Your Next Listen - Mind of a Monster: The Cross-Country Killer

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Who Took Misty Copsey?
Episode: Your Next Listen - Mind of a Monster: The Cross-Country Killer (January 13, 2026)
Host: Dr. Michelle Ward
Featured guests: Detective Jeff Bell, John Smith, Desiree Smith, Josh Hallmark

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Episode Overview

This special cross-promotion episode features "Mind of a Monster: The Cross-Country Killer," focusing on Israel Keyes—one of the most prolific yet little-known serial killers in recent American history. Criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward and a range of guests explore Keyes's background, chilling FBI confessions, and the societal factors that shaped his development as a violent predator. The episode dives deeply into Keyes's upbringing in a survivalist, isolationist religious community and juxtaposes his path with others from similar backgrounds who did not become killers. The question at the center: what creates a serial killer like Israel Keyes?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Is Israel Keyes? (00:41–01:59)

• "Israel Keys is the most prolific serial killer you've never heard of." (Israel Keyes, 00:41)
• Public perception: A killer hiding in plain sight, ordinary-looking, yet horrifyingly skilled at remaining undetected.
• He meticulously planned crimes years in advance and evaded suspicion.

2. The Samantha Koenig Case and Keyes’s Confessions (02:07–05:49)

• In 2012, Keyes was arrested for the disappearance of 18-year-old Samantha Koenig in Anchorage, Alaska.
• Detailed Confessions: Keyes reveals the chilling sequence of abducting, dismembering, and disposing of Koenig (“First day was the head, legs, and the arms... Second day, the torso.” – Israel Keyes, 03:45).
• Keyes’s affect: “He was constantly, like, rubbing his arms like he was chilled... definitely having a physical reaction to talking about what he had done.” (Det. Jeff Bell, 04:03)
• Investigators were shocked by the detail and candor—uncommon in confessions.

3. Childhood and Upbringing in Isolationist Extremism (05:55–16:32)

• Keyes grew up in remote northeastern Washington, off-grid, with no birth certificate or social security number—a “flex” in their society (11:20).
• Family was part of a religiously and racially extremist community (the Christian Identity movement), where violence and bigotry were normalized.
  • “There was a lot of space, there’s a lot of nature... but it can also create space for religious extremists.” (John Smith, 07:38)
  • Description of the movement: White supremacist, antisemitic, with a worldview steeped in apocalyptic violence (08:39).
• Extreme gender inequality and rigid patriarchy at home: “All women would be treated like children. But at worst, it was far worse than that...” (John Smith, 15:23)
• Keyes’s isolation was furthered by lack of social contact—and even within this environment, he was notably antisocial and “creepy.” (Desiree Smith, 16:32)

4. Early Signs of Psychopathy and Violence (17:33–28:43)

• Keyes spent long stints alone in the woods, practicing survivalism.
• Desiree Smith recounts a disturbing teenage “date” with Israel, during which he obsessed over hunting and weapon skills, and radiated discomfort: “I was basically being looked at like a piece of meat.” (Desiree Smith, 20:26)
• Early criminality: Admits to stealing guns as a teenager and carrying a pistol by 14 (22:05).
• Key pivotal moment (23:10–26:44): At age 14, Keyes tortures and kills his sister’s cat in front of peers—who react with horror. This is the moment he recognizes he is “different,” finding pleasure and power in cruelty.
  • “That single moment is what created the Israel Keyes that we know today.” (Josh Hallmark, 25:46)
  • After being ostracized, isolates further, and begins hiding his violent behavior.

5. Is Upbringing Enough to Explain Violence? (28:57–30:53)

• Dr. Ward and guests note that similar backgrounds do not always produce killers; John Smith, who grew up in a comparable environment, became a public servant.
• Insight: The “recipe” for someone like Keyes may require both innate personality traits (psychopathy) and environmental enablers—violence, hatred, lack of empathy, and lack of accountability.

6. Keyes’s First Known Crime and Sexual Motivation (31:18–41:24)

• At 19, Keyes attempts his first murder: assaults a teenage girl near the Deschutes river in Oregon, planning to kill her and dispose of the body in a remote restroom.
• Victim’s calm, strategic behavior saves her life; Keyes lets her go but regrets it for years (34:54–41:24).
  • “For years after that... I kept telling myself I should have killed her and... really beat myself up about that.” (Keyes, 41:24)
  • After this, never lets victims survive or “personalize” with him again (Det. Jeff Bell, 41:48).
• Keyes describes wrestling with his motivations; at first, rationalizes his urge for violence as part of “Satanic ritual,” then realizes it’s simply what he wants.
  • “It was just because I wanted to do it.” (Keyes, 37:17)
• Discussion of potential links between sexual violence, psychopathy, and prior abuse. Interviewee Desiree discusses endemic abuse in the community, but no clear evidence exists that Keyes himself was explicitly abused.

