Ep.5: 99% Certain

Summary

Who Killed Jennifer Judd? – Episode 5: 99% Certain

Release Date: September 11, 2024
Host: Sarah Kaelin
Guest: Justin Judd

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Introduction

In Episode 5, titled "99% Certain," of the gripping true crime series Who Killed Jennifer Judd?, host Sarah Kaelin delves deeper into the enigmatic and unresolved case of Jennifer Judd’s tragic death. This episode focuses on the primary suspects, the nuances of evidence, and the lingering questions that continue to perplex investigators and those close to the case.

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Recalling the Relationship

Justin Judd, Jennifer's husband, provides a heartfelt recount of their relationship, highlighting both the depth of their bond and underlying tensions.

• First Meeting and Courtship:

  • [03:03]: "We walked from Starla's house down to the softball field and we had our first kiss in the dugout."
  • Justin reminisces about meeting Jennifer at age 16 and their subsequent four-year relationship leading to marriage.

• Competitive Nature:

  • [03:38]: "We kinda pretty much grew up together as far as, you know, from 16 to 20."
  • [03:38]: "We were so jealous of each other. It was super competitive between her and I."

• Wedding Day:

  • [05:00]: Jennifer and Justin planned a spring wedding in May 1992, which Justin describes as a "really nice wedding."
  • [05:39]: Reflecting on his vow to "love and protect," Justin expresses deep remorse: "I didn't protect her. And those words have haunted me for a long time."

• Daily Remembrance:

  • [06:03]: "Daily, pretty much daily. Not just the wedding, just a song you hear or different things he mentions."

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The Night of the Murder

The episode revisits the fateful morning of May 11, 1992, when Jennifer Judd was found dead in her apartment.

• Discovery of Jennifer:

  • [13:53]: Justin recounts finding Jennifer on the kitchen floor: "I opened the door and it was dark... I saw her laying there. My first thought was she was anemic and had some problem."
  • The sudden tragedy leaves Justin in a state of shock, leading to memory blackouts regarding the immediate events.

• Initial Police Investigation:

  • [15:17]: Justin describes the police's swift suspicion of their friend, Chuck Chance: "It took a lot of convincing for them to even have me consider him as a suspect because he was my friend."

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Primary Suspects

1. Chuck Chance

A central figure in the investigation, Chuck Chance’s connection to Jennifer and Justin has been a focal point.

• Justin’s Perspective:

  • [07:57]: "Even being as young as I was, I wasn't a big fan of that because I really felt like it was putting the person, it was making it too much of a whodunit."
  • [08:12]: Justin maintains his suspicion: "In my opinion, I feel like one person done it, one person knows he did it and he has not told a single person."

• Altercations and Motive:

  • Reports suggest Chuck had a volatile history with Jennifer, including a notable incident where he allegedly pushed her, leading to friction.

• Evidence Against Chuck:

  • [22:46]: Justin expresses confidence in Chuck’s guilt: "I would fall back on [the KBI's assessment] that there's a 99.9% chance that this one person did it."

• Counterpoints:

  • Susan sources, including friends of Jennifer, argue that Chuck’s temper was not directly linked to violent intentions towards Jennifer.

2. Jeremy Jones

Another suspect who emerged a decade later with a confession that remains contentious.

• Jones’ Confession:

  • Jeremy claims the murder was a "lover's quarrel," but inconsistencies in his statements have cast doubt on his involvement.

• Discrepancies Highlighted:

  • [25:24]: Justin dismisses Jones' confession: "From what I gather, his Emma was raped. And I really feel like he would have probably raped her if it was him."
  • Jones described interactions with Chuck that Justin and others have no memory of, raising questions about their validity.

• Inconsistencies in Jones’ Statements:

  • Claims of conversations between Jones and Chuck that never materialized in public or personal accounts.

---

Evidence and Investigation Developments

• Fingerprints on the Murder Weapon:

  • [31:00]: Advanced fingerprint technology in 2000 identified three prints on the knife blade that did not match Chuck Chance.
  • The absence of the actual knife in current archives hampers re-examination of this critical evidence.

• Missing Evidence:

  • The knife, crucial for reanalysis, is unaccounted for: "They initially said they had it, but later denied possessing it."

• Potential Leads:

  • The assistant discusses the possibility of re-examining DNA evidence, though the lack of the knife poses a significant challenge.

---

Alternative Suspect: Alan Redden

As the investigation progresses, attention shifts to Alan Redden, a registered offender whose history may align with aspects of the case.

• Connection to the Case:

  • Justin mentions Redden’s background, suggesting potential links but acknowledges no direct conversations or interactions regarding the case.

• Challenges:

  • Limited interaction makes it difficult to substantiate Redden’s involvement without concrete evidence.

---

Personal Reflections and Unanswered Questions

• Justin’s Emotional Burden:

  • Throughout the episode, Justin grapples with guilt and loss, sharing personal dreams and memories that keep Jennifer’s presence alive in his life.

• Sarah’s Investigative Challenges:

  • Sarah Kaelin expresses frustration with the interference of rumors and distorted memories that complicate the pursuit of truth.

• Lingering Doubts:

  • Despite suspects being suggested, Sarah remains cautious about drawing definitive conclusions without irrefutable evidence: "As a behaviorist, when I'm looking at a 20 year old suspect without a history of this kind of violence, I need a firm motive."

