Season 2, Episode 6: Get Behind Me, Satan

Summary

Podcast Summary: White Hot Hate – Season 2, Episode 6: "Get Behind Me, Satan"

Introduction

In the gripping sixth episode of the second season of White Hot Hate, titled "Get Behind Me, Satan," CBC host Michelle Shephard delves deeper into the harrowing experiences of FBI undercover agent Scott Payne, also known by his codename "Pale Horse." This episode offers an unvarnished perspective of Payne's 28-year career infiltrating some of the most dangerous extremist groups, including outlaw biker gangs, drug cartels, and international neo-Nazi networks intent on sparking a race war.

Episode Overview

The episode primarily focuses on a pivotal case Payne handled—dubbed the "base case"—where his undercover work led to the dismantling of a highly organized white supremacist cell in Georgia. Through firsthand accounts and detailed narratives, Payne recounts the intense and often perilous missions he undertook to prevent acts of mass violence and domestic terrorism.

Key Discussions and Insights

1. Infiltrating the Hate Camp

   Payne describes receiving a chilling text message from Luke Lane, the 20-year-old leader of the cell, outlining preparations for a weekend camping trip with specific instructions for weapons and survival gear (04:20). This "hate camp" was a training ground for members to prepare for what they believed would be a societal collapse—a scenario they termed the "boogaloo."

   Scott Payne ([03:48] 03:48): "All right, here we go. Tent. If you want a personal tent with privacy and don't want to cuddle with the bros in the big tent..."

2. The Goat Sacrifice Ritual

   One of the most harrowing moments Payne recounts is witnessing a pagan ritual involving the sacrifice of a goat, intended to invoke the Norse God Odin as part of their preparations for cleansing society of non-whites and Jews. Payne details the emotional turmoil and ethical dilemmas he faced during this operation (09:18).

   Scott Payne ([12:27] 12:27): "I'm just observing. That's all I'm doing. I'm just sitting back going, all right, I'm paying attention to everything that's going on."

3. Planning of Assassinations

   The base case involved meticulous planning to assassinate an anti-fascist couple and later, Patrick Matthews—a Canadian army reservist whose life had been ruined after being outed as a member of the base. Payne explains how he used his undercover status to gain the trust of the group while gathering incriminating evidence (17:58).

   Scott Payne ([20:08] 20:08): "He's out of the guard, they came and got his guns... his idea is to be part of a ghost team that just goes around with other ghosts and kills lefties."

4. Evidentiary Maneuvers and Arrests

   Payne narrates the strategic moves he made to delay the assassination plot, ultimately leading to the FBI executing coordinated raids that resulted in the arrests of key members without Payne having to testify in court. This successful operation effectively dismantled the cell and prevented potential mass casualties (33:38).

   Scott Payne ([31:04] 31:04): "And I'm sure I said it out loud too, because that's me. I'm a verbal guy..."

5. Reflections on Retirement and Ongoing Threats

   Post-retirement, Payne reflects on his career and the evolving nature of white supremacist movements. He emphasizes the importance of education and dialogue in combating hate, drawing from his extensive experience to educate both law enforcement and the public (44:39).

   Scott Payne ([44:39] 44:39): "Get out there and talk about it... knowledge is power. Just get out there, man. Talk."

Notable Quotes with Attributions

• Michelle Shephard ([00:51] 00:51): "I knew you were gonna get to that."

• Scott Payne ([03:13] 03:13): "I've been doing undercover work since 1996. I have never had to burn bibles. I have never had to burn an American flag..."

• Michelle Shephard ([10:29] 10:29): "Scott's night doesn't end there. The others are tripping on acid, drinking and eating Gar, who had been crudely prepped and roasted on the fire."

• Scott Payne ([31:04] 31:04): "And I'm sure I said it out loud too, because that's me. I'm a verbal guy, but I. I know, right? Shocker."

• Michelle Shephard ([41:56] 41:56): "But here's what I would say to any leader, especially if you're the leader of the United States. Once, could you deescalate something?"

Conclusions and Takeaways

"Get Behind Me, Satan" serves as a profound exploration of the complexities and moral ambiguities faced by undercover agents like Scott Payne. The episode highlights the relentless nature of hate groups and the sophisticated methods they employ to further their agendas. Payne's experiences underscore the critical role of law enforcement in neutralizing such threats and the personal sacrifices involved in maintaining national security.

Moreover, Payne's reflections post-retirement shed light on the enduring challenges posed by extremist ideologies and the necessity for continued vigilance, education, and community engagement to prevent the resurgence of hate-fueled movements.

Final Thoughts

This episode not only provides a thrilling narrative of undercover operations but also invites listeners to ponder the broader societal issues that foster extremist ideologies. By sharing his frontline experiences, Scott Payne contributes invaluable insights into the ongoing struggle against hate groups, emphasizing that the fight for a more tolerant and peaceful society is far from over.

---

Note: Time stamps in square brackets correspond to the moments in the transcript where the quoted content is located.

Transcript

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

Well, hey, look at us. You listen to Front Burner. I listen to Front Burner. We have something in common. My name is El Amin Abdul Mahmoud. And look, we get to hear Jamie and the Front Burner team keep us on top of the big news stories that matter. I am someone who looks to culture to make sense of the world. The TV shows and books and music and movies that meet the moment. That's the kind of stuff I talk about every day on the podcast I host. It's called Commotion. And if you want to hear smart, funny people talk about what the culture we consume says about us right now, follow Commotion wherever you get your podcasts.

