← White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 1, Episode 6: “Give them what they deserve”
00:39:04
<p>Patrik Mathews could be facing up to 25 years in prison for U.S. firearm offences. His and others’ arrests may have destroyed the appeal of accelerationist groups like The Base — but where is the movement heading now? For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/white-hot-hate-transcripts-listen-1.6226840</p>
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- [00:00]
David Cochran
How are Canadians bracing for a full on trade war without US buy in? Can Canada really help Ukraine? And is Canadian patriotism messing with conservative strategy? We explore questions like these on power and politics, CBC's only political daily. I'm David Cochran. I speak to the key players in the political stories everyone is talking about. You'll hear from those who've got the power, those who want it, and those affected most by it. You, you can find power and politics wherever you get your podcasts, including YouTube. This is a CBC podcast.
- [00:37]
Michelle Shepherd
The following episode contains strongly racist language and descriptions of violence. Please take care when listening.
- [00:46]
Ryan Thorpe
So it was January 16, 2020, and I had been covering this removal of this homeless encampment down on Main Street. It was really cold. I'd been sitting in my car since 5 in the morning because like, I didn't know what time this was going to happen. And as this was kind of wrapping up, my phone just started blowing up. I could feel it vibrating in my pocket. I checked and I had a text message from my editor who said, Matthews has been arrested. You know, get back to the newsroom. And he had dropped a link to a New York Times article about Matthews arrest.
- [01:20]
Michelle Shepherd
Just five and a half months after Winnipeg Free Press reporter Ryan Thorpe had gone undercover to infiltrate the base, Patrick Matthews was arrested. The former Canadian army reservist was charged with unlawfully entering the US and the illegal purchase of weapons. Ryan made it to the Maryland courtroom. When Matthews was first brought before a.
- [01:43]
Ryan Thorpe
Judge, I wasn't really sure what to expect. The proceedings about to get underway in like the side room to the court. The door swings open and you can hear like chains jangling a bit. And then Matthews gets let in and he's wearing like an orange prison jumpsuit and he's shackled and he's got this big bushy beard back again and his hair is longer. I know that after we published the first article, Matthews, I think in an attempt to disguise his identity, shaved his face completely and shaved his head. But by this point, you know, after five, six months, kind of on the lam, he looks like he did when I first met him in Whittier park in Winnipeg. And as he's being let in, he's kind of scanning the crowd a little bit and you know, I swear to God, like, he zooms in on me and like our eyes lock and there's like a sense of recognition there. And it seems pretty clear to me that he remembers me. And then, you know, I think I drop my eyes to my notebook and jot down Some notes, and by the time I look back, he's seated.
- [02:47]
Michelle Shepherd
The Patrick Matthews that Ryan knew while undercover, first on the vetting call and then during his face to face meeting in the park, was pretty consistent with the Matthews seated before the judge. Confident, disdainful, pretty cocky.
- [03:04]
Ryan Thorpe
It was like he didn't accept the legitimacy of the proceedings. He didn't seem to be taking it very seriously. He was like leaning back, right, reclining in his chair. At one point, someone is reading into the court record his statement. That's taken from a self recorded propaganda video that the FBI had pulled from his laptop. And the quote from him is, derail.
- [03:28]
Patrick Matthews
Some trains, kill some people, and poison some water supplies.
- [03:33]
Ryan Thorpe
And as this is read into the court record, Matthews is like chuckling to himself. He's laughing.
- [03:58]
Michelle Shepherd
I'm Michelle shepherd and this is the season finale of White Hot Hate, Episode six, Give them what they deserve. Patrick Matthews, as he first sat in court after his arrest, may have acted like this was all a joke, but the hatred he spread, that type of intolerance has very real consequences.
- [04:24]
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein
We need to see an evolution in the laws and the way that we deal with these groups. I'd like to see a lot more education on it in the public school system. They need to be exposed, and I think when that happens that it will become much more stigmatized to be a part of it.
- [04:40]
Michelle Shepherd
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein lives in Orange County, California with her husband Gideon and two kids. She's a motivational speaker, a role she took on recently because of tragedy.
- [04:54]
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein
I just think that it wouldn't be right for my son to have been a victim of such a terrible crime and to allow this to potentially happen to other people too. If we can try to give people some awareness of the danger in this country that is posed by extreme hate.