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Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

• Unresolved Evidence:

  • The missing knife remains a pivotal gap in the investigation, potentially holding the key to identifying the true perpetrator.

• Ongoing Investigation:

  • Sarah commits to pursuing every lead, including looking into other individuals like Alan Redden, and emphasizes the necessity of scientific analysis to unravel the mystery.

• Hope for Justice:

  • Both Sarah and Justin harbor hopes that continued diligence will eventually uncover the truth, bringing closure to a case that has haunted the community for decades.

---

Notable Quotes

• [03:38] Justin Judd: "We kinda pretty much grew up together as far as, you know, from 16 to 20."

• [05:39] Justin Judd: "Looking back, you know, when I was 20 years old... I didn't protect her. And those words have haunted me for a long time."

• [07:57] Justin Judd: "Even being as young as I was, I wasn't a big fan of that because I really felt like it was putting the person, it was making it too much of a whodunit."

• [15:53] Justin Judd: "He had stopped by and Jennifer's car was there. Nobody was there."

• [23:27] Justin Judd: "I can remember the KBI telling me there's a 99.9% chance that this one person did it."

• [27:50] Justin Judd: "From what I gather, his Emma was raped. And I really feel like he would have probably raped her if it was him."

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 5: "99% Certain" deepens the exploration of Jennifer Judd’s untimely death by examining the intricate web of relationships, conflicting evidence, and persistent suspicions surrounding the case. Through heartfelt interviews and meticulous analysis, Sarah Kaelin and Justin Judd strive to peel back the layers of mystery, seeking answers that have eluded resolution for over three decades. As the investigation continues, listeners are left pondering the elusive nature of truth and justice in the face of enduring uncertainty.

Transcript

[Justin Judd]

Get ready for your next True Crime binge.

[Sarah Kaelin]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said get to the hospital.

[Justin Judd]

The doctor came in and told us that there's really not much more that.

[Sarah Kaelin]

They could do for her and that.

[Justin Judd]

We need to go say goodbye. This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Hey prime members, Are you tired of ads interfering with your favorite podcasts?

[Justin Judd]

Good news.

[Sarah Kaelin]

With Amazon Music you have access to the largest catalog of ad free top podcasts included with your prime membership.

[Justin Judd]

To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com.

[Sarah Kaelin]

ADFreePodcasts that's Amazon.com ADFreeP Podcasts to catch up on the latest episodes or without the ads.

[Justin Judd]

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[Sarah Kaelin]

Previously on who Killed Jennifer Judd? I got goosebumps all over me just thinking about it. Our case is based on witnesses and.

[Justin Judd]

There'S no doubt I could probably charge.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Chuck Chance based on the witness information, but I don't think I could convict it. Chuck and her got into it many times at parties, but it was just like bantering back and forth. There was no physical pushing or nothing like that.

[Justin Judd]

The main thing I want to know is of just and Jeremy ever ran around together. I went over to the jail, had him brought to the front. How you been doing Jeremy?

[Sarah Kaelin]

From ID and Arc Media, I'm Sarah Kaelin and this is who Killed Jennifer Judd.

[Justin Judd]

I was at a party and Jimmy Adams was dating Starla Morgan and Jimmy told me that Starla had a friend that wanted to meet me over in Pitcher and I said all right, let's go. And we went over and I met her.

[Sarah Kaelin]

This at long last is Justin Judd. Now that we have finally connected, I'm eager to learn as much as possible from him and he seems equally eager to help in in any way he can. We meet on a Saturday Afternoon and decide to start at the beginning. The night he met Jennifer. He was 16 years old.

[Justin Judd]

We walked from Starla's house down to the softball field and we had our first kiss in the dugout.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Sitting on the bench there nearly 40 years later, now more than twice the age he was on that cherished night, Justin looks as shy as a teenage boy describing a first crush.

[Justin Judd]

We kinda pretty much grew up together as far as, you know, from 16 to 20. Back then it seemed like it was forever.

[Sarah Kaelin]

He immediately strikes me as being honest. He paints a picture similar to what I've heard from Jennifer's friends.

[Justin Judd]

Gosh, me and that girl, we were so jealous of each other. I mean it was to the point where when we was in high school we would over who could score the most points in a basketball game. You know, when she would play and I'd play, you know, and stuff. We'd get home, we'd call each other how many you have tonight. You know, this is super competitive between her and I and we were pretty jealous of each other and stuff and we broke up weekly probably, you know, with kids and look back at some of the stuff we were jealous over. It was just, it was ridiculous. I can remember we broke up one time and I sent her roses to school and it was weight day. We was lifting weights at school, getting ready to practice football and Jim Buttram comes in and goes, there's a mighty pretty girl out there wanting to see you. I'm like cool. And I go out there and it was her, her and Teresa Heatherly and Jane Gibbs I think. And she brought me the, give me the rose fl. She was a spitfire, that's for sure.

[Sarah Kaelin]

As for their wedding, we just talked.

