← White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse
Season 2, Episode 2: You Got Anything for Rednecks?
00:31:43
<p>How does a young, self-proclaimed redneck end up becoming one of the most storied undercover agents of our time? We trace Agent Payne’s path from a satan-worshiping southern high school student, all the way to becoming a “Hillbilly Donnie Brasco.” </p>
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- [00:00]
David Cochran
How are Canadians bracing for a full on trade war without US buy in? Can Canada really help Ukraine? And is Canadian patriotism messing with conservative strategy? We explore questions like these on power and politics, CBC's only political daily. I'm David Cochran. I speak to the key players in the political stories everyone is talking about. You'll hear from those who've got the power, those who want it, and those affected most by it. You can find power and politics wherever you get your podcasts, including YouTube. This is a CBC podcast.
- [00:41]
Scott Payne
Was this barn your retirement project?
- [00:44]
David Cochran
Kinda, yeah. I'll tell you how it all started. It all started so I could have a place to play music without bothering everybody because I can't turn it up in the house and I don't like playing choreographers. What I. It don't have to be loud, but I got to hear it, you know, got to feel it a little bit. Check one, two. All right, so that's it. All right. Back gu. Let's see.
- [01:17]
Scott Payne
We're in Knoxville, a city in the foothills of the Smoky Mountains in eastern Tennessee. It's early June and inching towards that temperature where moving around outside feels like a challenge. It's especially hot inside the barn that Scott Payne built. And calling it a barn doesn't do it justice. It's a man cave, really. Or as Scott calls it, the barndominium.
- [01:43]
David Cochran
Yeah. So Barn Dominium, it's 30 by 24 or 26 and it's. I think it's 18 foot walls and the open ceiling. We got a little loft up top that's about 10 foot deep. But it's my office. It's a bar, it's a place to.
- [02:03]
Scott Payne
Hang out in one corner, drenched in sun, there's a high stool and amps for when he's playing his guitars. When he isn't, he hangs them up like championship pennants next to an American flag the size of a bedsheet. At the back is a shelving unit that takes up almost the whole wall. It's adorned with memorabilia from his undercover cases. Rows of trophies and plaques, medals, frame certificates and photos.
- [02:31]
David Cochran
This is kind of what started the hooray for me wall, I guess. Of course, the base case, that's the balaclava, that's what you get. And you get the patch when you get into the base. Of course, that's Georgia, the cell I was in. So I got all my little pins here. White Pride Worldwide. There's the. There's your lightning bolts. The SS kkk. More White Pride. That is the original Aryan Nation group. The clan and stuff like that.
- [03:05]
Scott Payne
There's a whole shelf devoted to the clan. There's even a copy of the official KKK handbook with a chapter called clanversations.
- [03:15]
David Cochran
But, man, I had to study this. And we had clan craft class every Wednesday night. This is the mystic insignia of the Klansmen. This goes. I mean, this goes back. There's a lot of history. I mean, a lot of history. And if you look at the Seal, it's actually 4Ks. The original still had 4Ks, but, yeah, I mean, they were quizzy.
- [03:34]
Scott Payne
When he retired and gave that interview to Rolling Stone magazine, he started to get known as a type of hillbilly Donnie Brasco. And he didn't mind at all. Scott says the number one rule of being a good undercover is to be yourself or at the very least, know who you are, where you came from, and how to fit in. So who is Scott Payne? Where did he come from, and how does he fit in? I'm Michelle shepherd, and from cbc, this is Agent Palehorse. Episode two. You got anything for rednecks?
- [04:17]
David Cochran
I grew up in a Christian family, Christian home. I had to work for what I got. I mean, my parents wouldn't just give me stuff, but I was an only child, which probably explains a lot, some people say.
- [04:31]
Scott Payne
What do those people say?
- [04:35]
David Cochran
I don't know. You never had to share nothing. I don't know.
- [04:39]
Scott Payne
Scott was born and raised in Greenville, South Carolina, home of Shoeless Joe Jackson. Beautiful parks and southern charm.
