Season 2, Episode 4: Do Not Recommend

Summary

White Hot Hate: Agent Pale Horse – Season 2, Episode 4: "Do Not Recommend"

Release Date: April 15, 2025

Introduction

In Season 2 of CBC's gripping podcast series "White Hot Hate," Episode 4, titled "Do Not Recommend," host Michelle Shephard delves deeper into the clandestine world of FBI Special Agent Scott Payne. This episode offers an intricate portrayal of Payne's two-year undercover mission infiltrating one of America's most formidable motorcycle gangs, the Outlaws. As Payne navigates the perilous balance between his covert operations and his personal life, the episode unveils the psychological toll of living a double life and the eventual unraveling of his meticulously maintained facade.

Undercover Operations and Infiltrating the Outlaws

Scott Payne's role as an undercover agent required him to embed himself deeply within the Outlaws, one of the most dangerous motorcycle gangs in the United States. His objective was to dismantle their operations from the inside, focusing on drug trafficking and criminal activities aimed at inciting violence.

Notable Quote:

Scott Payne (02:07): "Hey, is this it? Am I going to die right now? Am I just getting ready to take an ass whipping?"

Payne recounts one harrowing experience where he was strip-searched in the clubhouse basement by Clothesline, the gang's enforcer. This moment epitomizes the constant danger and psychological strain underpinning his undercover work.

Operation Roadkill: Gaining Trust

Operation Roadkill was Payne's most significant and prolonged mission with the Outlaws. Over nearly two years, Payne built genuine relationships within the gang, particularly with Big Scotty, an associate he considered a close friend. These relationships were pivotal in orchestrating a massive sting operation targeting the gang's drug distribution network.

Notable Quote:

Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham (03:30): "I've never watched it. I never wanted to watch it. It was sickening. It was scary."

Sergeant Higginbotham, Payne's handler, underscores the emotional detachment required in such operations, highlighting the severity of the violence Payne was exposed to.

Strains on Family Life

Balancing his undercover duties with his responsibilities as a husband and father proved increasingly challenging for Payne. His wife, Kara Payne, provides a poignant perspective on the personal sacrifices and emotional burdens borne by families of undercover agents.

Notable Quote:

Kara Payne (07:16): "I love my role as a wife. I love my role as a mother. If I could just write my life the way I wanted it, my life was how I would have written it."

Kara describes the relentless uncertainty and loneliness that accompanies her husband's covert assignments, emphasizing the profound impact on their marriage and family dynamics.

Emotional Breakdown and Safeguard Intervention

The relentless pressure and constant exposure to violence eventually led Payne to a critical emotional crisis. After a particularly intense operation, Payne experienced a severe panic attack, culminating in a confrontation with Kara that exposed the cracks in his psychological resilience.

Notable Quote:

Scott Payne (24:01): "Sometimes I don't realize that I'm talking with a super deep, stern voice and that my eyebrows are cocked."

Recognizing the signs of Payne's deteriorating mental health, Sergeant Higginbotham expresses deep concern for his well-being, highlighting the potential for undercover work to inflict lasting psychological damage.

Interaction with Joe Pistone: A Moment of Validation

In a serendipitous encounter, Payne meets Joe Pistone, the real-life FBI agent behind the legendary Donnie Brasco operation. This meeting serves as both a moment of validation and a reminder of the shared experiences and sacrifices inherent in undercover law enforcement.

Notable Quote:

Scott Payne (38:42): "I'm glad you're okay, kid."

Pistone's gesture symbolizes the camaraderie and mutual understanding among undercover agents, reinforcing the episode's themes of identity and personal cost.

Conclusion of Operation Roadkill

As Operation Roadkill reached its climax, Payne orchestrated a coordinated takedown of the Outlaws, resulting in the arrest of 15 key members involved in drug trafficking and other criminal activities. The operation's success was bittersweet for Payne, symbolizing both a professional triumph and the end of his deep undercover journey.

Notable Quote:

Scott Payne (43:12): "He was the key to busting this case."

The episode concludes with Payne reflecting on the operation's impact, the severed bonds with his undercover friends, and the inevitable return to another case, underscoring the perpetual cycle of sacrifice in his line of work.

Key Takeaways

• Psychological Toll: The episode vividly illustrates the mental and emotional challenges faced by undercover agents, emphasizing the fine line between maintaining a cover and preserving one's identity.

• Family Sacrifices: Kara Payne's narrative sheds light on the often-overlooked struggles of families supporting covert operatives, highlighting the personal costs of national security operations.

• Operational Success and Personal Cost: Operation Roadkill's success is portrayed not just as a tactical win but also as a pivotal moment in Payne's life, marking the end of one chapter and the beginning of another fraught with personal and professional challenges.

Notable Quotes Overview

1. Scott Payne (02:07): "Hey, is this it? Am I going to die right now? Am I just getting ready to take an ass whipping?"

2. Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham (03:30): "I've never watched it. I never wanted to watch it. It was sickening. It was scary."

3. Kara Payne (07:16): "I love my role as a wife. I love my role as a mother. If I could just write my life the way I wanted it, my life was how I would have written it."