[Justin Judd]

About getting married all the time. And then one day I can remember her always wanting to set a date. When are we gonna set a date? When are we gonna set a date? And I didn't care. It didn't really, didn't matter to me it's whenever we finally set a date.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Jennifer originally pushed for a date in 1991, but they decided to wait until they could save a bit more money. They eventually chose 19-5-2 and planned a big spring wedding at Jennifer's family church.

[Justin Judd]

I remember being really super, super nervous. I just remember waking up and just getting around and going to the church and seeing everybody and she was really nervous. She was afraid that nobody was going to show up and ended up being a packed church. I mean it was really a nice wedding.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Justin is looking to the side. He seems to be holding back Tears.

[Justin Judd]

Looking back, you know, when I was 20 years old, I grew up working in my dad's pipe and steel yard. And we sold pipe and seal to all these farmers around this, around the area and stuff and got to know them all. And if you've been around farmers much, they're the type of people that when you say something, you mean it. And I really took the vows serious. And the part where to love and protect and I didn't protect her. And them words has haunted me for a long time.

[Sarah Kaelin]

I ask how often he thinks of her.

[Justin Judd]

Daily, pretty much daily. Not just the wedding, just a song you hear or different things he mentions.

[Sarah Kaelin]

May 9, 1992. They had just returned from their honeymoon in Branson, Missouri, and they met up with their friends at the pitcher high school field.

[Justin Judd]

I can still close my eyes and see them walking down the road, walking to the softball field. She was mad because we wouldn't go get her glove and she hurt her finger that day.

[Sarah Kaelin]

He smiles as he talks about Jennifer, her entire family, including her parents, Debbie and Dale.

[Justin Judd]

Me and Dale. At one point in time, we put a new motor in my truck. And I always worked on stuff with my grandpa when I was a little kid. Me and my grandpa, my grandpa, he's like my hero. And working with him on that truck and stuff, it brought back a lot. I got really close with Dale. I felt like, I mean, he was just a great dude. I mean, I enjoyed so much going over there and working on that truck with him. And Debbie, I felt like, was pretty close. You know, she always joked with me and stuff. And it was just, I don't know, fell apart.

[Sarah Kaelin]

I've wondered about Justin's relationship with his in laws. It definitely fell apart. In the years after Jennifer was killed, he believes they started to question him after a family friend organized a fundraiser with the Harlem Magicians, a famous traveling basketball team. It was Harlem Magicians versus Team justice for Jennifer. Justin played with the Magicians. Apparently everyone took this as a sign they were wrong. At the time. He actually found himself struggling with all of the justice for Jennifer campaigns.

[Justin Judd]

Even being as young as I was, I wasn't a big fan of that because I really felt like it was putting the person, it was making it too much of a whodunit. And this person was less likely to talk because everybody in the community wanted to choke him.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Oh, interesting.

[Justin Judd]

That's kind of how I seen that. It's like, man, we're just back in this guy in the corner. I did help him hang signs up and stuff. Like that. And the whole time I just had the same feeling. In my opinion, I feel like one person done it, one person knows he did it and he has not told a single person. And I think it's all because of pushing him back in the corner. I mean, nobody wants to be that guy. You know, you wouldn't think in a community where everybody, I mean, she did not have enemies. I can't literally sit here and think of somebody that did not like her.

[Sarah Kaelin]

I see a lot of love on his face and I hate that I'm going to ask him to talk about the most painful day of his life. But it's inevitable. That's what we need to discuss.

[Justin Judd]

Get ready for your next True Crime Binge.

[Sarah Kaelin]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Elsa called me and she just said get to the hospital.

[Justin Judd]

The doctor came in and told us.

[Sarah Kaelin]

That there's really not much more that.

[Justin Judd]

They could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye. This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and scale launches March 3. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Worried about what ingredients are hiding in your groceries? Let us take the guesswork out. We're Thrive Market, the online grocery store with the highest quality standards in the industry. We restrict 1000 plus ingredients so you can trust that you'll only find find the best high quality, organic and sustainable brands all free of the junk with savings up to 30 off and fast carbon neutral shipping. You get top trusted groceries at your door and you can stop worrying about what your kids get their hands on. Start [e-mail] podcast for 30 off your first order and a free gift.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Hey prime members, are you tired of ads interfering with your favorite podcasts? Good news with Amazon Music you have.

[Justin Judd]

Access to the largest catalog of ad.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Free top podcasts included with your prime membership.

[Justin Judd]

To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com.

[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

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[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

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[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

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[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

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[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

I remember getting to work and I relieved Bill York that morning, I believe. And all I can really recall is getting to work and then remember that I forgot my lunch and I remember calling her and she was going to bring it.

[Sarah Kaelin]

In the notes from one of Justin's earliest interviews with detectives, the detectives wrote, quote, he asked if Jennifer would bring his lunch. He told Jennifer he loved her and she commented with words to the effect of, you're just saying that, so I'll bring your lunch. Justin commented this was typical of their relationship, teasing and joking with each other, end quote. We move on in the timeline of that Monday morning as Justin begins to explain how Chuck showed up at his guard shack at the chemical plant.

[Justin Judd]

I thought it was really odd because I believe we played basketball on Saturday, a bunch of us, and he was on the opposite team. And he and I was not getting along on the basketball court at all. And I just thought it was really odd that he show up at my work.