- [04:48]
David Cochran
My mom was the brains, right? She had a college. I think she just had an associates at that point. But she was like a paralegal and all kinds of stuff. She did all the books. My dad had developed his own landscaping company, and even though he dropped out in the 10th grade, very street smart, hard worker and great morals and values wise on that spectrum. And he, at that time in South Carolina, had the third largest landscaping company. I remember when it was at his prime, we had a retail store, and he probably had like two or three crews out working. And then the older I got, the more I had to do. Some people think, oh, you're spoiled because it's your dad's company. Listen, he would leave, and I'm out there on a construction site with a bunch of grown men pouring whiskey in their coffee in the morning and smoking filterless cigarettes. I figured at a very early age, I had to outwork them so that way there wouldn't be any oh, you're daddy's little boy kind of thing out here. And I would. They'd be taking A cigarette break. And I'm like, come on, that's enough. Let's go, let's work.
- [05:54]
Scott Payne
It was the 80s, you know, when movies like the Breakfast Club came out and high schools tended to have well defined social groups.
- [06:02]
David Cochran
I could flow around. I mean, I was. I've always been a people person.
- [06:06]
Scott Payne
What was it like? Like, did you hang out with the jocks? Did you have a certain clique?
- [06:10]
David Cochran
That's the Canadian. Huh? Cleek? Is that how you guys say it up there?
- [06:15]
Scott Payne
You don't say cleek.
- [06:16]
David Cochran
It's a clique here. Yeah, yeah, but that's fine. That's cool. Clique. I'll probably say it that way from now on. Actually, I could hang out with anybody. We had a smoking area in high school. I could go down there and hang out. I mean, I wasn't like a smoker smoker, but my pack might last me a week and a half, you know, But I could go in there and hang out. The stoners weed. I could hang out with those people. I was a jock. Weightlifting, playing ball. And I was a musician and a singer. So kind of jack of all trades, master of none. At one point I even made it in the Beta Club because I had good grades.
- [06:53]
Scott Payne
The Beta Club is for high academic achievers. Its motto is Developing the leaders of Tomorrow. But the stereotype of what a Beta Club kid looks like wasn't exactly Scott.
- [07:07]
David Cochran
I had the traditional 80s mullet, but not the shaved on the side, shaved on the top, you know, party in the back mullet, but just full hair, you know, like some Farrah Fawcett bangs. I showed you a picture. I've seen the pictures.
- [07:21]
Scott Payne
I know you like that look, but it is God awful.
- [07:24]
David Cochran
Ah, come on. I was rocking that. I was rocking it.
- [07:30]
Scott Payne
I grew up in the 80s too. Big eyebrows and shoulder pads. It really wasn't a good looking decade. And Scott, he didn't just have a mullet. He also wore sleeveless shirts, fingerless weightlifting gloves and a spiked leather bracelet. He was a big kid with an attitude to match. But it was back in high school that Scott first got a taste of undercover work. And it all began at the Greenville Eastside High School talent show where Scott and his band played Van Halen's Hot for Teacher.
- [08:03]
David Cochran
The chorus is I got it bad, I got it bad, I got it bad I'm hot for teacher. Well, it turns out as a young man in the 80s who had only really had stage experience at keg parties, grabbing your crotch, saying something like that at the same time was you know, something to do to get the crowd into it. And I really didn't realize, because I was inexperienced, how many times I was grabbing my crotch at the talent show. And this isn't a keg party. This is families coming to see their kids do karate moves or families coming to see their kids play the violin. And here we are as a rock band, and I'm grabbing my crotch in front of everybody. And we probably got to the second verse before they realized what was going on. And they started literally closing the curtain on us and pulling the power.
- [09:00]
Scott Payne
Show's over. The weekend goes by and it's Monday morning. Scott gets called down to Mr. Walker's office.