4. Scott Payne (24:01): "Sometimes I don't realize that I'm talking with a super deep, stern voice and that my eyebrows are cocked."

5. Scott Payne (38:42): "I'm glad you're okay, kid."

6. Scott Payne (43:12): "He was the key to busting this case."

These quotes encapsulate the episode's exploration of fear, emotional strain, familial love, professional dedication, and the fleeting moments of camaraderie that define the undercover experience.

Final Reflections

"Do Not Recommend" offers a compelling and intimate look into the life of an undercover agent, balancing high-stakes operations with the profound personal costs associated with such a career. Through Scott Payne's narrative, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the sacrifices required to combat domestic terrorism and organized crime from within. This episode is a testament to the resilience and complexity of those who operate in the shadows to protect society.

Transcript

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[Narrator]

This is a CBC podcast. The following episode contains strong language and descriptions of violence. Please take care when listening.

[Scott Payne]

But it's like I said.

[Narrator]

This is about as bad as it can get. In an undercover operation, Scott, as in FBI Special Agent Scott Payne, is being strip searched for a wire. He's in the clubhouse basement of one of the most dangerous motorcycle gangs in America, the Outlaws. His cover team is parked outside in a surveillance vehicle listening.

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

And we just sat there and we waited and we didn't know. We kind of just listened to hear what we were going to hear and then make a decision. If there was any violence, obviously we would have to put an end to it.

[Narrator]

Could you still hear Clothesline?

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

Oh yeah, we heard everything. Yeah, everything.

[Narrator]

That's Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham or Higgy. He knows what the Outlaws are capable of, especially Clothesline, the group's enforcer, the one who's doing the search.

[Scott Payne]

Gotta do what I gotta do. And I've only known you a year and a half, so I gotta have my doubts myself. I'm not fucking gonna lie to you. In the back of my head, I got my doubts myself. I don't know you that well.

[Narrator]

Scott is trying to seem nonchalant on the outside. It looks like he's holding it together.

[Scott Payne]

You don't come from, right? That's cool, dude, that's cool.

[Narrator]

But what's going on in his head is a different story.

[Scott Payne]

Hey, is this it? Am I going to die right now? Am I just getting ready to take an ass whipping? I don't know what's going to happen. Are they going to find it? If they find it, I mean, what's going to happen? And lock reaching in find. Right, right. Pictures. My old lady. He did ask me, you know, hey, I'm not going to find anything like some naked pictures of my old lady, right? And he's like laughing cuz I'm supposed to be his buddy. He's like. And I'm like, you know.

[Narrator]

Clothesline Runs his hands all over Scott's clothes. The seconds go by slowly.

[Scott Payne]

But then I pass, and he hands me everything. So we go right back into business. And then I'll make a joke. If I'd have saw plastic on the floor, I'd have been like, I'm gone. Don't say myself. Yeah, I've been like, I'll see y'all later. It's been fun. So I'm having that adrenaline dump now. My hamstrings are starting to come back under me. But I'm a talker, and I'm talking nervously. Are we good? Can I pull my underwear out my ass? Yeah, we're good.

[Narrator]

When I mention this undercover video to Higgy, he reveals something that shocks me.

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

Michelle. I've never watched it.

[Narrator]

What? Really?

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

I never watched it. What I heard, I heard, and I said, that's all I need to know. What else do I need to know? I didn't want to watch it.

[Narrator]

There's no cur. No curiosity?

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

No. I was sitting there. I heard it, and I know it happened, and I didn't need to hear anymore. It was sickening. It was scary.

[Narrator]

After what feels like forever, Scott emerges from the cellar. His heart's racing and ringing in his ears, and he heads straight to the bar to calm his nerves.

[Scott Payne]

And now I'm like, yeah, give me another Jack and Coke. Yeah, give me another Jack and Coke. And they're not even touching me because my adrenaline's so jacked up, you know, like, give me another one. Give me another one. But then Big Scotty shows up, which he knew they were going to take me in the basement, too.

[Narrator]

Just a reminder about the many Scotts. Big Scotty, also known as Scotty. T is Scott Town. He's an associate of the Outlaws and someone who Undercover Scott genuinely considers a close friend.

[Scott Payne]

But me, Scott and Joe Dogs go out to a bar, and essentially I get pissed.

[Narrator]

And you mean pissed as in not drunk, like pissed off.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, pissed off. I remember sitting there going, you know what? I tell you what. You guys show up tomorrow when we meet in the parking lot, I'm gonna strip all you sons of bitches. How's that? Cold as hell outside. You're gonna be all be naked in the damn parking lot. Tex, you need to calm down, man. You know, hey, man, this happens. This is. And I'll tell you, as the case went on, we found out they've taken women down there and put blades against their throat to find out if they're a source. That's the seller. That's what they do down there.

[Narrator]

Scott finishes blowing off steam and they all agree on a meeting spot for the next morning. As soon as he gets back to his hotel room, he makes a phone call.

[Kara Payne]

He would always get me a burner phone whenever he was on any undercover to his wife. And so I would have the phone laying in my bed on my pillow. And when he was done for the night, he would call me. And most of the time it was just like, hey, babe, I'm good. I'll talk to you tomorrow. And I'd say, okay, love you. Good night. And that was all. That was all I needed.

