president, he threatened us regularly."

2. Surveillance of Neo-Nazi Groups

   • The episode outlines how Atlanta Antifa has been monitoring neo-Nazi activities in Georgia since 2018, particularly focusing on a recruiter for The Base, a prominent white supremacist group.
   • [03:43] Anti-Fascist Activist 1: "We were sure they were doing some kind of military training, especially since that kind of accelerationist Nazi culture is prevalent among ex-military and active military."

3. Case Study: Patrick Matthews and The Base

   • Patrick Matthews, a Canadian reservist with explosives training, becomes a focal point after his disappearance and subsequent appearance in Georgia.
   • The group planned a "hate camp" in late October 2019, where members like Luke Austin Lane, Jacob Catterley, and Michael Haltibrand discussed violent actions against perceived Antifa members.
   • [04:52] Anti-Fascist Activist 1: "There were no doubt tourists and wannabes at the camp, but it only takes a few to follow through with violence to cause huge damage."

4. FBI Infiltration and the Arrests

   • The FBI’s strategic installation of surveillance equipment in apartments led to the arrest of Patrick Matthews, Brian Laemmle Jr., and others across multiple states.
   • Evidence found included propaganda flyers, components for building assault rifles, and videos showcasing extremist rhetoric.
   • [08:44] Michelle Shephard: "During the search, the agents looked through Matthews' computer. They found videos where he spoke straight to the camera, spouting off in violent racist language..."

5. Impact on Targeted Individuals and Families

   • Tom Lane, father of Luke Austin Lane, expresses disbelief and suspicion towards the FBI’s role in his son's involvement.
   • [21:57] Tom Lane: "I don't know that the base wasn't created by the FBI. You know, I don't much trust anything they do."

6. Controversies Surrounding Undercover Operations

   • The episode touches upon the ethical debates of undercover operations, drawing parallels with the Toronto 18 jihadi case.
   • Mubin Sheikh, an undercover operative, defends the necessity of such operations despite criticisms.
   • [23:08] Mubin Sheikh: "We believe, like eyes and ears, evidence is better than an intercept. Right, because you need to put context to the conversation."

7. Legal and Societal Implications

   • Discussion on how increasing reliance on undercover tactics in far-right investigations might affect legal proceedings and public perception.
   • Statistics from a 2016 New York Times investigation highlight the prevalence of sting operations in terrorism prosecutions.

8. Conclusion and Ongoing Threats

   • Despite arrests, questions remain about the extent of The Base’s operations and potential future activities.
   • The episode concludes with reflections on the persistent threat of white supremacist groups and the complexities of combating them through undercover methods.

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Notable Quotes with Attribution and Timestamps

• Anti-Fascist Activist 1
  [02:05]: "Well, some neo Nazis literally want to murder us. We have been highly disruptive to their organizing and when Trump was president, he threatened us regularly."

• Ryan Thorpe, Winnipeg Free Press
  [05:16]: "They have done dry runs, they've identified the home... They're going to tape the long sleeves to their wrists and they're going to tape their pants around their ankles so they don't leave DNA behind."

• Tom Lane
  [21:57]: "I don't much trust anything they do."

• Mubin Sheikh, Undercover Operative
  [23:22]: "These people are not telling the world that they're terrorists. They're hiding it from their family members, other friends."

• Ryan Thorpe
  [13:56]: "...they want to cause chaos. They want to cause bloodshed. What they want to do is increase polarization, heighten the contradictions. Let's turn up the heat to get everyone more likely to take rash action."

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Insights and Analysis

• Effectiveness of Undercover Operations: The episode presents a nuanced view of undercover operations, highlighting their role in disrupting extremist activities while also pointing out potential ethical dilemmas and accusations of entrapment.

• Internal Dynamics of Extremist Groups: Through interviews and case studies, listeners gain an understanding of how extremist groups like The Base operate, including recruitment strategies, training, and the planning of violent actions.

• Community Impact and Fear: The threat of violence from neo-Nazi groups instills fear in targeted communities, as evidenced by the experiences of individuals like Tom Lane and the broader Antifa movement's efforts to protect themselves.

• Legal Challenges and Public Perception: The reliance on undercover methods raises questions about legal standards, the potential for wrongful convictions, and the broader implications for civil liberties.