7. Environmental Abuse and Lack of Protection (38:39–40:51)

• Desiree Smith courageously describes her own childhood abuse and community norms, which protected abusers rather than victims.
  • “What happens in a man’s family is his business.” (Desiree Smith, 40:38)
• Host notes: Childhood abuse alone cannot explain psychopathy—but can contribute to creating a sexual predator.

8. Key Learning Moment for Keyes: Evolution as a Killer (41:24–42:19)

• After the failed attack, Keyes learns to avoid empathy and never leave survivors.
• His psychological insight and ability to reflect on his actions make him even more dangerous: A rare case of a self-aware, methodical serial killer.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Keyes’s secrecy and normalcy:
  “You would have no idea that he could have committed the crimes that he committed because he seemed like such a normal guy. But he was the face of evil.” (Dr. Michelle Ward, 00:45)

• On the pivotal moment of difference:
  “That single moment is what created the Israel Keyes that we know today.” (Josh Hallmark, 25:46)

• On community values:
  “If you were not sold into the Babylonian system, which is what they called having a birth certificate or Social Security number...” (John Smith, 11:23)

• On facing evil:
  “There’s the person that everybody knows and loves, and then there’s the guy who spends every waking hour planning on how he’s going to kill someone.” (Josh Hallmark, 42:54)

• On what abuse reveals about the community:
  “Every once in a while in these Christian identity groups... it would come out that one of the dads was physically or sexually abusive... and the rest of the congregation would come around and protect him...” (Desiree Smith, 39:49)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:41–01:59 – Intro to Israel Keyes and his criminal profile
• 02:07–05:49 – FBI confession: Samantha Koenig case
• 05:55–16:32 – Israel Keyes’s childhood and religious upbringing
• 23:10–26:44 – The cat incident: Keyes’s psychopathic self-awareness
• 31:18–42:19 – First known attack and the psychology of evolving violence
• 38:39–40:51 – Testimony on endemic abuse in isolationist religious communities
• 41:24–42:19 – How Keyes learned from failed violence

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Tone & Style

The episode is investigative, probing, and often chilling, blending forensic psychology, true crime narrative, and personal testimony. It balances clear-eyed clinical analysis with empathy, especially in sensitive disclosures. The hosts and guests convey a sense of urgency and gravity as they try to understand the roots of monstrous behavior—without reducing complex causes to mere stereotypes or single factors.

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For Further Listening

• Season 1: “Why Can’t We Talk About Amanda’s Mom?”
• Season 2: “Who Killed Jennifer Judd?”

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Note: This summary omits ads, extended episode credits, and standard podcast outro content, focusing exclusively on substantive discussion and storytelling.

Transcript

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

This podcast explores themes of murder, rape, child abuse and racism. Listener discretion is advised. When we hear the term serial killer, we may think of a trail of victims sparking mass panic. Police investigations lasting years, lurid speculation in the press. But what about a killer so methodical, so terrifyingly discreet, that nobody is looking for him? From ID and Aeromedia, I'm criminal psychologist Dr. Michelle Ward, and this is Mind of a the Cross Country Killer. Chapter one. Israel Keyes.

[Israel Keyes]

Israel Keys is the most prolific serial killer you've never heard of.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

You would have no idea that he could have committed the crimes that he committed because he seemed like such a normal guy. But he was the face of evil.

[Josh Hallmark]

He roamed the country and quite meticulously planned all of his attacks, sometimes years in advance.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

He took them both out to the farmhouse and took Mr. Currier downstairs, restrained him, and then took Mrs. Currier upstairs to a room that he had set up with his ligatures and restraints.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Israel Keys is a deadly predator who strikes from the shadows, brutalizes and butchers his victims, and then covers his tracks so efficiently that no one knows he's out there getting away with it.

[Israel Keyes]

The only person who knows about what I'm telling you, the kind of things I'm telling you, is me.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

I'm going to analyze FBI recordings of the killer's own twisted and highly detailed confessions and speak to the detectives who tried to keep up with his spiraling body count to attempt to understand why he killed and how his crimes went unnoticed for so long.

[Israel Keyes]

I have lots more stories to tell if you're interested.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

It's spring 2012 in the attorney's office in Anchorage, Alaska. Local PD, the FBI and various lawyers sit around the board table. The focus of their attention is the prime suspect in the disappearance of 18 year old Samantha Koenig. She's been missing for nearly two months and her family, friends and the entire state are desperate to know where she is. Israel Keys has been tight lipped since his arrest two weeks ago, but investigators are certain he's killed her.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Officer Bell, APD going on tape. It's March 30th.