- [09:08]
David Cochran
Mr. Walker was the vice principal, Lloyd Walker, shorter black guy. He just didn't like me. Maybe I was a smart. I don't know, maybe it was my look, maybe it's who I was hanging with. And he called me into his office and I'm like, man, I. You know, I'm like, I didn't do. I didn't grab myself that much. And they said he actually had a tape on VCR. So he played it for me.
- [09:28]
Scott Payne
Mr. Walker grabs the big clunky VHS recording of Friday night's talent show. And they watch.
- [09:35]
David Cochran
I probably grab my crotch every, I don't know, 30 seconds, who knows? So he starts laying into me and I'm like, whoa. We start talking about different cultures and, you know, like, even Michael Jackson grabs himself on stage, you know, and we started laughing and next thing you know, we're giggling and cutting up. And that's the first time that ever happened. And then probably junior year in high school or senior year, word spread that somebody had basically done malicious damage to Mr. Walker's home. But they had. Not only did they like roll the trees with toilet paper, they spray painted his car. He had like a BMW, I think. Spray painted it, keyed it, spray painted the. There were some bad words on there. Some of them were, I mean, N word, something like that. And he called me into his office and I thought, well, what did I do? You know? And he calls me in and he asked me if I'd be willing to help him try to figure out who did that to his house. So I started working the circles of people. And I think it was in the gym one day, you know, just nonchalant. Hey, man, man, did you hear what happened to Mr. Walker? Yeah, man, that's messed up. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Or hey, man, you know, screw him, you know, he deserves it kind of thing.
- [10:49]
Scott Payne
Scott's working his cliques slash, clicks. Doing what he does best, blending in, chatting, being a people person.
- [10:58]
David Cochran
There was one guy who just anytime the conversation would start, he'd just break eye contact. And then I started doing some research and bouncing it off of Mr. Walker. And it turns out that he did get in trouble with Mr. Walker. And I don't think they ever pinned it on him, but it was him. Because I told Mr. Walker that not being a rat, you know, I'm not a rat or whatever, but, you know, it was the right thing to do. That's the real reason. I mean, you do it because it's the right thing to do. I guess that's probably my first undercover experience that I can think of. You know, I mean, I'm not pretending to be somebody else, but I am kind of covertly going into groups and trying to find out information.
- [11:39]
Scott Payne
But the Mr. Walker investigation didn't set him on the path of becoming one of the FBI's most storied undercovers. Right away, Scott had a lot going on at home. He watched his father struggle with depression, and after a year of constant fighting, his parents filed for divorce. Even though he was raised in a devout Christian family, Scott didn't turn to God for comfort.
- [12:05]
David Cochran
I went into a pretty dark area. I would listen to basically devil worshiping type music. I had a friend introduce me into, like, the witchcraft, black magic, Satanism kind of stuff. And I'm not proud of it at all, but any animal that was in my yard that wasn't my dog, I shot and killed. And I was just meant. But I was hurting, and I was doing stupid stuff.
- [12:33]
Scott Payne
And Scott said he would spend hours watching horror movies. He'd imitate the creepy voices of the characters to try to scare people. And he did. But he says there was one night when he took this shtick too far.
- [12:50]
David Cochran
We were at a party, just drinking. Nothing else. No drugs, no psychedelics, no nothing. It was just drinking. And I remember looking, and all I saw was like, a watery image looking at me. And there was a demon looking at me and laughing as I was laughing and pointing at me and, like, giving me the finger to come here. Long fingernails. I screamed because it scared the living crap out of me, Scared the Jesus back into me. I was as white as a ghost. I was panting heavy. I was pouring sweat. I don't know how many miles it was, but I walked from that house. That was a Saturday night. I didn't sleep. And I walked to Edwards Road Baptist Church and sat through. I think I sat through two sermons. And that was It I was done with the devil worshiping.
- [13:37]
Scott Payne
Scott cemented his faith that day. Shortly after, he went off to college and he decided to study psychology, in part because he wanted to understand his dad's depression.