[Narrator]

For safety reasons, we've decided not to use her real name. Instead, we'll call her Kara. Kara and Scott have been together for more than two decades. And Operation Roadkill began just a few years after they started their family.

[Kara Payne]

Normally, our conversation was very short and sweet because it was usually at like 4 in the morning or something. But that particular night I was like, are you good, honey?

[Scott Payne]

And I said, yeah. Why?

[Kara Payne]

Because at one point today I just pulled over on the road and just was praying for you.

[Scott Payne]

She said, I got this overwhelming feeling of like fear and I just started praying for you and Michelle. I matched it up. I'm not making it up. I matched it up. That's when I was in the basement being stripped at gunpoint.

[Narrator]

The exact time?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, exact time, yeah.

[Narrator]

But that terrifying moment was only the beginning. This case would soon push everything to the limit. His marriage, his body and his mind. I'm Michelle shepherd and from cbc, this is Agent Palehorse. Episode four Do NOT recommend.

[Kara Payne]

I think I just was blissfully unaware of how big the cases were that he was working on. I mean, I was new to everything. I didn't know much. You know, this just this girl from small town middle America. I had never even left my state for, you know, most of my life. So meeting him and moving to the places we were, the big cities and the border of Mexico and all the places we've been and all the things he's done, I mean, it's been, it's been quite a ride.

[Narrator]

As they say, opposites attract. And that's true for Scott and his wife. Scott doesn't mind the limelight. Kara, she's more of a behind the scenes person.

[Kara Payne]

I love my role as a wife. I love my role as a mother. If I could just write my life the way I wanted it, my life was how I would have written it. So as far as that goes, you know, I love being the supporting person in the relationship.

[Narrator]

They Met through mutual friends back in the 90s. Before Scott joined the FBI, he was working in the Vice and narcotics unit in South Carolina at the time. And after years of dating long distance, they tied the knot in 2001.

[Kara Payne]

I mean, immediately when we got married, he started his undercovers. And I remember telling him one morning, I'm like, maybe you could go back to landscaping. And he's like, what are you talking about? And I said, well, I don't like saying goodbye to you in the morning and not. Not knowing if you're going to come home that night. And he said, honey, I could be mowing the lawn and get struck by lightning. If it's my day to go, it's my day to go. We're believers. That's what we believe.

[Narrator]

Their faith bonded them from the beginning. And Kara says it was her faith that helped her with the stress of his undercover work. That and a film starring Johnny Depp and Al Pacino.

[Kara Payne]

Here's what I tell people when they ask me, like, how did you cope with, you know, living with an undercover and how did you deal with it? And I said, well, I did get some training through the movie of Donnie Brasco. That was my training.

[Narrator]

If you've seen this film, this isn't exactly comforting. Donnie Brasco is based on the real life story of Joe Pistone, an FBI agent who went undercover for six years to infiltrate one of the biggest mafia families in New York City. It was a tough gig and very hard on his marriage. Brasco's wife is played in the movie by Anne Hesch. He leaves me with the house and the kids and the bills, but not a husband. I want my husband. Even though Scott and Kara would talk every day when he was undercover, she couldn't help but worry about him.

[Kara Payne]

He would leave for about two weeks. Days were fine. But around about 9pm I would start. It would just start in my chest and I would kind of know what he was probably getting ready to start doing that evening. And so I would just rearrange furniture and I'd make my whole house look different. And then I'd go to bed and sleep peacefully.

[Narrator]

Despite what you see in the movies, being an undercover agent is rarely a full time gig. They usually have to juggle multiple roles and cases at the same time. And on top of that, Scott was also an instructor.

[Scott Payne]

A typical month might go like this. This full weekend, three day, four day weekend, I'm undercover in Oklahoma. I come home, I'm putting together all that stuff, typing it up, then I go and I'll be a case agent. And then I take off to Massachusetts and I'm undercover for the Outlaws. I come back and because I'm anal and try to be a professional, I would go through all the recordings and end up typing these long reports with accurate verbatim statements in them that were pertinent to the case. And then maybe the last week I find out that the training coordinator for the division has set up that whole week we're doing firearms and tactical training. So, you know, and then in between all that, we as a SWAT team might get called out two or three times.

[Kara Payne]

It was a tough time. He did the work of not two people, but three or possibly ten. I don't know anyone else who could sustain that kind of workload and that period of time and still stay focused and clear and know what your goal is and successfully carry it out.

[Scott Payne]

So I would come home just beat, and I'm like, I'm so happy to see my family and, you know, get caught up on what I missed and how things are going. But I was just beat. And I mean, I wanted a home cooked meal. I was tired of going through drive throughs. I was tired of eating out. And to me, at that point, Hamburger Helper would have been a home cooked meal. And I would come home sometimes and it may be like a Thursday night or something, or a Friday. And I would get there and my wife, she'd say, guess what, honey? And I'd go, what? She goes, I got a babysitter, so we can go out tonight. And I'd go, oh, damn it, my liver's going, no. And I'm like, oh, man, you know, let's go have some drinks. I've missed you. Let's have some quality time. And I'm like, oh. But I cowboy up and try to make it, you know.