[Interviewer / U.S. Attorney's Office]

U.S. attorney's office.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

After 17 days in custody, Keyes finally agrees to talk.

[Interviewer / U.S. Attorney's Office]

All right, Israel, it's okay with you. We'll ask some questions, okay?

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

The tall and wiry 34 year old with greased back hair and dark eyes has a captive audience. Sitting across the table is Detective Jeff Bell.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

I think we had some expectations that he was going to talk to us about the disappearance of Samantha Koenig, but none of us were Prepared for the detail in which he provided to us not only about her kidnapping, but about the. What he did to her and her death.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

What you are about to hear is not the voice of an actor. It's very real and it's chilling.

[Interviewer / U.S. Attorney's Office]

You just described to me the putting her body in pieces in the lake around February 22nd, 23rd.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Yeah.

[Israel Keyes]

First day was the head, legs, and the arms of Samantha Cony. Yep. And the second day, the torso.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Very kind of eerie watching him react to his own telling of this story. He was constantly, like, rubbing his arms like he was chilled about what he was saying. He was definitely having a physical reaction to talking about what he had had done.

[Israel Keyes]

When I robbed her, she was, you know, very cooperative.

[John Smith]

And.

[Israel Keyes]

I knew from the minute she walked out of that coffee stand, I was gonna kill her.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

He's giving you a lot of information. What effect does this have on you?

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Well, it's both mentally and physically draining, honestly. I mean, none of us in that room had ever heard anything face to face with someone to that detail of crime. Because most people, when they confess to crimes, they leave out details. He left no details out.

[Israel Keyes]

Then I tied knots in the ends of the rope and I screwed her, screwed the rope down to the floor, floor of the wall.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Did she ever struggle for you or did she just let you do that?

[Israel Keyes]

She knew. She knew at that point I. I put my head right up to her ear and I said, you knew this was coming.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

Once he told us the details of what he did to Samantha and how he disposed of her remains, we were all very confident that he had other victims.

[Israel Keyes]

I don't know if I want to tell any more stories today, but I have a lot more stories to tell.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Over the next seven months, the FBI hears intimate details about Keez's life and his murders. There is something undeniably chilling about hearing a killer's voice, describing his thought process and reliving his experiences. But it also offers a unique opportunity to get inside his mind, to try to understand who Keyes is and why he kills. I need to start at the beginning, but this is not easy. Israel Keys was raised without a birth certificate or formal education. Cut off from regular society. 1983. Colville. Heidi and John Jeffrey Keyes have just moved from Utah to the forest of northeast Washington with 4 year old son Israel and his older sister. They were Mormons, but have now rejected that religion and are searching for a new way of life. They find it here, living off grid in nature and attending an extreme fundamentalist Christian church. It is in this isolated world where Keyes spends his childhood right up until his late teens. I really need a deeper understanding of what goes on within this cut off society. But these are people who harbor an intense distrust of outsiders like me. So I'm incredibly fortunate to meet two people who grew up in this covert community. John and Desiree Smith are a married couple who still live near Colville, Washington, in the area where Israel Keyes was raised. John, can you please give us an idea of where Colville is and what it's like?

[John Smith]

So the city of colville is actually 40 miles south of us. We live just tucked up right under the Canadian border. There's a lot of space, there's a lot of nature, there is a lot of, of beauty. But there's also isolation. And that can be great for people who want to be close to nature. Like, you know, myself and my family, we live on a ranch. We, we like that sort of thing. But it can also create space for religious extremists. My grandfather, one of my grandfather's best friends, was one of the leaders of the Aryan nations, which was a very strong neo Nazi white supremacist organization. And so growing up in that environment, I had a lot of experience with the Christian Identity movement, with white supremacy, and with the associated antisemitism.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

It's through this Christian Identity movement that John will meet Israel Keys. But what is Christian Identity?

[John Smith]

Christian Identity fundamentally believes that the world is ruled by a group of Jewish banker elitists who manipulate and control the entire world to their ends. Then you have the other races, who they view as subhuman. They're closer to animals than they are to humans. Where the Jews are satanic, this will culminate in a great battle at the end of the world where white people essentially kill everybody else and take over the planet and either subjugate or eliminate anyone and everyone else.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

So this is the sort of negative and hostile belief system that's being fed to Israel gays.

[John Smith]

It was a culture of violence. What was inherent to it is dehumanizing those who don't share your individual beliefs. And then a part of the conversation was how destruction of those people was righteous and how it was good and how it was benevolent.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

John left Christian Identity behind a long time ago, as did his wife Desiree, who was raised in the same environment. And we can't confirm whether Keyes and his family were members of the Christian Identity movement. But it's at their meeting place where Desiree first makes contact.