- [05:14]
Michelle Shepherd
Her eldest son, Blaze, was a bright, popular 19 year old. Toothy grin, an easy laugh. He was a foodie too, an amateur chef, and he loved to write, which made him the perfect pick as managing editor of Pen Appetit, the University of Pennsylvania's food magazine.
- [05:33]
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein
He had just finished the first semester of his second year and he was really excited to come home because he had not come home for Thanksgiving. We were all very excited to see him. Everybody was excited. His grandparents, siblings. You know, we had a lot of downtime. I wanted to give him a lot of space to rest because it had been such a difficult semester.
- [05:58]
Michelle Shepherd
This was January 2018.
- [06:01]
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein
A few days before he was supposed to return back to school, Blaze went missing. He failed to show up for a dental appointment that I had with him.
- [06:12]
Michelle Shepherd
Jeannie, how did you know when something was wrong? Did you have sort of like a motherly instinct at that moment or was it just so out of character for him to miss an appointment?
- [06:23]
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein
It was both things. It was because Blaze was really looking forward to that dental appointment because he was just about to get rid of a bridge that he had and he was about to get an implant. I knew he wanted to be at that appointment with me. We talked about that. And then when I got home, I found his wallet and his retainer and his contact lens case. And I knew that he wouldn't ever walk out of the house without those things unless he was planning to return very soon. I knew something was really wrong.
- [06:59]
Kim Matthews
Police searching by ground with canines and.
- [07:01]
Patrick Matthews
By air with helicopters.
- [07:03]
Michelle Shepherd
No sign of the University of Pennsylvania pre med student. The community came out en masse to help police search for Blaze. But about a week after his disappearance, his body was found in a shallow grave on the edge of a neighborhood park.
- [07:19]
Ryan Thorpe
And we just have learned that the O.C.
- [07:21]
David Cochran
Sheriff'S Department and coroner's office has confirmed that our family's worst fears could come.
- [07:26]
Ryan Thorpe
True and they have positively identified our son Blaze's body today. We have had people do random acts.
- [07:37]
Michelle Shepherd
Of kindness and so many friends and family that have reached out to us. It's unbelievable what you people have done for us and our son and his memory. Soon after, a 20 year old man was arrested and charged with Blaze's killing. He had been a former classmate at their performing arts high school.
- [08:04]
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein
He had been violently murdered and the suspect is or was a member of a little known extreme group of neo Nazis called Atomwaffen. And I don't really like to talk that much about them because they're not worth our time really, other than it's important to know that these things exist and that we need to keep our children away from them any way we can.
- [08:32]
Michelle Shepherd
Blaze was stabbed as many as 20 times. Orange county district prosecutors are pursuing the case as a hate crime, alleging Blaze was killed because he was Jewish and gay. It was journalist Ollie Winston, working with colleagues who exposed the accused connection to Atomwaffen division. They reported for ProPublica that he had been a committed member of who at one point attended a hate camp in Texas. After the news broke, Atomwaffen celebrated the killing in internal chats, one member praised the alleged murderer as a one man gay Jew wrecking crew. While Jeannie says she always knew that Blaze might encounter anti Semitism and bigotry in his life, she never Imagined a group like Atomwaffen devastating her family in the way they did.
- [09:26]
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein
I don't know if I'd ever heard of Adam often. I mean, I really probably had my head in the sand as much as everybody else here in Orange county in California, in the United States at the time. I don't think that there still is a lot of very good understanding of what is really going on in our society with regards to this demographic that becomes involved in, in an Atom Waffen or other neo Nazi group.
- [09:54]
Michelle Shepherd
Ginny would rather talk about Blaze, not these groups. She'd always thought Blaise was pretty exceptional, but after his death she learned just how much he meant to others around him.
- [10:07]
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein
He wasn't just a really smart kid and really outspoken. He also was a person that took credit. Great interest in helping people. I've received over the last three years quite a bit of email and messaging from the public from people that knew my son and who had stories for me about things that he did for them. If he hadn't died, I don't know if I ever would have learned about the things, the wonderful, amazing things that he did.
- [10:40]
Michelle Shepherd
She and her husband channeled that kindness their son had inspired into setting up what they call a movement, Blaze it Forward. It's a charitable fund to support children, LGBTQ and marginalized groups.
