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- [00:02]
Narrator
Get ready for your next True Crime binge. It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said get to the hospital. The doctor came in and told us that there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye. This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Come on down to Boost Mobile and turn your tax refund into six months of savings.
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Co-host
Nope, all wrong.
- [00:35]
Narrator
You're on the radio touting Boost Mobile's 5G network. You gotta use your radio voice like this.
- [00:40]
Co-host
Come on down to Boost Mobile and.
- [00:41]
Narrator
Get six months free when you buy. Six months on our best unlimited plans. Now you go. This is just how my voice sounds. Just say it like you mean it.
- [00:49]
Co-host
Okay.
- [00:50]
Narrator
Plus enter to win up to $10,000 and double your tax refund.
- [00:54]
Co-host
Oh my.
- [00:55]
Narrator
Requires upfront payment, taxes and fees, extra terms and exclus. Apply. Visit boostmobile.com for full on our terms and sweeps details. Worried about what ingredients are hiding in your groceries? Let us take the guesswork out. We're Thrive Market, the online grocery store with the highest quality standards in the industry. We restrict 1000 plus ingredients so you can trust that you'll only find the best high quality, organic and sustainable brands, all free of the junk. With savings up to 30% off and fast carbon neutral shipping. You get top trusted groceries at your door and you can stop worrying about what your kids get their hands on. Start shopping@thrivemarket.com podcast for 30% off your first order and a free gift. On May 11, 1992, a 20 year old woman named Jennifer Judd is found brutally murdered in her apartment in Kansas. Jennifer's body is discovered by her new husband, Justin Judd. Investigations reveal that Jennifer died from multiple stab wounds. Suspects are investigated, but for years the case goes cold. Until 2004 when a man confesses to Jennifer's murder. But his confession raises more questions than it answers. From I D and ARC Media, I'm Sarah Kaelin and this is who Killed Jennifer Judd. The morning of Monday, May 11, 1992 started like any other in the rural community of Baxter Springs, Kansas. 20 year old Justin Judd wakes in the pre dawn hours. He gets himself ready for work as quietly as he can, hoping not to wake his wife, Jennifer. Justin's a big guy, a former high school football and basketball star. He's about 62 and he's solid, a regular at the local gym as he gets ready for work, his wife Jennifer sleeps in. She works a late shift as a cashier at a local convenience store. Jennifer is a petite woman with sandy brown curly hair in that classic late 80s style. Like Justin, Jennifer was a standout athlete, having starred on the high school softball and basketball teams. She has bright brown eyes and a very easy smile. This morning routine is new. It's Justin's first day back at work since the Sweethearts got married just over a week earlier in a big wedding full of family and friends. At around 6:30 that morning, Justin climbs into his blue pickup truck. He pulls out of the driveway of their duplex apartment to start the nine mile drive to the chemical plant where he works as a security guard. He makes a left and then another left, turning onto Historic Route 66. About 10 minutes later, he makes a right onto a dusty gravel farm road. The sun starts to peek over the long flat horizon as he pulls up to the chemical plant, a few minutes late for his 6:30 shift. An hour or so later, he realizes he's forgotten his lunch. He calls their apartment. Jennifer says she'll bring it over before his lunch break, which starts at 10:30am Justin and Jennifer met almost five years earlier when she was a freshman and he was a sophomore at neighboring high schools. After graduation, they stayed together even as Justin took jobs out of state for a few months at a time. On May 2, 1992, in a morning service at the Baptist church Jennifer attended her entire life, they exchanged their vows. The couple then went off to Branson, Missouri for a quick honeymoon and were home in time to spend Saturday playing pickup softball with a group of friends. On Sunday, the newlyweds attended a Mother's Day church service with Jennifer's parents and then met Justin's parents for a backyard barbecue. They imagined long lives full of these moments with family and friends and had no idea how this dream would be shattered. Less than 24 hours later that Monday morning, Justin's lunch hour comes and goes with no sign of Jennifer. Initially just hungry and annoyed, Justin calls the apartment again. There's no answer. Ten minutes later, he calls again. Still no answer. Less annoyed and growing increasingly concerned, he calls her parents. They haven't heard from her. Landlines are his only option. He couldn't check Life360. He couldn't track a cell phone. Maybe she's gone out and forgotten his lunch. It would be out of character, but he hopes it is that simple. At 11:45, Justin's friend and groomsman, Chuck Chance, shows up at the chemical plant. Chuck lives about 10 minutes away from Justin and Jennifer and he says he'd stopped by their apartment earlier that morning. He'd seen only Jennifer's car was in the driveway and he assumed that meant Justin wasn't home so he figured he was at work. Chuck decided to head there. He asks if Justin wants to go to the gym after work. Justin says yes and Chuck decides to hang out until they can go. Justin's distracted though. He's wondering why Jennifer hasn't shown up or called. As a pretty young guy who's fairly new on the job, he can't leave in the middle of his shift. When his shift ends at 2:30 he drives straight home kicking up dirt and dust as he speeds along the unpaved farm roads leading him back to Route 66. Chuck follows in his little white geostorm. Justin feels uneasy as he pulls up and sees Jennifer's car in the driveway. He sees his lunch on the passenger seat, the banana showing signs of browning from sitting in the heat. He reaches the front door. It's unlocked. Now he knows something is wrong. Justin rushes into the apartment. Chuck follows. It's very dark inside and at after coming in from the bright light outside it's hard to see at first. Justin goes down the hall to look in the bedroom. He doesn't see Jennifer. The bed is made but it looks a bit mussed like someone has been sitting on it. There's a can of soda spilled over on the floor. He almost runs towards the kitchen. His eyes have adjusted to the light inside now and he can see that he's walked into a nightmare. The body of 20 year old Jennifer Judd was found in her Baxter Springs home. Judd had been stabbed a total of nine times. I was in my dorm room at Neo and Jen's driver's license came up on the TV was how I found out. I didn't believe it. I thought oh she's been in a car wreck, she's done something because she, you know everybody had cassettes back then. We made mix tapes. She had them all over the car and everything else. I thought oh she's changed something and crashed or done something. I still, I just couldn't believe it when they said she was gone. This is Jennifer's close friend Chris Hausch. Her uncle David was our elementary junior high basketball coach. We all had the same friends. We all grew up. You know. I went to church with her on Sunday. If you stayed the night at Debbie's house on Saturday night you had to get up and go to church Sunday morning. Regardless Even though Jen may be in the bathroom putting her makeup on at church, for the first 20 minutes we were still at church. Chris still lights up as she talks about Jennifer more than 30 years later. In the summers she liked to go to the creek. She'd go out and put your old plastic lawn chair that folded in like that in the water and lay out. She was a sun worshiper. She liked to buy clothes, she liked to shop. Everything had to match. Well, you know, back then we had big hair and big bangs and aquanet hairspray and the blow dryer and the wings. And Jen, I don't know how many times she fried herself underneath the sun tanning lamp. She'd get under that thing and fall asleep and then she'd blister up. She was outgoing, she had a great laugh, was always smiling, in a good mood, very family oriented. Jennifer was the oldest of three girls. Her youngest sister was born when Jen was in high school. She saw, invite and picked me up. After Kay was born, I went to the hospital and seen Debbie and Kay. She absolutely worshiped the ground the little girl walked on. I spent a lot of time with her, probably my freshman and sophomore year at the Express. A picture just setting, not doing anything. I'd get out of basketball practice and go over there. By then Jen was really coming into herself. A star athlete, yet girly as can be. She never would leave the house without any makeup on. I mean, you never seen her not fix that, not even on the basketball court. She had a sweatband thing she wore around her head, but her bangs were still big hair. She was a lot of fun. We'd go drag Maine living on a prayer I can see us driving down the road singing that Whoa, whoa, that part, yeah. It was the 80s. Chris wanted to get out of the area, but Jen felt at home. She planned to build her life here. Her whole goal through everything else was to get married and live happily ever after and have a family. That dream was starting to come true nine days later when news of Jennifer's murder came across Chris's dorm room tv. Chris drove straight home. She kept hoping to wake up to find out this wasn't true. It just didn't make sense. There wasn't anything out of the ordinary with her or her family. Just good people. No, nothing odd in their family at all. Uncles were all good, Grandma was good, Debbie and Dale were good. You know, they'd give you the shirt off their back to help you. When Chris got home, her hopes of learning there'd been some awful mistake were Dashed. It was very real indeed. The line was out. The funeral home kind of curved around where the. Underneath the canopy, cardboard thing. I was probably in line for an hour and a half trying to get to Debbie and Dale. Of course, the casket was closed, which was a blessing. And there was everybody from our community there, all age ranges, I mean, just everyone. I was walking up the stairs to the funeral home at Pitcher and Jen's Grandma Garrett was coming down the stairs and she grabbed a hold of me and hugged me and she whispered in my ear, chris, she wasn't raped. And I was so thankful, you know, even though we had lost her, that she didn't go through that trauma. You know, she was scrappy. We got into it even though we were very good friends. We got into it two or three times on the basketball floor and be wrestling for the ball in a quap ball versus pitcher game. I'd foul her, she'd elbow me, play point guard. So she wasn't one to go down light leaf or anything. What happened to Jennifer left the entire community in shock. And what's worse, everyone knew it was probably someone in their midst, someone they knew and trusted. It was the 14th, I guess, was her funeral. We lived out in the middle of nowhere, west of welch, on a 700 acre farm in the middle of nowhere. And so I made my dad follow me home, check the house. And I grew up learning how to shoot, shoot, skied as a kid. And I was like, if you're gonna leave, we're gonna lock up the house and you get me a gun. I'm not staying in the house by myself. And he gave me a.38 revolver with six hollow points, and I slept with it under my pillow for probably five years and then moved it to the bedside table. It's a very small community. You don't know for sure what happened. What we know for sure is that someone came into Jennifer's home that morning, stabbed her three times in the back and stabbed her six times in the chest. When Justin and Chuck walked into the house, they were far too late to save her. Justin found her with her shirt pulled up, partially as though the attacker had intended to cover her wounds. Justin panicked. He initially didn't even see that she'd been stabbed. He didn't see blood, as most of it was underneath her. Thinking maybe she'd collapse from some unknown medical issue, he checked for a pulse and told Chuck to call 911. Chuck dialed, but couldn't seem to get any words out. Justin grabbed the phone from him and told the dispatcher what was happening as best as he understood in those first moments. As he hung up, he punched the wall. His fist went straight through. Only after hanging up did he look again and actually notice the small pool of blood next to his bride. The nightmare was getting much, much worse. Baxter Springs police arrived. Within minutes, Justin and Chuck were separated for questioning. The police collected evidence, but within hours the case was turned over to the Kansas Bureau of investigation, the KBI. The coroner determined Jennifer died at 10:17am Neighbors reported seeing a woman walking near the apartment building that morning. Others said they saw Chuck's wife's car, the white Dodge neon in the area. And still more thought they saw Justin's mom at the apartment. Local booster clubs began hanging posters and billboards with the slogan justice for Jennifer quickly popped up all over the region. Chuck Chance was the prime suspect. Before the sun rose on May 12, police questioned him. They collected hair and blood samples from him. They collected these from Justin too, as well as another half dozen or so men in the area. This is a tight knit community. Jennifer graduated high school less than 10 miles away in a class of 34 students. Everyone wanted this case solved. And yet the case quickly went cold. It stayed cold for more than 12 years, until December 2004 when someone started talking.
- [18:06]
Co-host
I know that I was there that day. You know I've had bad dreams about it. I know that me and her had a 5F8. I know I stabbed her. I know that she's not here. I know that's what you do. We had a lady that was murdered named Lisa Nichols. It was during Hurricane Ivan.
- [18:29]
Narrator
This is Sheriff Paul Burch of Mobile County, Alabama. In 2004, as authorities dug the city and county out from under the rubble of Hurricane Ivan, they learned a woman had been murdered during the storm's immediate aftermath. The victim's daughter and son in law found her remains in the bathtub. She had been sexually assaulted, shot and then burned. A beer can found at the scene did not match the only brand of beer Lisa was known to drink, indicating that she had welcomed another person, potentially her killer, into the house.
- [19:10]
Co-host
So first thing you do is canvas the area. We were at a little bit of a disadvantage because of the hurricane. There are a lot of residents who still have not returned home. So for a couple of days we reached out to the ones we could made contact and one of them in particular, toward the end of Van Parton Road, you know, the opposite end of where Lisa lived, said, now that y'all ask, there was a guy in a red jeep Cherokee that stopped by here, he was acting very, very strange. He said he was almost out of gas, wanted some gas. And he goes, you know, my family was home. We just got home. I wanted to get him out of here. I gave him a five gallon can of gas and he poured like one or two gallons and brought it back. And he's like. And just kept acting weird. And I just ushered him on, said, you know, but, you know, you can take all the gas that you can with you, whatever. He remembered that it was an Alabama tag and that the first two digits were 11. So he felt concerned enough that he made a mental note of that. And so obviously one of the first things we did was ask him if anybody knew anybody. Red Jeep Cherokee. And then we also called and had NCIC try to run all Jeep Cherokees beginning with 11, you know, red in color.
- [20:34]
Narrator
While the search was run through a national database, Paul and a handful of officers continued investigating the scene. At some point, a neighbor came home from where he'd been riding out the storm.
- [20:47]
Co-host
We asked him and he goes, oklahoma has a red Jeep Cherokee. Who's Oklahoma? And he said, john Paul Chapman.
- [20:59]
Narrator
John Paul Chapman. Nickname Oklahoma. The neighbor, Mark Bentley, and his wife often hosted short term borders guys who were doing manual labor work in the area. Guys like John Paul Chapman, who said he was in town working on the.
- [21:15]
Co-host
Docks, he's worked for him before. And he goes, but I don't think he would do anything like that. And that's when he said, well, how do we get in touch with him? And he said, well, he's been staying here, he'll probably be back at some time. And around that time we were able to narrow down, I want to say there were five or six Red Cherokees that began with 11, and John Paul Chapman was one of them. Now we need to find out about him. And at the time, you know, we ran and there was a. On an NCIC arrest. There was a previous robbery, and that was all we really knew about him. And that he wasn't from here, but yet he had an Alabama driver's license, which was strange. And as the investigation progressed, we got a tip on him being involved in an altercation with some other drug dealers, meth dealers and users, and that he had abandoned his Jeep in a wooded area not too far from the scene. So we went there, looked for him, didn't find him, recovered the vehicle. So I reached out to him, I talked to him a couple times on the phone, real casual, said, hey, we're just trying to exclude people. So we can focus more on who was responsible. And I think it was the following day we got word that he was trying to get a ride to the bus station. So I was able to reach him by phone. Said, look, you know, he said, you were going to meet with us and do this, so we can exclude you. Yeah, I'm working on my vehicle. It's got some problems. I need to get it fixed, and I'll come meet y'all. Well, I knew right then he was lying because we had the vehicle. He didn't know we had the vehicle, obviously, so he hung up, and then he called right back and blocked the number. Well, I'd already had my partner document the number that was on the phone, and I said, call dispatch. Have that number traced, and let's see where it is. And it was near. It was a block over from the scene. So we proceeded to that direction in a hurry. So we get to the address where he is in the passenger side of a vehicle. I don't remember if it's a car, truck. You could see him pointing and yelling. And we now know he was telling the driver, go, go, go. I want to kill you. And so we blocked him in and put them both out at gunpoint because we didn't know what the involvement was of the other person. And the very first words out of his mouth was, I had every intention of making you kill me. And so that's not something that someone hadn't been involved in something bad since.
- [23:50]
Narrator
On September 21, 2004, Paul Burch arrested John Paul Chapman.
- [23:57]
Co-host
When we first arrested him, he was real insistent about calling his mama. You know, he was clearly a mama's boy. And, you know, we made note of the number he was calling.
- [24:10]
Narrator
Chapman called a number in Miami, Oklahoma, around 700 miles away. Given what he knew about John Paul Chapman, this didn't make sense to Paul. He filed this away and began the interview process with the suspect. Day after day, he sat in a small room at the sheriff's office going over every little detail.
- [24:32]
Co-host
He kept lying about ever being in the house. We finally got him to where he said, yeah, I met her on. Talked to her on the back porch, but, you know, never went inside. And then we knew that somebody had been because of the two different cans.
- [24:47]
Narrator
@ the scene, police found a can of bud light, a brand that Lisa never drank. Her family was adamant that she drank only natural light. They found a natural light can upside down in her sink, as she always left them when she finished. A can. This second can found on a dresser in the bedroom indicated that a second person had been in the house. Paul suspected Lisa had seen Chapman around her neighbor's house while he was staying there and that they were friendly enough.
- [25:17]
Co-host
To share a beer, and he just would not put himself inside. So while we took a quick break, I went down to crime scene, had him fingerprint me on some of those, you know, cards, you know, little index cards, and put, well, John, you. You say you never went in, but, you know, we know Lisa only drank this. We know that the Bentleys bought you these beers, Bud Light. And I said, but these are your prints on this beer. And he changes. Well, I went in, but I didn't go. You know, I went into the kitchen. So once you get them to change their story, especially more than once, I mean, you got them.
- [26:01]
Narrator
Paul had him. Chapman confessed. Still, something didn't seem right, especially considering Chapman's record didn't include anything that might reflect a crime of this nature.
- [26:14]
Co-host
The way the crime scene was set and all that, it was not something that somebody who had committed the first murder would do.
- [26:25]
Narrator
Everything at the scene where Lisa Nichols was killed looked like the work of a seasoned killer setting a localized fire to conceal physical evidence. The obvious comfort with spending a significant amount of time with the body afterwards, the way it appeared to have been at least a little bit planned out ahead.
- [26:45]
Co-host
So we sent out a nationwide teletype with his name and details of the crime and trying to find out if there were any other similar crimes to bring in touch with us. So the following day, we received a teletype from Missouri State Prison and said, look, I don't know who y'all have, but, you know, we have John Paul Chapman. Same Social Security number, same date of birth. He's been here for 10 years on a robbery. And we physically went, Little T's still here. So we called my Emma PD and said, hey, you know, do y'all know Jeanie Beard?
- [27:21]
Narrator
Jeanie Beard was the name of the woman assigned the phone number the suspect had insisted on calling when he was arrested.
- [27:29]
Co-host
They were like, yes, we're very familiar with her. She's, you know, a thorn in this community. And she has one son who's a fugitive who's raped several women in and around the area. And he was a serial rapist in the area and had raped and sexually tortured a woman before fleeing that last time. His name was Jeremy Brian Jones. So I went over to the jail, had him brought to the front, had it up a folder in my hand. I said, now, how you been doing, Jeremy? And just you could see the facial expression change and you know, he kind of almost like a sigh of relief and his words were, you know, that's the first time I've heard my name in about five years.
- [28:17]
Narrator
Paul Burch had only an inkling of who he had just caught. He had no way of knowing what would happen when Jeremy Jones started confessing.
- [28:27]
Co-host
We continued to talk to him about the Lisa Nichols case and then throughout several weeks time he began to talk about other crimes.
- [28:40]
Narrator
Come on down to Boost Mobile and turn your tax refund into six months of savings.
- [28:44]
Co-host
Nope, all wrong.
- [28:45]
Narrator
You're on the radio touting Boost Mobile's 5G network. You gotta use your radio voice like this.
- [28:50]
Co-host
Come on down to Boost Mobile and.
- [28:51]
Narrator
Get six months free when you buy. Six months on our best unlimited plans. Now you go. This is just how my voice sounds. Just say it like you mean it.
- [28:59]
Co-host
Okay.
- [29:00]
Narrator
Plus enter to win up to $10,000 and double your tax refund. Oh my. Requires upfront payment, taxes and fees. Extra terms and exclusions apply. Visit boostmobile.com for full on returns and suites details if you're a facilities manager at a university, you know students rely on the cafeteria for breakfast, lunch, dinner and the occasional late night snack. So when a dishwasher breaks down and dirty plates pile up, the mess hall can turn messy in the blink of an eye. Enter Grainger. With over a million industrial grade products and fast delivery, the product you need now is never far away. So you can turn that dishwasher back into a lean, clean washing machine. Call clickranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. Get ready for your next True Crime binge. It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said get to the hospital. The doctor came in and told us that there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye. This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and scale launches March 3. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I' been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate, first 3 months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees, extra feeful terms@mintmobile.com Jeremy Jones is an average sized guy, about 5 8, with brown hair that he dyed blonde for most of his late teens and 20s. He grew up in Miami, Oklahoma. He began getting into trouble with the law when he was still in high school, and his first serious arrest came in 1995 in connection with a rape in the area. Jones raped at least two more women with increasing degrees of brutality. Those women went to the police. They filed charges. Yet Jeremy Jones never served time. He got probation, and in late 2000, another woman reported Jones for rape. This violated his probation. Authorities filed a warrant for his arrest. Jones went on the run in nearby Joplin, Missouri. He met a woman at a bar and charmed her into selling him her son's identification. That man was serving a lengthy prison sentence himself and wouldn't be needing his driver's license or birth certificate anytime soon. For the bargain basement price of $50, Jeremy Bryan Jones became John Paul Chapman. Over the next three and a half years, while living mostly in Georgia, Jones was pulled over on traffic stops. He was arrested for exposing himself. He was repeatedly arrested for domestic violence, all while being a fugitive wanted for violent felonies in Oklahoma. But with each of these arrests, when police ran fingerprints, nothing came back. Everyone somehow completely failed to notice that these were not John Paul Chapman's fingerprints. There was a glitch somewhere in the system, and it seemed that no one was smart enough to piece together that this man simply was not who he said he was until he ran up against Paul Burch. And once Jones confessed to killing Lisa.
- [32:49]
Co-host
Nichols, he started talking about murders and rapes in other jurisdictions out of state. He'll sit here and just BSing and talking about football, hunting, whatever, but the minute he starts to talk about a case, he sits up straight, his expression changes on his face, and then he starts talking about it consistently.
- [33:17]
Narrator
He had no problem discussing his methods of killing women, the horrible things he would do to them that only he would know, because forensics would have details about the injuries that were not released to the public. That's a former FBI agent named Michelle. When Jones started confessing to cases in other states, Burch called in the FBI.
- [33:43]
Co-host
So at the time Michelle was assigned.
- [33:47]
Narrator
Nobody knew how he would act. Bringing in someone else, especially female, and.
- [33:52]
Co-host
He would open up a lot more an issue with her there because obviously he was attracted to her. And he just, you know, in his mind, thinks, you know, hey, I'm. I'm God's gift to women. So, you know, we use that to our advantage.
- [34:07]
Narrator
It's almost like he was bragging or showing off. This is pretty standard with predators like Jones. They also tend to think they're always the smartest person in the room.
- [34:19]
Co-host
Jones knew that she was an FBI agent, but he made the assumption that she was my wife.
- [34:25]
Narrator
She wasn't.
- [34:26]
Co-host
He made that assumption and he was excited about it, so we decided to roll with it.
- [34:33]
Narrator
In these interviews, Jones demonstrated clearly the way the rules of right and wrong are just different for a remorseless killer and the ways in which they mostly engage in a sort of mimicry of human behavior. Manners and etiquette drilled into him at an early age. He can act accordingly. After decades of practice, but darkly detailed descriptions of his violence, it doesn't naturally click in his mind that this is far more offensive or upsetting to his audience than any four letter word might be. So he would make these, I guess, confessions about tool marks and, and not look at me, not look at anybody particularly. Just look around and speak about this incident. And then he would use the F word or something like that and catch himself and look at me and say, oh, I'm sorry, Michelle, I forgot you.
- [35:26]
Co-host
Were in the room.
- [35:27]
Narrator
Which just told me his sense of what's right and wrong was completely twisted compared to what a normal individual would feel.
- [35:37]
Co-host
It was somewhere toward the end of December of 04, the first time he mentioned Jennifer Judd. He alluded that he had known Jennifer from school and that they had a relationship of some type and that they maintained a relationship even after she got married and that her husband was abusive and jealous. And he got to know kind of her husband's pattern of going to work that the morning that she was killed, he waited and watched the husband drive off to work and then went to the apartment. And then, you know, the husband called and said he's coming home and she's telling him to leave because husband's on the way home. They get into an argument and turns physical and he accidentally killed her. And he was typical in the way he did this. He wouldn't tell everything at once. You know, he may tell a little bit this time. You may go a couple of more meetings and not say anything about it. And then he'll bring it up again, you know, and give a little more details.
- [36:48]
Narrator
Okay. This is where things begin to get complicated when trying to piece together the truth. Confessions from serial offenders can take many shapes. And the way Jones does this is not uncommon. This doling out of the information, the truth peppered with lies and vice versa. There is a game like quality to it for this breed of offender. And he knows exactly what he's doing as he engages in it.
- [37:18]
Co-host
Well, that evolved into the fact that he went over there and same kind of beginnings where he watched the husband leave. He wanted to have sex, she didn't want to. They began fighting, and she tries to leave. And that's when he stabs her with knives that were at the house. And what caught my attention was that he said there were two knives involved and that one, the handle broke and the blade was still in her. And so he grabbed a second knife and then finished killing her. And then he took the knives with him and left. And, you know, so he discarded them shortly after leaving.
- [37:57]
Narrator
Paul didn't know the details of Jennifer's case or anything about the investigation. He'd never even heard of Miami, Oklahoma, never mind been there or talked to the local police. But now he knew they needed each other's help in making sense out of Jeremy Jones.
- [38:15]
Co-host
Well, when we finally get a hold of someone to, you know, try to verify that, and they're like, yeah, that's absolutely true.
- [38:22]
Narrator
The Kansas bureau of investigation was handling Jennifer's case because she had died in baxter Springs, Kansas, just over the Oklahoma state line. KBI said they'd send a couple of agents to speak with Jones and determine if he was telling the truth. A week later, agents Larry Thomas and Ray London walked into the mobile county sheriff's office to sit down with Jones. Burch sat in. A camera recorded the conversation.
- [38:52]
Co-host
Jeremy, this is Larry Thomas. Hi, Jeremy London with kbi. Hi, how are you?
- [39:00]
Narrator
Good to see you. Just so you know, it's official, we're.
- [39:02]
Co-host
With the Kansas crew investigation.
- [39:05]
Narrator
The footage is a bit grainy. They're in a conference room, all sitting around one end of a long wood wooden table. Jones hands are free. His ankles are shackled.
- [39:15]
Co-host
The main reason we're here is there's one case in particular that we picked.
- [39:20]
Narrator
Up as a cold case squad. 1998, our director formed a cold case squad. He took three or four agents and put together a group that all we.
- [39:28]
Co-host
Do is look at unsolved cases in reviewing cases. One of those cases that we picked.
- [39:33]
Narrator
Up was the Jennifer Judd case in Baxter springs. And know what to talk to you.
- [39:37]
Co-host
About on Jennifer Jaden. We're just trying to put the story together, and it's probably uncommon for two.
- [39:44]
Narrator
Cops come in here and try to talk you out of something. Over the next six hours, Jones Tells these men his version of events.
- [39:54]
Co-host
For whatever reason, I know that I.
- [39:56]
Narrator
Was there that day, you know.
- [39:59]
Co-host
You know, I've had bad dreams about it. I know that me and her had a fight that day. And I know I stabbed her. I might not remember, you know, for whatever reason, I know that she's not here right now.
- [40:16]
Narrator
These tapes are a fraction of the 16 hours he spent with the KBI agents. And as I watch them, I'm doing as those agents did that day. I'm attempting to sort truth from fiction.
- [40:29]
Co-host
Well, I thought I was gonna wait on Jesse to come home, and I.
- [40:32]
Narrator
Was gonna kill Jesse.
- [40:34]
Co-host
Jesse wasn't a small dude.
- [40:36]
Narrator
Me about same type as me.
- [40:39]
Co-host
But saying he worked out, I'm saying he was. He probably kicked my ass, you know, she was telling me that I would need to leave. And I told her no. I'd sit down.
- [40:50]
Narrator
I'd sit down in a chair, you.
- [40:52]
Co-host
Know, on the couch and told her I wouldn't leave and I was gonna stay right there. And she came over, got on her knees, begged me, you know what I'm saying?
- [41:02]
Narrator
Told me to please leave.
- [41:03]
Co-host
I'm saying that, you know, And Miss more or less told me that what me and her had was sex and what earned him had with love. You know, it didn't matter how much I cried, how much I. It didn't matter what I said. She wasn't gonna change her minds. Okay.
- [41:19]
Narrator
You go through whatever type of water, you went through that door of the apartment, what happened? And you. Now that you've thought about it more and we've been asking questions about it, can you in more detail, tell us.
- [41:34]
Co-host
The sequence of events was me and her argue, saying, we kissed and fucked around. Okay.
- [41:40]
Narrator
We messed around.
- [41:41]
Co-host
We messed around before the couch. Okay.
- [41:43]
Narrator
You know. This is Jones's description of the morning of May 11, 1992. Earlier in the interview, he told investigators he and Jennifer were having an affair. He references this throughout his detailed account of the morning. He also refers to Jennifer's husband, Justin Judd.
- [42:05]
Co-host
She told me that he's going to be home in a couple hours. Okay. You know, and that's where I come up with the timeline. That's why I come up with 12. Okay. She told me he was coming home in a couple hours. Okay. You know, can't remember. There was a bruise on her somewhere on her thigh, her leg or something. I'm playing, like, her. Like under her knee or. There was a. There was a bruise on her somewhere. And I asked her about the bruise. Where did it come from?
- [42:31]
Narrator
And she told me came her hand.
- [42:34]
Co-host
You hear, did something. That's when I snapped. That's why I went crazy and said I was gonna wait on him. I was gonna kill him. Okay. She told me that a little, you know, we got into a fight and I accidentally cut her, you know, and that's where we ended up. In the bathroom or sink, trying to wipe it off. In the bathroom? Bathroom, Kitchen sink, one of those things. One of the sinks. I remember having us a towel and water, you know what I'm saying? And so cleaning up, huh?
- [43:00]
Narrator
Of her workout. Yeah.
- [43:02]
Co-host
You know, and at that point I.
- [43:04]
Narrator
Went and sit on the couch, and.
- [43:05]
Co-host
She'S telling me, I got to go, I got to go, you know, Kept.
- [43:08]
Narrator
On, kept on looking outside, tell me.
- [43:10]
Co-host
I got to go, you know, I told her no. And one thing led to another, and I told her if I couldn't have her, no one could have her.
- [43:21]
Narrator
Said you thought there might be more than one night involved. What? How?
- [43:25]
Co-host
The other night I grabbed another knife and I told her, either you're going to have to kill me to protect him or I'm going to kill him, you know what I'm saying? And I put. I. I put the knife in her.
- [43:34]
Narrator
Hand, you know what I'm saying? Where'd you get it?
- [43:36]
Co-host
In the kitchen. What part of the kitchen? I don't know if I got it out the drawer. I don't. There was some ice and I could lay in the sink, you know.
- [43:47]
Narrator
That.
- [43:48]
Co-host
They used the night before or something. And I put the knife in her hand and I told her he had stabbed me. And I tried to. I forced her hand, squeezed her in.
- [43:57]
Narrator
Her hand, you know what I'm saying?
- [43:57]
Co-host
Tried to get her to stab me, you know. Just told her, you know, you had to protect me.
- [44:02]
Narrator
Did you?
- [44:03]
Co-host
Well, how big Was this knife?
- [44:06]
Narrator
6, 8 inches on the plate, you.
- [44:08]
Co-host
Know what I'm saying? Bigger than a stake knife.
- [44:10]
Narrator
Like multiplication.
- [44:11]
Co-host
Yeah. The other night. I know that my.
- [44:15]
Narrator
I know that when I stand through I could fill the carpet.
- [44:17]
Co-host
I'm had a spot.
- [44:19]
Narrator
I can feel.
- [44:19]
Co-host
I could feel it all the way through.
- [44:25]
Narrator
In six hours of conversation with the KBI agents, Jones shares essentially the same story he'd told Birch a few weeks earlier. And yet these men reached an entirely different conclusion. The KBI declared that Jeremy Jones did not kill Jennifer Judd. I don't understand why. They've never fully explained if you're a facilities manager at a university, you know, students rely on the cafeteria for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and the occasional late night snack. So When a dishwasher breaks down and dirty plates pile up, the mess hall can turn messy in the blink of an eye. Enter Grainger. With over a million industrial grade products and fast delivery, the product you need now is never far away. So you can turn that dishwasher back into a lean, clean washing machine. Call click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Will full coverage make me look cakey? Is my undertone neutral or is it cool? We get it. Finding the right foundation is hard, but with IL Maquillage it's easy to find your perfect match online, customized for your unique skin tone and coverage needs. Plus, with try before you buy, you can can try your full size at home for 14 days. With over 600,000 five star reviews, this best selling foundation is going viral for a reason. Take the Power Match quiz now@ilmaquillage.com Quiz I L M A K I A G E.com Quiz hey guys, have you heard of Gold Belly? It's this amazing site where they ship the most iconic famous foods from restaurants across the country anywhere nationwide. I've never found a more perfect gift than food. They ship Chicago deep dish pizza, New York bagels, Maine lobster rolls, and even Ina Garten's famous cakes. So if you're looking for a gift for the food lover in your Life, head to goldbelly.com and get 20% off your first order with promo code Gift Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone Paying Big Wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments. But that's weird. Okay, one judgment anyway. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com Jones eventually confessed to more than 20 heinous crimes in Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Kansas and his home state Oklahoma. He claimed to have kidnapped, raped and murdered teenage girls. He said he executed drug kingpins for hire and set houses on fire to eliminate any trace of himself. People Nick nicknamed him Redneck Bundy. He's currently on death row in Alabama, awaiting the decision in a final appeal. Police departments in Georgia and Louisiana have charged him with murders too, and are just waiting their turn for a bite at the apple. Should Jones ever end up a free man all the other cases are considered cold cases. Some because local authorities dismissed the claims. Others because Jones told media reporters he never confessed. He claimed the cops were lying. It's a strange lie, at least to me, because the confessions are taped. And yet in one jurisdiction or another, law enforcement accepted that he had recanted. There are, of course, plenty of well known cases of men confessing to crimes they didn't commit. The most notorious and ridiculous false confessor was Henry Lee Lucas. Lucas claimed responsibility for more than 600 murders. Police all over the country made complete fools of themselves as they accepted his baseless claims, at times closing cases that would have to have taken place at the exact same time, thousands of miles apart. No responsible investigator wants to repeat that mistake. I understand why the KBI wouldn't want to take Jones at his word and close the case just so they could say they did. And yet there is reason to believe enough of what Jones is saying to warrant exploring his claims more rigorously. Instead, they said straight to his face, I don't believe you, and said to the rest of the world, there's no way he could have done it. He might not have committed every murder he claims to have, but can we really say with certainty that he didn't do any of them? He lies about details, but he tells the truth about just as many of them. He was in the area for each and every one of these cases. Unlike previous killers who seemed to confess just for attention. Henry Lee Lucas, Tommy Lynn sells. Men like this, many of their claims can be dismissed out of hand because they simply weren't there. Could Jones have cataloged case details for so many murders that happened near him for years and years just to pull them out of his memory and confess when he was finally caught? Maybe, maybe not. At some point I have to wonder if it makes more sense that it's all coincidence and lies, or if maybe he really was in the room for some of them.
- [50:28]
Co-host
I spent pretty much every day of one year with him to include holidays. And so I feel like I got to know his personality and got a pretty good read on when he was lying and when he wasn't. There are some that I don't believe he did. I think he embellished a lot of the cases for what at that time he thought would be some notoriety, the attention of people visiting with him. But I feel confident there's a half a dozen that he did do.
- [50:58]
Narrator
Jennifer Judd's case is on this list. I have many good reasons to trust Paul Burch and his instincts, but his word is not enough. I'm determined to get justice for Jennifer Judd. I want to know what happened to her and why police have never solved this case. I never met Jeremy Jones, and while he awaits a decision on a final appeal, his lawyers have cautioned me that I can't approach him as I attempt to determine the truth of his statements. In this case and perhaps others, I'll be in close contact with two people who have spent more time with him than perhaps anyone outside of his family. Paul and Michelle. That's right. Michelle Burch. Despite what Jones thought, these two weren't married back when the FBI assigned Michelle to the case. But they are now. They've been together 20 years. I'm sure they can think of better ways to celebrate an anniversary than revisiting the case that brought them together. But like all of us, they want this closed. He may have bragged a little bit about things he didn't do. I think he enjoyed the attention. He enjoyed the treatment, that everybody's coming to see him. But I do feel like the agencies, sometimes they're. I hate to say it, but lazy. They don't want to do the footwork to put the pieces together. Michelle might hate to say it, but I don't. I think lazy is the kindest way to describe the work of the investigators in northeast Oklahoma. I can think of a few other choice words. Michelle is more diplomatic than I am, but everyone seems to agree. I definitely feel like he's responsible for a lot more than he's been charged with. After Kansas and Oklahoma investigators dismissed Joe confessions, the Mobile county sheriff hosted a press conference. He was able to lie without remorse.
- [53:10]
Co-host
That he was able to kill without remorse.
- [53:12]
Narrator
The only person I ever saw Jeremy.
- [53:14]
Co-host
Jones express any sorrow for was himself.
- [53:17]
Narrator
And I think that speaks a lot.
- [53:19]
Co-host
About the kind of man that Jeremy Jones is. All I can do is provide what he said. I can't.
- [53:26]
Narrator
I can't go to that county or.
- [53:27]
Co-host
Any other county and another state investigated.
- [53:32]
Narrator
Police in Mobile can't cross into Kansas to investigate Jeremy Jones's claims, but I can. I'm a criminal behaviorist and homicide investigator. Jennifer's case has been living in a corner of my mind for almost eight years now, though I've had access to one side of the investigation. Jeremy Jones's confession tapes. For most of that time. I have never really been sure I could trust what I knew. Many of the blanks had to be filled by press coverage through the years, and I knew for certain I couldn't trust that. Not because the intentions weren't Good. I have no doubt that everyone in the region, including the press, did want to see a resolution. But the longer a case is cold, the more it becomes like a game of telephone. Suspicions become rumors, rumors become facts. Facts get cemented into every account of the case going forward. I have not seen the Jennifer Judd case files. So for all these years, all I have known for certain is that Jennifer was killed in her home sometime in the morning. That she had been stabbed nine times with two. Two different knives from her own kitchen. But I have never been able to shake the feeling that if I could learn more of the actual facts, the real case details, then I could at least determine whether Jeremy Jones was a viable suspect or nothing more than a skilled bullshit artist. I need to see the case files. So I'm heading to the intersection of Kansas, Missouri, and Oklahoma, to a community tormented by the acts of a pure psychopath, born and raised in their midst. If there is truth to his claims, I think he committed his first murder in 1992 when he killed 20 year old Jennifer Judd. He claims to have killed two more people in 1996. Two in 1992, and five more in 1999. I've looked into several of these cases. I've talked to the families of victims, and we agree. I do. That he's been dismissed from a lot of things that he probably shouldn't have been. And I just will never be convinced that Jeremy Jones is not part of many of those. I'm going to take a closer look at the murder of Jennifer Judd in hopes of deciphering fact from fiction in the many tales told by a man named Jeremy Jones. There's been times that I'm like, I really think we need to look at Jeremy. Well, they tell us not to. They tell us that there's no way it was possible. And I'm just like, something inside me says otherwise. There's so much closure there that could help so many people, and people deserve it. You know, our families deserve closure. The work I did in the Miami, Oklahoma region six years ago took a toll on me. I swore I'd never go back, but this case calls to me. I want to get justice for Jennifer Judd. I want to know what to make of Jeremy Jones. And so in March 2024, I'm heading back to Oklahoma. Next time on who killed Jennifer Judd? I did not know that Chuck Chance.
- [57:02]
Co-host
Was even a suspect.
- [57:06]
Narrator
That whole side of the street was just batshit crazy.
- [57:10]
Co-host
I really don't want her to know that we talk about it.
- [57:12]
Narrator
Do you think Jones could have done it. Who Killed Jennifer Judd is produced by ARC Media for I D. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts Applebee's has a brand new Big Easy menu. It features all your Bourbon street favorites in one in one new menu. Plus a new Bourbon street chicken and chicken and and Dewey's sausage pennies down at just $11.99 with Cajun flavored Show to get your oh show to get your taste buds dancing. Applebee's is bringing Bourbon street to your own street. Make sure to try the Big Easy menu now. Only at Applebee's. Only at Applebee's. Limited time, price, participation and selection may vary. If you're a facilities manager at a university, you know students rely on the cafeteria for breakfast, lunch, dinner and and the occasional late night snack. So when a dishwasher breaks down and dirty plates pile up, the mess hall can turn messy in the blink of an eye. Enter Grainger. With over a million industrial grade products and fast delivery, the product you need now is never far away. So you can turn that dishwasher back into a lean, clean washing machine. Call click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Get ready for your next True Crime binge. It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said get to the hospital. The doctor came in and told us that there's really not much more that they could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye. This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Hi, I'm Raj Panjabi from HuffPost. And I'm Noah Michaelson, also from HuffPost. And we're the hosts of Am I Doing It Wrong? A new podcast that explores the all too human anxieties we have about trying to get our lives right. Each week on the podcast, Raj and I pick a new topic that we want to understand better and bring a guest expert on to talk us through how to get it right. And we're talking like legit credible experts, doctors, PhDs all around superheroes from HuffPost and Acast Studios. Check out Am I Doing It Wrong? Wherever you get your podcasts.