[Michelle Shepherd]

This is a CBC podcast. The following episode contains strong language, graphic descriptions of animal abuse and racist violence. Please take care when listening. Okay, so tell me the line that you. I've heard you say many times.

[Scott Payne]

I knew you're gonna get. Yeah, I knew you were gonna get to that.

[Michelle Shepherd]

It's unpredictable.

[Scott Payne]

So do you want me to say.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Should I say it for you? 25 years, I never had to burn Bibles. Set five to American flagship. Okay.

[Scott Payne]

Do I sound that country?

[Michelle Shepherd]

I'm still working on my accent.

[Scott Payne]

Okay. All right.

[Michelle Shepherd]

This may be a weird time to confess something, but I don't trust cops very much. I blame it, in part on a career of being suspicious of authority, being lied to or shut down when trying to report. I was once part of a team at the Toronto Star that was sued by the Toronto police union for $2.6 billion. They claimed a series we published that showed racial bias among the police defamed the entire police force. We won the suit with costs. And then after 9 11, I covered many, many cases of young Muslim men who were profiled and had their lives ruined. Many of those cases involved undercover police operatives, and their conduct smacked of entrapment. It's well reported that the FBI did not have a great reputation for undercover investigations. But it wasn't just post 911 cases. There are recent examples, too. In October 2020, the FBI announced it had foiled a plan to kidnap and possibly assassinate Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan state governor. It was a massive sting operation that involved two undercover FBI agents and as many as a dozen informants. But the case started to unravel when they got to court with allegations of FBI entrapment. In the end, four of the 14 men pleaded guilty and another five were convicted. But the rest were acquitted. So when I first met Scott and he began telling me all his stories, I came at it with a healthy dose of skepticism. Especially when it came to the base case. I knew the details from our research in the first season, but his role had never been examined publicly. What influence did Scott have over the group? And what made this case different from anything he'd done before? I'm Michelle Shepherd.

[Scott Payne]

I've been doing undercover work since 1996. I have never had to burn bibles, I have never had to burn an American flag, and I damn sure was never with a group of people that stole a goat, sacrificed it at a pagan ritual and drank its blood. And I did all that shit in about three days with these guys.

[Michelle Shepherd]

And from cbc, this is season two of White Hot Hate. Agent Pale Horse, Episode six, Get Behind Me, Satan.

[Scott Payne]

All right, here we go. Tent. If you want a personal tent with privacy and don't want to cuddle with the bros in the big tent. Rifle and sidearm ammo. At least 600 rounds for rifle to participate, but 1200 rounds are recommended just in case. At least 200 rounds for a sidearm to participate, but 400 rounds are recommended. Bring your own food and drinks or have enough money to buy what you need. Bring plenty of water. None will be provided.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott, AKA Palehorse, received this text in the lead up to Halloween 2019. It listed what he needed to pack for an upcoming camping trip with members of the base. And it was sent by 20 year old Luke Lane, who lived with his father Tom on a vast rural property about two hours from Atlanta, Georgia.

[Scott Payne]

Five changes of clothing, good quality boots, preferably black.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Despite his youth, Luke had become the leader of one of the base's most successful cells, mostly because they held a lot of in person training. They were prepping for their boogaloo when they believe a civil war will cause society to collapse and their white power movement can take control. Members from around the country would descend on his family's land and spend days learning to shoot, fight, and survive in the wilderness.

[Scott Payne]

Luke was like, you know, I forget how he worded it, but basically you need to be able to use the bathroom because him and his dad's place was on a septic tank. And he said, I can't have, you know, 15, 20 guys going up there flushing the toilet every day.

[Michelle Shepherd]

He was like, you better know how to in the woods.

[Scott Payne]

Something like that. Yeah, I mean, bring something. Yeah, I mean, you know, whether you've got your own, like portable bucket with a lid or whatever. And I called Luke and I'm like, hey, do you guys have Porta John Reynolds down there? Because here I am an older guy, I actually have a job. I Got a job, you know, I got money. Whereas a lot of these kids are still living at their parents house. They don't even have a car, but they've got an arsenal. And I ended up getting one. And, you know, he bragged. He's like, hey, everybody think, you know, Pale Horse. He basically got us a shitter.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Did they ever try and bring that up in court as like, providing material support to terrorism?

[Scott Payne]

They call it what they want. I'm like, hey, I need a bathroom. That's what I was saying. I'm like.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Accelerationist groups like the base had a nickname for these training events. They call them hate camps. So walk us through going to that hate camp. Like, what you think's gonna be there, who you see that first cold night.

[Scott Payne]

So I knew that I was gonna be meeting Big Siege Dima I'd never met face to face.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott knew some of them only by their aliases. It would take time to figure out the real identities of all the members.

[Scott Payne]

Would have been Eisen punished, Snake can't go back. Apocryphon, Zoomnat and Pestilence. Helter Skelter and Luke.

[Michelle Shepherd]

What was the skill level like for these guys?