- [10:56]
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein
Being in the public eye and being able to show people that Blaise was a Jewish gay person that was going to do great things for this world. He was going to make this world a better place. And he's gone now because of hate, because of violence, because of ignorance. You can change things. You don't have to raise your kids in a bubble where they are culturally deprived. You can take your kids out and have them see this diverse world and the importance of all of us working together. We don't really have the infrastructure or the mental health care services to deal with these young men. So things probably need to change. But they the advice for parents is just if you have not had these discussions with your kids about hate and let them know that you don't accept any form of hate in your home, but go do it if you haven't yet.
- [11:49]
Michelle Shepherd
The case hasn't been tried in court yet, but Blaze's murder was just one of five allegedly linked to Atomwaffen Division in a two year stretch. Atomwaffen gives us a glimpse of where the base was potentially headed if law enforcement hadn't cracked down. And the two groups clearly have a lot in common. Those leaked internal recordings of the base reveal how they act like Sister organizations, some recruits even held dual membership.
- [12:21]
Ryan Thorpe
They absolutely have the same ideology and structure, and they want to achieve the same types of things. And so while some people might point, point to the base and say, well, they never pulled anything off, again, I would underline not for lack of trying. And two, that their comrades in arms, people that they have specifically pointed to as being of the same movement, have killed people and have attempted to pull off significant acts of destruction.
- [12:49]
Michelle Shepherd
Figuring out how to combat this type of terrorism means really understanding where these groups come from, who is at risk of joining them, and why the names of the organizations will change. The base and Atomwaffen division were gutted by media and law enforcement investigations. But like any terrorism threat, you can't respond with arrests or sanctions alone. You're fighting an ideology, an us against them mentality. The question now is, what's happening to the accelerationist movement itself? Where is it headed?
- [13:31]
Cassie Miller
I'm Cassie Miller. I'm a senior research analyst at the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project, where I study hate and extremism, in particular white nationalism and neo Nazism.
- [13:43]
Michelle Shepherd
Cassie has a PhD in history. And you know what? Knowing your history really helps when looking at white supremacist violence. To understand this modern accelerationist movement, I'm going to take her back to the Vietnam War and civil rights era.
- [13:59]
Cassie Miller
People were coming back from the war to a highly militarized society. And you had created a political context where people were told that they needed to fight back against communism. And in the United States, the communist menace really took the form of civil rights activists, integrationists. People felt like they needed to really carry on the war abroad at home. So what we saw was that this movement became more and more militarized and really more and more violent. And so you saw the growth of a lot of groups that were creating compounds where they were engaging in military training, where they were actively recruiting people who had served in the military because of the specific skills that they had and who were arguing that the only way forward for the white power movement was to tear down the state itself through acts of violence. And that's the only way that they could then rebuild the kind of ethnonationalist society that they wanted to achieve.
- [15:03]
Michelle Shepherd
Over the next 20 years, white power activism and anti government extremism strengthened and grew, but that confidence inside the movement evaporated after the Oklahoma City bombing.
- [15:17]
Cassie Miller
We saw a lot of changes in the far right and really a kind of collapse or demobilization within the movement. A lot of people were rightly afraid of the fact that federal law enforcement was now taking this problem more seriously. The federal government saw it really as the primary domestic terror concern within the nation. That changed after September 11th.
- [15:47]
Jeannie Pepper Bernstein
I think we have a terrorist act of proportions that we cannot begin to imagine at this juncture.
- [15:53]
Cassie Miller
The federal law enforcement switched up their focus. They were almost wholly focused on foreign terrorism and jihadism. And any kind of pressure that they were putting on white power groups really fell by the wayside.
- [16:09]
Michelle Shepherd
And do you see any parallels in terms of how you explained Vietnam and then what followed 9, 11 in terms of the militarization of the U.S. i think so.
- [16:20]
Cassie Miller
You know, we now live in a highly militarized society, and the war on terror really put us into this period of kind of never ending war. It also really helped to normalize and make acceptable anti Muslim bigotry. And the normalization of those kinds of bigoted beliefs really helps to create a fertile ground for these kinds of hate groups.
- [16:47]
Michelle Shepherd
And who signs up to these groups should be alarming. The founder of the base, Ronaldo Nazaro, may be close to 50, but the overwhelming majority of recruits are half his age. Millennials or even younger. In the leaked vetting calls, a disturbing number of applicants identified themselves as teens who were radicalized years earlier.
