Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider

Summary

White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse – Season 2, Episode 1: The Insider

Release Date: March 25, 2025

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Introduction to Agent Scott Payne’s Mission

In the gripping premiere of Season 2 of White Hot Hate, host Michelle Shepherd introduces listeners to FBI Special Agent Scott Payne, an undercover operative whose 28-year-long career has seen him infiltrate some of the most dangerous extremist groups in America. This episode, titled "The Insider," delves deep into Scott’s journey within white supremacist circles, providing a raw and unfiltered look at life undercover.

Infiltrating "The Base"

Scott Payne’s mission begins in the summer of 2019 when he targets "the Base," a notorious white supremacist group intent on inciting a race war. Michelle Shepherd sets the stage by describing Scott's appearance and interests, making his undercover persona relatable yet deceptive.

Michelle Shepherd [00:53]: "Let me introduce you to Scott. He's 6 foot 4, 260, likes cowboy boots and Jack Daniels."

Scott explains his initial contact with the group:

Scott Payne (Daniel Thibault) [00:52]: "We reached out to me and said, hey, we'd like to have you in the base. And I said, awesome, I'd love to be here."

His first meeting in Rome, Georgia, is meticulously detailed, highlighting the group’s suspicion and the tension of the encounter.

Scott Payne [01:17]: "So I'm driving, I keep looping on these streets, and I see the Roman wolf statue. I take a picture of it and I send it to TMB."

Encounter with Patrick Matthews

A pivotal moment in Scott’s infiltration occurs when he meets Patrick Matthews, a former Canadian military reservist with deep ties to the neo-Nazi network. This interaction is fraught with tension, especially as Matthews is already the subject of a broader manhunt.

Scott Payne [13:45]: "He's Patrick Matthews using the brand new call sign Punished Snake. Like, it was an added disguise while on the lam."

The stakes heighten when Scott realizes Matthews is the target of a significant FBI manhunt, leading to an intricate web of trust and deception.

Scott Payne [14:36]: "He knew it was a nice flag... He knows exactly what a swastika is. He knows exactly."

Life Undercover with Extremists

Scott’s undercover life immerses him deeply within the group's activities, from training camps to casual gatherings. The emotional and psychological toll of maintaining his cover is evident as he grapples with forming genuine relationships while constantly lying.

Scott Payne [22:35]: "In law enforcement, I have really, really seen a parent's love... The parent will still say, that's not my kid. I still love my kid."

This section underscores the personal sacrifices and moral dilemmas faced by undercover agents.

The Takedown and Arrests

After five months of meticulous surveillance and gathering incriminating evidence, Scott’s efforts culminate in the arrest of Patrick Matthews and six other group members. Michelle Shepherd narrates the dramatic takedown, emphasizing the significance of the operation.

Michelle Shepherd [16:28]: "Eventually, those long hours, they pay off. Five months after Scott infiltrates the base, Matthews is arrested along with six other members of the group in a dramatic takedown that makes headlines around the world."

Despite the high-profile arrests, the legal proceedings reveal limitations in charging individuals solely for their racist beliefs, leading to charges related to firearms and conspiracy.

Michelle Shepherd [16:50]: "They were indicted for offenses ranging from possessing and transporting firearms and conspiracy to murder."

Aftermath and Scott’s Decision to Reveal

Scott Payne’s career doesn’t end with the takedown. By summer 2021, the cumulative stress of undercover work leads him to retire from the FBI. His decision to share his experiences publicly marks a significant shift, as he collaborates with Michelle Shepherd on a memoir and participates in this podcast series.

Michelle Shepherd [25:16]: "Scott wasn't allowed to tell his story until the day after he retired. So he had reached out."

An interview with Rolling Stone contributor Paul Solotarov further cements Scott’s legacy as a formidable undercover agent.

Paul Solotarov [25:37]: "He has this extraordinary ability to make himself the center of every room he walks into."

Insights into Undercover Work and Extremism

The episode concludes by reflecting on the broader implications of Scott’s work. It provides a rare, insider perspective on how extremist groups operate from within and the personal toll such undercover operations demand.

Michelle Shepherd [29:07]: "Scott's perspective is one we rarely hear. Journalists report, Academics analyze and opine, lawyers debate the law."