[Narrator]

The nights Scott was home, he'd also try to spend as much time as possible with his daughters.

[Scott Payne]

At the end of the day, I would most likely pour myself a Jack and Coke. And then I would go into my oldest daughter's room first, and then I would rock her to sleep. But as I'm rocking her, I would always hum an Elvis song. Why? I have no idea. But it was one of two songs I would either always hum. Are you launching the Night by Elvis? Or the American Trilogy by Elvis. And I would hum those until she fell asleep. And then I would go into my youngest daughter's room and she. I would do. Sometimes I would do this thing on them where I would just kind of like, you know, Just not a massage, but like, you know, you just rub your finger very lightly across the eyebrow and across the forehead and then down their face. And I would count it, It'd be like 1, 2, and I'd go through their hair and over their ears and maybe tickle the lip and come back up. So that was the trick. But my youngest daughter would. She, I think she was asleep and she'd tap me and she'd go, daddy, do the twick, do the twick. Because she's still learning how to speak.

[Narrator]

Scott continued to balance life at home and with the outlaws. And his friendship with the targets continued to deepen, especially with Big Scotty.

[Scott Payne]

And it does get harder the deeper you go and the longer you are, you know, because, you know, he's got kids that are the same age as my kids. And instead of being at home with my youngest daughter, rocking her to sleep or doing the twick, she's there without me. And I'm holding his daughter and I'm bouncing her on my lap.

[Kara Payne]

I mean, he would come home with stories and so he would talk about these guys, especially one in particular that he literally was best friends through and through with this guy. Other than just the one little detail of he wasn't being completely honest about who he was, but other than that he was who he is, you know, and he, other than his name, he was, he was him.

[Narrator]

Big Scotty was respected by the outlaws. He'd often bring Scott to gatherings and vouch for him.

[Scott Payne]

And, you know, I'm walking in and of course everybody's like, you know, he's like, hey, what's going on? Brother's like, hey. He's Big T. Big Scotty. Hey, what's going on? You know, and they're doing this, they turn to me and I'd go, yeah. They go, who are you? And I go, I'm just his bitch. I'm just following him today, you know, nothing to look at here, you know, that's me. I did like the self deprecating humor, the Tommy boy, Chris Farley type stuff. And, you know, we go in there and you start meeting more people and hanging out, building trust, you know, getting to know people.

[Narrator]

The two became inseparable. And as the investigation went on, Scott couldn't help but think about what loomed around the corner.

[Scott Payne]

You sit there and you go, man, this dude's got four daughters. He said he almost went to jail. 25 to life. One time he paid a bunch of money to get out of it. And I'm like, why are you doing this, why do you want to be a part of this big deal? I mean, in other words, I'm not forcing you.

[Narrator]

The big deal. That's the protection detail that Scott and his team had set up where the Outlaws would guard a supposed transport of drugs moving from Mexico to Canada. It was going to be the biggest sting to date. Which explains why the Outlaws were so nervous and why Scott ended up strip searched in the cellar.

[Scott Payne]

Now, did I sleep that night? Shit, maybe an hour. There's so much emotion and adrenaline going through you, you know, it's just like I barely slept. And then I get up the next day and I'm hoping they show up. I'm hoping I pass the test. Are we doing this? Are we not doing it? And they all show up.

[Narrator]

That morning, Scott meets the Outlaws outside a diner.

[Scott Payne]

And I go, okay, so here's how it's going to go down. We're going to go to the West Gate Mall and immediately, you know, the him hawing starts and Chocolate Scott's like, oh man, that's like two minutes from my house. I could have slept another hour. And then Joe Dogs, he says, I swear to God, you guys are the laziest bunch of criminals I've ever met in my entire life.

[Narrator]

Once they stop complaining, Scott gets them back on track. So this was the plan. The semi trailers would be parked rear to rear. They raised the doors and start moving the drug shipment as quickly as possible. And remember, while the drivers were undercover FBI agents posing as the Mexican cartel and the Canadian buyers, the drugs are real. The Outlaws would be responsible for surveillance and security.

[Scott Payne]

The plan was if cops are seen or anything suspicious is heard, doors go down, trucks pull apart from each other. We sit and wait. There's a hotel by the Westgate Mall. And there's only three entrances, three ways in and out to get to that hotel. So it made it easy. Three choke points to watch.

[Narrator]

They head over to a parking lot across the street from the mall and take their places.

[Scott Payne]

We were sitting there on surveillance and I remember Chocolate Scott calls out and he's like, hey. He basically uses the verb he's cop verbiage. He's like, hey, you got one coming to you. Tented, occupied. Two times. And I, and I was like, I turned, I turned to Scott Town and I'm like, what the hell did he just say? And he's like, what? I go, occupied. Two times. I said, that bitch been watching too many cop shows. When you're becoming an undercover, you gotta let the cop shit go. You can't be Talking like a cop.

[Narrator]

Exactly. I know. So you must have had a moment where you're like, oh, chocolate. Scott might be undercover as well.

[Scott Payne]

They were better on surveillance than a lot of people I've trained.

[Narrator]

Two teams of undercover agents pull into the parking lot. After some quick hellos, they get down to business.