- [17:13]
Ryan Thorpe
How old are you? Seventeen. I'm 18 in a couple months.
- [17:17]
Michelle Shepherd
How old are you?
- [17:18]
Ryan Thorpe
I'm 17.
- [17:19]
Michelle Shepherd
Okay, so how old are you?
- [17:22]
Eric Barron
I'm seventeen.
- [17:24]
Ryan Thorpe
I turned like 19, like, a few weeks ago. I got into fascism back when I was like, 14, 15.
- [17:36]
Cassie Miller
You know, these groups use humor as a tactic. Andrew Anglin, who runs the Daily Stormer, which is a neo Nazi website, has said that he's trying to attract boys as young as 11 into this movement and using humor to do so, saying, you know, it's all just a big joke. We're all just laughing together and using that to then slowly introduce them to these racist ideas until they start to realize that they're not so much of a joke, that this is actually the ideology that they're pushing. It creates kind of a softer landing for people to be integrated into these movements. And so that's a really explicit strategy to try and get young people involved, but also, you know, just how pervasive the Internet is. And people are getting on the Internet very young. And what we've seen through many, many years of research in the far right is that people are coming into contact with these extremist ideas younger, and they're becoming radicalized faster than they were in the past.
- [18:46]
Michelle Shepherd
And it's a movement wide trend recently, the leader of another international neo Nazi group was unmasked by an Estonian newspaper to be a local 13 year old boy.
- [18:59]
Cassie Miller
It's easy because of the way that social media is designed, because of how these groups know how to take advantage of these algorithms to promote themselves to really slip into these extremist circles. You know, it used to be that you would have to meet someone or encounter literature in the real world to be introduced to these movements and maybe eventually join a group. The Internet has gotten rid of all of that.
- [19:29]
Michelle Shepherd
The Daily Stormer was just one of these online spaces. Ironmarch, the so called birthplace of Atomwaffen Division, was another. There are dozens of other forums where the users who post the most violent and uncompromising rhetoric rise to the top. It's called purity spiraling.
- [19:48]
Cassie Miller
It's this idea that people are going to push the most extreme ideas. You know, in some of these spaces, people try to moderate what people say. They want to be acceptable towards mainstream audiences, so they don't want to be too explicit in their racism or too explicit about using violent tactics. But in a place like Iron March, which was supposed to be a place to develop the purest form of fascism, they actively encourage people to push for the most extreme solutions in the race.
- [20:26]
Michelle Shepherd
To one up each other and prove themselves to be the most committed. Is it really a surprise that online conversations become real world dangers? Patrick Matthews would talk about this in court, claiming that's how he became radicalized. He told the judge, I tried to fit in with people and you adapt to their beliefs. It was, quote, like a competition. Who could be more extreme? And then he said he took it too far.
- [21:03]
Monica Lewinsky
At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.
- [21:48]
Michelle Shepherd
Well, let's see. We are an hour and a half.
- [21:52]
Ryan Thorpe
We're very early.
- [21:56]
Michelle Shepherd
It's a gorgeous fall morning, late October. The sun is just coming up as we arrive at the Maryland courthouse. There's one other car in the parking lot, another media outlet, and yeah, we're an hour and a half early because there's barely any room in the courtroom, you think there'll be like, room for like two people?
- [22:19]
Ryan Thorpe
Two plus overflow.
- [22:21]
Michelle Shepherd
Right. Okay. Well, at least it's a nice morning in Maryland. Okay. We're really early, but we both want to make sure we get to see Matthews in the court. For me, it's the first time I've laid eyes on him. About four months earlier, he surprised everyone by changing his plea to guilty. Y'all gonna set up up here?
- [22:45]
Ryan Thorpe
Okay.
- [22:45]
Michelle Shepherd
Yes, I'm going into the courtroom, but I can put it in my bag.
- [22:48]
Ryan Thorpe
And turn it off.
- [22:50]
Michelle Shepherd
Okay.
- [22:51]
Ryan Thorpe
Yeah, well. Yeah, you can do that.