[Sarah Kaelin]

This has always seemed a little odd to me too. We know Chuck was unemployed at that time because he spent the morning looking for jobs. Justin says Chuck had never showed up at the chemical plant before.

[Justin Judd]

I thought it was odd that he knew that I was working because I worked a rotating schedule there too. And his clothing was kind of weird, too. He had on penny loafers, a pair of gym shorts, and a polo shirt, which was not like him. He was always a pretty decent dresser. He just sat there and visited with me while I was, you know, doing stuff.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Chuck asks if Justin wants to go to the gym after work, and Justin agrees. Chuck sticks around for another two and a half hours until the end of Justin's shift. By then, Justin is really starting to worry about Jen. It's not like her to not show up, to not answer the phone, to not even call to let him know if something else came up. As soon as Justin's shift ends, he clocks out and speeds home. They plan to go to the gym, but Justin wants to check on Jennifer first. Chuck follows and pulls into their driveway right behind Justin. Jennifer's car is in the driveway, and this makes Justin even more nervous. He gets out of his blue pickup truck and walks to the front door.

[Justin Judd]

I was always really big on locking the doors, you know, make sure the door is locked. And I had the key in my hand and I reached, for some reason, I just reached down and grabbed the knob and it turned and I. And at that point, I had a really bad feeling.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Chuck gets out of his car and walks to the door behind Justin.

[Justin Judd]

I opened the door and it was dark. And I went to the bedroom first, and the bed was made. She made the bed. It looked like somebody laid on the edge of the bed. Now I walked back around, walked in the kitchen and seen her laying there. And my first thought was she was anemic and had some problem issues there. And I thought maybe she might just passed out. And then when I turned the light on, I reached out, I felt her neck, and it was cold and swollen and told Chuck to call 911.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Justin stops himself. He takes a sip of water.

[Justin Judd]

Chuck got on the phone. He couldn't talk to 911 people, so I talked to him. And after I hung the phone up, I just. I know I just had this rage. I punched the wall when the EMTs got there. You know, I don't. Might have been part of the shock or what, but I thought once they got there, things would be fine.

[Sarah Kaelin]

This, of course, was the shock talking. Nothing would be fine. Justin doesn't remember seeing blood or much else he saw that day. He believes he blacked out, or has at least blacked out the memories. This makes sense. And it doesn't make me suspicious. It's incredibly common. His memories jump ahead in time.

[Justin Judd]

I just remember there's just a bunch of people showing up at the police station.

[Sarah Kaelin]

It's in this window of time, literally within minutes, that cops start to suspect Chuck. At first, Justin didn't agree.

[Justin Judd]

It took a lot of convincing for them to even have me consider him as a suspect because he was my friend. He was her friend. We all knew each other for years and years and years. Things like that didn't happen back then.

[Sarah Kaelin]

What were they saying to try to convince you that he was a Bible suspect?

[Justin Judd]

First, it was the differences in our stories. There was one part of his statement and my statement that didn't go together.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Do you remember what that was?

[Justin Judd]

Yeah, what was that? That he had stopped by and Jennifer's car was there. Nobody was there. And so he went on to his sister's house and changed clothes and then come back to my work, which really didn't make sense. I mean, he could have changed clothes at my work, but anyhow, they were talking about that. And that night he called me. Chuck called me and he said, why did you tell the KBI that I went to my sister's? And I said, cause you did tell me you went to your sister's and changed clothes. He goes, no, I didn't. That's when I told him, I said, you probably are getting a lawyer. Hung the phone up.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Chuck took Justin's advice. He got a lawyer. The lawyer handled all subsequent communication with the police. Police, including their requests for Chuck's blood and hair samples. Chuck never mentioned his sister's house in his first statements to police. There are two ways to interpret this. First, Chuck might have hidden the stop at his sister's from police. This could be the 23 minute window. If that's the case, he would have had to have killed Jennifer, Driven to his sisters, changed, and made it to the bank in 23 minutes. The other possibility is that Justin is misremembering the details all these years later. Maybe at the time he was upset about the discrepancy we see in Chuck's two statements, but if so, it's lost to memory. That's one of the biggest challenges of reopening cold cases. I've learned not to dig deeper when this happens. Often there isn't any more to dig up. But even more troublesome is trying to force a memory into existence. This is how vague recollections become rumors and rumors become accepted facts, all of it leading to false leads and bad theories. We move on from this because there are other people I want to talk about.

[Justin Judd]

Okay.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Tommy Davis.

[Justin Judd]

Mm. My best friend.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Okay. It's so funny because all the papers refer to Chuck as your best friend. And I'm like, that's not what I'm hearing from people who are around me.

[Justin Judd]

And Tommy grew up together.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Yeah. Do you think he had been at the apartment before the wedding?

[Justin Judd]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Because it may have just been an elimination thing, Sort of a follow up question to that. There was supposedly something about a hand injury on that day that he went to the doctor for. He left work in the morning and then ended up at a doctor with a hand injury.

[Justin Judd]

I didn't know anything about that.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Okay, but do you have. I mean, but I do know.

[Justin Judd]

Whenever they wanted, the blood and hair and stuff. One day he was at work and he heard that they needed something from him. He just walked off the job and went to the police station.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Went and did it.

[Justin Judd]

Okay. Very.