[Desiree Smith]

I first met the Keys family because when I was A young teenager, I was attending the Saturday meetings at the arc. The ARC was a large building where we could all be together with these like minded folks. And their family visited a couple of times. And so they had several girls similar to my age. And so that was. It was neat to meet the girls and to kind of interact with them a little bit and become a little bit friendly with them. And that was my first experience with the family.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Israel did not have a Social Security number or a brain birth certificate. How unusual was that in that area at the time?

[Desiree Smith]

Not unusual at all. Not unusual. What I understood at the time from getting to know the sisters a little bit was that they were all born at home without any medical supervision. They didn't have birth certificates, they were never given birth certificates, never given Social Security numbers. And so. So basically the government had no idea they existed.

[John Smith]

It was a common thing in those days to discuss. Oh yeah, well, I've never had a Social Security number and I've never had a birth certificate. And so it was viewed as like a status of righteousness because that was.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Such a point of value. It was a flex.

[John Smith]

Oh yeah, because you were a higher social order if you were. If you were not sold into the Babylonian system, which is what they called having a birth certificate or Social Security number.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Already I'm wondering what effect this has in the mind of a child. He's learning that society outside his family is wrong and bad and that by isolating themselves they are superior to the regular people who follow society's rules. If Israel is being raised with such radically antisocial principles, then it makes sense that he will continue to challenge and rebel against established rules and boundaries. But a serial killer, it does not make. It's the early 1990s and Heidi and John Jeffrey Keyes are raising their growing family out in the Washington woods. When one of their daughters gets engaged, they hold a wedding shower and invite guests from their insular community. Desiree Smith is one of them.

[Desiree Smith]

I was probably, I want to say I was 14 or 15 at that time. The driveway was incredibly long and very bumpy up the side of a mountain. And it didn't really feel like we were going anywhere. But eventually we ended up at this little ramshackle house. I believe Jeff built that house for the them and it was pretty rough looking. There were chickens running around in the yard area and on the driveway.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

And did everybody sleep there together in that little ramshackle.

[Desiree Smith]

I wondered because there were so many of them and so many children. I did not have any idea how they all fit in there. There were some little shacks kind of around the property. So, you know, I didn't know if some of them were sleeping in the shacks or somehow they all piled into the house.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

It's unclear how many Keys children there are at this point, but Heidi and John Jeffrey eventually have 10.

[Desiree Smith]

A couple of the girls were close to my age, so, you know, going in the house with them and it was small and they didn't have electricity. I didn't realize it at first, but then I noticed all of the walls had oil lamps on the walls instead of light sockets from the ceiling. So that kind of let me know pretty quickly that there was no electricity, no running water, nothing like that.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

So they're kind of off the grid, completely off grid.

[John Smith]

There were people like the Keys that viewed their rugged survivalist lifestyle as a point of righteousness on their behalf because they weren't interacting with the system and they weren't slaves to all of those necessities, but that they were, they were free and independent and living as God intended.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

And so did they stand out because they were choosing that unusual lifestyle?

[Desiree Smith]

They did. So the girls were not allowed to wear anything but dresses, and the mother wore a head covering and dresses all the time. They, they were very socially awkward. You could tell that they hadn't spent a lot of time with out the outside world or with other people in social situations.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Even in this isolationist culture, it sounds like Israel Keys's family takes it to a whole other level. Imagine a five year old kid with no running water, no electricity and no heating, and the winters in Washington and how halfway up a mountain, it's such a harsh and unforgiving environment to choose for your children. I am very interested to learn more about Israel's parents, so I asked John Smith for his impressions.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Did anything stand out to you in terms of how Heidi and Jeff were parenting the kids?

[John Smith]

When it came to the way that Jeff spoke of, reflected on or, or interacted with women, it was very derogatory. At best, all women would be treated like, like children. But at worst, it was far worse than that. When it came to the girls, they were just treated as if they were stupid. They, they were irrelevant. They were a nuisance. There was no valuing, there was no paternal affection, there was no congratulation or even value of them.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Israel is growing up in an environment where there is a violent distrust of everyone outside his family's belief system. But he's also in this extreme patriarchy where even within the circle of equals, women are to be dismissed as irrelevant and perhaps violently so. So how did this environment affect Israel? I take Desiree back to the Keys house in the woods.