- [22:53]
Michelle Shepherd
Okay. In Matthew's plea agreement, both sides accepted the following facts. He had been a member of the base. He had crossed the border illegally. He had attended that October 2019 hate camp, and he had been building an assault style rifle. But the charges he actually pleaded guilty to were, in the grand scheme of things, considered minor firearm offenses and obstruction of justice. That last one was for smashing his cell phone and dumping it in the toilet during his arrest. In US Federal law, there is no standalone offense for domestic terrorism. To be charged with terrorism, it has to be international in scope, like connected to ISIS or some foreign group. But if a crime was committed with the intent to, quote, promote an act of terror, like intimidating the public or influencing the government, a judge can give a stiffer sentence. It's what's known as terrorism. Sentencing enhancements. And a sentence of three years behind bars could become 25. To support his argument that Matthews was trying to terrorize, the prosecutor submitted a video that Matthews self recorded in 2019.
- [24:10]
Patrick Matthews
These people make us out to be evil incarnate. They want bad guys so bad they can have it. We'll give them bad guys. We will. Give them white supremacist terrorists if that's what they want. Give them what they want. Give them what they deserve.
- [24:33]
Michelle Shepherd
Then there's this clip where you can hear Matthews talking to Brian Laemley Jr. His roommate and co accused.
- [24:40]
Patrick Matthews
But now, that being said, they're going to call us terrorists, and it's just going to be that they're going to try to keep us in jail as long as possible. So the question is, if you're going to go to jail anyway, might as well go to jail for something good. Might as well do some damage to the system.
- [24:58]
Michelle Shepherd
No offense to the legal prowess of the prosecution, but they had a lot of material to work with. Matthews and Laemmle talking about the violence they hoped would further their cause. And all the evidence the FBI seized from their apartment. A night vision Scope for a rifle, a ballistic calculator for a deadly accurate shot, fatigues, and an exhibit bag so heavy with ammunition the prosecutor struggled to lift it from the table. It was clear Matthews and Laemmle were prepping for something. But what exactly?
- [25:34]
Patrick Matthews
We don't have to reveal that we are National Socialists, but we just have to reveal to these patriots. Etc. Yeah, we're the good guys. We're on your side.
- [25:43]
Michelle Shepherd
Yep.
- [25:44]
Patrick Matthews
And we fucking killed the government, which is the enemy. Thereby, we are helping the acceleration. Well, yeah, I just. We can't really live with ourselves if we don't get some, like, blood on our hands. How bad would you feel if there was a Battle of Richmond and you weren't even there?
- [26:07]
Michelle Shepherd
Those voices you're hearing, it's Matthews and Laemmle with an undercover FBI agent. The same one they met at the Georgia hate Camp and the Battle of Richmond. That was the pro gun rally to be held in Virginia state Capitol in January 2020. The ideal opportunity to create chaos and spark a race war. But the defense argued these isolated clips were not proof, certainly not evidence the men were intending to carry out a terrorist attack. There were hundreds of hours of recorded conversations while they were under surveillance. They argued it was aspirational rather than operational talk. The defense also claimed the undercover coaxed and goaded them into saying these things. Besides, they said Matthews and Laemmle had been drunk most of the time. Laemmle's lawyer also challenged the seriousness of the Battle of Virginia plan. He said his client and Matthews had apparently changed their minds. Shortly before they were arrested, they'd planned to attend a training camp in Michigan. Instead, the lawyer pointed to this exchange between the undercover and the two men.
- [27:20]
Ryan Thorpe
How can you do that if you're going to Michigan? Because that's a hell of a guy.
- [27:23]
Patrick Matthews
Right now, we're eschewing the Virginia plan for the Michigan plan. Because the way that it looks like to me is that the government is going to wait out until these protests die out. They're going to pass the real meat and potatoes after the 20th.
- [27:39]
Ryan Thorpe
But I certainly don't want to be in the crowd, and I certainly don't.
- [27:43]
Patrick Matthews
Want to be storming any buildings with a bunch of retards.
- [27:49]
Michelle Shepherd
Here's the thing. In any criminal case, it's easy to be swayed by one side or the other. And in this case, there were so many plans, so many discussions, it can be tough to pin down a clear picture. For instance, there were conversations about assassinating Virginia's speaker of the House. They looked up her home address. And when they couldn't find a good sniper position, they considered how to kill her on a route to work. But another time they concocted a harebrained scheme to break mass shooter Dylann Roof out of prison. At one point, they mused about how they could get an armored vehicle to ram the gates.
- [28:27]
Patrick Matthews
We'd be like, there'd be like a fucking selfie picture of like me and like us masked up being like. The base would be known as the guys who broke out Dylann Roof.