- [13:50]
David Cochran
One day I hit a criminal justice course and I was like, man, I'm really, really fascinated by this. But when I hit those classes, originally for the criminal justice, I thought, hey, I'll be a lawyer. It didn't take me long to figure out I'd probably be a terrible lawyer. But then I started looking into law enforcement, and by this time, you got to realize I'd already. At that point in my life, I already realized I was a bully of bullies. Now, that doesn't mean I'm tough. It doesn't mean I'm better than anybody else. But what it does mean is I always take up for the little guy.
- [14:27]
Scott Payne
So Scott finished up his psychology degree as he began exploring options in law enforcement. But he was also acquiring some valuable schooling at the time that didn't come from higher education. He was about to learn a lot inside a bar called Desperados. How do you know when an idea is worth your time? I'm Nala Ayed, host of Ideas. Join me as we deep dive into the stories and ideas that shape us. No topic is off limits, from the allure of authoritarianism to what we can learn from the average cat. Find and follow ideas wherever you get your podcasts.
- [15:15]
Joe Ferris
It was an event center bar.
- [15:19]
Scott Payne
Joe Ferris is one of Scott's closest friends. They both played football in college and they were roommates. Scott was paying for his tuition by bouncing at a country bar named Desperado's. Joe worked there with him.
- [15:32]
Joe Ferris
And you know, of course, anytime you're at a place like that and you know there's people consuming alcohol, there's going to be fights and that you got to break up, got to fight people to get them outside the bar, to get them usually into the custody of Charleston County Sheriff's office, because usually the manager, somebody would call the sheriff's office when you had a big fight or something.
- [15:57]
Scott Payne
And I think, I mean, obviously to be a bouncer, you need to have physical strength, but what other kind of skills do you need to have? And in particular, what kind of skills did Scott have when he was working there?
- [16:06]
Joe Ferris
You know, one of the big skills, just being able to talk to somebody, being able to convince, especially in bouncing, convince someone that is drunk to maybe do something they don't want to do, like leave the club or, you know, leave this person alone or whatever. It is just, you know, where you're. You don't have to just go up and fight every time. So just being able to talk to somebody is huge.
- [16:35]
Scott Payne
Scott says that's how he learned what he likes to call his verbal judo.
- [16:41]
David Cochran
So if you've only got two bouncers for a whole bar, and there's two to three parties of bachelor parties, and they got 10 to 15 people in each, what are you going to do if they all break bad? You got to start learning how to talk. You got to start learning how to be a people person, at least in my mind, and that's what I did.
- [17:00]
Scott Payne
When he graduated from college, it took a while to get a policing job, so he kept bouncing. His first chance at law enforcement came in 1993 when he started working for the Greenville County Sheriff's Office, where that ability to talk served him well.
- [17:17]
David Cochran
I remember my first beat area, it went all the way up to the state line in North Carolina, so it was a mountainous region, so it's not like super busy with calls. But it was a great place to kind of learn. You know, you'd show up out there and no backup. Your backup's probably 40 plus minutes away. And you show up and there's a dude standing there with a shotgun and you know somebody's shot, there's a dead person laying there, and you're like, ah, well, how are things going today? Okay, good. I'm, I'm, I'm Officer Payne, you know, with the sheriff's office. Got a call on disturbance. I'm up here. Tell me what happened. Well, that's, you know, he came in here and I shot him. All right, cool. Can you give me a statement? You know, it was already done before you got there.
- [18:05]
Scott Payne
From beat cop, Scott moved to vice and narcotics. This was the early 90s, two decades into the war on drugs.
- [18:14]
Terry Rankhorn
All of us agree that the gravest domestic threat facing our nation today is drugs. Our courts, our prisons, our legal system are stretched to the breaking point. In short, drugs are sapping our strength as a nation.
- [18:30]
Scott Payne
As President George H.W. bush promised victory, Forbes magazine named Pablo Escobar the seventh richest man in the world. On some nights, Scott's assignment would be to pose as a buyer looking for a fix.