Scott’s firsthand accounts reveal the complexities of infiltrating hate groups, the thin line between duty and personal struggle, and the urgent need to understand and dismantle extremist networks.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Scott Payne [02:31]: "It is hot out, suffocating hot. August Georgian heat with a darkening sky that looks pretty ominous."
• Tom Lane [19:15]: "Anytime there's anything to do with race... they're gonna get in on it."
• Scott Payne [22:28]: "To think that your kid's going through a phase to find out what's what. Okay, how long do you want the phase to last?"

Conclusion

White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse – The Insider offers an unparalleled glimpse into the shadowy world of undercover operations against white supremacist groups. Through Scott Payne’s experiences, listeners gain a profound understanding of the challenges and dangers faced by those who risk everything to combat domestic extremism from within. This episode sets the tone for a season filled with tension, bravery, and the relentless pursuit of justice.

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Produced By:

• Writer & Producer: Michelle Shepherd
• Senior Producer: Ashley Mack
• Producer: Eunice Kim
• Mixing & Sound Design: Evan Kelly
• Digital Producer: Emily Connell
• Intern: Rachel Degasperos

Special Thanks To: Andrew Friesen, Lara Antonelli, the CBC Reference Library, Ryan Thorpe, the Winnipeg Free Press, Rolling Stone, Paul Solotarov, Sean Powers, Oralation Studios, Evolvement Music, Chris Oak, Cecil Fernandez, Tanya Springer, and Arif Nurture.

Produced alongside the book "Code Name: Pale Horse: How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis," co-written by Scott Payne and Michelle Shepherd.

Transcript

[Kathryn Cullen]

So, Canada, we've got to choose a new prime minister, and it's a pretty crucial time. Even people who don't normally follow politics are trying to figure out what the heck is going on. I'm Kathryn Cullen, host of the House, and I started a new weekly election show with two friends and fellow political nerds.

[Daniel Thibault]

Hello, I'm Daniel Thibault, bringing you the Quebec point de vu.

[Jason Markusoff]

I'm Jason Markusoff in Calgary, bringing the takes and stakes from the West.

[Kathryn Cullen]

Together, we are House Party, a weekly elections podcast for everyone. We tackle one big burning question every Wednesday.

[Jason Markusoff]

Find us in the House's feed wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michelle Shepherd]

This is a CBC podcast. The following episode contains strong language and descriptions of violence. Please take care when listening.

[Daniel Thibault]

Okay, so let me start with the base.

[Michelle Shepherd]

All right.

[Daniel Thibault]

Ah, what a great group of guys.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Okay, so how did you. Let me introduce you to Scott. He's 6 foot 4, 260, likes cowboy boots and Jack Daniels. And in the summer of 2019, he wanted to join a group of white supremacists. They called themselves the base. And Scott had already passed a crucial.

[Daniel Thibault]

Phone interview that Saturday. They reached out to me and said, hey, we'd like to have you in the base. And I said, awesome, I'd love to be here. So he says, you're gonna be contacted by your closest cell leader. And it turned out that the closest cell leader was a guy going by the name of the militant Buddhist tmb. And he was in Rome, Georgia. Now we're not emailing, now we're not texting. Now it's not a voice phone call. Now I'm actually gonna meet somebody. So I drive. You know, it might be a four hour drive down to Rome, Georgia, and it's kind of a rural area. It's a small town. I was instructed to pull into town. He even told me what parking lot to park in. In downtown Rome, there is a statue of a Roman wolf, oddly enough. And he said, when you get there, take a picture of that Roman wolf and send it to me. So I'm driving, I keep looping on these streets, and I see the Roman wolf statue. I take a picture of it and I send it to tmb. And I end up parking on a pretty steep hill.

[Michelle Shepherd]

It is hot out, suffocating hot. August Georgian heat with a darkening sky that looks pretty ominous. Scott stands by his truck under a tangle of power lines and he spots two figures coming up the hill.