- [28:41]
Michelle Shepherd
Judge Theodore Chuang wasn't swayed by arguments that Matthews crime was just talk. He concluded Matthews and Laemmle were serious, specific and calculating in their discussions, adding they were not wide eyed neophytes pressured into acts by the undercover. And he ruled that the terrorism sentencing enhancements would apply. Before Matthews was sentenced, his father Glenn took the stand and made an emotional speech. His voice broke when he talked about his son's compassion for animals. He said what he'd heard in court was not the son I know and love unconditionally. The good thing is the Pat I know is still here. Me and my family will never give up on him. We will never stop loving him. Then Matthews stood. He dramatically flipped his hair, now long past his shoulders from his face. He said it was a mistake to flee Canada. And when it came to his racist rhetoric and the extensive prepping, Matthews claimed, I tried to be the best friend I can be, but I picked the wrong set of friends. At the end of the day, I wasn't going to hurt anybody. He ended by telling the judge he'd like to quote a fellow Canadian, the singer Michael Buble. Matthews said, I want to go home.
- [30:12]
Cassie Miller
Can you just give us your name and who you were representing?
- [30:15]
Ryan Thorpe
Yeah, I'm Joe Balter. I represent Patrick Matthews.
- [30:17]
Cassie Miller
What did you make of the sentence?
- [30:19]
Ryan Thorpe
Well, we're disappointed. We had asked for a sentence of 33 months, which was at the bottom of the guideline. And the judge was balancing a number of different factors which he's supposed to do. But we're disappointed the sentence didn't end up at the low end.
- [30:37]
Michelle Shepherd
Matthew's got nine years. That's on top of the nearly two years he served pretrial largely in solitary confinement. We asked to speak to him through his lawyer, but never got a reply. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.
- [30:52]
Cassie Miller
1, 2, 3,4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.
- [30:55]
Michelle Shepherd
The U.S. attorney Eric Barron will be speaking and then FBI's SAC Tom. A small podium was set up outside the courthouse for statements. A line of blue Suits walked somberly forward.
- [31:07]
Eric Barron
Good afternoon. We're here because of the conclusion of an important federal criminal matter. These men sought to divide our community based on hate and through acts of violence and terror, they collected and assembled weapons and ammunition, trained for acts of violence, vetted others for their cause, and attempted to recruit like minded extremists. Now, let me be clear. We do not investigate and prosecute individuals for their beliefs, however hateful. But we do prosecute violence and threats of violence. And we hope today's sentences deter others from such actions.
- [31:53]
Michelle Shepherd
Matthew's mother, Kim, who had come from Manitoba for the sentencing, also spoke to reporters.
- [32:00]
Kim Matthews
No one wants to be in this position as a mother, but I know I am a changed person for it. I have so much compassion for anybody that it gets into trouble, you know, and he certainly got in trouble. He. Nazaro, where the fuck are you?
- [32:15]
Michelle Shepherd
As Matthew's mom evoked the name of the base's founder, she looked around as if genuinely looking for an answer, then continued.
- [32:24]
Kim Matthews
And we need a middle person. Just like when you have an undercover person that goes in there to cultivate and try to get them to do more. Why not hire somebody good and try to steer them where they've fallen, in a place where they shouldn't be. He's innocent. You know, there's so many young men under the ages of 27. They're not mature, 27 and under. They seriously not. Pat had paid for his bills and he had a job, but he made poor decisions based on his age and feeling vulnerable and he lost his support system. And I'm really sort of angry a little bit with the reporter Ryan Thorpe, you know, if he would have had some compassion for him and he didn't, you know, and I know there's a lot of people that are thinking the same as I am and I'm a Winnipeggin and you know, you're on my turf, man. And if I see you, you know, I want to tell him what he did was slightly wrong.
- [33:21]
Michelle Shepherd
But don't you think journalists have a role to play?
- [33:24]
Kim Matthews
Ruin people's life? No.
- [33:28]
Michelle Shepherd
Ryan knows Patrick Matthews family are not fans, to say the least. They blame him for all of this. As the last of the reporting was done, we drove away from the courthouse. I know it's still early to kind of process, but do you think it was a fair sentence?