[Scott Payne]

Oh, some were atrocious, some were, oh, my goodness.

[Michelle Shepherd]

I'm not sure what's scarier, if they're good or bad with weapons. Probably good.

[Scott Payne]

You know, like one of them. He was skin and bones. Here's a guy who hasn't slept in well over 24 hours. He worked third shift, drove straight from Austin, Texas, except for this black moment. He fell asleep somewhere in Alabama and rear ended somebody on Adderall. And you're trying to watch this guy hold a weapon and you're like, oh, my goodness, man. Not. Not good.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott has to tread carefully. He doesn't want to blow his cover, for one thing. But this is also where accusations of entrapment can come up later. So he has to act innocent and eager to learn. Not like a guy who gets paid to train others to shoot.

[Scott Payne]

I chose not to come in as like, Mr. Instructor because it's kind of a liability thing. You gotta remember, in the FBI, we got a bunch of attorneys sitting back at headquarters and they're like, well, if you go in there and you coach this person and you actually help them get better at their shooting, and they go shoot somebody, well, that. You definitely don't want to do that, right? I don't want to help them get better if they're planning on doing illegal, nefarious things to innocent people.

[Michelle Shepherd]

After a long day, he retires to his truck to rest his bones, which are about twice as old as those of the other members.

[Scott Payne]

I remember walking back to my truck and like I couldn't even open the door, it was solid ice. And I looked at the back of the truck, then I went, I'm not sleeping in that damn. Because I had a sleeping bag. But it was not set up for that, that cold. So I cranked up my truck and I slept in the truck with a heat on. And the next thing I know my window is pounding, you know, hey, hey, pale horse, pale horse, wake up, wake up. You're not going to believe this. You're not going to believe this. You know the goat? Yeah, we got it.

[Michelle Shepherd]

What you're about to hear next may sound familiar. We briefly covered this hate camp in season one of White Hot Hate. But the details were secondhand, drawn only from court documents and media reports. Scott was right there in the thick of it.

[Scott Payne]

And I'm like, oh, well, let me get up. I walk out and I see that several of the members had. They stole a goat. I think it was a guy had like three goats or rams. I think the difference is the size. I mean it had horns and stuff, but they stole the goat. And I wake up to see the goat in the back of can't go back's truck crapping all over the place. And that's, that's when I think Dima said, he's like, man, this, this, this goat's shitting everywhere. And I'm like, well, I would be too if a bunch of big dudes dressed in flecktar and camo and balaclavas with machine guns just jerked my ass out of the backyard and threw me in a truck. Yeah, I'd be crapping all over the place too, you know.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott approaches Eisen, real name William Garfield Bilborough iv. He had been talking for days about performing a balat. It's a pagan ritual where you sacrifice something to the gods to ask for something in return. In the eyes of the non Christian accelerationists, a blood sacrifice to the Norse God Odin would mark the start of their so called wild hunt to clean up non whites and Jews.

[Scott Payne]

And I remember going over and saying, hey, is it bad that I feel bad for the goat? And he was like, hey, do not let that go. Hear that? We need to show this goat love. It needs to know that it's going to Odin and we don't need anybody else to have any kind of bad vibes.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott is feeling nothing but bad vibes and makes a last ditch Effort.

[Scott Payne]

And I go to my truck, and I lean into my transmitter device, and I'm talking to the team because I know they're in an abandoned building somewhere where they brought in a generator. And if I'm camping out for five days, they're camping out for five days. So I'm like, hey, I. I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go sacrifice and kill this animal. I kind of said something to the effect of, hey, if you guys can come up with any reason or you want me to stop this thing, send me a sign, you know, let me know. And I was sitting there quiet. My phone didn't ring, and I'm just waiting. Then I go, okay, well, I guess I'm going down in the woods. You feel like you're walking for a long way, and it's just getting darker and thicker and darker. I think I had, like, four tiki torches kind of set up. It's an opening in the woods, and it's right next to a creek, so actually, beautiful. By this time, Eisen had already named the goat Gar. His middle name was Garfield. His grandfather was Garfield. And we're all circled around, and Eisen's kind of leading the blot. And it wasn't a machete, but it was pretty close to a machete. It was a long blade. We're holding the goat, and he's going to sacrifice the goat by chopping his head off. And I'm kind of holding this goat from the back, and it's kind of, you know, giving this little. This little ba. You know?

[Michelle Shepherd]

And what do you think? What's going through your head at that moment?

[Scott Payne]

I'm just observing. That's all I'm doing. I'm just sitting back going, all right, I'm paying attention to everything that's going on. And, you know, so Eisen starts leaning back, and he's. He's kind of down on his knees, and he's got this big blade, and he's kind of, you know, kind of doing it slow, like, comes right to the neck. All right, I'm coming back up. I'm kind of working it, and I think somebody finally says, just do it. He rears back with everything he's got and this whang, and you hear this thud, like gunk. And it didn't even break a hair. I don't know if the blade wasn't sharp, but I do know that the back strap on that goat was tough, and it probably had a double coat. And he hits that thing as hard as he can it goes thump. And all you hear it goes bad. And then for that split second, I'm thinking, oh, this is going to get dirty. I'm like. I'm thinking, he's going to go wild. Blood's going to go everywhere. I have no idea what's going to happen.

