White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse – Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider
Release Date: March 25, 2025
Introduction to Agent Scott Payne’s Mission
In the gripping premiere of Season 2 of White Hot Hate, host Michelle Shepherd introduces listeners to FBI Special Agent Scott Payne, an undercover operative whose 28-year-long career has seen him infiltrate some of the most dangerous extremist groups in America. This episode, titled "The Insider," delves deep into Scott’s journey within white supremacist circles, providing a raw and unfiltered look at life undercover.
Infiltrating "The Base"
Scott Payne’s mission begins in the summer of 2019 when he targets "the Base," a notorious white supremacist group intent on inciting a race war. Michelle Shepherd sets the stage by describing Scott's appearance and interests, making his undercover persona relatable yet deceptive.
Michelle Shepherd [00:53]: "Let me introduce you to Scott. He's 6 foot 4, 260, likes cowboy boots and Jack Daniels."
Scott explains his initial contact with the group:
Scott Payne (Daniel Thibault) [00:52]: "We reached out to me and said, hey, we'd like to have you in the base. And I said, awesome, I'd love to be here."
His first meeting in Rome, Georgia, is meticulously detailed, highlighting the group’s suspicion and the tension of the encounter.
Scott Payne [01:17]: "So I'm driving, I keep looping on these streets, and I see the Roman wolf statue. I take a picture of it and I send it to TMB."
Encounter with Patrick Matthews
A pivotal moment in Scott’s infiltration occurs when he meets Patrick Matthews, a former Canadian military reservist with deep ties to the neo-Nazi network. This interaction is fraught with tension, especially as Matthews is already the subject of a broader manhunt.
Scott Payne [13:45]: "He's Patrick Matthews using the brand new call sign Punished Snake. Like, it was an added disguise while on the lam."
The stakes heighten when Scott realizes Matthews is the target of a significant FBI manhunt, leading to an intricate web of trust and deception.
Scott Payne [14:36]: "He knew it was a nice flag... He knows exactly what a swastika is. He knows exactly."
Life Undercover with Extremists
Scott’s undercover life immerses him deeply within the group's activities, from training camps to casual gatherings. The emotional and psychological toll of maintaining his cover is evident as he grapples with forming genuine relationships while constantly lying.
Scott Payne [22:35]: "In law enforcement, I have really, really seen a parent's love... The parent will still say, that's not my kid. I still love my kid."
This section underscores the personal sacrifices and moral dilemmas faced by undercover agents.
The Takedown and Arrests
After five months of meticulous surveillance and gathering incriminating evidence, Scott’s efforts culminate in the arrest of Patrick Matthews and six other group members. Michelle Shepherd narrates the dramatic takedown, emphasizing the significance of the operation.
Michelle Shepherd [16:28]: "Eventually, those long hours, they pay off. Five months after Scott infiltrates the base, Matthews is arrested along with six other members of the group in a dramatic takedown that makes headlines around the world."
Despite the high-profile arrests, the legal proceedings reveal limitations in charging individuals solely for their racist beliefs, leading to charges related to firearms and conspiracy.
Michelle Shepherd [16:50]: "They were indicted for offenses ranging from possessing and transporting firearms and conspiracy to murder."
Aftermath and Scott’s Decision to Reveal
Scott Payne’s career doesn’t end with the takedown. By summer 2021, the cumulative stress of undercover work leads him to retire from the FBI. His decision to share his experiences publicly marks a significant shift, as he collaborates with Michelle Shepherd on a memoir and participates in this podcast series.
Michelle Shepherd [25:16]: "Scott wasn't allowed to tell his story until the day after he retired. So he had reached out."
An interview with Rolling Stone contributor Paul Solotarov further cements Scott’s legacy as a formidable undercover agent.
Paul Solotarov [25:37]: "He has this extraordinary ability to make himself the center of every room he walks into."
Insights into Undercover Work and Extremism
The episode concludes by reflecting on the broader implications of Scott’s work. It provides a rare, insider perspective on how extremist groups operate from within and the personal toll such undercover operations demand.
Michelle Shepherd [29:07]: "Scott's perspective is one we rarely hear. Journalists report, Academics analyze and opine, lawyers debate the law."
Scott’s firsthand accounts reveal the complexities of infiltrating hate groups, the thin line between duty and personal struggle, and the urgent need to understand and dismantle extremist networks.
Notable Quotes with Timestamps
- Scott Payne [02:31]: "It is hot out, suffocating hot. August Georgian heat with a darkening sky that looks pretty ominous."
- Tom Lane [19:15]: "Anytime there's anything to do with race... they're gonna get in on it."
- Scott Payne [22:28]: "To think that your kid's going through a phase to find out what's what. Okay, how long do you want the phase to last?"
Conclusion
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse – The Insider offers an unparalleled glimpse into the shadowy world of undercover operations against white supremacist groups. Through Scott Payne’s experiences, listeners gain a profound understanding of the challenges and dangers faced by those who risk everything to combat domestic extremism from within. This episode sets the tone for a season filled with tension, bravery, and the relentless pursuit of justice.
Produced By:
- Writer & Producer: Michelle Shepherd
- Senior Producer: Ashley Mack
- Producer: Eunice Kim
- Mixing & Sound Design: Evan Kelly
- Digital Producer: Emily Connell
- Intern: Rachel Degasperos
Special Thanks To: Andrew Friesen, Lara Antonelli, the CBC Reference Library, Ryan Thorpe, the Winnipeg Free Press, Rolling Stone, Paul Solotarov, Sean Powers, Oralation Studios, Evolvement Music, Chris Oak, Cecil Fernandez, Tanya Springer, and Arif Nurture.
Produced alongside the book "Code Name: Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis," co-written by Scott Payne and Michelle Shepherd.