- [33:46]
Ryan Thorpe
Yeah, I don't know because like, my instinct as a reporter is to be like, well, it's not the job of journalists who adjudicate, you know, these sorts of issues. That's a matter for a jury, for a judge, for the court process. The judge, you know, he kind of laid it on the line where he's like, you're lucky. The FBI shut the shit down a couple of steps before it actually got worse and more real. Because then, you know, you would be looking at, like, mandatory life.
- [34:13]
Michelle Shepherd
More sentences soon followed. The three base members from Georgia pleaded guilty to membership in a criminal gang and conspiring to murder targets they believed were antifa activists. Jacob Catterley, only 19 when he was arrested, was sentenced to six years. Cell leader Luke Austin Lane was sentenced to 13. It came out in court that he talked about killing his own dad, Tom. And while in jail, he reportedly defaced the walls with swastikas. And Michael Haltebrand, the third member of that crew, was given a sentence of 20 years in part because he'd brutally assaulted a fellow inmate while awaiting trial. These sentences come at a time when the FBI is devoting more resources to investigating militias and white supremacist violence. And that's changed the landscape.
- [35:08]
Cassie Miller
At the splc, we do a census of hate groups every year, and we found that they actually fell between 2019 and 2020, from 940 to 838.
- [35:21]
Michelle Shepherd
Cassie Miller, again from the Southern Poverty Law Center.
- [35:25]
Cassie Miller
And while it's about an 11% decline and it might suggest that the FAR rate is maybe weakening, I don't think that's the case. And what I think the decline in groups really signals is they're just adopting new organizational tactics. It's not a decline in the threat that is posed by far right extremists. It just means that people are less inclined to join formally organized groups and are really kind of operating within more widespread online communities. And so in some ways, the movement has become more decentralized. And, you know, we've seen lone actor terrorists go out and commit mass acts of violence over the last several years. And that is very much a product of this movement. You know, the shooter in El Paso and Poway and Pittsburgh, they are all connected to the same movement that produces Atomwaffen and the base.
- [36:25]
Michelle Shepherd
There's really a fine line between. Between sowing fear and appreciating a threat. The investigation into the September 11 attacks resulted in what's known as the 911 Commission Report. It read like a tragic novel and even became a bestseller. There's a sentence from it that always stuck with me. The most important failure was one of imagination. We couldn't fathom that type of destruction, even though the warnings were all there. Sometimes it's a singular story, large or small, that can set the course of your reporting career. For Ryan, it's very likely the Matthews case. His investigation into Matthews may be done, but he's just starting to dig into the wider movement and watching where this heads.
- [37:19]
Ryan Thorpe
You know, I would like to think that I wasn't naive before. I knew about like the far right movement. I knew it existed. I knew that there was hateful people out there. I perhaps didn't understand, like, the depths of hatred that, you know, when I was in this, on the interior of this organization and like documenting their internal discussions, just like the sheer level of of hatred was disturbing. And it's one thing to know it exists and it's another thing to see it up close.
- [38:00]
Michelle Shepherd
White Hot Hate was written and produced by Ashley Mack and me, Michelle Shepherd. Our associate producer is Kim Kasher with production support from Sarah Melton. Additional reporting by Ryan Thorpe. Mixing and sound design by Danelle Cloutier and Julia Whitman with technical assistance from Laura and Tonelli. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Fact checking by Emily Mattu and Zachary Kamel. Legal advice from Sean Moorman. Original music by quiet type. Additional material for this episode from ABC and CBS News. Special thanks to the Winnipeg Free Press for CBC Podcasts. Our senior producer is Chris Oak and our executive producer is Arif Nohrani and Leslie Merklinger is senior director of CBC Podcasts. We'd also like to thank Shane Mincken and Scott Gibbons, Paul Salmon, Sean Powers, Tanya Springer, Arande Williams, Tim Lorimer, Keith Hart, Evan Agard, Evan Kelly, Caroline Barghout, Nazimbash, Yvonne Angelovsky, Marie Brewster, Roberto Rasha, Elizabeth Simons and the Canadian Anti Hate Network, David Hoffman, Joshua Fisher Birch and the CBC Reference Library. And in remembrance of my dad, Ron Sheppard, who was a big supporter of a well constructed sentiment sentence and investigative journalism. If you enjoyed this series and want to help new listeners discover the show, please take some time to give us a rating and review wherever you listen. You can also find us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram bcpodcasts. Thanks for listening.
- [40:13]
David Cochran
For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.