- [18:45]
David Cochran
We pull up to one of these streets that's in a rough neighborhood, high drug trafficking area, and they're like, hey, man, just roll down there. We got the camera already set up. We're just going to roll you through. You got 20 bucks, you're going to buy a rock. A Crack rock. I'm like, I don't know, 280 pounds. I mean, I do not look like I smoke crack, right? You know, unless I just started. So I pull down the street and I roll up to the corner, and, man, they're coming up, and they're like, what you want? What you want? You know? And I'm like. I roll down the window, and I. And I'm like, give me a 20. And I slide the 20 bucks through the window like it's, you know, like a. I don't know, like I'm putting something into the ATM or something or a vending machine. And the guy gives me, I don't know, a sliver of a rock. It was probably soap, for all I know. Who knows? But I was so scared. I was freaking out, man. I was like, you know? But, you know, that's. That's how you start. You start learning.
- [19:42]
Scott Payne
Scott knew right away that's what he wanted to do. He was not going to stop until he became an undercover agent.
- [19:49]
David Cochran
I'm an adrenaline junkie. It's not like I'm jumping out of planes or, you know, jumping off of buildings, but you're adrenaline junkie, and, man, that's. That was cool, you know? You get that. Oh, man, this is awesome.
- [20:05]
Scott Payne
But there were only so many opportunities that came through the local sheriff's office.
- [20:10]
David Cochran
I mean, really, how deep are you going to go deep undercover in your county if you've already been a cop or if when you bus people as a narcotics officer, you have to go to court and testify? I mean, there's only so many ways you can shave your facial hair and grow your hair and change your clothes and change out vehicles before they just. They just know.
- [20:31]
Scott Payne
But during one of his shifts, he was passing the hours with this sergeant who he idolized.
- [20:36]
David Cochran
He looked like a bulldog. He's a former Marine. Popeye Forearms with a tattoo, I'm pretty sure of a bulldog on his forearm. If it wasn't a bulldog, it was the Marine, you know, Semper Fi and Anchor, but he might have had both, I don't know. But he looked like a bulldog. We were on surveillance, and I was sitting with him, and at that point, my nickname was Kingpin.
- [21:00]
Scott Payne
You're gonna learn that Scott has a lot of nicknames. I'm not sure I've met anybody with as many as he says he has.
- [21:07]
David Cochran
He said, kingpin, you know, he said, if I was a young guy like you and I was single and I had a college degree, he said I'd apply with the FBI. And I looked at him and I said, what are you. Are you crazy? What are you smoking? I'm like, that's ridiculous. I said, I thought the FBI just did bank robberies. He said, no, son. They do everything.
- [21:30]
Scott Payne
So he applies, and he gets in. With his basset hound in tow, Scott packs up his 4x4 truck and heads to the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia. Weeks into the program, all the agents in training are assigned a stressful task list. The FBI offices where you'd like to work in order of preference, all 56 of them.
- [21:52]
David Cochran
You're laying in bed and you're sweating, going, wait a minute. If I put Denver first, but then I start in the Southeast, they may send me to Honolulu. I'd like to go to Honolulu. I've never been, but, man, that's a long way from. You know what I mean? You start doing all this stuff. And I basically started in the Southeast and just worked my way all the way around. So you go up there and stand in front of everybody on orders night, and you walk up and they got the map of the United States, and they start putting pins where everybody's going, well, out of, like, 52 people in my class, man, I didn't get called to, like, the last five or 10 people. So I saw some people get New Orleans, and I go, man, I had that high on my list. I saw Philly, and I go, well, that's closer than you know. And I'm seeing some other things. So when I stood up, I said, I'm Scott Payne. I'm from Greenville, South Carolina. I said, my number one pick was Denver. And I said, what do I think I'm gonna get? Well, it's not looking too good for the Southern guys. And I opened it up, and it was New York City. And I said, new York City. I said. Then my nickname was Big Country. And I said, big Country. Going to the Big Apple.
- [23:00]
Joe Ferris
Well, I thought it was hilarious. I was like, scott will never fit in there.
- [23:06]
Scott Payne
That's Scott's college buddy, Joe Ferris.