[Daniel Thibault]

And I see a guy who's probably about 6, 2, about 21 years old, probably about 220 pounds. I mean, he's not a small guy. A little frumpy maybe. Not like super muscular. Pretty thick glasses on, mopish hair pushed over to the side. I don't remember him being dressed like anything crazy. But the guy walking with him, who I learn is Pestilence, he's wearing a tank top of some black metal band. He has on black BDU pants that are bloused into his 8 inch combat boots, tactical boots. And his head is shaved on the sides, but his hair is long, like it's. I mean, a ponytail probably down the middle of his back, right? So no harm, no foul. I get out, hey, you know, so I don't even know if we shook hands, and TMB says, I need you to put your phone in airplane mode. And I'm like, okay. And I'm expecting that, right? He pulls out this thing that I've never seen. It looks like some kind of Geiger counter. I mean, it's. It's got lights all over it, a triangle card. And. And I'm looking and going, hmm. So he wands me. No big deal. I'm fine. As TMB is walking down towards the back of my truck on the driver's side, that thing he's holding his hand starts making all kinds of racket, and I can see the lights kind of jumping. And I'm like, oh, crap. I'm thinking to myself. He tells me to shut my cell phone off, and I'm like, does this thing pick up a cell signal? And I'm thinking, oh, man, this is not good.

[Michelle Shepherd]

I guess now is a good time to tell you that Scott is an undercover cop. FBI Special Agent Scott Payne. He's not wearing a wire just in case he gets patted down, but there is a GPS tracker on his truck. So when he says not good, he means, holy shit, this is not good.

[Daniel Thibault]

You know, you get kind of the fight or flight, you know. And I'm like, well, it's definitely picking up what's on my truck. And he's not even close yet and is picking it up. I don't realize I'm doing it really, but I'm already setting my right leg back, like almost fighter stance, you know, not like bowing up, but I'm getting ready. And as he's getting toward the back of the truck, Pestilence says, hey, do you think it's the power lines? And TMB says, you know what? I don't know. And he walks over. So he starts walking over the power lines and that thing goes nuts. And he's like, shit, man. Yeah, it is picking up the power lines. So he tells me, hey, I need you follow us. We're gonna go somewhere else. Well, as I get back in my truck, I'm now calling the cover team and I'm saying, hey, you need to shut this tractor off. But while I'm talking, I'm actually like bringing my drink up to my mouth because I don't know if they're looking from their car. I don't know if anybody else is following me. I don't know. I'm holding the phone down in my lap and I'm talking. Trying to not be so obvious.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott and his FBI cover team don't know a lot about these guys in this group, but they do know they're probably armed and definitely paranoid about their secrecy. So that tracker.

[Daniel Thibault]

And what the team tells me is we're not sure if we shut it off remotely if we can get it back on. And I said, well, you need to shut it off or it's going to be probably the quickest undercover meet I've ever had. So I'm following him, and he pulls into this parking lot of what appears to be an abandoned. Or at least nobody's working while we're there. Concrete plant. I just kind of giggle and I'm like, yeah, empty concrete plant. I mean, in what movies has nobody died at the empty concrete plant? All that, like half the action movies I've seen.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott gets out of the truck and stands arms out so TMB can use his whatever, wand thing to search him again. And it starts to rain like the heavens open up in a southern monsoon. Perfect pathetic fallacy for this Hollywood drama. Scott is trying to look nonchalant, but his heart is beating louder than the rain. If he needs backup, he knows the team doesn't have eyes on him. TMB moves towards the truck.

[Daniel Thibault]

Like they said, they shut it off, but what if remotely, it didn't shut off, Right? There's all these what ifs going through your mind. And he goes past the truck. Truck passed the test. We get back in. And now I follow him in Pestilence. I hung out, got to know him a little bit, had a couple of drinks, and after passing the face to face meet, I am now gifted with a black balaclava which was the signature for the base members. And I'm afforded a patch with the three runes on them, which was the base symbol. So I go back that night to my hotel room and I meet with one of the case agents who flew down to Georgia because this case is bigger than Georgia. It's all over the nation and the world. And he took a picture of me. I put my balaclava on and I put the patch right in my mouth. And there's that picture of me, like in a red Harley Davidson shirt with two thumbs up going, I'm in.

[Michelle Shepherd]

I'm Michelle shepherd from cbc. This is White Hot Hate, Season two, Agent Pale Horse, Episode one the Insider. If you listened to the first season of White Hot Hate, maybe this is all sounding a little familiar. And you're right. We began that season with another infiltrator voice memo.

[Ryan Thorpe]

Gonna try and get up everything I can remember off the top of my head because the meeting just ended and I didn't record it. His name's Patrick. He's about 5, 10, grew up in the country, used to live in Winnipeg.