[Michelle Shepherd]

What happens is that Eisen tries it again and again. No success.

[Scott Payne]

And then I think Pestilence says, does anybody have a gun?

[Michelle Shepherd]

No surprise. Someone did.

[Scott Payne]

So I'm back there holding this goat, and I look, and Eisen's pointing the gun at the goat, but then he just turns his head completely the other way. And I've seen Eisen shoot and handle a weapon, and he's not good at all. Then the firearms instructor and tactical instructor comes out at me, and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, I go, look at what you're shooting at. We're all in a circle, man. Don't turn your dadgum head. You don't even know what you're pointing at. And then he goes right up next to the head, and he chambers around, and pop. And then you hear the goat hit the ground. Boom. And now the goat's kicking.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott manages to convince Eisen to put the animal out of its misery with another shot. It's what Odin would want.

[Scott Payne]

Then they start cutting the neck of the goat and filling some type of glass with its blood. So now we're in this circle, and to start the shaman, we're still in our worshiping experience now. Aizen pulls out his sheets of acid, and he's breaking off pieces. And everybody's in a circle, kind of on their knees, and Aizen is going to go to each person, he's going to give you the acid, and then you drink the blood of the goat.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott says no to the psychedelics, choosing to hold the flashlight for the group. Instead, the cup makes its way around the circle until it reaches the member calling himself Big Siege.

[Scott Payne]

It wasn't too far. After he ingested the blood, he started puking. And now it's getting to me because I'm kind of one of the last guys, because I've been holding the flashlight, and I'm looking down at this cup of goat blood, fresh from the neck. Well, kind of fresh from the neck, and it's already coagulating. It's getting really clumpy. It's, like, not looking good. So I took my finger, stuck it deep into the blood, pulled it out, put it in my mouth, sucked all the blood off my finger. Then I chased it with a beer.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott's night doesn't end there. The others are tripping on acid, drinking and eating Gar, who had been crudely prepped and roasted on the fire. When Scott gets a chance to peel away, he takes it.

[Scott Payne]

So I'm walking back to my truck and I'm like, okay, here it is, Halloween. I'm freezing my living tail off. I was so cold, I backed up so close to the fire. I'd burnt the back bottom of my pants. Didn't even realize it. I've drank blood, I've ate a gamey, gamey crappy goat. And here I am wanting to knock about half the crew out. And I'm just walking back to my truck and I'm thinking, man, happy effing Halloween. You know.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

In the fall of 2001.

[Michelle Shepherd]

While Americans were still grappling with the.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

Horror of September 11, envelopes started showing up at media outlets and government buildings filled with a white lethal powder, anthrax. But what's strange is, is if you ask people now what happened with that story, almost no one knows. It's like the whole thing just disappeared. Who mailed those letters, do you know? From Wolf Entertainment, USG Audio and CBC Podcasts, this is Aftermath, the hunt for the anthrax killer, available now.

[Scott Payne]

So I get a notification in wire in our chat group for the Georgia cell, and it looked normal. Hey, is everybody available for this date for a training kind of thing?

[Michelle Shepherd]

It's about a month after the hate camp, and again, Luke Lane is planning another in person meeting. At first glance, the instructions seem to suggest that Scott and the rest of the cell are going postering. That means putting up the base propaganda around town unseen. But then Pestilence, real name Jacob Catterley.

[Scott Payne]

Asks, should I bring a certain type of weapon? And Luke said, bring the sub.

[Michelle Shepherd]

The sub meant a Kel TEC Sub 2009 millimeter semiautomatic rifle. The FBI's Atlantic case team pushed Scott to find out more.

[Scott Payne]

If that meeting date that he was calling for is something bad, we need to slow it down and stop it until we can figure out what's going on.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott calls Luke a couple times to gently squeeze out some more detail, but he won't say much on the phone, just giggles a lot. Scott says. Finally he agrees to meet in person.

[Scott Payne]

And I said, oh, well, hell, I'll be cruising through there tomorrow. And it's like one by the time I get there. 1:30, something like that. Of course he's still asleep because he stays up till like five in the morning or something, hating on the phone. But I knock and knock. I sit there for a while. He finally comes down and I say, hey, morning sunshine. Then we put our phones in the cooler and walk over to the side of the barn. And I say something to the effect of, look, you know, I'm a jokester man, you know, I love to have a good time, but when it's time to be serious, I'm fucking serious, so what are we doing? And he looks at me and he says, essentially we're gonna whack some people. And I was like, oh well that's way different than putting up posters.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Under the awning of that barn. Lane confirmed their targets to be a quote unquote high ranking antifa couple. It was Catterly who had found their names and he, Lane and Halterbrand were going to execute them together. Okay, Trying to get in their heads for a moment, like, what do you think? What was the purpose of doing these killings?

[Scott Payne]

Oh, I got, yeah, I'll tell you that. The neo Nazi movement, the white nationalist, whatever you want to call it, you got your beliefs and especially as accelerationists, you're wanting to speed up the collapse of society. But you have the left infiltrating or just exposing doxing members of the base and other members in hate groups. You know, your guy from Canada, Patrick Matthews, was a perfect example.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Matthews, if you remember, was a Canadian army reservist and outed as a base member by Canadian journalist Ryan Thorpe.