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Conclusions

“It Only Takes a Few” underscores the intricate and often contentious battle between law enforcement and extremist groups. While undercover operations have proven instrumental in dismantling violent plots and apprehending key figures within neo-Nazi networks, they also spark debates about ethical boundaries and the potential for misuse. The episode encourages listeners to critically assess the balance between security measures and individual rights, especially in the context of combating rising hate movements.

Michelle Shephard adeptly navigates these complex themes, providing a comprehensive narrative that sheds light on the shadowy world of undercover operations and their pivotal role in addressing white supremacist threats in America.

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Production Credits:
White Hot Hate was written and produced by Ashley Mack and Michelle Shephard, with associate producer Kim Kasher. The team received production score support from Sarah Melton and additional reporting by Ryan Thorpe. Mixing and sound design were handled by Danelle Cloutier and Julia Whitman, with technical assistance from Laura Antonelli. Emily Cannell served as the digital producer, and fact-checking was conducted by Emily Matthieu and Zachary Kamel. Legal advice was provided by Sean Moorman, and original music was composed by Quiet Type. Additional material was sourced from Global News, WUSA9, Gun Talk Radio, the Alex Jones Show, NBC, CBS 11 Alive, and Fox News. Special thanks to the Winnipeg Free Press, the CBC Reference Library, Caroline Bargoot, and Sean Powers for CBC Podcasts. Senior producer Chris Oak and executive producer Arif Noorani oversaw the production.

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For More Information:
To explore more episodes of White Hot Hate, visit CBC Podcasts.

Transcript

[David Cochran]

I've been covering politics for 20 years and I can't remember a time like now when everything we thought we knew has been thrown in the air. From Trudeau's resignation to Trump's tariffs to a spring election during huge shifts in the polls. There's a lot at stake and Power and politics is here to guide you through it. I'm David Cochran and on CBC's only political daily, I speak to the key players in this election, from the candidates to the analysts to the journalists on the campaign trail. You can find power and politics wherever you get your podcasts, including YouTube.

[Michelle Shepherd]

This is a CBC podcast. The following episode contains coarse language and descriptions of violence. Please take care when listening. Hi, can you hear me? Okay.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

One sec, I'm getting some headphones.

[Michelle Shepherd]

This is a first for us, a phone interview where we're never going to hear the guest's voice. On the other end of the line are anti fascist activists. We believe two of them. They're from the group Atlanta Antifa, based in Georgia, and they're extremely concerned about keeping their identities a secret. So they're using a text to voice program. We're just going to do some levels and see how it sounds. You can just tell me what the weather's like there today if you want.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

Lots of sunshine, hot and humid, high near 95F, winds WNW at 5-10 mph.

[Michelle Shepherd]

That was a very complete weather report. Thank you. We're also connecting over an encrypted phone app. It's a bit cumbersome and takes a long time to do an interview, but it was the only workaround we could agree upon. I know the care that you take to keep your identity concealed. Why is it so strict?

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

Well, some neo Nazis literally want to murder us. We have been highly disruptive to their organizing and when Trump was president, he threatened us regularly.

[Chris Joyner]

President Donald Trump says the U.S. government.

[David Cochran]

Will designate anti fascist group Antifa as a terrorist organization.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

You know, they show up in the helmets and the black masks. Antifa.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Antifa groups like this one are on the front lines of combating white supremacist movements. They track the online and real world activities of neo Nazis, try to figure out their true identities and and make those details public if they believe they pose a big enough threat. In other words, they dox them, but they make sure to insist they do not work with law enforcement.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

One of the guiding principles of our group is that cops and courts cannot do our work for us. Often the people we research have deep ties to law enforcement, especially in rural Georgia. Sometimes law enforcement and non governmental white supremacists at odds with each other. True, but other times they will work together. Cops and Klan go hand in hand is a common saying. Amount militant anti fascists.

[Michelle Shepherd]

This group had been monitoring the base's activity in Georgia since 2018.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

We noticed that there was a recruiter for the base active in the Rome and North Georgia area.

[Michelle Shepherd]

This is where the base members would eventually hold a so called hate camp in late October 2019. According to Atlanta Antifa, this kind of activity wasn't new.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

We were sure they were doing some kind of military training, especially since that kind of accelerationist Nazi culture is prevalent among ex military and active military. The base were posting video and images of training camps on social media with.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Faces obscured after Patrick Matthews, a Canadian reservist with explosives training went missing and his truck was found at the border. The antifa activists weren't surprised when he showed up in Georgia.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

There were a limited number of places in the US where he could have gone after crossing the border. Since there was a property and support structure in Georgia and Matthew's military experience would have been attractive to the cell here, we thought it likely he'd eventually pay our state a visit.

[Michelle Shepherd]

The Georgia hate camp was a popular one and it included three prominent American members. 21 year old Luke Austin Lane who lived on the property, 19 year old Jacob Catterley and Michael Haltibrand, 25. The trio had allegedly discussed how they would murder a couple they believed were antifa members who lived about a 30 minute drive away.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

There were no doubt tourists and wannabes at the camp, but it only takes a few to follow through with violence to cause huge damage.

[Michelle Shepherd]

According to FBI records that have been filed in court, they had discussed multiple contingencies for the killing. And while those allegations are yet to be tested, Ryan Thorpe from the Winnipeg Free Press says the claims are pretty shocking.

[Ryan Thorpe]

That plan is disturbing. The level of detail that the trio is alleged to have plotted this out. They have done dry runs, they've identified the home, they at one point they're even talking about well what if they have children, what would we do then? And the consensus among the trio seems to be well, we'll go forward with it. We don't have a problem killing these, you know, commie kids. So they have false license plates. They've talked about putting Vaseline on their eyebrows so that they don't leave any sort of DNA behind. They're going to tape the long sleeves to their wrists and they're going to tape their pants around their Ankles so they don't leave DNA behind. Like it is wild. The extent to which they have thought through this.

[Michelle Shepherd]

I'm Michelle shepherd, and this is White hot hate. Episode 4 It only takes a few in early November 2019, as base members were still allegedly planning the assassination of the antifa couple, Patrick Matthews was packing his bags. He was leaving Georgia and heading back north. It was good timing for Matthews. He'd really fallen out of favor with the Georgia cell.

[Chris Joyner]

That's something that's kind of unexpected because these accelerationist groups really prize people with military or law enforcement backgrounds because not only do they give sort of authenticity to what they're doing, but they have training and then they can pass that training along.

[Michelle Shepherd]

This is Chris Joyner again, veteran reporter at the Atlanta Journal Constitution.

[Chris Joyner]

So you would think that Patrick Matthews would be a very valuable member of that group.

[Ryan Thorpe]

But.

[Chris Joyner]

But at least the Georgia cell was very suspicious of him and they did not particularly care for his what they considered his loose talk. And there was even some discussion that they might kill him because they felt like he might be the weak link in the chain. He was not popular member of that group.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Matthews and the others may have left the camp, but they were still under surveillance. They were watched when they drove through Virginia, watched when they re entered Maryland. And law enforcement was still on their tail. When Matthews and Brian Laemmle Jr. Moved into an apartment in Delaware away from the crew allegedly plotting a murder in Georgia, the two men started planning an attack of their own. So after about a month of watching them from afar, the FBI executed what's known as a sneak and peek warrant to search their apartment. They found the base propaganda flyers, knives and Meals Ready to eat or MREs. They also found the necessary components to build an assault rifle. It looked like they had ordered the parts online trying to build an untraceable ghost gun. And there was more testing, of course.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

The audio on this.

[Michelle Shepherd]

During the search, the agents looked through Matthews computer. They found videos where he spoke straight to the camera, spouting off in violent racist language about how he would further the movement in one. Matthews is wearing a gas mask and trying to disguise his voice.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

The time for words has ended. The time for podcasts has ended. You think politics is the solution? You are a damned fool. It is the system that is fomenting violent revolution, not us. And they shall now reap what they have sown. Your two options are as. Option number one, prepare for the collapse. Option number two, bring the collapse, derail some trains, kill some people, and poison some water supplies.

[Michelle Shepherd]

The video is disturbing, but law enforcement decided to wait to make a move and hope that Matthews didn't act first.

[Monica Lewinsky]

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me, and the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

Virginia Democrats plans to enact a sweeping series of gun measures have already fired a rebellion in dozens of counties. Now armed gun rights supporters from across the country are planning to sweep into Richmond on Martin Luther King Day, the.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Rally even getting the President's attention. He tweeted, quote, your Second Amendment is under very serious attack at the great Commonwealth of Virginia. That's what happens when you vote for Democrats. They will take your guns away. Most years, the annual lobby day in Virginia, organized by pro gun advocates, attracts a few hundred participants.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

Either show up or shut up. You can take time off. You can find a way, because if you don't, then you're giving up on the Second Amendment.