[Michelle Shepherd]

That's Ryan Thorpe, who was a reporter with the Winnipeg Free Press newspaper in 2019. Someone in his city had been putting up flyers that read, save your race, join the base. So he tried to find out more. He filled out the online forms, passed a vetting call with the group's leader, and eventually met up with the base's local recruiter in a park.

[Daniel Thibault]

Fuck.

[Ryan Thorpe]

We spoke for like an hour and a half.

[Michelle Shepherd]

There was so much later. While running home, Ryan regurgitated everything they talked about recording onto his phone.

[Ryan Thorpe]

He ranted with homophobic and racist language. He's anti Semitic. He talked about conducting a race war. He talked about derailing a train that we were nearby, sabotaging train tracks. He is a violent extremist.

[Daniel Thibault]

Hold on.

[Michelle Shepherd]

That violent extremist was Patrick Matthews. He was a reservist with the Canadian Armed Forces, a combat engineer who was trained in the use of explosives. Two weeks after that meeting in the park, Ryan and his editors decided to out Matthews in front page reports. The story blew up and soon after, Matthews disappeared.

[Patrick Matthews]

American sheriffs along Manitoba's border say they're on the lookout for a beauser man with alleged ties to a neo Nazi group. Former military reservist Patrick Matthews has been missing for more than a week. RCMP are investigating him.

[Michelle Shepherd]

He packed up his home in small town Manitoba, gave away his four beloved cats and fled. All police could find was his red pickup truck dumped near the US border. Matthews was a hot topic among both the Canadian and American feds.

[Daniel Thibault]

We've got to find this guy. Who has now been outed as Patrick Matthews because Ryan Thorpe, the journalist, infiltrated him. Where's this guy? What is he doing?

[Michelle Shepherd]

But Matthews wasn't Scott's main concern at the time. After he'd successfully made it into the base, he'd been busy hanging out with the Georgia crew, building a case.

[Daniel Thibault]

We're just trying to infiltrate, ingratiate, try to find out if they're actually planning to do something really bad or not. All I know is I'm going down to do another training. I don't know who's always going to be there.

[Michelle Shepherd]

He attends a training camp at TMB's. TMB is the online moniker for the guy who vetted Scott. He still lives at home with his dad on a sprawling rural property outside Rome, Georgia. And that's where Scott, whose alias was Pale Horse, and the other base members shoot guns, share tips on how to survive in the woods and prepare for the race war they plan to spark.

[Daniel Thibault]

I pull up to the barn, and I'm looking at the cars, and I'm going, okay, that's Helter Skelter's car. That's pestilence car. That's TMB's dad's truck. Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, there's an extra body. There's not enough cars for it. But I don't have my glasses on. Great part of aging. So I'm like, huh? And I go walking up, and I see this, I don't know, mid late 20s guy, reddish hair, but it's all bushy and a bushy beard. I walk up and I'm thinking, maybe it's a new member. I'll find out who it is, what's going on. And then he starts to speak, and I'm like, that sounds Canadian. Because, you know, I mean, I grew up in the 80s, right? That's a big time. Strange Brew is one of my favorite movies. So, you know, and I love SCTV as well, so. But he immediately pretty much tells me. He's like, how you doing? I'm Punished Snake. You may or may not have heard about me.

[Michelle Shepherd]

It was Patrick Matthews using the brand new call sign Punished Snake. Like, it was an added disguise while on the lam.

[Daniel Thibault]

And I'm like, oh, my goodness, he's here. He's here in Georgia. But, you know, being an undercover, I go, holy shit, man. Welcome to the United States, brother. And I hug him.

[Michelle Shepherd]

There's this huge manhunt on for him. Everybody's talking about it in the FBI, and all of a sudden, you roll up and you're like, holy shit, That's. That's him. Yeah, that's Matthews. Like, what did you feel at that moment?

[Daniel Thibault]

It had even been reported in Congress, they had congressional meetings where they're going green. We now know that there is a violent white supremacist from Canada who's somewhere in the United States. You know, and I walk up and I go, oh, my gosh, what are the odds?

[Michelle Shepherd]

You know, just Matthew's luck. He escaped the clutches of Canadian authorities only to jump right into the arms of the FBI.