- [23:08]
Joe Ferris
Again, he is just country is all, get out. There's no way he's gonna make it there.
- [23:17]
Scott Payne
But Scott has a knack for fitting in even when he doesn't. So on the 22nd floor of the FBI building in Manhattan, he finds a home with the Colombian drug squad unit. It was a busy beat, yet he can't stop thinking about doing undercover work.
- [23:35]
David Cochran
I knew I wanted to be in undercover from my cop days. And when I got in the FBI, I was like, oh, this is what they do.
- [23:43]
Scott Payne
But to become an undercover agent with the FBI, you have to pass a rigorous certification program at their undercover school. It's not something you can just sign up for. And it would take him another four years until he even got an invitation to attend the program.
- [24:02]
Terry Rankhorn
So it's extremely competitive to get into the FBI undercover program. When I joined my wife and I joined the FBI, took three out of every 100 applicants.
- [24:13]
Scott Payne
Terry Rankhorn spent 21 years in the FBI, and he and his wife retired shortly before Scott in 2019.
- [24:21]
Terry Rankhorn
So just getting in the door, you're seeing Harvard Law graduates being turned away. You're seeing people who were former Navy seals being turned away. So you get this feeling. It's like, wow, I'm really in the top cut here. It's like, I made the NFL draft or the NBA draft.
- [24:40]
Scott Payne
Like Scott, he was an undercover agent, and he was also an instructor at the FBI's exclusive undercover school.
- [24:48]
Terry Rankhorn
It's such a difficult course. I mean, you were surviving on. I think the average is about three hours of sleep per night for two weeks. And you're thrown into these scenarios where you have to think on your feet and you have to improvise. And if you screw up, it doesn't go well for you. They're very violent scenarios. You may be doing an arms deal in a hotel room, and you screw up and say the wrong thing, or you forget part of your legend.
- [25:16]
Scott Payne
Legend. That's FBI speak for your backstory, your undercover Persona.
- [25:21]
Terry Rankhorn
And all of a sudden, you're just pummeled by these big geezers that grab you and drag you into the bathroom, and you're literally pushing your head under the. A bathtub.
- [25:30]
Scott Payne
Oh, wow. These are the instructors. They're doing. It sounds a little bit like hazing.
- [25:34]
Terry Rankhorn
Oh, it's. And we've been accused of that, but it's not hazing. It's not done, like, okay, you know, this is going to happen to you. It's all done to teach lessons to keep you from dying in the real world. We've had students have their. Have teeth knocked out. We've had several students have nervous breakdowns during the school. Literal nervous breakdowns. We've. We've never killed anyone yet, but we've had people medevaced out by a helicopter. Scott was actually one of my students.
- [26:05]
Scott Payne
What were your impressions when you met him?
- [26:08]
Terry Rankhorn
Very impressed. I remember seeing him perform, and he had great composure. He's a big guy, so he could pull off being intimidating, but he's very charismatic, and he was able to think Ahead on the chessboard rather than just react.
- [26:28]
David Cochran
So the. The.
- [26:29]
Terry Rankhorn
A lot of the common misconception about undercovers is that they will. They're used car salesmen, they're slick talkers, and that's really not the case. They're. They're strategists. They're playing a game of chess. And you have to understand the consequences of making. Pushing your queen out to the middle of the board. Okay, what's that going to do for you? What advantages? What disadvantages? But Scott had the ability to use his size in conjunction with humor and strategic thinking to really navigate some really, really complex scenarios and do just a fantastic job.
- [27:12]
Scott Payne
And Scott loved every minute of it.
- [27:15]
David Cochran
When I went through the school, I mean, I would be. Honestly, I was the last one to leave. And they were like, kid, go to bed. And I'm like, I'll get the trash. I mean, I was eating it up. I wanted as much knowledge as I could.
- [27:27]
Scott Payne
After graduating, Scott goes back to his day job. He gets a transfer to another FBI division near the Mexican border in San Antonio, Texas. He's back doing narcotics investigations, human smuggling operations, and he's happy, but he is getting impatient. He really wants an undercover case.
