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Podcast Listener / Interjector (24:53)

Can I just let it go?

Katie Charlwood (24:54)

I wish I would stop thinking so much.

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Katie Charlwood (25:28)

So we have a group of people to talk about today. The primary agent of the devil. According to Thomas Potts, the primary source of this. Oh, that man was so excited to talk about this witch trial. But yes. So according to him, the 80 something year old Elizabeth Southerns, also known as Dam Dyke, the primary agent of the devil. So Demdike had lived in the Pendle Forest and practiced witchcraft for over 50 years. And worse still, allegedly raised her children and grandchildren in the ways of witchcraft. Being a major witch, anyone who wronged her, crossed her in any way, even a minor infraction, they would suffer her wrath. So you have Elizabeth Southern's Dem Dyke, her daughter Elizabeth Device, and then Dem Dyke's grandchildren, James and Alison Device. Then we've got Alice Nutter. Any fan of Good Omens will have like heard that name. Might sound familiar. So in Good Omens she's called Agnes Nuttall. She's the inspiration for the character. Oh, probably because they heard the name once and went, huh, that sounds like a good un. Then we have Ann Whittle, also known as Chattix. There's going to be nicknames in this, I should warn you. So Ann Whittle, her daughter, Ann Redfern. Then you've got Catherine Hewitt, Janet Preston, Alice Grey, Jane Bullcock and Jane's son John. So you've got this group of people and how, how did all of them become accused of witchcraft? Well, I'm glad you asked because I'll tell you, it all starts in March of 1612 and Alice in Device is travelling along the road near Colne in Lancashire where she comes across a peddler called John Law. John Law's a Peddler, he peddles goods. And so she asks him for some pens. Now, pens are used for a bunch of reasons for haberdashery, you know, sewing reasons, but also they're used in folklore and magic and herbology and whatnot. So I said ask. She begged. She was begging for pins. Because Alison was poor. She was like part of a beggar family. Like, even in this community of poverty, Alison is considered poor poor. So charity is refused. And it is claimed that Alison curses him not long after, as in like days after, John Law suffers a stroke and his son reported to the local magistrate, Noel, that his father had been inflicted by a witch's cuss. The stroke didn't kill John Law, but it did leave him partially paralyzed. Roger Noe, the aforementioned magistrate, questions Alison Device, her mother, Elizabeth Device, and her Brother James, on 30 March 1612. So, yeah, the Devizes are a beggar family. They are the poorest of the poor. Like that is. Bear in mind, this is our context. And Alison, she confesses totally, not under torture of duress, that she enlisted the devil's help in cursing John Law after he accused her of stealing. So, like, technically, during this time period, like, torture wasn't permitted. Like, you're not supposed to torture people. Like, legally, it's not meant to be a thing, just it's not meant to. Okay. James, who was also questioned, totally not under torture of duress, confirmed the story. Elizabeth Device, also in a completely safe and not coerced confession, hinted that her mother, Demdike, was in league with the devil. And when questioned, Alison accused Ann Whittle of witchcraft, Chattox, as she was known, her family had a long standing feud with the Devices clan. So you've got these two beggar families and they're rivals. They do not like each other. Right. And now one of them has accused the other of witchcraft. Alison claimed that her dad had enlisted Chattick's witchcraft for some oatmeal for protection. But being actual dark pua, he couldn't pay and Chattix cursed him to death. I feel like I should point out that there is no official legal document that show the circumstances or methods used to acquire Alison's confessions. Like that. That doesn't exist. Weird. Alison would go on to confess that her grandmother Demdike would make her bring a devil when she was out begging to make the begging, like, easier or something, I guess. Demdike told her to allow the familiar to feed off of her blood and it would grant her gifts. She also mentioned that John Nutter had asked Demdike to cure his sick cow but instead she bewitched the cow to death. Something I forgot to mention earlier actually about Demdike Elizabeth Sutherns, the 80 something year old matriarchal forest witch. She was blind. Now it's probably cataracts because like a lot of the time when they describe, you know, older people losing their vision, especially old timey, they're like, they've got cloudy eyes. Yeah, that sounds like cataracts. So Alison just cannot stop, she really cannot stop talking about witchy stuff. She talks about an incident with Richard Baldwin in the Pendle Woods. Baldwin had a disagreement with Demdike two years before and had forbidden Alison to enter his land. And so Demdike, she leaves the house for an hour or so like late at night and the very next day Robert Baldwin's daughter had fallen ill and was sick for a whole year and then died which is totally the result of a witchy curse. Then we have the Butta incident. Demdike was in bed resting because she's an 80 something year old blind woman living in a forest. There's no butter in the house. Like Alison goes begging for milk and she brings it back and she leaves it at her granny's house and she goes away for half an hour and when she comes back