[Scott Payne]

Joe Dogs insisted on being on the truck. I want to be in there. I want to be in there. I'm like, okay, all right. So you got asthma. I don't know how much you can pick up, move.

[Narrator]

But with Joe Dog's help, the drivers move the packages from one truck to another. And in just a matter of minutes, it's done. The doors close, the trucks pull apart, and take off in opposite directions.

[Scott Payne]

And again, this is like 2006 ish.7 ish. So weed was not near as legal as it is now. And, boy, it reeked too. You could smell it when the truck would drive by.

[Narrator]

It went exactly as planned. The drugs never left FBI custody. No one got hurt. And after months of patiently building the case, prosecutors could start drawing up arrest warrants. As far as the outlaws were concerned, 40 kilos of cocaine and 1,000 pounds of weed were headed to the Canadian border, all thanks to their top notch surveillance. This was a huge win for Agent Payne, the undercover, and Tex, the semi legitimate businessman. But Scott, the family man, was needed at home.

[Scott Payne]

That Thursday night. I sleep maybe a couple of hours, and then Friday, I get up and I'm back on. I get on a flight to fly home to McAllen. I drive that's probably like 15, 20 minutes to the house, walk straight in, brush my teeth, change my shirt, and my wife and my daughters and my.

[Narrator]

Mother in law, already he loads everyone into the truck, and off they go to the big annual Rio Grande Valley Christmas party for FBI agents and their families.

[Scott Payne]

So I show up and I'm Santa Claus. Here I am, literally a couple of days earlier, naked in a basement at gunpoint, and, you know, ho effing ho, right? You know.

[Kara Payne]

He had very long days, very long nights, a lot of lack of sleep, a. A ton of drinking while he was there, you know, which we all know was just complicates things, but he just functioned through it all. I definitely remember how exhausted he was. And, you know, as a wife, you're like, what can I do to help you? And there's nothing I can do.

[Narrator]

Then came a day that Kara refers to as a wake up call.

[Kara Payne]

He was at work, and I was at home, and one of our kids was sick, and I was just Trying to decide to take her to the doctor. Just such a simple thing. And so I called him. And I mean, I just. I kind of called him for everything.

[Scott Payne]

Well, we would get in these arguments because my wife hated going to the doctor, because as a protective mother, she's like, it's a virus. I'm going to take our kid. We're going to sit in a waiting room for three plus hours or more with a bunch of sick kids, exposing our kids to more. And after a whole day, they're going to go, oh, it's just a virus. But my point was, we'll go make sure they're taking the money out of my damn check anyway. We got a health plan. Go. So that conversation had happened more than.

[Kara Payne]

Once, but he was in the middle of an interview, and I didn't know that he took the call.

[Scott Payne]

I was with another agent interviewing somebody on something pretty serious. And it was a pretty break. I can't remember the case, but it was. It was a good interview and we were getting what we needed. You know, this is where I'm working the magic, you know. And I answered the phone and I said, have you taken her to the doctor? And she said, no. And I gave a sigh, an exhale, like a. Now I'm doing that because I'm looking at the person across from me and thinking, I'm going to have to cut this interview. What she hears is, I'm extremely pissed off. And here we go again. And I don't know if there was yelling, but she hung up. So I'm like, okay, well, let's finish this interview and I'm going home.

[Kara Payne]

And so I was super upset, but I just didn't go to the doctor. And I was rocking our daughter in her room. And he comes in the house, and it's the middle of the day. So I'm like, what? And he came in the bedroom and she was asleep. And I was like, I mean, this. Nothing like this had ever happened to me. But he really lost his temper with me.

[Scott Payne]

I. Sometimes I don't realize that I'm talking with a super deep, stern voice and that my eyebrows are cocked. And I. And I don't realize that. And I'm not as mad as you think I am, or I may not be mad at all, but either way, we hit that spiral. And it just kept getting worse and worse. And I remember I would never lay my hands on her or do anything like that, but. But I kicked an ottoman. It was on the floor. And I was like, I can't. Bam. I kick the ottoman, it flies across the room, hits the drywall, and punches a big ass hole in it. And I'm like, damn, I'm gonna have to fix that. You know, that's what I'm thinking. And she gets up, goes into the bathroom, and shuts the door and locks it with our girl.

[Kara Payne]

I kept telling him to leave, get out. And he wouldn't. He kept persisting and persisting. And I was like, if you don't leave, I'm gonna make two phone calls. One is to the cops, and the next one's to the divorce lawyer. I'm like, just get out of my house.

[Narrator]

In the fall of 2001, while Americans were still grappling with the horror of September 11, envelopes started showing up at media outlets and government buildings filled with a white lethal powder, Anthrax. But what's strange is if you ask people now what happened with that story, almost no one knows. It's like the whole thing just disappeared. Who mailed those letters, do you know? From Wolf Entertainment, USG Audio, and CBC Podcasts. This is Aftermath the Hunt for the Anthrax Killer, available now.