[Scott Payne]

He's out of the guard, they came and got his guns. His parents don't like him anymore, he lost his job, he comes into the United States illegally and his idea is to be part of a ghost team that just goes around with other ghosts and kills lefties. Because there was no repercussions for the left for what they're saying is, is ruining other members lives, right? And it was all about putting fear back out there as well.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Matthews was supposed to join in on the murder, but the Georgia crew had soured on him after the hate camp and all agreed he wasn't up to the task. They told Scott they thought he knew too much and would talk. So they made another plan. Kill the anti fascist couple first, then kill Matthews.

[Scott Payne]

Luke even joked and said that Pat was asking him what size of plate carries and stuff he would need. And Luke gave him his own size because he's thinking, hey, you guys keep spending money and stocking up because when we come kill you, we're going to take all your shit.

[Michelle Shepherd]

So there was an opening for Scott, if he was willing the Murders were to take place in a week. Scott's first step in buying time was to point out that this. This assassination plan was half baked.

[Scott Payne]

Dude, look at how thorough you are just to go put up posters. Look at this opsec. Look at all this stuff you do just to put up stickers. And I mean, who's going to jail for putting up stickers on a pole that's already got stickers on it? Unless you just don't want people to dox you because you're putting up hate stuff and you're telling me we're getting ready to go kill somebody in about a week, and you've never even been by the house. Why are you so haste? And he said, I'm just tired of waiting. I want to do something. And then it hit me that my legend was a site survey specialist.

[Michelle Shepherd]

That was Scott's backstory in this case, an aging white supremacist biker who lived in Texas and had a day job doing site surveys.

[Scott Payne]

And I said, man, if you can give me the location that we're going to be looking at, I said, this is what I do for a living. I go, I can go in here and I can make it look like I'm looking at residential areas or mercantile areas to buy land. And I'm going to pull up the zoning laws. I'm going to start comparing neighborhoods. I'm going to look at demographics, I'm going to look at crime, I'm looking at schools. It may take a little bit, I said, but I can do this. Have everything we need on that couple at that house.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Luke agreed it was a good idea. Scott had successfully given the Atlanta FBI team more time. Roughly a week later, Scott was back in Georgia and ready to play chauffeur. He'd be driving the base members around, checking out the couple's house and neighborhood.

[Scott Payne]

We drove out there and we looked at the front of the house, the back of the house. It was basically a looped neighborhood.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Led by Luke, the Georgia cell starts to build a more detailed plan.

[Scott Payne]

We were gonna go to a camping site, and that's why he called it the camping trip. And there everything would stay except our bodies. You know, we're gonna leave with our guns. We were gonna go to probably a pay by the hour cash motel. And then the idea was to all of us to shower, scrub, maybe even, I think mentioned like a loofah, you know, scrub all. Any kind of dead skin flakes off. So there's nothing that could drop, DNA wise. And then at that motel, we would suit up completely covered. Gloves, boots, duct tape pants. Inside the boots, duct tape sleeves to your gloves, so nothing could come out but the balaclava zone and roll out from there.

[Michelle Shepherd]

And Luke seemed prepared for every contingency.

[Scott Payne]

He even went as far as to read that a lot of people who kill somebody for the first time is such an overwhelming thing that they lose control of their bowels. So he was saying we should wear, like, adult diapers. And I'm like, I think I'm gonna be all right. I got bumped up originally. I was just gonna drive Helter Brand, Caterly and Lane.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Helter Brand, first named Michael, went by Helter Skelter online. At the time, he was 25 years old and working in IT. Jacob Catterley Pestilence was the youngest at 19. In photos I've seen, he looks so young. He was struggling to grow facial hair.

[Scott Payne]

I was going to drive them up to this house, and they were going to go in and do all the bad stuff, and I'd be out in the car. Then it became as Luke started planning more and getting deeper into it, he tells me he wants me on the inside with him because he needs somebody who has experience. You know, I never said I killed people. I just said I'd done a lot of stuff. But he told me, he said, I want somebody who's experienced on the inside. Eventually became, we're all going in Helter Brand. There was like an extended bay window off of the front of the house. So it kind of protrudes out from the house and it's got glass. So you've got a good viewpoint to watch everything. Helter Brand was going to post there, watching while Luke and myself went through the house to find the couple and kill them. And then it would be Caterly that would be pouring gas everywhere because we were going to burn the house down once we killed the couple.

[Michelle Shepherd]

After the mission was complete, they'd go back to the motel, change, destroy evidence, and return to their campsite in the woods and then disperse in total. Scott drove base members to the target's house in Georgia three times.

[Scott Payne]

And as we're driving, Helter is in the back seat, and he says, hey, if you don't mind, I'd like to pop my cherry on this one. And I'm thinking, pop your cherry? What the hell are you talking about? Because pop your cherry means something different to me. He says, I actually want to put a bullet in one of them's head.

[Michelle Shepherd]

After the last scouting trip, Scott was pretty certain the men were not going to lose their Nerve.

[Scott Payne]

One of us said, well, what if there's kids there? And Helter skelter, I remember it plain as day. He says, I don't have a problem killing common kids. So in other words, if you're a kid of a leftist, you're considered a commie. And I'm like, all right, keep talking. I mean, the recording's rolling, right?