[Sarah Kaelin]

You know, that's really good to hear. The more people we can eliminate quickly, the faster we can whittle the list down to a small group of viable suspects. And while I haven't seen anything in the files that states exactly what Justin is describing about this, Neither is there any indication that they had to take legal action to compel Tommy's cooperation or that Tommy ever got a lawyer. I'm feeling better and better about checking Tommy off the list, moving on to the next name. If on some weird Reddit rabbit hole. I don't even. Somebody said your mom did it. How would you react to that?

[Justin Judd]

Said what?

[Sarah Kaelin]

Your mom did it. He's shaking his head and laughing. She's absolutely not in any report or file or anything. It was one of these weird like web things. I feel bad even asking, but Justin reassures me there's nothing you can ask.

[Justin Judd]

Me or say or anything that's going to bother me.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Okay?

[Justin Judd]

I've. I've already dealt with the worst part of it.

[Sarah Kaelin]

He's had years to think about this and like everyone else, he has theories of his own.

[Justin Judd]

I really feel like they, for lack of a better term, romanticized this murder into a point where it's some big fascination with drugs and a whole lot of stuff that just wasn't going on back then. We never, I mean back then steroids was just like a myth that stuff that happened in Hollywood where bodybuilders and stuff.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Speaking of, our producer Danielle has a question. Do you ever hear the term qua mafia?

[Justin Judd]

There is 906 people in Quapo Qua mafia.

[Sarah Kaelin]

I've asked other people about this so called mafia and they react like Justin. No one's ever heard of it. There is just no evidence that any Quapaw mafia ever existed. There were no drugs. He laughs again at the idea of this having been a hired hit. With what money? He asks. He says he was making $7 an hour and spent all of his savings on the wedding.

[Justin Judd]

And the thing that a lot of people completely, totally forget is we were 20 year old kids.

[Sarah Kaelin]

As far as Justin is concerned, there is one person who knows what happened. Chuck Chance. Dustin never really says Chuck's name by the way. He says this person. Danielle asks what Chuck's motive could have been.

[Justin Judd]

Really super simple, I believe. I think they were infatuated. Did you ever get signs of that over the course of you and Jennifer being together? Not until after. Not till after the fact. And I look back on things and realize that this person, you know, how guys together will joke around about other people's girlfriends and stuff, you know, I cannot recall him ever mention her name in any capacity of anything joking or anything like that ever. Like nothing negative, nothing. Like almost like he was protective of her by omission as opposed to. There was a time he and I was working on our football Highlight film. We had all our. Back in the VHS days. You know, you pause and record and pause and record and put different clips on her. We were working on that and she went with me one night. And it was almost like I went in there after. I mean, they got to talking about old school days and stuff. And I felt like, you know, you guys want me to leave? You know, it was. That really sticks out in my mind.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Danielle and I continue working through the motives.

[Justin Judd]

So the infatuation would almost potentially be showing up at your house when he knew you weren't there. She rejects him, but somehow it turns into a scuffle of some.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Like a fight that just escalated very quickly.

[Justin Judd]

Somebody who has a really bad temper. He does. What are other times you saw his temperature? Well, hell, he and I got into it in football, on the football field one day in practice, into a fistfight. He just always had a flail to handle a temper.

[Sarah Kaelin]

If you closed your eyes and there was a world in which chance didn't exist, was never part of this, or had an airtight alibi, is there anybody who you would be like, I don't trust that person.

[Justin Judd]

I would fall back on. I can remember the KBI telling me there's a 99.9% chance that this one person did it. And there's a 0.1% chance that a random passerby serial killer did it. I would fall back on that 0.1%.

[Sarah Kaelin]

So just a total stranger.

[Justin Judd]

Yeah.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Okay, well, good. Cause I'm looking for strangers too. The idea that the Kansas Bureau of Investigation told him there's a 99.9% chance that Chuck Chance did this is next level infuriating. I keep this frustration to myself. I want to talk about the other prime suspect, the one missing from KBI's list. But right at the top of my list, Jeremy Jones. When Jeremy Jones confessed to killing Jennifer, he said it was a lover's quarrel. He says they knew each other from school, but really met at a powwow party. And he describes having sex with Jennifer in a park. He says she always made him use a condom. The details go on and on. Chris Hausch, Michelle McCorkle and now Justin Judd have all told me that Jennifer and Jones did not know each other. So it seems like Jones is making this up, but not entirely. He might have been obsessed with Jennifer and fantasized about her so much that he created an alternate reality in his head. He's even worked Justin and Chuck Chance into this alternate reality. Here's his conversation with kbi Agent Larry Thomas. When you run across Justin and Chuck, were you ever a part of any conversations about Justin not wanting to get married? Yeah, she. She talked to me. You know what I'm saying?

[Justin Judd]

She told me he was the one.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Wanting to get married and she didn't. She was afraid he was gonna find out about me, that he would kill me, you know, and that Chuck would have seen us.

[Justin Judd]

She said Chuck would have killed us.