[Desiree Smith]

I noticed Israel. He stood out absolutely, partly because he was a little older than I was. He was fairly tall and lean and not fit. Physically unattractive at the time. He didn't look very different from what I was used to. He always wore camel pants and he had, you know, a knife on his belt and things like that. That wasn't too unusual for what I grew up around. What stood out to me when I first met him was he was pretty aloof. He was very antisocial. He kind of was lurking in the background a lot. And it didn't just seem like he was shy. I'd been around a lot of shy kids. He just seemed strange and a little bit creepy.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Keys never gives a full account of his childhood, but he drops hints as to how he spends his days.

[Israel Keyes]

12 or 14. I started building rafts and stuff like that, Rope bridges and all that. I used to hang out in the woods by myself. So I would just, you know, be walking around in the woods. I would hike for miles. I knew I knew every advantage of that area.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Desiree remembers Israel as a loner hanging out on the fringes. But I want to know if she ever got closer to him.

[Desiree Smith]

I did, unfortunately, yes. I think I was right around 15 years old. I must have been the Ark, because it was used often as a community building. A lot of the kids in the community wanted to get together and raise money to buy things. So we decided we wanted to put on a box social. And back in the day, a box social was when all of the girls were. Would make special picnic lunches and decorate a fancy box or a basket and put the picnic inside of it. And then you'd have an auction where all the young men would bid on these boxes, and if you were lucky, you would get the box of the girl you might have been a little bit sweet on. And so the one who bid on my box and won it was Israel Keys. There were tables all set up in the room, one on one tables. And so you would sit down and have your lunch. And basically it was a date.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Wow.

[Desiree Smith]

It just. It started off a little awkward because he was very socially awkward. But then it just started getting more uncomfortable and more uncomfortable because he couldn't. He couldn't have a normal, pleasant conversation. He talked about hunting and he talked about fishing, but. But he didn't talk about it in the way a regular hunter or angler would he talked about he was learning how to be a survivalist and evade, you know, the government and, you know, there's going to come a time when, you know, they're going to be after him. And he talked about how, you know, he learned how to live off the land and what, you know, what animals to kill. And he would kill this animal and he tried to kill that other animal. And it sounded more. More like he was enjoying that in just a weird way.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Just a little aside, since we do know he became a prolific serial killer. How scary that you were basically on.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

A date with him as a young.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Teenager, listening to him perfect his outdoor skills of slaughtering animals and enjoying it. Did he seem intelligent? I mean, obviously he's boasting about his skill set, but did he come across as smart?

[Desiree Smith]

He seemed very intelligent.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

And did you get the sense he was attracted to you or hitting on you during that date?

[Desiree Smith]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

And what was that like?

[Desiree Smith]

Very uncomfortable. I was basically being looked at like a piece of meat. So, yeah, it was pretty uncomfortable.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

It won't come as a surprise to learn that Desiree and Israel never had a second date. I asked John Smith for his impression of the teenager.

[John Smith]

So Israel defined himself in his conversation as an outdoorsman, as a survivalist. So his flexes, the thing that he would tell you was all about, you know, I killed a deer with nothing but my survival knife, and I went out and built a shelter in the woods where nobody knows where I am or what I'm doing, and I disappeared for a weekend out in the woods and survived and without anything but myself.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Did you get a sense of what.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Israel's relationship was with guns?

[John Smith]

Yeah. Well, again, if you were Christian identity, and if you viewed that there would be a violent civil war in your lifetime, which most did then guns were a part of your lifestyle. When Israel spoke about guns themselves, one thing that struck me in that conversation is he talked about guns, plural. And then he also talked about having handguns, which in Washington state at that time, you had to be 21 to own handguns. So how did he get those?

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

It's an interesting question, and Keyes answers it in the FBI interviews.

[Israel Keyes]

I used to carry a. A pistol all the time, from the time I was about 14. I mean, by the time I was 14, I was basically the same size I am now. I didn't really look 14. And so I could get away with, like, the houses, the guns I took from, houses I broke into, I could get away with selling them without anybody knowing about it, without my parents knowing about It. So I had a lot of guns, and I would always carry a gun.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

So he gets his guns by breaking into houses and stealing them. And while firearms are condoned by his family, their son's blossoming delinquency is certainly not.

[Israel Keyes]

I got in trouble a few times around that age. People found out about some of the stuff I did. Like my parents and parents of other kids who would hang out with me, they would find out about some of the stuff I did.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

As Keyes recalls this teenage misbehavior, he suddenly starts talking about a pivotal moment. It's 1992, and Israel is in the woods near his house.

[Israel Keyes]

I've known since I was 14 that there was. There were things that. That I thought were normal and that were okay, that nobody else seems to.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Think are normal and okay.