[Michelle Shepherd]

The less Scott could say, the better. He needed evidence that they were serious about what they were going to do. In police talk, it's known as overt acts. Take Helbrand. Not only was he on tape talking about the acts he intended to commit, he'd homemade a silencer for Luke's pistol and gone out and bought Brass Catchers for an ar.

[Scott Payne]

It's a bag that attaches to the gun. So you shoot that weapon brass expels, but that bag will catch it. In other words, you're not leaving anything behind for cops to use to try to figure out who you are.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Just as the case was coming together for the Atlanta FBI office, the feds in Baltimore were telling Scott they needed him up north. They had been granted a sneak and peek warrant to bug and hide cameras in the Delaware apartment of Patrick Matthews and American Brian Lemle. So for weeks, they'd been monitoring and listening in as Matthews and Laemmle cooked up their own plot, one they also wanted Scott for.

[Scott Payne]

Okay, who am I killing?

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

All of you.

[Scott Payne]

I'll be a legion. I'll do whatever you want me to do.

[Michelle Shepherd]

That's him. On one of the COVID recordings, he'd left the crew in Georgia, drove home, then flew from Tennessee to Baltimore and met with a case team. Then he drove to Matthews and Laemmle's Delaware apartment.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

I'll give you the meat and the bones.

[Scott Payne]

Good.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

We don't have to reveal that we are national socials.

[Michelle Shepherd]

That's Matthew's voice.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

We just have to reveal to the NAS guys, or I mean, to these Patriots, etc.

[Scott Payne]

We're the good guys.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

We're on your side.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Yep, this was the plot we covered in the first season of White Hot Hate. Matthews and Laemmle were going to shoot up an upcoming pro gun rally in Richmond, Virginia, and we fucking killed the.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

Government, which is the fucking enemy. You guys can live today.

[Scott Payne]

Thereby, we are helping the acceleration.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Well, yeah, yeah, they had some complicated justifications for attacking this protest, even though there may be some sympathizers to the cause in the crowd. Basically, it boils down to creating chaos once the bullets started flying and no one knew where they were coming from. It would be bloody mayhem.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

It's beyond that. Where are becoming. We can't really live with ourselves if we don't get some, like, blood on our hands. Like, can you really say that you would just be like, how bad would you feel if you. If that just like all that went on? It was a bat. The battle of Richmond and you weren't even there. When you feel like a piece of. Yeah, I would definitely be feeling that.

[Scott Payne]

You'Re still larping back in your daddy's barn. I was able to get everything that the case team wanted to know just.

[Michelle Shepherd]

By gently, like guiding the conversation or.

[Scott Payne]

Or they would say something and I'd go, ah, I can follow on that. Yeah. I go, yeah, that's a good way in. Right there. Bam. And at one point I remember sitting there because, you know, I'm looking for where this camera could be. I kind of. I mean, I know the view that they had of the apartment because I'd seen some of the recordings from the case team and I'm pretty sure I found where the camera was at. And I went to take a sip of my drink after they were like spewing exactly what they wanted to hear. And I just remember as I took a sip, I looked right where I believed the camera to be and I winked at it because I knew the team was on the other side watching.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott left that apartment and made his way to a local Buffalo Wild Wings to meet with the FBI Baltimore team. With those new discussions on tape and the evidence they'd built over months, the feds switched into high gear, preparing for arrests just days away. Which meant Scott had to haul ass back down to Georgia and wrap up his case there. A couple days later, a sick, worn down Scott is standing in a motel bathroom. After all the prep and many practice runs with the SWAT team, the FBI were ready to begin making coordinated arrests of base members. Scott gives himself a pre showtime pep talk in the mirror.

[Scott Payne]

And, you know, it's all steamy and I'm like feeling like crap. And I wipe the mirror off and I look in there and I said, get behind me, Satan. I said, you and all your minions can jump on my coattails all you want, but I'm finishing this damn case. We're crossing the finish line. And I'm sure I said it out loud too, because that's me. I'm a verbal guy, but I. I know, right? Shocker. Yeah.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott goes to pick up Luke Lane from his house just to take him for lunch and talk more about the Upcoming assassinations. He'd made sure that Luke was going to be unarmed.

[Scott Payne]

I told him the day before, you know, let's make sure as we're getting close to this murder, these murders of this family stuff, the last thing we need to do is be driving around town and get pulled over. And even if we got the guns legally, we. We don't want to be on anybody's radar. And he's like, yeah, man, I agree. So when he hops in my truck, I'm like, hey, you clean, right? You don't have any gun on you? He said, no, no, no. I was going to pretend that something was wrong with my truck. And lo and behold, it's a sound. I don't know what happened. I didn't hit a hole, but it made a very loud noise. And I was like, did you hear that? And Luke goes, yeah. I said, if this damn truck is messed up again. I said, I swear, I just paid to get this thing fixed. So we pull left, and as we're coming to the spot, I was like, hey, you know what? I'm just going to pull over real quick. I didn't want to be suspicious, but I needed to get him close to a fence so he wouldn't be able to easily open his door and run kind of thing. So I'm kind of pulling up beside it, and while I'm around at the back of the truck, kind of acting like I'm looking at stuff, another truck pulls up, and it's actually one of the case agents. And he pulls up, and he's like, hey, man, you need any help? And as I'm walking towards him, I'm like, dude, this is. How long you had this truck? This is a nice truck. As I'm saying all that and kind of trying to draw the attention from Luke to us, I see out of my peripheral vision that Bearcat's pretty much pulling right up on that door.