[Sarah Kaelin]

That. Jones claims to have known Chuck around the time Jennifer was killed. He says they work together at a place called Bayliner. Bayliner was another huge employer in the region, and it's entirely possible that the two men worked there at the same time. Jones says that after Jennifer was killed, he and Chuck had a conversation in the break room where Chuck's seemed upset. Jones claims Chuck said, the police think I did this and I didn't do this. And Jones claims he told him, look, if you didn't do it, you got nothing to be worried about. Jones tells that story twice in the Files. The first time he tells it is in his first interview with KBI agent Thomas. He says it was right around the time Jennifer was killed. The second time Jones tells the story, it's as part of a follow up interview Thomas did with Jones in his cell on death row a couple years later. In that one, he says it was probably two years after Jennifer was killed. This discrepancy makes it hard to believe this moment actually transpired. It seems like yet another one in which Jones is embellishing, as in maybe he worked with Chuck and knew that Chuck was upset after Jennifer was murdered. But this actual conversation in the break room may be made up. Jones also claims to have hung out with Justin and Chuck at powwows. Chris Hausch and now Justin have rejected this claim. If Jones has knowledge of any aspect of the case not known to the public generally, I have to make sure he didn't get the information by any other means than having been present at the scene. It's one of the many things I want to ask Justin about. What have you been told about the Jones potential involvement?

[Justin Judd]

Well, whenever he first was saying that he did it and stuff, the KBI called me and said, what do you think? And I said, not a chance. I just.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Based on what?

[Justin Judd]

From what I gather, his Emma was raped. And I really feel like he would have probably raped her if it was him.

[Sarah Kaelin]

This is the same primary reason Jennifer's friends rule Jones out. I hate spelling out that we don't know for sure that the perpetrator did not attempt a sexual assault or the fact that serial offenders often engage in acts that are sexual to them, but don't necessarily look that way at the scene. There's also his confession to grapple with. The problem with Jones is that it's about 75% bullshit and about 25%, like, on the money accurate. And there just was stuff that he knew that I struggle to understand how he had the information. And especially because one of the things, again, that gets widely reported or is in, like, the Reddit rabbit holes and stuff is that you guys were like, friends afterwards. Another prevailing rumor around this investigation is that Jeremy Jones knew so much about the case because he was neighbors with Justin sometime after the killing, and he talked to Justin about the murder, thus gaining access to details never shared with the public. This seems nearly as far fetched as the rest, but it's important to know for sure. Did you know Jeremy?

[Justin Judd]

Not prior to that. He actually was my neighbor. When me and Misty was married and lived in Quapaw, he moved into one of the little apartments by us.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Jones moved in next door to him in the mid-90s, a few years after Jennifer her was killed. By then, Justin was remarried. Who was he living with at the time?

[Justin Judd]

He had a girlfriend. And it was really bad. I mean, you could hear him beating her. Misty called the police one time, and the police come and she would say, oh, nothing's happening, or we're fine, you know. And my mom came over and she heard it one time. She called the police. Police come over. Oh, nothing's going on. And me and my friend Sean, Rick, he'd been to the Quapaw pow wow, which it usually goes really late, it's almost daylight. And we'd come back to my house and we were sitting there talking. He started beating our. And Sean's like, I can't deal with this. And he got up and went over and knocked on the door and says, you want to hit on somebody? Come out here and hit on me. And Jeremy pulled a gun on him and pointed right at his head. And he goes, oh, you're going to shoot me with your little gun? And then it come out on the news, you know, that he's a serial killer.

[Sarah Kaelin]

How long would you say you guys were neighbors?

[Justin Judd]

It was just a few months. And me and Misty ended up buying a house.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Did you ever in those months, like, sit on the back porch and have a beer with him or talk?

[Justin Judd]

Never had a conversation with him.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Never had a conversation with him. And you never talked about the case with him?

[Justin Judd]

Nope.

[Sarah Kaelin]

It's tough to hear, but Justin says nope.

[Justin Judd]

You're sure? Pretty sure. Okay.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Do you think there's any possibility that he and Chuck were friends?

[Justin Judd]

I don't know if they ever were friends or not.

[Sarah Kaelin]

And so now then, you know. My other question is, could he have gotten some of this from Chuck? At this, Justin shrugs. He doesn't know. And now I'm asking him to speculate. It's time to stop. I was hoping Justin could confirm this, but. Part for me, but I'll have to keep trying other avenues. We've been speaking for more than two hours, and I want to let Justin get on with his day. He's confirmed two important things for me. First, he still suspects chuck chance with 99% certainty. I'll keep searching, but I'm not sure what else can be said about Chuck. I have not eliminated him on my own suspect list, but I still struggle to see him as the primary suspect. The second thing Justin confirmed is that he doesn't think Jones killed Jennifer. I get it. He's been told for so long with such certainty by people who should be in a position to know. I am not so convinced of this yet. I do think that he was wrongly dismissed without further digging and without perhaps at least getting his DNA compared to some of the blood that was found in the apartment stuff. And that was never done. So there's a lot of reason to be optimistic, I think. I never, ever want to make promises, and I certainly don't want to make promises on time. But I can promise you that this is like now my job, you know.

[Justin Judd]

I really appreciate that. I really do. Means a lot.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Justin offers to share letters Jennifer wrote to him over the years they were together.

[Justin Judd]

I used to read them before going to bed, just hoping that I would maybe have some dreams or something that she'd visit in dreams. And sometimes she does. I had this one dream where I was laying in bed. I'm laying in bed. It's like one of them sleep paralysis dreams. And I'm wanting to turn over, knowing she's there, and I can't turn over. And it's. It was just. I would wake up just sweating and. I mean, it was just. And it really never made no sense to me.