she finds butter in the milk. Now there's the same volume of milk but suddenly there was butter in it. Magic. Alison accused so many people in her family like and others of witchcraft. She accuses Demdike, her mum, Elizabeth Device, her brother James, Anne Whittle, Chattox, her daughter Anne Redfern and so on. Now Alison as well, like at the time of this, she's 18, 19, so she's young, right? This is a teenager. And these again these bigger families like the Whittles and the Demdikes, they've been feuding for years like it's poverty versus poverty. And on the 2nd of April, Demdike, Chattox and Ann Redfern, they are all interrogated by Roger Nowell. Both Chattox and Demdike confess to a pact with the devil. But Ann Redfern didn't. That didn't stop Demdike from accusing her of doing witchy stuff. Then some other witness made a connection between Ann and a man's mysterious death and the four women were sent to Lancaster jail to await trial. Basically most trials were held during assizes, so which is like traveling judges going around the country. So there was often a wee bit of time between arrest and Trial. And these things were common practice, the arrest, the trial. And it's usually over pretty swiftly once the assize is occurring. But then Good Friday happened. On 10 April 1612, Good Friday, there is a gathering at Melkin Tower, which is like actually that's the name of Demdike's house and Melken actually is an old word for like dirty. So was it even a tower? Whoms to say? Like, it's just like a ramshackle building. And so friends, they come over from the border of Yorkshire and they eat a meal of stolen mutton. Now Good Friday for like, any Catholics listening will know this. So. And people probably know this anyway. Like it's just a typical Catholic thing. It's a day of fasting and you're not supposed to eat, let alone eat meat. Like now it's more like don't eat meat. But back then it was like don't eat anything. So James Devise, he has allegedly stolen an old sheep to eat. And they allegedly plan which gets like wilder and wilder, according to testimony of Janet Device, that there is this talk of getting the women out of the jail for breaking them out of the jail. And it's like they're going to do it with magic and it's going to be like a whole thing. So this meeting on Good Friday in a Protestant like ruling class, right, it is viewed with suspicion. Clearly it is a meeting of a coven, right on Good Friday. So on the 27th of April, Roger Nowell and Nicholas Bannister conduct an investigation to uncover the secrets of the Melkin meeting, which leads to eight more accusations of witchcraft. So you've got Elizabeth Device, James Device, John Bulcock, Jane Bulcock, Alice Nutter, Catherine Hewitt, Alice Grey and Janet Preston. Now Janet Preston, like she's from Gisborne, so she's from Yorkshire, or Gisborne was in Yorkshire at the time. And so yes, to my American listeners, shiels are a real thing. It's all over England and Scotland. I'm not sure what Welsh has, Welsh has, what Wales has. I'd have to check. So she's from Yorkshire and so she is to be tried the Yorkshire assizes. So she's sent to Yorkshire and the rest was sent to Lancaster Jail. And to add insult to injury, all of them are in the same cell. Devises, Whittles, Nuttles and all like all of them. Elizabeth Southern, the blind old lady, confesses that 20 years prior she encountered a boy in a half black, half brown coat, except there was no boy, but a spirit named Tib, there are some who call me Tib, who offered her anything she wanted in exchange for her soul. And she agrees to this deal, but somehow kept living in abject poverty. And the spirit would appear at twilight every like five or six years and go, I'm a killer, Bella. I regret nothing. Sorry. No. He would try to make another deal and she would decline. So she never actually asked for anything like throughout this period. Then one year he shows up as a dog and tries to draw blood from her as she slept with her grandchild on her lap. And she's like half asleep and is praying to protect the child. But she couldn't pray for herself. Like she was like fighting it, but she just couldn't do it. Then the dog disappeared and she felt mad for about eight weeks. Like, I'm sorry, did you maybe eat a mushroom that you shouldn't have? You know, maybe you had an illness or other things happen. Like she would have been in Hall 60s at this point. Right? So like sidebar, actually. What if many of like the insanity slash witchcraft accusations like from history were just menopause related? Like, oh, she's burning hot and yet she's not dying of this fever and she's acting irrational. Yeah, because her hormones are all in flux, like, mmm. Anyway, Demdike also admitted under torture that she had cussed Baldwin. Right. So the previous Christmas, Demdike's daughter Elizabeth had helped out the Baldwins family at the mill. Naturally she wanted to be compensated for it being dirt poor and all. And she's being led, Demdike is by her granddaughter now because remember, Demdike is blind and she meets Richard Baldwin like on the road, like on the way to his like family farm. And he tells her to get off his land and calls her family whores and witches, which is bad enough, but he threatens to bun one and hang the other. So elderly blind lady and teenage girl. So he threatens an old lady and her granddaughter. And so she cursed him. The boy dog spirit, Tib appeared and she, in anger, called Tib to take revenge on Richard Baldwin and his family. Tib agreed and she never saw the spirit again. The foster face trail was Janet Press.

Trusted House Sitters Advertiser (41:44)

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Podcast Listener / Interjector (42:14)

Can't I just let it go?

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Katie Charlwood (42:45)

At the Yorkshire Assizes On 27 June 1612, the judges overseeing the trial were Sir James Altham and Sir Edward Bromley. Janet Preston pleaded not guilty to charges of using witchcraft to murder Thomas Lister of Westby Hall, a wealthy local landowner. So Janet had previously been acquitted of infanticide through witchcraft the previous year, like, so in 1611 she's accused of like, witching a child to death. And then in 1612 she's accused of witching Thomas Leicester to death. Now it really feels like someone had it out for Janet. The damning piece of evidence against Janet was that Thomas Lister's corpse bled when she touched it. So she's convicted by quantation. So cruentation. For about 700 years, people thought corpses could solve their own murders. I've said it before and I've said it again. That just is far too long. It's far too long. Okay, from the 12th to the 19th century, like, people believed in cruentation, like the belief that a dead body would bleed in the presence of their killer. And yes, this was an official method used in a court of law. Janet Preston was found guilty and sentenced to death by hanging. And Janet Preston, the Gisborne witch, was executed on 29 July at Knavesmere, which for the record is now the current location for the York racecourse. The next trials were held on the 18th and 19th of August in 1612 at Lancaster Castle. Roger Nowell, the magistrate, he was the prosecutor and the trial was presided over by the judges Altham and Bromley. Again, again, Roger Noel had collected the relevant testimonies and confessions of the Pendle witches. And what's unusual about this trial is that the material witness, if you will, the testimony that damned so many people was that of a nine year old child. Now, typically, and like criminal courts of any kind, like even back then, like this was not a done thing. You did not bring a child into court, you did not question them, it was not something you did. But as in King James's book Demonology, he said, you know, sometimes you have to like, colour Outside the lines. Like, there are exceptions to the rule and this was the exception. Elizabeth Devise's nine year old daughter, Janet Device, testified against her widowed mother, members of her own family and the attendees of the Milkin Tower meeting. When the nine year old girl was called, her mother like, just starts shouting at her. Like, she's just trying to make sure the child doesn't speak. Like, unsurprisingly, the young girl is scared and she starts crying and tells the judge that she couldn't speak with her mother there. And the more Janet tries to talk, the more her mother like shrieks and screams at her. I mean, and she's like freaking out. And she is removed from the court. The judge is like, no, out you go. The nine year old child was then placed on top of a table in front of the entire court. They put her on a table because she's so small, right? This is a small, probably malnourished child who, who is afraid and is like kids. Kids say things, right? They're not always true. They are, you know, fueled by, you know, folklore and history and the adults around them. And so they absorb things in a way which makes sense to them, like kid logic, but not to others. They're also manipulated and coached and all that jazz. And the worry could be like her mother is screaming. Is it because she's worried her daughter is going to say something damning? Like, had she made a joke about something at one point? Is she genuinely angry at her child or is she fearing for her daughter's life? We don't know. We don't know why, but here we are. So again, this nine year old child, she's up on a table in front of an entire court of people and she testifies that her mother is a witch with a spirit called ball that looks like a dog. Janet went on to say that her mother asked the dog spirit to kill a man, a rich man known as Swire John Robinson of Barlow. The next year, her mother called upon bowl to kill James Robinson of Barlow, who was also known as Swire like, and three weeks later, he's dead. Jenna then starts naming people like 20 or so that were at Milken Tower. Her mother had told her that they were a meeting of witches and only two that were there, like she noticed, were men. Her mother told her that they had come to name Jennet's sisters, Allison's familiar. And they had a feast of bacon, beef and roasted mutton. They had a feast. These incredibly poor people had beef and bacon and mutton. Okay. James, her older Brother had stolen an old sheep from Christopher Swiles of Barlow. So many Swiles, so many Barlows. He'd stolen it the night before. And this does not explain how the impoverished group also had bacon and beef. Jennet was able to point out and name six of the witches present at the Melkin meeting on Good Friday. Her uncle Christopher Howgate of Pendle and his wife, Elizabeth. Christopher Jacks and his wife from Tholnigh Home, Hugh Hargreaves from Pendle, and I kid you not, Dick Miles from Rough Lee. If I write a book that's fiction, I'm having a character called Dick Miles, because I can. Finally, Janet informs the court that her mother, Elizabeth, taught her two One to obtain drinks and the other to heal those who are bewitched. She taught me how to get drinks, which is flutter your eyelashes at a mad. Sorry. Oh, this is problematic. Like a child who's probably been coached and manipulated. Like, I have issues and feelings about this. Little Janet accused her brother James of practicing witchcraft for three years. And he had a black dog named Dandy, who would, on James's behalf, kill an elderly woman, Mistress Townley of Carr. For why? Whom's to say? So, Janet, she visited Mistress Towneley at Car hall and saw that the very old lady looked sick. And naturally she assumed it was the work of James and Dandy. Here's the thing. Like during the trial, James Device, he's described as a poor, decrepit boy, apparently of weak intellect and so infirm that he had to be physically held up during the trial. And James never denied any of Jennet's accusations from what little we know of him. Maybe he had a learning difficulty. Maybe he was young. Like there's no given age. There's talk of him being not much older than Janet and then there is talk of him being closer in age to Alison. But Alison is like 18, 19, so this is at least a teenager, like, maybe even younger, right? Maybe it's any of these factors, or maybe he just didn't want to scare his little sister. Either way, he was found guilty of murdering Anne Townley and John Duckworth with witchcraft. And so he was sentenced to death. Also on the 18th, Ann Whittle Chattox, she is accused of murdering Robert Nutter. She pled not guilty, but the confession, the confession she had provided to Roger Noel, previously under duress, was shared with the court. Then James Robinson testified that Robert Nutter had blamed Chattox of spoiling his beer and that many knew that she was a witch. To Robinson, he lived with the, like, Chattox Wittle family, like many, many years, like decades previous, right? And now he's like, yeah, this one dude said she ruined his Biel in a desperate attempt to save her daughter. And knowing that she herself was damned, Chattix takes all the blame and begs the court to spare Ann Redfelm. But yes, she is convicted, sentenced to hang. The next day, the Samilsbury witches were tried and these were followed by Anne Redfern. Anne was accused and acquitted of the murder of Robert Nutter. However, she was then tried for the magic mutter of Robert Nuttall's father, Christopher. A statement that Demdike had provided to Roger Nowell was read to the court on how Anne had crafted a clay figure. Well, clay figures of the Nutter family, like an old English version of voodoo dolls. And so if you wanted to hurt a person, you would, like, crack the clay in certain places. Or if you wanted to just like, end their life, you would throw the clay figure into a fire. Witness after witness accused Anne of not only being a witch, but an incredibly dangerous one. She was convicted partially on that and partially because she didn't testify against the others that were accused of witchcraft. So she didn't try and blame anybody else, which somehow made her more guilty. And she's also convicted. Jane Bulcock and her son John from New Church in Pendle were convicted of murdering Janet Dean through witchcraft. Now, Janet is a name that keeps appearing and I think we should bring it back. I'm just saying Alice Nuttall, she's like a bit of an odd fish in this group because most of the accused, they're poor. And Alice, she's a widow, a wealthy widow, right? Her, like, late husband, he was like a human farmer and she was doing quite well, so she doesn't quite fit. And she was quiet, silent even throughout her trial, except to plead not guilty of murdering Henry Mitton with witchcraft. Janet Device had named Alice Nutter as one of the attendees at Melkin Tower. And James, in his confession, claimed that his grandmother had told him about the murder. When Mitten denied her a penny, so she begged for a penny, he denied her and Alice helped curse him somehow. And Alice Nutter was convicted of the murder through witchcraft. But I'm going to get back to Nutter later because I have a wee theory. So Catherine Hewitt, also known as Mould Heels, the names, the nicknames, guys, I. She was a clothier's wife from Colne and she had attended the Melkin meeting and she was convicted of murdering a child, Anne Foulds Alice Grey, another one of the so called Pendle witches, for whatever reason was acquitted. Now sometimes like she'll be linked in with the Selmsbury witches, but she's one of the Pendle witches. So then we have the trigger for this series of events. Alison Devise. So she takes the stand. John Law, her alleged victim confronted her in court. Now Alison, she is convinced of her own guilt. She's a teenager who lived a very particular life and she like many members of her family, like she falls to her knees and cries and confesses, like she's convinced that she did this. Like she thinks that her words, like her anger caused this man to suffer a stroke and be partially paralyzed. So she like many members of her impoverished family were convicted of witchcraft. And so Ann Whittle, Anne Redfern, Elizabeth Device, James Device, Alison Device, Alice Nutter, Jane Bulcock, John Bulcock and Catherine Hewitt were sent to the gallows. They were executed the next day, the 20th of August 1612 with like on the moors like overlooking the town, like the, a huge proportion really of a village are executed for all to see. You may have noticed that Elizabeth Sovereign, damned egg, like she's not on that list. Well being the 1600s and Elizabeth being an elderly woman being held in a 17th century jail cell, she died before the trial began, right? She wasn't treated very well because prisoners were not. Like there's so many tales of prisoners being forgotten and everything else and like the stress also of being there and it's like less than a month they're held and she's already dead. So the people, the alleged victims, some died suddenly, other had clearly long term illness, you know, or you know, were old and there are plenty of explanations for what could have ended these people's lives. No, not lupus, you know what, maybe lupus, but probably not lupus, right? Like there are so many things that lead to death. Like we still don't have an answer for things like sudden adult death syndrome, you know, like people die sometimes and we don't always have an answer or we miss something, right? There are so many things happening inside our body that we just don't, we just don't know yet because we're not all medical professionals. So anyway, let me give you my nutter theory. So first of all, most of the accused were women, single women, widowed women, women of a certain age, a group of people looked down upon by society, a group of people who met on Good Friday and a country ruled by Protestantism. Protestantism, I can pronounce words, I Can enunciate. So the Nuttall family, many of them had Catholic ties, right? Like, they had even been some Jesuit priests who had been executed. Like, this is a traditionally Catholic family in what is a traditionally Catholic stronghold, even after a Protestant Reformation. And what if it wasn't a mutton eating, plotting feast? What if it was a secret Catholic service? The very thing that could get you accused of heresy. Because, like Alice Nutter, she's silent throughout her whole trial when she could have argued, she could have blamed other people. But there is a theory that she didn't want to, like, link any Catholics to this event. Right? And what if the whole eating mutton because you're not supposed to eat meat on Good Friday was a distraction to a secret Catholic service, right? Because being Catholic and being a witch, they can both get you con, you know, convicted of heresy. Like, you're. You're done, you know? So this is just a thought, but so ends the story of the Pendle witches. So, of course, if you liked my tale of the suffering of women, feel free to rate and review it five stars. If you don't have anything nice to say, you don't have to say anything at all. It's fine. I forgive you. Oh, my goodness. I just realized this is the first episode, but I didn't say fuck this for Game of Soldiers. Well, I've said it now. You're welcome. So, yeah, you can follow me on the socials, you can follow me on Patreon and all of the other things and come to London and see me. I'm doing a live podcast. It is very fun. There's back and forth, there's good times. I wear a dress that definitely shows a little bit too much cleavage, and everyone has a good time. Sometimes I even talk about a Muppet Treasure Island. With that, I think I will have to say good day to you. But before I do, it's recommendation time for listening Sabrina Carpenter. You know what? Listen to Sabrina Carpenter. I don't care. Anything in the last, like, two years. Give it a go. It's fun. It's. It's fluffy. It's a fuck you to patriarchal society. So do that. For reading, I'm gonna recommend Bold, Brilliant, and Bad Irish Women from History by Marion Broderick. And for watching Practical Magic, we deserve this. Okay. Put the lime in the coconut and drink it all. Put the lime in the coconut. I was actually in Salem the day. The day that they announced Practical Magic, too. I've. I've never had a perfect information moment as walking through a graveyard in Salem to finding out practical magic, too, is coming to us. And please, for the love of all that is unholy, we're going with our witchy theme. Someone give Nicole Kidman a high quality wig because that woman is wearing a wig. Right? I want a high quality wig. I want Game of Thrones level wiggery. Okay? Downton Abbey level wigs. Okay? That's what we deserve. And with that, my delicious friends, I will bid you adieu. Adios. Au revoir. Au vuitzen, my friends. Bye bye.

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