Who Killed JFK?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Who Killed JFK?" by iHeartPodcasts

Episode Title: Who Killed JFK?
Release Date: January 10, 2024
Hosts: Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien

In the commemorative episode marking the 60th anniversary of President John F. Kennedy's assassination, hosts Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien delve deep into America's most enduring murder mystery. Through extensive interviews with CIA officials, journalists, eyewitnesses, and a former Secret Service agent, the episode unravels new evidence and explores the many layers surrounding JFK’s tragic death.

---

Introduction: Revisiting the Mystery

[01:46] Rob Reiner:
The episode opens in 1975 at the Village Voice newspaper, where reporter Dick Russell receives an anonymous letter naming Adolf Scheppy Wiedenbach as the mastermind behind JFK's assassination. This revelation sets the stage for decades of investigation and speculation.

[04:12] Soledad O’Brien:
"So this is who killed JFK? 60 years later, what can we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history?"

---

Unveiling the Players: Motives and Connections

[05:35] Soledad O’Brien:
The hosts outline three primary groups with possible motives for assassinating President Kennedy:

1. Cuban Exiles: Aggrieved by Castro's takeover of Cuba, seeking to restore anti-Castro sentiments.
2. The Mafia: Aiming to reclaim control over their illicit enterprises, particularly casinos and hotels.
3. Hardliners in the Military and Intelligence Community: Frustrated with Kennedy's perceived softness on communism.

[06:21] Soledad O’Brien:
"You'll remember, Operation Northwoods was the concept developed by the CIA and the military to stage a false flag attack."

---

The CIA's Shadow: Operation Northwoods and ZR Rifle

[07:05] Dick Russell:
Russell discusses "Operation Northwoods," a CIA plan to commit false-flag operations to justify military action against Cuba. This parallels the "ZR Rifle" program led by CIA agent Bill Harvey, which aimed to eliminate world leaders deemed problematic.

[07:22] Soledad O’Brien:
"A201 is a file that the CIA keeps on someone they're interested in."

[08:07] Danny Trehov:
Introduces Colonel William Bishop, a former CIA black ops operative, who simplifies the assassination locations and shooter count based on forensic evidence.

---

Identifying the Shooters: Multiple Assassin Theory

[08:29] Rob Reiner:
Reiner presents a theory of at least four shooters positioned strategically around Dealey Plaza, challenging the lone gunman narrative of Lee Harvey Oswald.

[09:37] Rob Reiner:
"Tosh Plumley was positioned on the south knoll of Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting. He said a shot definitely came from that area."

[10:04] Dick Russell:
"With all of the information now available to us, we can name four assassins who were all present in Dallas that day."

---

Profiles of the Assassins

1. Herminio Diaz Garcia (Fabian Escalante) –
A former Cuban intelligence officer and gangster involved in plots against Latin American leaders. [14:31]

2. Jean Swetra –
A French assassin with CIA ties, deported from Dallas immediately after the assassination. [15:14]

3. Charles Nicoletti (Chucky the Typewriter) –
A Chicago mob hitman connected to Sam Giancana, murdered before he could testify about the assassination. [15:47]

4. Jack Cannon –
Operated under General Charles Willoughby in the CIA's Z-unit, directly involved in the assassination plot. [16:12]

---

The Orchestrators: CIA's Role and Key Figures

Bill Harvey and General Charles Willoughby –
Harvey, heading the ZR Rifle program, and Willoughby, a staunch anti-communist, collaborated with the Mafia and Cuban exiles to execute the plot. [22:12]

[18:07] Rob Reiner:
"None of this happens without the knowledge of Allen Dulles."

Allen Dulles –
As CIA Director, Dulles was aware of Operation Northwoods and likely sanctioned such covert operations, maintaining secrecy to protect the agency's involvement. [18:12]

---

Lee Harvey Oswald: The Patsy

[19:05] Soledad O’Brien:
"So, Oswald wasn't a damn thing in the world but a decoy."

[19:32] Soledad O’Brien:
"We started this investigation with Lee Harvey Oswald famously saying, 'I'm just a patsy.'"

Rob Reiner and Dick Russell argue that Oswald was deliberately positioned as a scapegoat, manipulated by CIA operatives James Angleton and David Atlee Phillips to take the fall for the assassination, thereby obscuring the true perpetrators. This manipulation is seen as a strategic move to ensure that the CIA and FBI would close ranks, hindering any external investigation efforts.

---

The Quest for Truth and Modern Implications

[27:55] Soledad O’Brien:
"To this day, a US President was assassinated and it's likely that the real perpetrators were not held accountable."

The hosts reflect on how unresolved questions about JFK’s assassination continue to fuel public distrust in government institutions. New evidence, such as recent testimonies and declassified documents, keep the conversation alive, indicating that complete closure remains elusive.

[31:54] Rob Reiner:
"I hope they continue to demand the truth from their government, and not just about what happened to President Kennedy, but as a way of coming to grips with our past."

---

Conclusion: The Enduring Legacy of JFK's Assassination

Rob Reiner emphasizes that the assassination was not merely a historical event but a pivotal moment that reshaped American society and governance. The unresolved nature of the case serves as a cautionary tale about power, secrecy, and accountability within government agencies.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Rob Reiner [05:35]:
  "The Cuban exiles were angry that Castro took over Cuba. They wanted the country back. The Mafia wanted their hotels and their casinos back. And the hardliners in the military and the intelligence community were furious at Kennedy."

• Dick Russell [10:06]:
  "With all of the information now available to us, we can name four assassins who were all present in Dallas that day."

• Rob Reiner [19:43]:
  "If you look at assassinations of world leaders throughout history... Oswald says, 'I'm just a patsy.'"

• Soledad O’Brien [27:15]:
  "The murder of President Kennedy seems to be a moment where trust was replaced with growing skepticism."

---

Final Thoughts: "Who Killed JFK?" masterfully combines investigative journalism with historical analysis, offering listeners a compelling narrative that challenges established theories and introduces groundbreaking evidence. By dissecting the roles of various actors and uncovering hidden connections, Rob Reiner and Soledad O’Brien provide a nuanced perspective on one of America's most perplexing mysteries, reaffirming its significance in shaping national consciousness and skepticism toward leadership.

Transcript

[Soledad O'Brien]

To have a murder as gruesome as.

[Rob Reiner]

Jay Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death, her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

They've never found a weapon, Never made sense.

[Danny Trehov]

Still doesn't make sense.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

She found out she was pregnant in jail.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The person who did it is still out there.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or where you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Trehov and Step into the Flames of Fright, an anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to nocturnum on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports, and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Rob Reiner]

It's 1975. We're in New York City at the offices of the Village Voice newspaper. Shaggy haired reporters hack away at their typewriters and chat around the coffee machine. You can almost smell the smoke hanging in the air. One reporter, Dick Russell, is going through his mail and he comes across an anonymous letter.

[Dick Russell]

The letter was from someone who identified himself as the Brooklyn waiter, and he wrote that he was familiar with a recent article I'd published on the JFK assassination. He also wrote that I was now part of the quote, great game of researching the JFK assassination and he wanted to bring the name of someone to my attention. The name was Adolf Scheppy Wiedenbach. I'd never heard that name before, but I kept reading. The Brooklyn waiter claimed that Sheppi Wiedenbach was the mastermind behind the JFK assassination. I didn't know what to make of it. I mean, who the hell is Adolf Sheppy Wiedenbach? There was no Internet back then, so I didn't have a way to find out who this Sheppi Wiedenbach was. Then, years later, I was working on a book about the assassination and stumbled upon an article about a General Charles Willoughby. Charles Willoughby rose through the ranks of the US military to become the chief of intelligence for General Douglas MacArthur during World War II and then the Korean War. It got my attention because Richard Case Nagel had also worked for the top secret Field Operations Intelligence under Willoughby's command.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You might remember Field Operations Intelligence as the top secret army intelligence unit closely connected to the CIA. Nagel described its role as, quote, designed to conceal the true nature of CIA objectives.

[Dick Russell]

I continued to research Willoughby and found out that not only was he an extreme far right anti communist with connections to Nagel, but he also had connections to CIA Chief Allen Dulles, the Hunt Oil family of Dallas and the Cuban exile community. And then when I thought I'd read just about everything I could about General Charles Willoughby, I stumbled upon his birth name. Charles Willoughby was born Adolph Sheppey Wiedenbach. Was it possible that the letter that the Brooklyn waiter sent me 15 years earlier was a major clue into who killed JFK?

[Soledad O'Brien]

This is who killed JFK. 60 years later, what can we uncover about the greatest murder mystery in American history? And why does it still matter today? I'm your host, Soledad O'Brien.

[Rob Reiner]

In the last episode, we covered the 48 hours between Oswald's arrest and his death. We heard about Jack Ruby's extensive connections to the Mafia and Oswald's connections to Ruby. We watched Ruby as he stalked Oswald following the assassination, then murdered Oswald on live tv.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So where does this guy, Adolf Sheppy Wiedenbach fit in? And if he's involved in the whole thing, why is this the first time we're hearing his name?

[Rob Reiner]

He was a rogue. And in this episode, we'll find out how he and other hardline rogue elements came together to assassinate the President.

[Dick Russell]

I see the hallmarks or the markers of this being a CIA operation that rogues would have conducted.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Rolf Mowat Larson. He worked as a CIA intelligence officer from 1983 to 2006. I do believe the reason I can.

[Dick Russell]

Say that with a different kind of approach than others is because I am a CIA officer.

[Rob Reiner]

Okay, it's time to lay out exactly what happened on November 22, 1963.

[Soledad O'Brien]

All right, here we go. You've established three groups, each with a motive.

[Rob Reiner]

The Cuban exiles were angry that Castro took over Cuba. They wanted the country back. The Mafia wanted their hotels and their casinos back. And the hardliners in the military and the intelligence community were furious at Kennedy. They believed that he had gone Soft on Communism and was selling America out.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So what do you think happened?

[Rob Reiner]

Well, Ralph Mowat Larson, the former CIA agent that we just heard from, he said it had all the hallmarks of a CIA operation and he thinks that some people connected to the agency were involved.

[Dick Russell]

As we go through this, it's important to keep in mind Operation Northwoods.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You'll remember, Operation Northwoods was the concept developed by the CIA and the military. The idea was to stage a false flag attack on a prominent US target, then blame it on Castro to galvanize public support for an invasion of Cuba.

[Rob Reiner]

CIA agent Bill Harvey's ZR Rifle explored the same tactic of using a pro communist scapegoat.

[Soledad O'Brien]

If you remember, ZR Rifle was the CIA program run by Bill Harvey that was designed to eliminate world leaders that the US deemed problematic. In 1976, the Church Committee discovered classified documents about this program which included a handwritten note from Bill Harvey himself.

[Dick Russell]

He wrote, quote, planning should include provision for blaming Czechs or Soviets in case of blow. In other words, someone who is pro communist. Harvey also instructed the central registry to have a quote, phony201 on that person.

[Soledad O'Brien]

A201 is a file that the CIA keeps on someone they're interested in.

[Dick Russell]

He wrote that this phony201 quote should look like a CE file. The CE stands for counterespionage.

[Rob Reiner]

If they wanted a pro communist to take the blame for an assassination, they had to have documentation of this person, this fall guy, to prove that he was in fact a Communist agent. The idea of a pro communist scapegoat was part of both Operation Northwoods and Harvey's ZR Rifle. Now let's get into the details. Once the motorcade had been established, all the tactical leader had to do was was place the shooters in positions to be most effective.

[Danny Trehov]

Do you know what a triangulation is?

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Colonel William Bishop being interviewed by Dick Russell. Bishop worked in Intelligence for many years and worked in black ops for the CIA.

[Danny Trehov]

Overly simplified. It happened like this Depository grassy knoll and the building here, Corset Street.

[Rob Reiner]

Now, some people think there were two shooters, some people think as many as six. But based on the forensic evidence, the locations of the wounds and the directions of the shots, we believe there were at least four. There was definitely a shooter on the sixth floor of the Schoolbook Depository building. There was another shooter behind the picket fence on what we've come to call the grassy knoll. And based on the bullet hole in Kennedy's back and some of Governor Connally's Wounds. There were most likely shooters in the Daltex building and the County Records building. And both of these buildings were across Houston street behind the motorcade. And finally, based on the forensic evidence we have, we believe that a fatal headshot would have come from the overpass on the south knoll. So we were on the south side.

[Dick Russell]

And we were looking for shooters on the other side.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Tosh Plumley, the CIA mercenary pilot who said he flew mobster Johnny Roselli and CIA agent E. Howard Hunt to Dallas that day.

[Rob Reiner]

Plumlee was positioned on the south knoll of Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting. He said a shot definitely came from that area. And based on the position Kennedy was in at the time and the result of his head wound, we believe this was a kill shot.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I know you've been researching this question for decades. Can you name the people that you think fired at JFK that day?

[Rob Reiner]

I'm going to let Dick take this one.

[Dick Russell]

With all of the information now available to us, we can name four assassins who were all present in Dallas that day. It's possible to make a highly educated guess as to who those shooters were and who was responsible for where they were placed.

[Soledad O'Brien]

To have a murder as gruesome as.

[Rob Reiner]

Jake Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here In Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death. Her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Begley is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

This case, the more I learned about it, the more I'm scratching my head. Something's not right.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'm Lauren Bright. Pacheco. Murder on Songbird Road dives into the conviction of a mother of four who remains remains behind bars and the investigation that put her there.

[Rob Reiner]

I have not seen this level of corruption anywhere.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

It's sickening.

[Rob Reiner]

If you step sleep that many times, you'd have blood splatter. Where's the change of clothes?

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

She found out she was pregnant.

[Rob Reiner]

In jail, she wasn't treated like she was an innocent human being at all.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Which is just horrific. Nobody has gotten justice yet. And that's what I wish people would understand.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily show podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from from John and the team of correspondents and contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the fire and dare Enter Tale from the Shadows Presented by iheart and Sonora. An anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America. From ghastly encounters with shapeshifters to bone chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

[Rob Reiner]

I know him.

[Danny Trehov]

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturnal Tales from the Shadows as part of Michael Tura Podcast Network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Rob Reiner]

The people we're about to name were all cold blooded assassins.

[Danny Trehov]

To me it was a job no more and no less. And a human target is no damn different.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Colonel William Bishop again talking about his mindset during assassinations. Later on, during this interview with Dick Russell, Bishop admits that he himself had a hand in the 1961 assassination of Rafael Trujillo, President of the Dominican Republic.

[Danny Trehov]

You look upon your target as a tin can. You don't allow yourself to become emotionally, psychologically or mentally involved with your target. You have to be detached to be good at it.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Cold. Okay, so who were the men in Dallas?

[Dick Russell]

First? There was a Cuban exile named Herminio Diaz Garcia.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Fabian Escalante, a former Cuban intelligence officer.

[Rob Reiner]

Escalante said that Herminio Diaz is one of the people that we think was almost definitely involved in the plot against Kennedy.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Who is Herminio Diaz Garcia?

[Rob Reiner]

Escalante said that in the 1940s he was a gangster in Cuba. He participated in a plot to kill the President of Costa Rica. He said that Hermino killed several people in the 50s.

[Dick Russell]

In 2013, an old friend of Garcia's, Reynaldo Martinez Gomez, gave an interview stating that Garcia had admitted to him that he had been part of the JFK assassination team. Garcia was killed in 1966 while on a mission into Cuba to try and assassinate Fidel Castro. We think another shooter was a man named Jean Swetra.

[Rob Reiner]

We mentioned Swetra in an earlier episode. He was a notorious French assassin.

[Dick Russell]

CIA files declassified in 1977 revealed that Swetra was in Dallas on November 22 and was then quickly and quietly deported from the country. Almost immediately after the assassination. We believe another shooter was a man named Charles Nicoletti, also known as Chucky the Typewriter. He was part of the Chicago mob and a hitman for Sam Giancana.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You may remember Sam Giancana was one of two mobsters, along with Johnny Roselli, that agreed to help Bill Harvey assassinate Castro.

[Dick Russell]

Nicoletti was murdered in 1977, right before he was due to testify to the House Select Committee on Assassinations. The fourth shooter we know about was a man named Jack Cannon. Cannon worked under Charles Willoughby.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Willoughby was the guy you talked about earlier. The guy you received the letter about.

[Dick Russell]

Exactly. Willoughby was the head of intelligence for Douglas MacArthur. And after World War II, Cannon worked with Willoughby. Cannon ran a black ops group known as the Z, or Zed, unit. When I wrote my book on Richard Case Nagel, the Man who Knew Too Much, he told me that Cannon was a part of this CIA unit that reported to Willoughby. And he indicated that Cannon was directly involved in the assassination of jfk.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Seems like a lot of people to be working on a secret plot.

[Dick Russell]

It was all compartmentalized. Everything was done on a need to know basis. Most likely, none of the shooters were aware of the others. So in that sense, they didn't work together.

[Rob Reiner]

The CIA agents that we talked to said that people in operations like this would be given very specific instructions of what they were expected to do. They would know little or nothing about the other people involved.

[Soledad O'Brien]

As both of you said a little while ago, it's nice to name the shooters, but knowing who put them there, that's the real question. Who do you think orchestrated the assassination of jfk?

[Dick Russell]

The challenge to answering that is that people want a simple answer, and it isn't simple.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I can hear the audience groaning as you say that.

[Rob Reiner]

No, no, no, no, no. Don't worry. We're about to answer you very directly. But it isn't a one word answer. It wasn't the CIA, the Mafia, or the Cuban exiles. But it was rogue individuals that came from those worlds.

[Dick Russell]

Operation Northwoods and ZR Rifle served as the blueprint. The people that wrote those documents never thought they would ever see the light of day. They thought that it would stay secret forever. Allen Dulles, the godfather of the CIA, kept these programs from the Warren Commission. He knew what a bombshell it would be.

[Rob Reiner]

So, to start, none of this happens without the knowledge of Allen Dulles.

[Dick Russell]

We don't think that Dulles played an active role in the planning, but we do think he would have been aware of the plan.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Why do you say that?

[Rob Reiner]

Because it's Inconceivable that he wouldn't be aware of something like this. And it explains why he was at the remote CIA facility known as the Farm on the day of the assassination.

[Soledad O'Brien]

What's the Farm?

[Rob Reiner]

This was a top secret facility. What the hell was Allen Dulles doing.

[Dick Russell]

Going to a CIA facility when he'd been fired two years before?

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's David Talbot, the author of a book on Dulles called the Devil's Chessboard.

[Rob Reiner]

He was there all during that fateful weekend when President Kennedy was killed and.

[Dick Russell]

When Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald on national television with Dulles approval. I think that James Angleton and David Attlee Phillips were responsible for ultimately setting up Oswald.

[Soledad O'Brien]

You'll remember James Jesus Angleton as the poet spy. He named his world of counterintelligence the wilderness of mirrors.

[Dick Russell]

He and David Attlee Phillips, who worked under Angleton, were the ones moving Oswald around the chessboard. They were developing him as a pro communist who would ultimately take the blame.

[Danny Trehov]

Oswald wasn't a damn thing in the world but a decoy.

[Rob Reiner]

He was a patsy.

[Soledad O'Brien]

We started this investigation with Lee Harvey Oswald famously saying, I'm just a patsy. And now, Rob, you're fully explaining why you think that's true.

[Rob Reiner]

Let's take a moment to understand why Oswald saying he's a patsy is so important. If I was arrested for a murder I didn't commit, I would say, I'm innocent. I didn't do it. You got the wrong guy. But Oswald says, I'm just a patsy. Now why would he say that? If you look at assassinations of world leaders throughout history, Julius Caesar, Abraham Lincoln, what happened after their deaths?

[Soledad O'Brien]

Somebody claimed responsibility.

[Rob Reiner]

Exactly. When he was arrested, he said, I'm a patsy. That's not the words of an assassin.

[Dick Russell]

Who proudly kills the President.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's David Talbot again.

[Rob Reiner]

John Wilkes Booth said six semper tyrannous.

[Dick Russell]

As he left to the stage after.

[Rob Reiner]

Killing Lincoln, he was proud that he killed the President.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Sic semper tyrannis, which means thus always to tyrants.

[Rob Reiner]

If you're going to kill somebody for political reasons and you think that you're doing your country a great service, you want to own it.

[Soledad O'Brien]

What about those who say he was just someone looking to make his mark on the world?

[Rob Reiner]

Even more reason to own it. If you're a nobody and you want to feel important to take your place in history, you want to own that. Setting up Oswald to take the fall also explains the COVID up.

[Soledad O'Brien]

How do you mean?

[Rob Reiner]

Well, we know that Oswald had extensive connections to the CIA so the people who had been handling him since the late 50s, they now had a personal incentive to make sure that everything was covered up.

[Dick Russell]

Their fingerprints were all over Oswald, even if they had nothing to do with the assassination directly. And any real investigation would reveal their involvement.

[Soledad O'Brien]

So the men responsible for Dallas were counting on the fact that the CIA and FBI would have to close ranks in the COVID up because of their connections to Oswald.

[Rob Reiner]

Exactly. Anyone who dealt with Oswald, handled his file, read his mail, cut his paychecks, gave him his assignments while he was in the Marines, took care of him when he got out. They now had to deny any connection to Oswald even if they had nothing to do with the assassination. And we know what happened to those who tried to talk.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Okay, so you're saying that we have Dulles as aware of the event and Angleton and Atlee Phillips making sure there was a patsy to take the blame. But who actually orchestrated this?

[Dick Russell]

Evidence leads us to the ZR rifle chief, Bill Harvey as the strategist and General Charles Willoughby as the tactician. Willoughby and Harvey then tapped the Mafia and the Cuban exiles to help provide the shooters.

[Rob Reiner]

I think Harvey and Roselli and a.

[Danny Trehov]

Couple other guys were the people who.

[Rob Reiner]

Were training the assassins. And the theory is that Harvey decided to direct those assassins against Kennedy.

[Soledad O'Brien]

That's Robert Blakey again. You'll remember, he was in charge of the House Select Committee on assassinations in 1979. They concluded that President Kennedy was murdered as a result of a conspiracy.

[Dick Russell]

Harvey's hatred for Kennedy was well documented. He hated the President's politics and he saw his path toward peace as the act of a traitor. And he hated Kennedy personally for banishing him to Rome. As we know, Harvey was also in charge of the CIA's program of hiring assassins to kill political leaders around the world. And Willoughby was as staunch and anti communist as you could find. He was deeply involved in organizations like the John Birch Society and others that would stop at nothing to destroy the Red menace. He also had a history of involvement in violent black ops.

[Rob Reiner]

The assassination in Dallas came directly out of the Operation Northwoods and ZR Rifle playbooks. It had been implemented against world leaders many times, just never at an American target.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I'm sure the audience, just like me, needs a moment to digest all this.

[Rob Reiner]

To me, the names of the shooters and the men behind them is less important than the reason it happened. Kennedy represented progress. He wanted to move us away from nuclear annihilation toward peace. But sadly, it prompted a coup that profoundly changed history.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Up next, why it matters that we're asking that question today. To have a murder as gruesome as.

[Rob Reiner]

Jake Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death, her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Begley is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

This case, the more I learned about it, the more I'm scratching my head.

[Dick Russell]

Something's not right.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco Murder on Songbird Road dives into the conviction of a mother of four who remains behind bars and the investigation that put her there.

[Rob Reiner]

I have not seen this level of corruption anywhere.

[Soledad O'Brien]

It's sickening.

[Rob Reiner]

If you step sleep that many times you have blood splatter. Where's the change clothes?

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

She found out she was pregnant in jail.

[Soledad O'Brien]

She wasn't treated like she was an.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Innocent human being at all, which is just horrific.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Nobody has gotten justice yet and that's what I wish people would understand.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back in the host chair at the Daily show, which means he's also back in our ears on the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. The Daily Show Podcast has everything you need to stay on top of today's news and pop culture. You get hilarious satirical takes on entertainment, politics, sports and more from John and the team of correspondence and contestants contributors. The podcast also has content you can't get anywhere else, like extended interviews and a roundup of the weekly headlines. Listen to the Daily Show Ears edition on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

Welcome. I'm Danny Thrill. Won't you join me at the Fire and dare Enter Tale from the Shadows presented by iheart and Sonora, an anthology of modern day horror stories inspired by the legends of Latin America, from ghastly encounters with shape shifters to bone chilling brushes with supernatural creatures.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Unlike.

[Danny Trehov]

Take a trip and experience the horrors that have haunted Latin America since the beginning of time. Listen to Nocturno Tales from the Shadows as part of Michael Tura Podcast Network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I came into the story interested in whether the question who killed jfk? Could actually be answered and to what degree did this question destabilize Americans faith in our country's leadership? The murder of President Kennedy seems to be a moment where trust was replaced with growing skepticism. Here's Robert Blakey, who led the House Select Committee on assassinations in 1976, who still puzzles over it almost 40 years later. Do you think who killed JFK is even a relevant and important question today?

[Danny Trehov]

Yes.

[Rob Reiner]

If you talk to young people today.

[Danny Trehov]

They'Re turned off by the society in which they live.

[Rob Reiner]

They're cynical.

[Danny Trehov]

Where did that cynicism come from?

[Rob Reiner]

I think the cynicism that are characteristics of young people today are not entirely related to, but are the outcome of the cynicism over the Warren Commission Report.

[Soledad O'Brien]

To this day, a US President was assassinated and it's likely that the real perpetrators were not held accountable. The fact that some of these perpetrators may have been Officials in the U.S. agencies designed to protect us is likely the very reason why people like Rob continue to pursue this question. That and the fact that clues and leads just keep slipping out. Like the Katzenbach memo which ordered the Warren Commission to pin it all on Oswald. That was only revealed in the 1970s. The expose about George Johanides, the CIA liaison to the House Select Committee, that only came out in 2001. And in 2023, former Secret Service agent Paul Landis came forward with a testimony that throws into question the single bullet theory. It's impossible to stand at a fixed point in history and say with 100% certainty we know who killed JFK, because the story continues to evolve. So then what does closure look like? You're never gonna know for sure. There is no document that eventually someone releases that says, okay, here was the plot in full.

[Dick Russell]

I think the only closure you get is that you come to certain conclusions. This podcast series is going to show that there was a huge cover up going on.

[Soledad O'Brien]

To people like Dick Russell crystallizing his theory is closure. For others like Jefferson Morley, closure isn't up to us.

[Dick Russell]

The CIA records that are still classified, they will help answer this question.

[Soledad O'Brien]

In other words, as long as the government is holding onto records, their story isn't over. But as time passes, even that becomes more complicated.

[Dick Russell]

You know, one thing that we see is when they release these records, you know, people who would have been really interesting to interview have died. They can't talk anymore. This guy writes a detailed memo. His name didn't come out until 2022. You know, and when we get the name, you go and look, the guy died in 2017. You know, if we'd had that document in 2017, that would have been a very important interview.

[Soledad O'Brien]

For historians like Jon Meacham, it's about what America might have been had Kennedy survived.

[Rob Reiner]

It is tempting to want to see our martyred king as wiser and better.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Than he might have turned out to be.

[Rob Reiner]

But it's not nostalgic to say that The Kennedy of 61 was not the Kennedy of 62, and the Kennedy of 62 was not the Kennedy of 63.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I think there's a piece of Americana that feels like if Kennedy had survived, the country would have avoided the Vietnam War, because that's what Kennedy was promising when he was murdered. It's impossible to know if that would have happened, but it's enticing to envision that alternate reality. And after spending time with Dick and Rob, I've come to see how that reality may be a bastion of healing in what otherwise is a wound in their psyche. The loss of President Kennedy happened in their formative years, and the way they describe it, it was like losing a parent. The reason they want they need to know the truth is because only then are they able to heal. Rob, you're handing the story off to the next generation. What do you hope for?

[Rob Reiner]

I hope they continue to demand the truth from their government, and not just about what happened to President Kennedy, but as a way of coming to grips with our past. If we want to continue to strive for a more perfect union in order to preserve our democracy, it has to be built on a foundation of truth.

[Soledad O'Brien]

Who Killed JFK is hosted by Rob Reiner and me, Soledad O'Brien, and our executive producers are Rob Reiner, Michelle Reiner, Matt George, Jason English, David Hoffman and me, Soledad O'Brien. Our writer is David Hoffman with research by Dick Russell. Our story editors are Rob Reiner and Julie Pinero. Our senior producer is Julie Pinero. Our producers are Tristan Nash, Dick Russell, Michelle Goldfine and Amari Lee. Our editors are Tristan Nash, Julie Pinero and Marcus Dilaudo. Our project manager is Carol Klein. Our associate producer is Emilse Quiros. Mixing, mastering and sound design by Ben Lahoulier. Research and fact checking by Girl Friday and Emilse Quiros. Archival Audio in this episode, thanks to Dick Russell. Business affairs by Hannan Nadea and Jonathan Furman. Our consulting producer is Rosanne Galagini. Recorded in part at CDM Studio and Fourth Street Recording Studio. Show Logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Production assistance by Rocco Del Prior and Grace Barron. Special thanks to Joe Honig, Rose Arce and Dan Storper. If you're enjoying the show, leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Who Killed JFK? As a production of Soledad O'Brien Productions and I Heart Podcasts. To have a murder as gruesome as.

[Rob Reiner]

Jay Beasley's doesn't happen very often down.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Here in Marion, Illinois. An 11 year old girl brutally stabbed to death, her father's longtime live in girlfriend maintaining innocence but charged with her murder.

[Soledad O'Brien]

I am confident that Julie Beverly is guilty.

[Rob Reiner]

They've never found a weapon, Never made sense.

[Danny Trehov]

Still doesn't make sense.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

She found out she was pregnant in jail.

[Soledad O'Brien]

The person who did it is still out there.

[Lauren Bright Pacheco]

Listen to Murder on Songbird road on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Danny Trehov]

You should probably keep your lights on for Nocturnal Tales from the Shadow. Join me, Danny Dreholzing and step into the flames of Fright, an anthology podcast of modern day horror stories inspired by the most terrifying legends and lore of Latin America. Listen to nocturnal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[Jon Stewart]

Jon Stewart is back at the Daily show and he's bringing his signature wit and insight straight to your ears with the Daily Show Ears Edition podcast. Dive into John's unique take on the biggest topics in politics, entertainment, sports and more. Joined by the sharp voices of the show's correspondents and contributors, and with extended interviews and exclusive weekly headline roundups, this podcast gives you content you won't find anywhere else. Ready to laugh and stay informed? Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or or wherever you get your podcasts.