[Daniel Thibault]

As some people say, it's better to be lucky than good sometimes, right? And of course, as soon as I could, I let the case team know, and they're like, what? And I'm like, yeah, man, he's here. It's awesome. And now he's staying here. So now for the next. Whatever, four months, every time I go to training in Georgia, I'm hanging out with Pat.

[Monica Lewinsky]

At 24, I lost my narrative, or rather, it was stolen from me. And the Monica Lewinsky that my friends and family knew was usurped by false narratives, callous jokes, and politics. I would define reclaiming as to take back what was yours. Something you possess is lost or stolen, and ultimately you triumph in finding it again. Follow Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Reclaiming early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

[Daniel Thibault]

Well, should be out.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott spends months undercover as Pale Horse with Patrick Matthews and the Georgia Cell, training, hiking, and listening as they discuss their plans. And he's recording everything.

[Daniel Thibault]

All right. QCE 8667, it is August 3rd. It's approximately 9:24am Eastern Time Saturday.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Eventually, those long hours, they pay off. Five months after Scott infiltrates the base, Matthews is arrested along with six other members of the group in a dramatic takedown that makes headlines around the world.

[Patrick Matthews]

And tonight, the FBI crackdown continues on white supremacist groups ahead of a pro gun rally next Monday in Richmond, Virginia.

[Michelle Shepherd]

The men weren't charged for being racist. That's not illegal. Neither were they charged for domestic terrorism, which isn't a federal offense. But they were indicted for offenses ranging from possessing and transporting firearms and conspiracy to murder.

[Patrick Matthews]

Well, today, three suspected members of a neo Nazi group were arrested in Georgia, charged with targeting left wing activists.

[Michelle Shepherd]

The case against them was so strong, the evidence so damning, everyone pleaded out. And they were handed sentences ranging from six years to as long as 20. When we were researching these cases for the last season, we kept coming across evidence provided by the uce. That stands for the FBI Undercover Employee. That UCE came up so often we started to imagine that we knew him. He had recorded hours of conversations between Matthews and his co defendants as they talked about shooting cops and massacring black people. When TMB and another base member took a road trip to case the house where their targets lived, the UCE was behind the wheel. And then we heard his voice on the secretly recorded tape when it was presented in court. Low, gravelly and southern.

[Daniel Thibault]

So explain to me because I've been watching, you know, your posts and stuff and I know you guys have been gearing up for this thing and I wanted to talk and see what the.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Hell'S going on, but he was an FBI undercover. There's a reason we couldn't put a name or a face to the voice.

[Tom Lane]

I'll call him Scott because that's what he said his name was, but I'm sure that's not his name.

[Michelle Shepherd]

The most of what we knew then about the undercover agent actually came from a man named Tom Lane.

[Tom Lane]

He was probably 20 plus years older than the rest of them, 6'two 6'three 240, you know, big man, tattoos all over his arms. You know, they all kind of looked up to him. I think.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Tom was the father of tmb, real name Luke Austin Lane. Luke had established the base's so called small man cell in Georgia co and most of their training took place at his dad's hundred acre property, which is where I reached Tom for an interview a few months after his 22 year old son had been arrested.

[Tom Lane]

You know, when I first saw him, I was thinking, this guy's either a pedophile or he's, he's FBI. I asked him, I said, scott, you FBI, ain't you? He said, no, no man, I don't remember exactly what he said, but he denied it. And I told Luke he was FBI. And Luke said, no, we vetted him, we vetted him. I don't know how they went about their vetting, but it wasn't good, evidently.

[Michelle Shepherd]

But why would you think he would be FBI? I mean, why would you think that there would be an FBI guy hanging around?

[Tom Lane]

Why did I think there would be FBI guy hanging around? Well, anytime there's anything to do with race, which I knew whatever Luke was into was probably racial, which I don't agree with that. But they got their ears out everywhere. The ad, anything that's got a hint of racism, they're gonna get in on it. You know, they think that's the worst thing in the world nowadays.

[Michelle Shepherd]

I knew from court documents that hint of racism was Nazi propaganda. And in particular, a flag hanging on Luke's bedroom wall.

[Tom Lane]

Yeah, I mean, I saw a flag in there, but, you know, kids that age, they're gonna kind of dabble in things, and, you know, they're trying. Still trying to find out who they want to be. Luke's been all over the place. One time he wanted to go move to Russia, and then next thing you know, he's wanting to move to Ukraine and fight the Russians. And he didn't know what he wanted to do. He was just a young boy, you know, trying to find his way. And, you know, I figured he'd moved something else.