[Sarah Kaelin]

I tried to help him make sense of it, but like so much of this story, it's hard to say if there is any sense.

[Justin Judd]

I had one dream, one time where I was in the movie theater and I was by myself and somebody tapped me on the shoulder and I turned around. It was her. And she said, I just want you to know I'm okay. And that was a very comforting dream. Get ready for your next True Crime Binge.

[Sarah Kaelin]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said, get to the hospital.

[Justin Judd]

The doctor came in and told us.

[Sarah Kaelin]

That there's really not much more that.

[Justin Judd]

They could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye. This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

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[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

To start listening, download the Amazon Music app for free or go to Amazon.com.

[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

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[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

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[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

York bagels, Maine lobster rolls and even.

[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

I don't know if you knew this.

[Sarah Kaelin]

But anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today.

[Justin Judd]

I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail].

[Sarah Kaelin]

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[Justin Judd]

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[Sarah Kaelin]

Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] after speaking with Justin, I understand why he thinks Chuck Chance killed Jennifer. He thinks Chuck had a crush on Jennifer and that this crush led Chuck to the Judd's apartment on the fateful morning of May 11, 1992. Someone else was in the house at some point and left behind a half empty can of orange soda. Justin had bought a case of the soda when he was getting supplies for taco night, but to find A can on its side in the middle of the bedroom floor. Bright orange liquid spilling out onto the clean carpet. Jennifer would never have just left that there. It doesn't tell us a complete story, but it does tell us that a person brought it back there into the bedroom and just left it on the floor. I see how Justin thinks this could have been Chuck, but I'm not convinced. Chuck was 20 years old. His record shows a history of violence, but of a very different variety than what was inflicted on Jennifer. He blew part of his own finger off in high school while messing around with a firecracker. He joined the military and was discharged nine months later, reportedly for reasons related to the injury to his finger. When Jennifer was killed, Chuck was married with a child and had no official record of domestic violence against his then wife Tracy. Though people who knew the couple have stated they believed there was physical abuse that Tracy never reported to the police. In the years since Jennifer's murder, Chuck has been arrested on charges related to bad checks and methamphetamine. He's currently in prison for some of those. He was hit with protective orders in 2007 and 2011. Otherwise, his record reveals no signs of pattern violence. As a behaviorist, when I'm looking at a 20 year old suspect without a history of this kind of violence, I need a firm motive. Sure, Chuck had a reputation as a hothead and a history of getting into fights, but there is an enormous range in the psychology of violence. And a guy who gets into dust ups over a bad call in a softball game is not the same guy who escalates to the violent stabbing death of a childhood friend. Not without a clear motive. I don't need this for known serial predators like Jeremy Jones, but I absolutely need it for someone like Chuck Chance. After hearing that Justin believes the motive is simple, that Chuck had a crush on Jennifer, maybe a crush going back to childhood, I go in search of confirmation. In the case file, I find a letter Jennifer wrote to a classmate four years before she was murdered. It's a typewritten page with October 27, 1988 in the top right corner. Corner. This would have been her junior year of high school. My number one sis. I am so sick of school. It's pathetic. I guess it's because everyone always starts about Justin. Me and Justin are going to get married in California and live happily ever after. I just love him to death sometimes. But then again, I want to get rid of him too. She adds four exclamation points. Points. At the end of that sentence, she adds, Jennifer Loves Justin eight times, creating a huge block of text across the bottom of the page. It's a few lines in the middle of the note, though, that really jump off the copy. Chuck said last night that he hated Justin. I said, why? And he said, because he's a smart alec and thinks he's better than everyone else. But he isn't. I can't believe Chuck, though. If he thinks I like him, he's got another thing coming. Chuck just likes girls for one thing, too. Oh, well, life goes on. This note seems to contradict what I've heard from Jennifer's friends. Chris Hausch dismissed the idea that Chuck ever liked Jen. Michelle did too. Both said it's a rumor that started after Jennifer's death. In the case files, I find that investigators spoke with many more of their friends. Their friends said things like Chuck Chance had a crush on Jennifer based on the way he always wanted to be around her. Chuck would hang out at the Picture Express when Jen was working. Jennifer did go out with Chuck a few times. I think Chuck asked her out. I was told Chuck still hung around Jennifer a lot because he still liked. They hung around together a lot. In eighth grade, two statements really stand out, saying almost the exact same thing. Chuck pushed Jennifer in the upper chest with both hands. She was pushed back against the display shelves and fell to the ground. Chuck quickly left the store. These statements put a new twist on the theory that Chuck had a crush on Jennifer. More importantly, they demonstrate that his notorious temper was allegedly directed squarely at Jennifer on at least one occasion. This alone could spell motive. I think of Jennifer asking her dad to follow her home from work in the last weeks of her life. Could this be why? Maybe. But this incident allegedly took place at least four months before Jennifer's death. No one reports a second incident like this one or any altercations between them closer to the date of her murder. It's horrible that it happened. My heart hurts for her, knowing she went through that and in the end chose to keep it to herself to prevent what certainly would have been the end of Justin's friendship with Chuck or worse. But it still doesn't draw a straight line to May 11. Several friends told investigators they thought that if Chuck killed Jennifer, he wasn't motivated by a crush on Jennifer. Rather, they think Chuck might have been mad at Jennifer for taking Justin from Chuck. This doesn't completely make sense, but there have been friends who said Jennifer and Chuck argued about whether Justin would still hang out with Chuck as much after the wedding. It's all so Speculative. Even back then, it was a bunch of what ifs and maybes about Jennifer disrupting the friendship between the men. Again, it doesn't add up to a motive for the kind of scene that would ultimately be discovered by those very two men in the duplex. As I read the statements, I keep coming back to Chuck's first conversation with police on May 11, 1992. They're talking less than 90 minutes after Chuck and Justin found Jennifer's body. Nothing in the tape makes me think Chuck is covering up the fact that he just murdered someone he's known most of his life. Ultimately, I think there's really only one way we'll sort through Chuck Chance's involvement. Science. I've been counting on touch DNA. But as I dig through the case file looking for every single mention of Chuck Chance, I realize we might not need DNA testing to rule him out. According to the files, the KBI attempted to lift fingerprints from the knife blade left lodged in Jennifer's back in 1992. But it was impossible because the blade was so bloody. Latent print technology advanced over the next few years, and in 2000, using newer tech, they were able to identify fingerprints on the knife blade. They lifted three nearly perfect prints, and the prints did not match Chuck. So who do they match? I should be able to answer that question fairly easily. I should be able to enter the prints into the national system APHIS and see if they return a match. Unfortunately, I can't. The actual print is not in the case file. All I'm seeing is the report that says a print exists and that it doesn't match Chuck Chance. I'd love to know if the print matches Jeremy Jones prints, but as far as I can tell, no one ever checked. Short of finding a copy of the print. I could repeat what they did in 2000 and pull the print off the knife blade. Could. If only we had the knife blade. Naturally, it's one of the pieces of evidence that we can't seem to find. It's not in the boxes and bags that Detective Joel Taber and I sorted through at the Cherokee County Sheriff's Office. A representative at the Baxter Springs Police Department initially said they had it, but later called Joel to say they were wrong. KBI says they don't have it. Finding the knife has always been on my list of priorities. Now, knowing that it contains a full print and that the print does not match the man listed as the primary suspect, I move this to the very top of my list. Still, I'm not pinning all hope on these. I'VE had my hopes dashed in other cases and I trust try to hedge a bit more nowadays. I'll still send evidence for DNA analysis and I'm still looking at suspects after several weeks with the case files. I have a few people I want to track down, names I've seen in the files, men who catch my attention, and one in particular, a man named Alan Redden. Next time on who Killed Jennifer Judd? So they never told you that they have usable prints on the blade of the knife? Okay? Nope, they didn't.