[Michelle Shepherd]

A Bearcat is an enormous armored vehicle. It's something you'd expect in war zones, not in rural Georgia.

[Scott Payne]

You got a guy and the SWAT team up in the turret. Guns are all aimed in. And I dive in the back of the agent's truck going, go, go, go, go, go. And he's hauling ass out of there. And all I can hear is, you know, the commands from the SWAT team screaming.

[Michelle Shepherd]

The base case was considered a huge success. The evidence solid, Luke Lane and Patrick Matthews, along with other members of the base, were arrested in separate FBI raids in Georgia, Maryland, and Wisconsin. Everyone pleaded out, which meant Scott never had to testify in court. His role as the undercover agent wasn't challenged. Scott stayed on at the FBI a little longer before retirement, but that was his last big case before he handed in the badge.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

Yeah, I've seen him at that point.

[Michelle Shepherd]

How do you think he's handling retirement?

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

There's no doubt he misses doing what he's done.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Like most of those who know Scott, his old buddy Joe Ferris wondered what life would look like for him once he was no longer the undercover that was so much a part of who Scott was.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

Cuz Scott, he needs something to do. He's not going to sit around and.

[Scott Payne]

You know, just sip coffee on the back porch.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Well, I made the mistake of thinking, oh great, now he's retired. Now we can just be the exact couple I've always dreamed of us to be. Scott's wife. I have since discovered that my husband is a overachiever. And it had nothing to do with his job. It's him. If he could choose, sit on the couch and watch a movie or go out and do something with his life, I mean, it's always the latter.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

When you think about, and I can share this with you. When you think about him or any other color doing that kind of work, can you imagine the high that they're on what they're doing? People live for that. So he has to live for that because that's his personality, that's why he's successful.

[Michelle Shepherd]

And Higgy, who was on the cover team for the Outlaws case.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

But when that all comes to an end, what else is there for him as a police officer, as an FBI agent, He's got to go find something else to satisfy that. Well, you know what I mean.

[Michelle Shepherd]

I worry about that in retirement. What is there now after a life that's been sort of so very exciting.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

But he, from what I understand, he's very active. So he's doing things, he's teaching, he's talking to people. I got a call from a friend of mine, a trooper met him in another state at a gang conference. So he's out there, he's talking to people. So. And he's. And he's actually educating people because what he went through. If you want to be an undercover officer, you should pay attention to what happened to him. It happens.

[Scott Payne]

How you doing? I'm Scott Payne. Scott Payne, how you doing?

[Michelle Shepherd]

A year after his retirement in 2022, Scott and I went to Pittsburgh for a conference titled Eradicate Hate. Saw you come in my room, by the way, really fast.

[Scott Payne]

Sometimes I just look normal. Were they like Suspects. So it would come out even in the main channel, the main wire chat room.

[Michelle Shepherd]

You know, Scott was always easy to find in the crowd. Aside from physically towering over other attendees, he had a little orbit of fans circling around him. I've been to a lot of national security conferences over the years, and you start to see familiar faces. Academics, lawyers, policy wonks, journalists, or formers, which is the nickname for reformed extremists who now work to help rehabilitate others. But Scott's attendance felt unique. When I interviewed him on the main stage, the room was packed.

[Scott Payne]

Thank you.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Scott. Maybe we could start first with your most recent case, big case, which was the base. How was that different from the other cases that you had over the past two decades?

[Scott Payne]

So I just. I told somebody backstage, told him the line, and I said, man, I've been undercover since 1996, working all kinds of stuff. I said, I have never had to burn bibles. I have never had to burn American flags.

[Michelle Shepherd]

You know, the line. Over the next hour, in front of about a thousand conference goers, I took Scott through the beats of the base case and his career. We ended with a bit of what now? So obviously, you know, white supremacy has been around for years and years and years and decades, but the accelerationist movement is new. And that's. That's what you think by the time you had retired?

[Scott Payne]

Yep. Most close to it. The last year before I retired, I had a very, very well placed source that had been in the movements forever and ever. He said that two years prior to that, accelerationists were fringe. He said at the time when we were getting towards the end of my career, he said, I guarantee you that 90% of the white nationalists that are on these dark web platforms or accelerationists.

[Michelle Shepherd]

And who is vulnerable to this ideology, it's always dangerous to give a checklist of root causes for future terrorists. But Scott said members of the base had a few commonalities.

[Scott Payne]

The thing that I saw that was kind of like a common bond was broken. Home, need to belong, bullied and no partners. Girlfriend, boyfriend, whichever way you persuade, they had no partners. So for me, 28 years in law enforcement, it all starts at home, in my opinion. And nobody's proven me wrong yet. If you can, please do. But for me, it all starts at home.

[Michelle Shepherd]

At the end, he gets a standing ovation. Thank you very much, Scott, for doing that.

[Scott Payne]

Thank you. And thank you all for what you're doing. Thank you.