[Michelle Shepherd]

In January 2020, though, anticipation was building about a much larger rally. Virginia was on the cusp of passing gun control laws that, among other measures, would include mandatory background checks to purchase firearms. Buzz was building, not just among gun lobbyists who planned to turn out in force, but also militia groups, conspiracy theorists and far right extremists. It felt like a toxic brew, but.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

We'Re going to be there. We're going to be covering it all. This is the real fight for America. This is asymmetrical warfare by the deep state against our country. We need all eyes and ears on the ground in Virginia.

[Michelle Shepherd]

As the gun control debate is heating up across Virginia, so are the number of guns being walked out of State police were on high alert and those who were monitoring the base and like minded accelerationist groups were especially concerned. By this time, the FBI had installed a hidden CCTV camera and microphone in Matthew's and Laemmle's apartment. They'd recorded the men discussing the assault rifle they were making, as well as hours and hours of them spewing racist rhetoric against African Americans and Jews, something.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

That a lot of people don't know. A lot of race riots back in the day were started by whites we would start the riots, and you best believe we finished them. We need to go back to the days of decimating blacks and getting rid of them wherever they stand.

[Michelle Shepherd]

And Matthews had this to say about the upcoming pro gun rally in Richmond, Virginia.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

Get your asses there. The minute things escalate, get to every single thing you can. Take out power lines, everything. We need to fucking escalate this and spread that idea and just say, fucking bring the system down. When Virginia happens, we fucking kill the system. We, we stop the whole fucking thing.

[Michelle Shepherd]

The plan was to create bloody mayhem.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

Fan the flames, pour gasoline on the fire, and just let it fucking burn.

[Michelle Shepherd]

If you're wondering why neo Nazis would target a crowd of conservative and predominantly white gun enthusiasts, well, I had the same question and I asked Reinthorpe.

[Ryan Thorpe]

I think you have to go back and contextualize it within the framework of accelerationism. It does seem somewhat counterintuitive that these people who would be very pro gun rights, would attack a pro gun rights rally. But it just makes me think of Matthews in the park where he was saying, I want the liberals to get five terms in office. You know, I want Black Lives Matter active in every white neighborhood. They don't care who they maim or hurt or kill. It's difficult to get yourself into this mindset, but you have to understand, like, just the level of disregard for human life. Matthews and Laemmle, who are members of the base, were now targeted for execution by the members of the Georgia cell. So not only was this organization fine with, like, attacking right wing pro second amendment protesters, they were fine attacking each other. You know, it's like when you get that deep into, like terroristic, you know, revolutionary ideology or activity. It's a circular firing squad, right? They want to cause chaos. They want to cause bloodshed. What they want to do is increase polarization, heighten the contradictions. Let's turn up the heat to get everyone more likely to take rash action. So actually, I think it makes sense. I don't think it was an odd target for them to identify for an attack. I think it fits entirely in with their ideology.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Discussion online among anti government extremists started calling Monday's rally the Boogaloo. That's the name they've given to the violent event they believe will trigger the collapse of civil society and government. Accelerationists hope for the Boogaloo too. Except for them, it's the beginning of a race war from which they'll emerge the white victors.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

We have received credible intelligence from our law enforcement agencies that there are Groups with malicious plans for the rally that.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Is planned for Monday on January 15, 2020. Ralph Northam, the governor of Virginia, held this press conference just days before the pro gun rally in Richmond, the state Capitol.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

No one wants another incident like the one we saw in Charlottesville in 2017. We will not allow that mayhem and violence to happen here.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Richmond is about an hour's drive away from Charlottesville. Memories of the chaotic Unite the Right event held there in 2017 were still fresh. It's where a 20 year old black man was nearly beaten to death by a mob in a parking garage and 32 year old heather Heyer was murdered. She died after a white supremacist plowed his car into a crowd of counter protesters, hitting her and injuring dozens of others. Governor Northam, who had been elected just months after Charlottesville, wasn't taking any chances. He declared a state of emergency and he banned protestors from bringing their guns into Capitol Square. Then the next day, some breaking news.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

For months after Patrick Matthews disappeared at the Manitoba border, he lived in the shadows until the FBI knocked down the door of the Delaware apartment he was renting. He was arrested along with two other alleged members of an aggressive neo Nazi group called the Base.