[Michelle Shepherd]

What was the actual flag? Was it something identifiable?

[Tom Lane]

I think it was a. A Nazi flag. I think it was a swastika. I. I think. I don't remember what it was. Tell your truth. It was a big red flag.

[Michelle Shepherd]

So when you saw it, you just. You didn't recognize it as that necessarily, or you thought, okay, he's going through a Nazi phase.

[Tom Lane]

Well, yeah, Yeah. I just figured he was going through a little phase.

[Daniel Thibault]

Remember when I told you, well, when we first met, I said I'd heard that podcast, and I was cussing at the computer while it was going on. I'm like, that dude is lying. Okay?

[Michelle Shepherd]

That's the crazy thing. All the time we were reporting and wondering about this Scott, he was listening, wanting to talk to us.

[Daniel Thibault]

Yeah. So he knew it was a nice flag. I mean, I said, I've sat on the porch with that guy and drank. I drank his alcohol, he drank mine. He's listened to Pestilence. My educated opinion, he's saying that. Cause he's on a call, and he didn't want to tie himself to anything nefarious. He knows exactly what a swastika is. He knows exactly. Now, to think that your kid's going through a phase to find out what's what. Okay, how long do you want the phase to last? Two years, four years, Six years? What's a phase?

[Michelle Shepherd]

But, you know, Tom Lane making excuses for his son didn't really surprise Scott.

[Daniel Thibault]

In law enforcement, I have really, really seen a parent's love. What I mean by that is, I can show you a video of your kid doing crime on camera. Their voice, them. The parent will still say, that's not my kid. I still love my kid. And that's what parents do.

[Michelle Shepherd]

What Scott says he doesn't have time for are accusations of entrapment, which seemed to be Tom Lane's explanation at the time for why his son was sitting in jail awaiting trial.

[Tom Lane]

I feel like the, you know, the FBI implant kind of led them in that direction. Certainly he didn't do anything to deter it. You know, these. These were young guys, like 19, 20 years old. And I think they pretty much just took advantage of their youth. You know, I don't know that the base wasn't created by the FBI. You know, I don't much trust anything they do.

[Daniel Thibault]

The reason that we got involved is because of the crazy stuff that was being posted. All I know is people that go online, covert for the FBI were talking about this guy tmb. They're like, this guy is, I mean, saying some crazy stuff. That was before me. That was before. That's what put him on the radar.

[Michelle Shepherd]

And the court documents make it clear that Luke Lane was an active recruiter.

[Daniel Thibault]

It ebbs and flows. You might pick up a new member and they do the interview. They pass. They get the face to face vetting, and then they're down in Georgia training with us. They're spewing hate and pro Hitler and all this stuff. And then they get off on these tangents of giant agarthins living in middle earth with Hitler. And they're coming back one day, and I'm just like, I need a drink. Maybe I am too old to do this.

[Michelle Shepherd]

In the end, that's exactly what he decided. Although he was only 50, undercover work takes a toll. So Scott turned in the badge in the summer of 2021. He could have ridden off into retirement on his Harley with his wife on the back, belting out some country tunes and sipping whiskey in obscurity. And I probably would have never known who the UCE was or thought of him again. But then he decided to talk to Rolling Stone.

[Paul Solotarov]

He wasn't allowed to tell his story until the day after he retired. So he had reached out.

[Michelle Shepherd]

That's Paul Solotarov, a staff contributor at Rolling Stone magazine. He wrote a profile on Scott that cast him as the most storied FBI agent since Joe Pistone, AKA Donnie Brasco.

[Paul Solotarov]

I didn't set out to write about Scott. I set out to write about the kids he was chasing.

[Michelle Shepherd]

But once he started talking, it turned into a profile of Scott. How did that happen?

[Paul Solotarov]

He left me no choice. You know, the force of Scott's personality and the force of his Persona. Right. He just has this extraordinary ability to make himself the center of every room he walks into. And I challenge anyone who meet Scott to write about something on the margins. After you've met that guy. Shall I just start?

[Michelle Shepherd]

Paul is an incredibly vivid writer.

[Paul Solotarov]

Go for it he's been lifting all his life and has the setup to prove it. Mailbox quads and meat plow arms that dispose him to sleeveless teaspoon.