[Israel Keyes]

When I was 14, and there was some friends staying with us, and there was cat of ours that was always getting into the trash and was my sister's cat. And I told her at the time, I was like, if that cat gets into the trash again, I'm going to kill it. And. And so there was this kid and some of the other. Some of his. I think maybe one of my sisters and one of his sisters. We all went up into the woods and I had the cat with me.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

It's at this point that Keys goes into graphic description about how he tortures the cat and then shoots it in front of his friends. What happens next is important.

[Israel Keyes]

I didn't really react. I mean, I actually kind of laughed a little, I think, because of the way it was running around the tree. But then I looked over at everybody else, and the kid who was about my age, was with me.

[John Smith]

He was.

[Israel Keyes]

He was throwing up. Like, he was, like, really, I don't know. Traumatized, I guess you would say. And. And he told me. He told his dad about it.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

And then.

[Israel Keyes]

Of course, his dad talked to my parents about it. And that was pretty much the last time anybody went in the woods with me. I learned my lesson, and that's when I just started doing stuff by myself. Pretty much exclusively.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Israel Keys story about torturing the cat is really interesting. Not the act itself, but his reaction afterward. To dig a little deeper into this moment. I want to talk to somebody who's been researching Keyes for nine years and counting. Investigative journalist Josh Hallmark. This moment with the cat is when Israel Keyes and recognizes that there's something different about him. What he did to that cat disgusted his peers. What's your impression of how that might have affected him?

[Josh Hallmark]

I Think it was probably one of the most important moments in his life. I think for him, it's. He realizes he's different. He also realizes the joy he gets from inflicting pain on others. He also realizes the power it gives him. So it's kind of like his entire philosophy is born in this moment of I have to feign care and humanity, but also I am invigorated by pain and power and control. And I think that that single moment is what created the Israel Keys that we know today.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

I love your take on that.

[Josh Hallmark]

He even said, that's where I realized, like, I had to present a different version of myself to the people around me.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

It is so rare to hear a serial killer acknowledge that moment when he knew he was different. Israel might not have the word for it because. But he understands that he's a psychopath. His empathetic responses are very different to those of his peers in neuroscience. The area of the brain responsible for empathetic responses, among other things, is called the limbic system. And studies show that in the psychopathic brain, a structure within the limbic system called the amygdala can be smaller or malformed, which could indicate malfunction and impaired emotions. Now, we have no such medical information on Israel Keys, but the way he processes the killing of the cat reveals a very typical coming of age moment in a fledgling psychopath's life. And as Josh says, this understanding sets about a change in behavior. It doesn't change the way Keys feels about torturing cats, only that now this must be a pretty private activity. He has crossed a line even in his strange community. But I have to wonder how much of his upbringing, the violence and hatred, fostered this way of thinking. I want to hear Josh Hallmark's take on this.

[Josh Hallmark]

You know, you're going to know way more about this than me, but I always consider it like in that type of community, an isolationist community where you're taught not to value other human life. You know, I think it's a easy line to cross of killing someone to get what you need or think you need or to make a statement. I think it's an extremist religion with very extreme, pointed, hateful views.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

You're surrounded by guns, hate, and if you happen to be born with a propensity to hurt or you don't have whatever protective factors that we have, like consciousness, like conscience, then it's the perfect breeding ground.

[Josh Hallmark]

I think that's just a recipe for disaster.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

In a world like Israel Keys's, a psychopath is less likely to be noticed and less likely to be steered away from unacceptable behavior. Here's John Smith again, talking from personal experience.

[John Smith]

I believe that a belief system that chose to reject empathy and rules and moral guidelines and chose to adopt philosophies like antisemitism, like racism, I believe that that's what allowed Israel Keys to prosper.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

I'm thinking about the interviews that I just had with Desiree and John Smith as I'm cooking dinner. And I'm thinking about how it actually distills down one of the most fun, fundamental problems we have when considering how somebody becomes a serial killer. And this interview almost sounded like an experiment. You've got John Smith and Israel Keys, who are arguably from the same environment, not exactly the same, but they're both from incredibly extreme, racist religions. They're raised in an environment where violence was normalized, where the state is considered the enemy. You can't trust doctors, teachers, anybody who isn't of your same religion, your same community, your same color. So they're on a similar pathway. And then their trajectories go in antithetical, opposite directions. You've got John Smith, who becomes completely pro social. He even becomes a senator so that he can serve the people around him. And then you've got Israel, who becomes one of the most sadistic, violent serial killers of all times. And it really highlights how you can't, as much as one wants to explain violence simply by pointing to a bad childhood, pointing a bad environment. And we do that because then we.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Feel like we can control it.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

We have to dig deeper. We have to go to the science, we have to go to places that aren't comfortable to truly understand how somebody becomes someone like Israel Keys.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

It's the spring of 1997, and the Keys family sell the land in Washington and move east. The first in a series of moves over the next few years. Israel's father uses some of the money to buy a rundown house in Oregon, and Israel is tasked with renovating it. It's an opportunity to develop his growing skills as a carpenter and land. But there are other opportunities, too.