[Michelle Shepherd]

The FBI had what they needed. They moved in. Nearly five months after he fled Canada, Patrick Matthews was finally apprehended.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

The FBI alleges they made a functioning assault rifle, bought 1650 rounds of ammunition.

[Michelle Shepherd]

And practiced at a local gun range. Agents say they talked about recruitment, creating a white ethno state and military style training camps. He was taken into custody along with Brian Laemmle Jr. And in Maryland, police picked up William Bilbrough IV. The FBI moved in on the Georgia crew too, the next day, arresting Luke Austin, Lane, Katterley and Haltebrand. They were charged with plotting to kill the couple they believed were antifa.

[Chris Joyner]

They are charged with a conspiracy to commit murder and participation in a criminal gang.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Tom Lane was at work when his son was arrested.

[Tom Lane]

Well, it was, it was during the day I got a call from an FBI agent saying that they had arrested Luke and asked if I could come home. And of course I did. And when I got here I probably had 30 FBI agents and I think all the Floyd county police was here and going through the house. They had my daughter and son in law and grandson outside. And the FBI agent told me that he had been arrested for conspiracy to commit murder.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Another alleged member of the base would be arrested in Wisconsin. Seven men across four states in two days. It was a coordinated sweep and it Was big news. Tensions are running high in Virginia after the arrests Friday of four more suspected neo Nazis connected to what authorities call a white supremacist group. And tonight, the FBI crackdown continues on white supremacist groups ahead of a pro gun rally next Monday in Richmond, Virginia.

[Mubin Sheikh]

Police say the three men arrested in Georgia and had trained at a camp for the white supremacist group known as the base in the northwest part of the state.

[Michelle Shepherd]

With various plots foiled, the rally in Virginia took place peacefully and the pair in Georgia were safe. Although deeply shaken. As it turns out, the base members had sloppy intel. The couple they had targeted apparently weren't even part of Atlanta Antifa.

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

They were not members and not even in our geographic area. So we tracked down how they got on Luke Austin Lane's radar. A sloppily constructed hit list of people all over Georgia who had happened to attend any anti fascist event. That list purported to expose members of Atlanta anti fascists. So the base members probably thought they were targeting our group even though they were mistaken.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Were you able to have any contact with that couple? And if so, can you just tell us a little bit about them? Not their IDs, but just how this impacted them?

[Anti-Fascist Activist 1]

We really can't comment on that.

[Michelle Shepherd]

But Chris Joyner did track them down after the arrests.

[Chris Joyner]

When I talked to the fellow who lived there, he was very shaken and was in the process of upgrading his home security as a result. Yeah, I can't even imagine what that was like like for him. From what I can tell, the person they assumed was his wife was just a friend who was standing next to him. My understanding of this fella was he would be probably in the very progressive wing of left wing activism, but not somebody who was like a brawler. He's the kind of person that would show up with a sign and would shout at the other side and then probably go back home and live his, you know, regular day to day life until the next time he went out. He feels very strongly that, you know, racism is bad and that people who promote a white ethno state are dangerous to the union. And he goes out and he counter protests those like a lot of people do.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Tom Lane, Luke's father, says he doesn't believe any of it. He doubts the murder plot was ever going to be put in motion.

[Tom Lane]

Those three boys had talked about how they would get away with it and how they would do it, but they never had made a date to do it. I think it was just a lot of talk is all it was. I Just don't believe that Luke would have ever went through with that.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Tom says he suspects the real instigator was the undercover FBI agent.

[Tom Lane]

I feel like the, you know, the FBI implant, he kind of led them in that direction. Certainly he didn't do anything to deter it. You know, these. These were young guys, like 19, 20 years old, and I think they, you know, they pretty much just took advantage of their youth. I don't know what caused the FBI to start watching these guys, but they had been watching them for a while. The group they were in, the base, they're all about preserving the white heritage of the United States. You know, just the exact opposite of what, you know. A lot of the black lives matter things. They're. They're wanting to destroy anything that has to do with white race. You know, I don't know that the base wasn't created by the FBI. You know, I don't much trust anything they do.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Remember Mubin Sheikh, the undercover operative on the Toronto 18 homegrown jihadi case? He knows this issue well. Debate inside the courthouse and out was whether Mubin was too much of a driving force in that case.

[Mubin Sheikh]

Just because they're involved in discussing a plot doesn't mean they're generating the plot. Generating the plot means there is no plot. The undercover goes in, comes up with the plot, and now there's a plot.

[Michelle Shepherd]

I think there have been accusations that you devised the training camp, right?