[Michelle Shepherd]

In his piece, Scott comes off as a type of superhero who not only took down the base, but in his 28 years in law enforcement, also managed to infiltrate the KKK and biker gangs and put away aspiring killers, opioid dealers, dirty cops and mass shooters.

[Paul Solotarov]

He knows better than anyone that it's later than we think and that each day brings us closer to the next. 911 this one.

[Michelle Shepherd]

After reading that article and talking to Paul, I had one thought. Bonus episode. Paul put us in touch for an interview, but before I knew it, I was talking to Scott every week. Hello.

[Daniel Thibault]

What's happening?

[Michelle Shepherd]

Not much. Not much. I'm sitting outside today.

[Daniel Thibault]

I see that.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Yeah. How are you?

[Daniel Thibault]

Good, man. I've been doing a lot of outside stuff myself with the daddy doggy daycare and watering plants and shit and, you know.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Long story short, I agreed to write his memoir with him and our podcast bonus episode turned into this series. I gotta confess, it's weird as a journalist being on the inside with an insider. I usually write about cops, not with them. I'm an agnostic, feminist, lefty Canadian who spent most of her career holding authority to account. He's a devout Christian Republican American from the south who bleeds blue. We definitely have our clashes and agree to disagree on many subjects. But where we come together is trying to understand what drives groups like the base. There are very few people who have spent so many years seeing that lack of respect for human life up close, witnessing that hate.

[Daniel Thibault]

The time for words has ended. The time for podcasts has ended. Derail some fucking trains, kill some people and poison some water supplies. You know, you can think of them.

[Michelle Shepherd]

As like Tim McVeigh's children or Tim McVeigh's little cousins. At least 49 people have been killed in two mosques in Christchurch. In Charleston, South Carolina, nine people were killed in a shooting at a historic African American church.

[Jason Markusoff]

The Associated Press is reporting that at least 10 people were killed in a shooting at a supermarket in Buffalo, New York.

[Paul Solotarov]

Eight people are dead after a gunman opened fire at a shopping mall in Texas.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott's perspective is one we rarely hear. Journalists report, Academics analyze and opine, lawyers debate the law.

[Daniel Thibault]

You get more than just a 30,000 foot view. I mean, you're right there. You're not guessing.

[Michelle Shepherd]

But what does it look like from the inside when far right extremists believe they're among a fellow believer.

[Daniel Thibault]

This is what they said. This is what they talked about. We had a few drinks and they're saying, hey, what would really be cool is if we start killing a bunch of people and you're going, oh, okay, all right, well, okay, that's different.

[Michelle Shepherd]

When you're spending your days and nights with violent bikers for a year and a half and some of them become your friends, or pretending to sling hillbilly heroin with the pill mills of the deep south, what does that do to you as a person? To always be living a lie?

[Daniel Thibault]

You get a up close and personal perspective.

[Michelle Shepherd]

That's coming up on Agent Palehorse.

[Daniel Thibault]

I was like, scott will never fit in there. He is just country.

[Tom Lane]

It's all get out.

[Monica Lewinsky]

There was a mystique about him because.

[Daniel Thibault]

He wasn't around him all the time. I can't just walk over there into a sea of testosterone and leather and say, hey, you guys ride. We've never killed anyone yet, but we've had people medevaced out by a helicopter.

[Michelle Shepherd]

I'm like, just get out of my house.

[Daniel Thibault]

And he looked at me, said, so I just vouch for you, so don't fuck this up.

[Michelle Shepherd]

This series was written and produced by me, Michelle shepherd, senior producer Ashley Mack and producer Eunice Kim. Mixing and sound design by Evan Kelly. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Our intern was Rachel degasperos. Special thanks to Andrew Friesen, Lara Antonelli, the CBC Reference Library, Ryan Thorpe, the Winnipeg Free Press, Rolling Stone, and Paul Soloteroff, Sean Powers, Oralation Studios and Evolvement Music. Chris Oak and Cecil Fernandez are our executive producers. Tanya Springer is the senior manager and Arif Nurture is the director of CBC Podcasts. This series was produced alongside a book I wrote with Scott Pale, How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. You can catch up with season one of White Hot Hate wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're enjoying this series and want to help new listeners discover the show, please take some time to give us a rating and review on whichever is your chosen app. It really helps. For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.