[Scott Payne]

She said, I called 911. She goes, But I hung up. And I said, it doesn't matter. I'm a damn cop. You call 911 in the United States and you hang up, they're gonna try to call you back if you don't answer. Somebody's coming. A uniformed cop's coming. So I called my boss, and he said, I'm just eating lunch. I said, well, you might want to wrap it up and get over to my house because McAllen PD is on their way.

[Kara Payne]

I'm pretty sure his boss ended up coming. And the police came, and the first thing they asked me, is he armed? And I said, yes. And so it was kind of a big thing, you know, they were very thorough in making sure everything was okay. And just to make sure I was.

[Scott Payne]

Okay, no reports were filed or anything like that, but Safeguard was notified. And they. They said, you. You can't go back on an undercover until you come here to get assessed. You know, just like the basement.

[Narrator]

Safeguard is a unit in the FBI that monitors the well being of its employees. It was created in the 80s to help undercover agents cope with the pressures of the job or the aftermath of a traumatic event. Must have been hard, though, when you realized how scared she was of you in that moment. Like, I appreciate what you're saying, that you don't know what your face is doing. Don't always take in impact. You Know your size, but there is such a gender and physical divide there. And to know like, she took your daughter into the bathroom. It must be. Must have been, yeah.

[Scott Payne]

Well, it would break my heart if I thought she was that scared of me.

[Kara Payne]

I've never been afraid of my husband. And that day I was afraid. I mean, I locked myself in the bathroom. And I think he let exhaustion and anger just kind of take over because it certainly wasn't about whether I was going to take our daughter to the doctor. That's not what that was about. And when he came in, in the bedroom and he literally was like bowed up and he was mad and I've never ever. That's never happened before.

[Narrator]

Safeguard brings Scott in for a detailed assessment. There's a long written test, then two conversations, one with a psychologist and the other with a counselor who's usually a fellow undercover.

[Scott Payne]

One of the tests was. Or one of the assessments is open ended sentences. So it's literally like, men are, you complete the sentence. Women are, you complete it. My mother is, my father is, my badge and my gun are. And one of them was the last time I relaxed, I, and I literally went blank. I had nothing, like, I couldn't think of anything that I did that was relaxing. And I'm sitting here going, I go, well, working out. And I go, nah, working out is a way of life. I mean, does it release endorphins? Does it make me feel better? Yeah, but I'm not working out to Yanni, I'm not in some Namaste, you know, you know, I'm throwing iron around and screaming and punching bags and, you.

[Narrator]

Know, Scott still passes the test and the Safeguard team clears him to go back to work.

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

I was worried about him. I was worried about his emotional state, really. He's married, kids, he's with these guys.

[Narrator]

Higgy was watching and listening to Scott more than anyone, and he worried about Scott's psyche. After spending so many days and nights with violent criminals, he could easily get.

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

Hurt, he could harm his marriage. There's a lot of things that could go wrong. And he's drinking.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

And he's on motorcycles, he's in cars. All the things that happen to civilians could happen to him.

[Narrator]

Right.

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

And that's his job, that's his career. Then after a while, you see his personality, it changes. It changes. And I've seen it with undercovers before.

[Narrator]

But the case continued. And next up, Daytona Bike Week. That's a motorcycle rally held every year in Daytona Beach, Florida. Even though the event is meant for all bike Enthusiasts, members of the major motorcycle gangs never fail to show up. And they don't leave their rivalries at home.

[Scott Payne]

We're just going where the case will take you. I'm getting introduced to more people. I'm getting introduced to higher ranking people. I'm getting more exposure. So you might get new targets.

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

The problem is he's had a national run for the outlaws. We don't know who they bring to their parties and their meetings and the people he's going to see. He could have easily bumped into someone he had arrested as a local cop or whatever or an FBI agent. He knows he's around dangerous people. He's there.

[Narrator]

Scott makes his way to Florida with another undercover agent, who we'll call Tony. The whole week, he's rubbing shoulders with outlaw members from around the world, including one very senior outlaw who investigators had been watching closely. Everyone called him hillbilly. Hillbilly. He took a liking to Scott and started talking pretty freely around him. This got the FBI team in Florida excited, so much so that an agent asked if Scott would work undercover there as well.

[Scott Payne]

He said, how about we get get together, we put it all on a big table. Boston, don't take your case down yet, Scott. You come to Florida and patch under hillbilly.

[Narrator]

Getting patched as a full fledged outlaw is a big deal for an undercover. A notch in your belt like you were that good, convincing them you're legit, that they let you into the inner circle. The taunton chapter, which he infiltrated, had wanted Scott to patch over, but higgy and the rest of the team in Massachusetts were opposed to it from the beginning.

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

So they bring him in. That means he has to be a probationary outlaw. He has to start like everybody else. So he has to basically be that guy. He may be required to commit a violent act or commit a felony to get that patch. So they put him in that position. Then they start showing up at his house or his apartment. You know what I mean? So now you look at, like, Scott, like, where the l was. He was with them, riding with them. So he'd ride at the back of the pack. But when the angels of the rival gangs attack bikers, they have in Massachusetts, I'm sure they do in other states. They go to the back of the pack, they run them over, and they shoot them. That's what they do. So now we're going to have this big guy, 6, 4, 6, 5. He's a perfect target for a rival gang. So I'm not comfortable with that, and why would I be?

[Narrator]

But it's kind of like the bragging rights, right? That you get patched shows that you were in deep and they really believed you. And so as an undercover, that's.

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

Yes. It's the ultimate. It's the ultimate in your face. I got your colors. I'm wearing your colors. I infiltrated you, your club. That's the victory.

[Narrator]

The case team was close to wrapping up Operation Roadkill. But Scott now had the chance to help take down even bigger targets within the Outlaws. Sure, he was tired, and patching over would stretch the case longer than expected. It would mean more late nights, drive thru meals, and long flights across the country. But the prospect still excited Scott.

[Scott Payne]

I said, hell yeah. Now let's patch. I'm like, yeah, man, let's go, let's go. I had been infatuated with the. I mean, I was a biker. I am a biker. I mean, that was my goal. I mean, that was like a kid in a candy store, you know, you let me run free, a kid run free. And Toys r Us get anything you want, you know? But what I didn't realize is that I was already shutting down. I wake up one of those mornings, and I mean, you can still hear the eggs and whiskey sloshing in your belly. I'm feeling fat and out of shape. I'm like, I'm gonna go ahead and get some kind of a workout in. In the hotel room, man. I'm doing mountain climbers, I'm doing push ups, I'm doing body squats, I'm doing burpees. And then I come up for air and there's not any. And I'm going, my belly's all bloated. I'm like, what the hell's going on? And I forgot all about combat breathing. I forgot all about breathing in a paper bag to regulate your oxygen versus carbon dioxide. And hair follicles are tingling, shaking, and, you know, I'm pouring sweat. Every pore in my body is opening, and I had a panic attack.

[Narrator]

Then Scott hears a knock.

[Scott Payne]

And I open the door and I got a towel wrapped around me, but I'm as white as the towel and my lips are all pursed.

[Narrator]

It's Tony, the other undercover who rode with him to Daytona.

[Scott Payne]

And he looks at me and with his Hispanic accent, he goes, are you okay, my friend? And I'm like, I don't think so. So he comes in. I know I laugh about it now, but I was. I was scared, right? He comes in.

[Narrator]

They walk outside to Scott's balcony overlooking the hotel pool and the Atlantic Ocean.

[Scott Payne]

And we're talking and he's like, he's been around a long time and, and was very wise to things that can happen undercovers. And he starts going through a litany of things. It's this list. He's like, well, you know, sometimes we get stressed because we don't know when the case is going to end. And I'm like, okay, okay, okay. Sometimes we get stressed because we know the case is going to end and they're getting ready to find out that you've been lying to him this whole time. Oh, okay, okay. Sometimes. And he starts saying all this shit and he goes, he looks over, he goes, is it any of that? And I said, well, it is now. Damn it. I said, I wouldn't even. I said none of that was in my head, but now it is. I shit, yeah, it's all of that.

[Narrator]

But Scott didn't have time to think about these things. They were still in Daytona in the thick of bike week.

[Scott Payne]

Did I stop? Did I say, man, something's not right. I need to go home. We need to stop this operation? No. I took an hour nap. I got up feeling shell shocked. And I'm like, okay, let's go back out.

[Narrator]

He finally flies back home to Texas after partying with the Outlaws all weekend.

[Scott Payne]

And for five days, I slept over 16 hours a day. That first two days, I probably could have slept close to 20. Who knows? By that Friday, I was slightly worried. I knew that I wasn't depressed because I know what that feels like. I knew I wasn't sick. I know what that feels like. And that Friday morning, I was burning sick leave and I got a call from a buddy of mine. His first thing he said to me was, how are you doing, country? And I said, not too good. And he said, what are you talking about? So we talked for an hour. I just walked around my pool outside sweating my ass off, telling him everything that had happened. And he basically let me talk myself into, Scott, you need to call Safeguarding.

[Narrator]

Scott calls Safeguards after hours hotline. Two weeks later, a psychologist and a counselor fly to see him for an in person assessment.

[Scott Payne]

And I get in there for the counselor talk. He sits me down. And I am ready for all these questions. I'm ready. I got answers for everything. Because, hey, I got this. I'm back, I'm fine. It was just a bump in the road. And he looks at me and he says, man, we've known each other for what, like 10 plus years? I was like, yeah. He said, do something different. He goes, I want to change. I want to change roles. I want you to pretend that you're me and I'm you and we're here right now with everything that's happened. And I said, uh huh. And he says, what would you tell me? And that threw me off. I looked at him, and I was thinking in my head, you son of a bitch. And I leaned down, I looked down to the ground, and I took a deep breath, and I said, I would tell you that you need to take a break and that you should have taken one a long time ago.

[Narrator]

Safeguard ends up issuing Scott a DNR, which stands for Do Not Recommend. It's like the FBI's version of a timeout. It means he can't work as a case agent or go undercover for at least six months. With the dnr, Scott was technically only allowed to teach and role play at the undercover school. One day, he's in the middle of a lesson about how to manage stress as an undercover agent when a supervisor drops by with a special guest, and.

[Scott Payne]

He comes walking in with Joe Bastone. Joe walks right up and sits directly to my right, staring at me. And I'm like. I said, well, class, speaking of undercover stressors, why don't y'all say hello to Mr. Joe Pistone, aka Donnie Brasco, the.

[Narrator]

Joe Pistone, the FBI agent whose story was turned into a Hollywood blockbuster. He listens as Scott talks to the class about his experience of being strip searched in the basement.

[Scott Payne]

You know, I'm sitting here getting butterflies, teaching it, because I'm talking about something that's still pretty fresh.

[Narrator]

And once the lesson's over, people start forming a line to shake Scott's hand.

[Scott Payne]

Pistone's in line. And I remember thinking, why is he in line? And then he comes up, and when he gets to me, he. He gives me a little kiss on the cheek. A little the Italian Mafia slap, you know, and he's like, I'm glad you're okay, kid. And then he walks off. And I'm just like. I don't want to say that's what I was striving for, because that's not what you want to strive for.

[Narrator]

But we must have been like, did that just happen?

[Scott Payne]

Yeah, it was pretty. For me, it was pretty freaking awesome. Not that I went through all that stuff. It's just that, you know, that was Joe Preston.

[Narrator]

That cheek slap from Donnie Brasco is a nice distraction, because the day he was teaching that lesson was the day Operation Roadkill would come to an end. When Scott got the dnr, he couldn't just drop everything and walk away without jeopardizing the case. The Outlaws would become suspicious, so he was allowed to keep in touch with the targets by phone.

[Sergeant Thomas Higginbotham]

He didn't drop out of the investigation. He didn't. He stayed in the investigation, but he was a puppeteer. He was doing his deals from whatever state he was in, and we were able to finish the case.

[Narrator]

And if any of the Outlaws asked why he wasn't coming around anymore, he had an explanation.

[Scott Payne]

They knew that I'd gotten married, and they knew that I had kids with this woman, or at least that's what the story was. And I told them, I said, look, I'm getting a divorce. Her family's in El Paso, which is like, way the other way. And I said, I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning if I don't get her and my kids set up. I said, but as soon as that shit's done, I'm fucking coming up to Massachusetts. I'm sick of this hot fucking place. So we did it that way.

[Narrator]

He had been embedded with the Outlaws for almost two years. He had been in their homes, met their families, shared meals together, bounced their kids on his lap. Parts of his identity as Tex or Scott Callaway may have been fake, but some of the connections he'd made were far from it. The night of the takedown, as SWAT team teams carry out the arrests, Scott's undercover phone suddenly rings, and it's Scott Town.

[Scott Payne]

And here's the closest guy. This is the closest friendship that I've made over this two years in that targeted group. And he's all raspy voice, you know, he's like, hey, hey, Tex. You know, I don't know what happened. He goes, I just got a call that your truck drivers, they got locked up because I don't know what's going on. And I said, I don't know anything about it. He goes, well, okay, I'm going to get up. I'm going to get cleaned up. I'm going to find out what the fuck's going on, and I'm going to call you back and let you know. And I said, okay, man. Our last words together was. He chirps and he says, I love you, brother. And I chirped back, and I said, I love you, too. And then I hung up the phone. Phone.

[Narrator]

Less than an hour later, Scott Town was in handcuffs.

[Kara Payne]

A notorious Massachusetts motorcycle gang busted on a variety of crimes tonight, including drugs, gun, and fraud charges.

[Scott Payne]

Fifteen people in all are behind bars after federal Agents raided the outlaw motorcycle club on School street in Taunton, and an undercover officer was the key to busting this case.

[Narrator]

Hundreds of officers seized weapons, cash and drugs and arrested all the targets in one coordinated sweep.

[Scott Payne]

Well, that was it. That was the end of the outlaw case.

[Narrator]

How'd that make you feel?

[Scott Payne]

I've talked about it so much now that, you know, and time has passed, but, I mean, you know, that was a nostalgic, euphoric, I don't know, pick one. It's. I mean, that was the longest at that point. Longest deep undercover I'd done. It's probably the closest bonds I'd ever made.

[Narrator]

In the end, Operation roadkill took down 15 outlaw members and associates. They all pleaded out. Joe Dogs and clothesline got 12 and a half years. Scotty T got seven. Scott never saw any of them again, but it wouldn't be long before he was back on another case. Next time on Agent Palehorse.

[Scott Payne]

I said, oh, so we're gonna have a cross burning? And he's like, now, now, Scott. It's not a cross burning. That'd be sacrilegious. It's across lighting. FBI. FBI. Don't move. Get on the car. Be cool. Be cool.

[Narrator]

This series was written and produced by me, Michelle shepherd, senior producer Ashley Mack and producer Eunice Kim. Mixing and sound design by Evan Kelly. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Our intern was Rachel Degasperos. Special thanks to Andrew Friesen, the CBC Reference Library and Oralation Studios, Chris Oak and Cecil Fernandez are our executive producers. Tanya Springer is the senior manager, and Arif Noorani is the director of CBC Podcasts. This series was produced alongside a book I wrote with Scott, codename How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. You can catch up with season one of White Hot Hate wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're enjoying this series and want to help new listeners discover the show, please take some time to give us a rating and review on whichever is your chosen app. It really helps.

[Scott Payne]

For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.