[Israel Keyes]

When I was living in Oregon, I was working on this house for my dad. And there was this river that was near the house.

[John Smith]

There was.

[Israel Keyes]

A lot of people would go down there, a pretty remote area, but there were beaches and stuff along the river where people would go and hang out for the day and stuff.

[Interviewer / U.S. Attorney's Office]

So did you get away with something there?

[Israel Keyes]

Never even got recorded.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Wow. Keys admits to the FBI that he did something to one of the people hanging out at the River. It's the earliest crime that he describes in full detail. Detective Jeff Bell sat across the table from Israel Keys throughout the entire 40 hours of the FBI interview. And he's going to take us into that room. Describe his voice to me.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

You know, I think that the weirdest thing and the creepiest thing about his voice was his continuous laugh at entirely inappropriate times. I mean, if you, if you've listened to the tapes, you hear him do that laugh. I think that he. I originally thought it was a nervousness and it might have been, but I also think that he knew what he had just said was shocking the conscience of us. And I think he liked that.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

God, that's so creepy.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Let's start with firstly his, his first attempt at killing that took place.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

I think it's the Deschutes river in Oregon.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

In Moppin, Oregon. Correct.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

It's 1997 and Israel Keyes is 19 years old.

[Israel Keyes]

Oh, there were these like a remote restrooms in these just random little beach areas along the river. It was a small bathroom. It didn't get used very much. They probably only cleaned it out maybe once a year or something.

[Interviewer / U.S. Attorney's Office]

So what were your thoughts?

[Israel Keyes]

I was waiting for someone who was pretty small because I was gonna dump them down in the tank. It was really dark tanks and they probably wouldn't have been fired, found for a year or something.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Keys describes waiting for an opportune moment. He has no particular victim in mind, just whoever comes along.

[Israel Keyes]

There's like, I don't know, four, four or five of them. The river was pretty fast in that area. And the ones that you went around it, you couldn't really see it. Her friends went around the corner and I just grabbed. Jumped out of the bushes and grabbed her. She was like the last one in her group. I don't know how old she was, but she could have been anywhere from 14 to 18.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

His victim is totally random. She's just a girl in the wrong place at the wrong time. This sort of chance selection of victims is not unheard of in serial killers, but it is unusual.

[Israel Keyes]

I had her tied up. It was like one of those handicap accessible bathrooms that had the bars along the walls. I had her tied to those.

[Interviewer / U.S. Attorney's Office]

How was she tied?

[Israel Keyes]

I had once around her neck to one of the bars and then I.

[Josh Hallmark]

Had her.

[Israel Keyes]

Arms tied out so she can move yours.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Keys sexually assaults the teenager, but doesn't go through with his plan to kill her.

[Interviewer]

So what do you think stopped you from taking it to that level?

[Israel Keyes]

She, she was just really scared and kept saying she Wasn't going to tell anybody.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

And.

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah, I don't know. I almost did.

[John Smith]

I just.

[Interviewer]

Had you thought about how you were going to do it if you did it?

[Israel Keyes]

Yeah, I was. I was going to strangle it.

[Interviewer / U.S. Attorney's Office]

Do you remember anything that she said to you that stuck in your mind?

[Israel Keyes]

I mean, I knew what she was doing. She was trying to make it seem like it wasn't a big deal and like she was okay with it.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

And.

[Israel Keyes]

I mean, she was pretty smart because it worked. I just told her to, you know, get back on her tube and go down the river.

[Interviewer]

Let's go.

[Israel Keyes]

Like I said, it was pretty fast.

[John Smith]

So.

[Israel Keyes]

I'm sure her friends were wondering why she was so far behind.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Detective Jeff Bell follows up on Israel's confession. Were you able to corroborate the story about the girl on the Deschutes River?

[Detective Jeff Bell]

No, we. We tried. We had a pretty specific time frame, pretty specific area, but, you know, that, that. That person may not be alive, may probably didn't hear or see any public service announcements the FBI put out.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

So Israel's first attempt at murder doesn't.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

Go to plan, partly because the victim.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Is smart and talks to him like a friend. And this disarms him because he doesn't anticipate it. But there is another reason he fails, which I want to explore. What he had planned was a ritualistic sacrifice.

[Israel Keyes]

I was into a lot of weird stuff back then. I thought I was a Satanist. I thought that if I, you know, did all. All the things that these books said and, you know, did all the right rituals or whatever, that I would get some kind of confirmation that there was Satan or that I was doing something special.