[Michelle Shepherd]

My turn.

[Scott Payne]

Buena. Oh, I'm still on. Hey, you can do anything you want, Scott.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

I'm not going to tell you what to do.

[Scott Payne]

Oh, please.

[Michelle Shepherd]

There's one potential root cause we didn't talk about at the conference. Politics. It's one of the areas we agree to disagree. But sometimes with a base case, it felt like the elephant in the room. So on our last podcast interview, we dipped our toe in. We actually pulled some of the recruiting tapes, you know. You know, one of the ones that were recorded.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah.

[Michelle Shepherd]

And it's like for a lot of those guys who ended up joining the base, Trump was a bit of a gateway. I'm not doing, like, Republicans versus Democrats, but, I mean, the hate that he was preaching. I can actually play you a couple of these just to remind you, I.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

Voted for Donald Trump and shit. And that's kind of where it started. And then I started kind of caring more about. I mean, like, it didn't really matter about conservative values to me anymore. It was more about, like, white values and stuff. That was actually what really mattered, it seemed like, to me.

[Scott Payne]

Yeah. So I go by Helter Skelter or John and have been in the white nationalist mindset, I would say, since 2015.

[El Amin Abdul Mahmoud]

And got turned on to, you know.

[Scott Payne]

Kind of the Trump train, I guess you would say. I could tell you from inferring a lot of these groups. Yeah. A lot of them were like, man, Trump's our guy. Trump's our guy. And then about halfway through, they're like, this is bullshit. He opened our eyes. But this, that and the other, the white supremacists, it didn't take them long to jump off of that. But here's what I would say to any leader, especially if you're the leader of the United States. Once, could you deescalate something? Just once, could you defuse something? Just once.

[Michelle Shepherd]

You said, we can't cast judgment. And I'm like, yeah, we can. I mean, this is being like, the hate is being sanctioned by the most powerful people in politics.

[Scott Payne]

You can. I'm just saying I don't want to. Me personally, it's almost like sometimes I don't think they know, and I really don't. I believe that they don't know because they haven't been in these telegram groups, these wire groups, these 4chan, 8chan, 12chan, whatever the heck they got now, and just see what one thing like that sparks for thousands upon thousands of anti. I mean, just hate, you know, and they're riding on it.

[Michelle Shepherd]

I disagree. I think they know exactly that by mainstreaming that, that's getting votes. I mean, that's the populist playbook.

[Scott Payne]

Right. That's a good counter. And I, and I don't have a rebuttal. I don't, I don't disagree.

[Michelle Shepherd]

Doesn't it make it hard for you to vote?

[Scott Payne]

You gonna get you trying to divide viewers or listeners on me? You know what? You know what? I've told you. I was law enforcement for 28 years. I'm pro military. Those industries don't do too well under certain regimes, I think for a lot of people.

[Michelle Shepherd]

That conversation was before the election, before Trump pardoned 1500 January 6th rioters, including the leaders of far right militant groups, and before he nominated loyalist Kash Patel as the new head of the FBI. Patel once referred to law enforcement officials who investigated Trump as criminal gangsters. And he called the mainstream media the most powerful enemy the United States has ever seen. There's been a lot of celebratory chatter online as far right militant movements regroup and recruit. And the base, it sounds like it's building again. On the day of Trump's inauguration, the group began a bitcoin fundraising campaign. Scott and I continue to talk all the time and will often still agree to disagree. But he says he feels like many of us right now trying to absorb the fire hose of news. And he tells me he's glad he's no longer on the inside. And by that he means both the FBI and as an undercover trying to infiltrate these groups. So what now? His plan is to get out there and to talk about where he's been, not necessarily what comes next. He's teaching both to law enforcement and the public using his experiences, his stories and what he learned to try to stop the cycle of crime and hate.

[Scott Payne]

Get out there and talk about it, you know what I mean? Especially in your historical hate groups, you know, like the Klan and stuff like that. I've just found it's just a lack of education, a lot of time. I mean, I'm speaking for myself, growing up in the Southeast and seeing things and being a victim of some things that could have easily turned me to be this hateful person to certain people based on their color or their dress or however they acted and talked. But the more educated I got, the knowledge is power. It's just that old saying, knowledge is power. Just get out there, man. Talk.

[Michelle Shepherd]

This series was written and produced by me, Michelle shepherd, senior producer, Ashley Mack, and our producer, Eunice Kim. Mixing and sound design by Evan Kelly. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Our intern was Rachel degasperis. Our podcast art was designed by Good Tape Studio. Amanda Cox is our cross promo producer. Our video producers are Evan Agard, Tamina Aziz, and John Lee. Special thanks to Andrew Friesen, David Downey, the CBC Reference Library and and Oralation Studios. Executive producers are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak, Tanya Springer is the senior manager, Arif Narrani is the director, and Leslie Merklinger is the Executive Director of CBC Podcasts. This series was produced alongside a book I wrote with Scott, codename Pale How I Went Undercover to Expose America's Nazis. You can catch up with season one of White Hot Hate wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're enjoying this series and want to help new listeners discover the show, please take some time to give us a rating and review on whichever is your chosen app. It really helps.

[Scott Payne]

For more CBC Podcasts, go to CBC CA Podcasts.