- [27:48]
David Cochran
I was looking for anything, you know, on paper. I didn't really jump out a lot. I'm a white guy with no foreign language, Southern former cop. So what was my backstory? Well, I'm a landscaper. I'm a landscaper. I'm a landscape. Well, how many cases can you do? It's not going to carry you far. You know what I mean? So, you know, I got out, and I started calling about every two weeks. That's always been my M.O. even when I was trying to get a job, even in high school. So I'd call every two weeks, and eventually they just hire you because you're persistent is what I found. But I would call the person over my region at headquarters, supervisor in the undercover unit, and I'd say, hey, sky. Hey, what's going on, country? Hey, you got anything for any white guys with no foreign language? They'd be like, oh, man, we ain't got a two weeks later. Hey, you got anything for any rednecks?
- [28:37]
Scott Payne
He doesn't get a bite, but he is asked to come back to the undercover school as a role player to get more experience.
- [28:44]
David Cochran
One night I might be a banker on a scenario. The next night, I might be a biker. The next night, I might be dressed in a suit. You know something, and you roll with it. But I started getting recruited out of There, some of my mentors, they'd be like, hey, man, would you be interested in coming to Atlanta? I didn't just come up here to role play. I came up here to kind of look for somebody and recruit. I'm like, absolutely. And that's how I started getting noticed.
- [29:10]
Scott Payne
And finally, he gets a chance. It's for a massive biker investigation, and there's nothing Scott would love more. He seems perfect for the role, but first he has to audition. So he flies to Boston.
- [29:22]
David Cochran
I sit in one chair, and there's dea, FBI, atf, all the local agencies, task force officers, and they're just peppering me with questions. Well, how many undercovers have you done? How many biker. Under how many biker gangs have you infiltrated? None. Well, what makes you think you'd be good? Because I'm a biker. I know the undercover technique. I bounced at places where the Hells Angels frequented. They have helped me in many fights. I've done this.
- [29:49]
Scott Payne
He thinks the audition went okay, but he's not the only candidate. And he's pretty green when it comes to undercover work. But then, by coincidence, he's in Oklahoma on a case, and one of his mentors is there.
- [30:04]
David Cochran
He's like, hey, country, come here. I said, yes, sir. I walked in the back. He said, I just got off the phone with Mike, the undercover coordinator. And I said, oh, well, that's funny that I'm actually here when he called. And he said, yeah. He said, he just questioned me about you. And I said, okay. And he said he wanted to know if I would vouch for you. And he said, yeah, I think he's a good kid. This, that, and the other. And he said. And then he pinned me in a corner, and he said, would you use him on your undercover? He said, I told him, yes, I would. And he looked at me and said, so I just vouch for you, so don't this up. And I said, no pressure.
- [30:44]
Scott Payne
Scott gets the gig. His targets, members of the Outlaws, one of America's most violent biker gangs and historic arch rivals of the Hell's Angels. They're notoriously insular and almost impossible to infiltrate. When you got that and you were like, this is my dream. This is what I always wanted to do. This is why I got into it. Did you have any idea what you were in for?
- [31:10]
David Cochran
No. Compared to what happened? No.
- [31:16]
Scott Payne
That's coming up on the next episode of Agent Pale Horse. This series was written and produced by me, Michelle shepherd, senior producer Ashley Mack, and producer Eunice Kim. Mixing and sound design by Evan Kelly. Emily Cannell is our digital producer. Our intern was Rachel Degasperas. Special thanks to Andrew Friesen, Graham McDonald, the CBC Reference Library and Auralation Studios. Chris Oak and Cecil Fernandez are our executive producers, Tanya Springer is the senior manager and Arif Noorani is the Director of CBC Podcasts. This series was written and produced alongside a book I wrote with Scott, codename Pale How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. You can catch up with Season one of White Hot Hate wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're enjoying this series and want to help new listeners discover the show, please take some time to give us a rating and review on whichever is your chosen app. It really helps.
- [32:32]
David Cochran
For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.