[Mubin Sheikh]

Oh, yes, of course. Everything became Bin Sheik's fault.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Mubin definitely had his critics. But in the end, the judge who presided over those Toronto 18 trials accepted his testimony, writing the defense did not seriously challenge Sheik's credibility. Though he feels vindicated, Mubin still gets frustrated by this strategy relied on by the defense for accused extremists.

[Mubin Sheikh]

Again, I think the public doesn't have a good understanding of how undercover operations are done. We have long since accepted the fact that the only way for us to collect evidence of criminality by individuals who are acting covertly is through covert collection means. These people are not telling the world that they're terrorists. They're hiding it from their family members, other friends. So the only way you're going to get information of wrongdoing at that level is by an undercover. Because we believe, like eyes and ears, evidence is better than an intercept. Right, because you need to put context to the conversation. It's no different sending an undercover into a jihadist group than sending an undercover into an outlaw motorcycle club. It's the exact same thing. There's no difference between Sending then an undercover pretending that they're a terrorist, because if somebody was not of that mindset, they would say, whoa, I'm not down with this, or they would express some objection. So people can make the accusation, but honestly, it's very lazy to do that because you have to look at the test of entrapment, which is making somebody do something that they would not normally do or something that they are not already predisposed to do it.

[Michelle Shepherd]

But terrorism cases have been overturned, cases when undercover operators have gone too far. A 2016 New York Times investigation found that stings accounted for two of every three prosecutions involving people suspected of supporting the Islamic State. Now the use of this tactic when investigating the far right is becoming the norm. And as those cases make their way to trial, the roles of informants and undercover agents will again be challenged. So what do you think, Tom? What do you think's next for your son?

[Tom Lane]

Hopefully, he won't be in prison. You know, they'll acquit him or he won't have to spend too much time in jail.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Luke Austin Lane and the hate camp attendees who were arrested have been indicted on animal cruelty charges related to the sacrifice of the ram or goat. And Lane faces the charge of conspiracy to murder the couple, arson and home invasion, along with his co accused Jacob Catterley and Michael Heltibrand. They've all pleaded not guilty. And the base member apprehended in Wisconsin during the sweep of arrests in January 2020, he was charged with vandalism after he spray painted anti Semitic phrases, a swastika and the symbol for the base on a local synagogue. And in Maryland, Patrick Matthews and his co accused awaited trial for firearm and obstruction of justice offenses. Suddenly, stories of the base were everywhere. In the months to follow, countries including Canada and the UK listed the group as a terrorist entity, joining the ranks of Al Qaeda and isis. But still, there were so many unanswered questions. How many more members were out there? What were they planning? And just who was the leader of this group? Who was the man who started this all? Coming up on White Hot Hate.

[Tom Lane]

No, no. If you had asked me to make a list of the folks who would end up founding a radical right wing organization. Nah, I got a hundred names I'd put on that list before I would have come to his.

[Michelle Shepherd]

I'm a licensed firearm owner. I have a clean record with the police. I have been part of several white nationalist movements.

[Tom Lane]

Okay?

[Ryan Thorpe]

I am 26 years old. I served several months in the German army. We call it verdienst in Germany.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Some of the applicants and members that you approved of praise the Christchurch shooter or Breivik did in Norway. I couldn't associate with people who praise those actions. And yet you bring them into an organization that you created, right?

[Anti-Fascist Activist 2]

Because they have a militant mindset that we need.

[Michelle Shepherd]

White Hot Hate was written and produced by Ashley Mack and me, Michelle Shepherd. Our associate producer is Kim Kasher with production score support from Sarah Melton. Additional reporting by Ryan Thorpe Mixing and sound design by Danelle Cloutier and Julia Whitman with technical assistance from Laura Antonelli. Emily Cannell is our digital producer. Fact checking by Emily Matthieu and Zachary Kamel Legal advice from Sean Moorman. Original music by Quiet Type Additional material from Global News, WUSA9, Gun Talk Radio, the Alex Jones Show, NBC, CBS 11 Alive and Fox News. Special thanks to the Winnipeg Free Press, the CBC Reference Library, Caroline Bargoot and Sean Powers for CBC Podcasts. Our senior producer is Chris Oak and our executive producer is Arif Noorani.

[Mubin Sheikh]

Foreign.

[Michelle Shepherd]

For more CBC Podcasts go to CBC CA Podcasts.