[Justin Judd]

But that would be real handy.

[Sarah Kaelin]

It's a guy named Alan Redden who is still alive. Are you familiar with this one?

[Justin Judd]

He's a registered offender, I believe, isn't he? If something like that would have happened, it would have been bad. Actually, she told me this may never even happen. You know, they definitely moved her then because that has a ton of DNA and I can't imagine why that would be too faint for interpretation.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Because if that's all blood, that's a lot. Who Killed Jennifer Judd is produced by ARC Media for I D. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. We'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts.

[Justin Judd]

Get ready for your next True crime binge.

[Sarah Kaelin]

It's all a blur. My Aunt Ilsa called me and she just said, get to the hospital.

[Justin Judd]

The doctor came in and told us.

[Sarah Kaelin]

That there's really not much more that.

[Justin Judd]

They could do for her and that we need to go say goodbye. This doesn't happen to people like me. A new True Crime 10 part series from the makers of Sword and Scale launches March 3rd. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Worried about what ingredients are hiding in your groceries? Let us take the guesswork out. We're Thrive Market, the online grocery store with the highest quality standards in the industry. We restrict 1000 plus ingredients so you can trust that you'll only find the best high quality, organic and sustainable brands all free of the junk. With savings up to 30% off and fast carbon neutral shipping. You get top trusted groceries at your door and you can stop worrying about what your kids get their hands on. Start [e-mail] podcast for 30% off your first order and a free gift.

[Sarah Kaelin]

She's a young aspiring actress, but fame comes with a cost.

[Justin Judd]

Police find bags filled with body parts.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Why her death by fame. All new Mondays at 9 on ID.

[Justin Judd]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Welcome Back to the OG's without saying the OG podcast. Everywhere, man, y'all.

[Sarah Kaelin]

Everywhere.

[Justin Judd]

It's your OG UD here with the public service announcement. Make sure you subscribe to the OGs. This ain't just a podcast, it's a movement. The OG's brings you the stories, the moments and truth straight from the locker room, straight to your ears. From hoops to life on and off the court, we've got the best stories in the game. You'll hear from your favorite Hoopers, comedians, actors, entrepreneurs, and a whole lot more. Make sure you subscribe, turn your notifications on, and tune in on Tuesdays, because the OGs are bringing you the new heat every week. I'm talking about towels, flying shoes, going everywhere. Oh geez. Out. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts. Everywhere. Acast.com.