[Interviewer]

Did you talk to her about that and what you were going to do or talk to her about the Satanic piece?

[Israel Keyes]

Honestly, I like. Once it actually started, there were.

[Josh Hallmark]

A.

[Israel Keyes]

Lot of other issues that I had to deal with. I mean, if it had been for my intentions to rape her, then I would never take it somewhere. I was just using that as justification or a reason or something. And that wasn't really the reason I wanted to do it. It was just because I wanted to do it. And then so once I kind of came to terms with that, that there wasn't a higher power, if you will, that I was going to do it for. It was just something I wanted to do, that made it a lot easier.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

One thing that jumps out in listening to Israel Keys is how self aware he is. He is trying to understand why he's so different from other people and what drives his urges. And in the moment, he realizes it's not some external force, it's not God, it's not Satan, it's just him. It's his choice to act on these desires. He also appears to understand that his primary motivation is sexual. While psychopathy can explain how he's able to commit the violent crimes, there could be another element driving the sexual motivation of the crime. Research has connected sexual offenses to previous sexual abuse. So during my conversation with Desiree Smith, I ask her whether Israel was the victim of such abuse. And she doesn't know. But she does have something else to say. It's upsetting, but it is important.

[Desiree Smith]

I was never protected, never protected by the other people around. My first sexual interaction was actually at the age of five, and the man was 45 at the time.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

I'm sorry, Desiree.

[Desiree Smith]

It took me a long time to kind of work through that. And it wasn't until I think I was about to 2015 that I actually confided in someone what had happened. This friend then told my grandfather, because, you know, he was supposed to protect me, right? He was, he was the family patriarch. But instead of protecting me, he sided with the person who had done it. And he. And he told me that I needed to keep my mouth shut and that I needed to just be quiet about it. And it, it was kind of a life shattering moment.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

I'm so moved by Desiree's honesty, her bravery and her grace. What she says next really helps us to understand the danger that Israel Keys grew up around.

[Desiree Smith]

I know for a fact that most of the kids that I grew up around were likely abused in one way or another, whether it was neglect. Neglect was incredibly common. Emotional abuse, physical abuse, and sometimes sexual abuse. And every once in a while in these Christian identity groups and churches, it would come out that one of the dads was physically or sexually abusive to his children. And you know what would happen is that the rest of the congregation would come around and protect him and talk about how what happens in a man's family is his business.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

So it wouldn't necessarily be denying the belief that it happened. It would be like, well, if that happens, that's up to him.

[Desiree Smith]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Narrator / Host Commentary]

That's disgusting. Thank you for sharing that. I think it paints an important picture of the environment that or what it was going on at the time.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

To be clear, being sexually abused as a child cannot make you a psychopath. But could it play a part in the development of a sexual predator? Sure. We may never know whether Keys was a victim of sexual abuse. As a child. And there are plenty of serial killers who had nearly perfect childhoods, just as there are paragons of virtue who suffered appalling abuse like Desiree. Going back to Keyes's first attempt at murder, I want to know where his mind was.

[Israel Keyes]

I don't remember if I was worried about DNA at the time, but I was convinced that, you know, there was, like, some big investigation trying to find out who had done this. For years after that, for like, two years after that, I kept telling myself I should have killed her and, like, really beat myself up about that.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

I asked Detective Bell how he thinks this failed attempt affected Keyes.

[Detective Jeff Bell]

He did tell us that he essentially let her talk him out of the rest of what he had planned. He regretted that because of the chances of getting caught. He worried about that, and he said he never made that mistake again. And what he meant by that was, I think, twofold. He never let anybody get away from him without being killed, but he also never let anybody personalize with him.

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

What we know from studying serial killers is that early failure is not a discouragement. Rather, these attempts at murder form part of a learning process. And Israel Keys is a very fast learner. Coming up this season on Mind of a Monster, the Cross Country Killer.

[Israel Keyes]

I was hogtied on the ground.

[Josh Hallmark]

I'm screaming at him, yelling at him, you know, like, cut me up, cut me out. There's the person that everybody knows and loves, and then there's the guy who spends every waking hour planning on how he's going to kill someone.

[Israel Keyes]

That's where I got my chicken, I guess, was being able to live two different lives and have no one have a clue.

[Desiree Smith]

What did I miss?

[Israel Keyes]

I asked myself that I don't know how many times. What did I miss?

[Dr. Michelle Ward]

Mind of a Monster, the Cross Country Killer is produced by Arrow Media, a Fremantle Company for ID. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Ward. You can follow our show wherever you get your podcasts. And we'd love it if you could take a second to leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts.