#13: Marriage—The Truth About What Makes Love Work Long-Term (ft. Johnnyswim)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Why That Worked – Presented by StoryBrand.ai

Episode #13: Marriage—The Truth About What Makes Love Work Long-Term (ft. Johnny Swim) Release Date: March 31, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode #13 of Why That Worked, presented by StoryBrand.ai, hosts Donald Miller and Kyle Reed delve into the intricate dynamics of long-term marriages. Moving beyond the idyllic fairytale narrative, this episode offers a candid exploration of the real, often messy, and transformative aspects that sustain a marital relationship over the years. Special guests Abner Ramirez and Amanda Sudano from the acclaimed musical duo Johnny Swim join the conversation to share their personal journey and insights into making love work.

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Meet the Guests: Abner Ramirez and Amanda Sudano of Johnny Swim

Abner Ramirez and Amanda Sudano, collectively known as Johnny Swim, are not only successful musicians but also a married couple who have balanced touring, raising a family, and building a life together for over a decade. Their unique experience of maintaining a marriage on the demanding environment of a tour bus provides valuable perspectives on resilience and intentionality in relationships.

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Their Journey: How They Met and Reconnected

First Encounter in Church

Abner Ramirez recounts meeting Amanda during their teenage years at a church in Brentwood, Tennessee. At 19 years old, Abner, who had a reputation as a player, publicly declared Amanda as the girl he intended to marry. Despite his bold proclamation, Amanda initially resisted, leading to a four-year separation.

Abner Ramirez (04:18): "I said it out loud, literally right there in that seat. And she goes, what? I said, that's the girl I'm gonna marry."

Amanda shares her recollection of that moment, highlighting her initial reluctance and the differences in their social circles.

Amanda Sudano (04:47): "When he came up to talk to me, I was like, I have good discernment, sir. Please don't talk to me."

Reconnecting After Four Years

Their paths crossed again at Cafe Coco, where a mutual friend introduced them. Both had been introspective during their time apart—Abner had stopped dating for four years, and Amanda had developed her own focus and self-awareness.

Amanda Sudano (05:25): "Both of us have the answer. We're both stalkers."

Their mutual admiration, despite initial reservations, led to rekindling their relationship, cementing their bond with shared goals and mutual support.

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Evolving Perspectives on Marriage

From Finish Line to Endless Journey

Initially, Abner viewed marriage as a milestone—a finish line to be crossed. However, his experiences transformed this perception into understanding marriage as a continuous, ever-evolving journey.

Abner Ramirez (19:20): "This is usness is constantly moving, and that means we change and we grow as people."

Amanda concurs, emphasizing that a successful marriage involves constant growth and adaptation.

Amanda Sudano (09:34): "If you don't see it as a challenge designed to transform you, it absolutely has to transform you."

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Overcoming Challenges Together

Navigating Health Crises and Mental Health

The couple faced significant challenges, including Amanda's severe health issues post-COVID and Abner's battle with depression. Their mutual support and commitment to each other were pivotal in overcoming these hardships.

Amanda Sudano (16:49): "We really built this other layer of trust with one another, this other layer of support for one another."

Abner reflects on his transformation through marriage, becoming a better version of himself with Amanda's influence.

Abner Ramirez (09:00): "I am a completely different human because of my wife. And I like this human."

Their approach to therapy and open communication strengthened their bond, teaching them to hold space for each other's struggles.

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Integration with Their Music: "When the War Is Over"

Drawing from their personal experiences, Abner and Amanda are developing a musical titled When the War Is Over. This project encapsulates their journey through love, struggle, and transformation.

Abner Ramirez (12:17): "It's about some cosmic pull that... it's greater than romance."

The musical explores themes of enduring love amidst external and internal conflicts, mirroring their real-life challenges and triumphs.

Amanda shares the inspiration behind the album's title, rooted in her personal battle with health issues and the psychological warfare that accompanied it.

Amanda Sudano (16:27): "The war is out there and it's us fighting. The title comes from a song on the album that was a diary entry of mine."

Their music becomes a medium through which they express the depths of their relationship and the resilience required to sustain it.

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Key Insights and Lessons on Making Marriage Work

1. Intentionality and Resilience: Successful marriages are built on deliberate efforts and the ability to withstand and grow from challenges.

   Abner Ramirez (02:05): "It really created a much deeper bond and also just an understanding."

2. Continuous Growth: Viewing marriage as a dynamic journey rather than a static goal fosters ongoing personal and relational development.

   Abner Ramirez (19:20): "We are rivers, not lakes."

3. Mutual Support: Being each other's teammate and providing unwavering support during tough times strengthens the marital bond.

   Amanda Sudano (16:49): "We really built this other layer of trust with one another."

4. Effective Communication: Open and honest communication ensures that both partners remain aligned and can navigate misunderstandings effectively.

   Abner Ramirez (09:58): "If you're looking to add to your life by adding a partner, I think you're already kind of messing up."

5. Embracing Transformation: Accepting that both partners will evolve over time and embracing these changes together prevents stagnation and fosters a thriving relationship.

   Abner Ramirez (21:20): "If you change, I'm changing, too."

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Conclusion

Episode #13 of Why That Worked offers a profound exploration of what makes long-term marriages resilient and fulfilling. Through the authentic and heartfelt stories of Abner Ramirez and Amanda Sudano, listeners gain valuable insights into the importance of intentionality, continuous growth, mutual support, and effective communication in sustaining a loving and transformative relationship. Their journey underscores that making love work is an ongoing process of adaptation, understanding, and unwavering commitment.

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Notable Quotes:

• Abner Ramirez (09:00): "I am a completely different human because of my wife. And I like this human."

• Amanda Sudano (13:12): "We're both stalkers."

• Abner Ramirez (19:20): "This is usness is constantly moving, and that means we change and we grow as people."

• Amanda Sudano (16:49): "We really built this other layer of trust with one another."

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For more insights on crafting effective messaging for your business, visit StoryBrand.ai.

Transcript

[Abner Ramirez]

Foreign.

[Bobby Richards]

You're listening to the why that Work podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you've ever wondered why certain brands, trends, or cultural phenomena find success while others don't, you're in the right place. Every week, we unpack why something worked, then give you actionable insights that you can use in your own life. Now let's dive in with your hosts, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed. Hey, everybody. Podcast producer Bobby Richards here. And today on the show, we're talking about why marriage works. Not the fairytale version, but the real messy, transformative kind. Now, if you've ever wondered what makes a marriage thrive, you're absolutely in the right place. Many couples struggle because they expect love to be effortless. But a real marriage takes intention, resilience, and a deep understanding of one another. And sharing their personal story around all of this are today's guests, Abner Ramirez and Amanda Sudano. Ramirez, the musical powerhouse duo known as Johnny Swim. They tour together. They've been doing that for over a decade. They've been raising a family, and they're building a life side by side. All of that has tested and strengthened their relationship in ways that they never expected. And they're going to get into that today. So whether you're married, you're thinking about marriage, or you're just curious about what makes relationships last, this conversation is going to give you a fresh perspective. Let's get into it.

[Kyle Reed]

We have to be talking about marriage on a day when Johnny Swim came in to do a little tiny desk concert. And so we thought, well, you guys are married and you've done it on a tour bus. You've been married on a tour bus for a decade.

[Abner Ramirez]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And if that's not a grueling test, first of all, congratulations on staying married.

[Abner Ramirez]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[Amanda Sudano]

Thank you.

[Unnamed Guest]

Now teach us your secrets. Teach us.

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Teach us how you're doing it.

[Abner Ramirez]

Just.

[Unnamed Guest]

You figured it out. So tell us everything you know.

[Abner Ramirez]

Well, the good news is we have the answers.

[Bobby Richards]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

If you ask our therapist, he really doesn't know what his job is for us anymore.

[Kyle Reed]

He just sits there shaking.

[Abner Ramirez]

He takes notes for other people.

[Unnamed Guest]

Smart. That's good. That's good.

[Kyle Reed]

I'm very curious, though, your opinions. Have you ever had sort of a philosophical thought of, like, marriage and why it exists and what. What the purpose of it is? What do you see the purpose of marriage? Is it to make records?

[Abner Ramirez]

Well, for us, it's financially beneficial.

[Kyle Reed]

You don't have to pay the talent.

[Abner Ramirez]

People love seeing a married couple on st. Stage. And it pays. So, you know, we go our separate ways afterwards. No, I. You know, it's funny about marriage. Cuz I grew up in church, grew up little Southern Baptist kid in Florida and was always preached to, you know, I had my promise ring, I kissed, dating goodbye, did all this. Did you really? I really did, yeah. Well, I mean, I didn't succeed. I didn't do it successfully. You know, it's funny, she wore my promise ring on our wedding day around her neck.

[Amanda Sudano]

I was like, I'm reclaiming the promise ring.

[Abner Ramirez]

So I never, I was always preached to. God has one for you. God, there's the one for you. And even as a kid, I never believed that they never computed because the math just couldn't. Math, like if everybody has a person, all it takes is one idiot to mess up the algorithm for everybody.

[Kyle Reed]

You figured that out really early.

[Abner Ramirez]

Yeah. I was like, this just can't be. That can't be how it is, right?

[Kyle Reed]

And I see my brain would have said, so I get three.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's right.

[Abner Ramirez]

I get a few chances then. Because somebody messed it up. And it wasn't. It literally was in Brentwood, Tennessee. It was at a church because I was dating a girl, a different girl that said I had to go to church with her if we were gonna keep dating. And I saw Amanda across the room and I literally said out loud, that's the girl I'm gonna marry. Wow. And it was this really profound. There's no way for me to lie about it. Cause it's as ridiculous as it sounds. It changed my life. I was a player, as it were. I had probably.

[Kyle Reed]

How old were you?

[Abner Ramirez]

I was 19. 18 maybe, but 19, 19.

[Kyle Reed]

I found the promise Ring is a great way to reel in chicks.

[Abner Ramirez]

Honestly. Same. And honestly, I kept saying goodbye tours back in the day and like the Promise Ring tour stuff, that was a great place to meet girls as well. Just say a couple of right things and you're golden. 18 year old Abner was a pro at that. But at 19, when I first saw her, it literally changed my life. I got dumped because I was sitting next to the girl that I was dating.

[Kyle Reed]

Did you really say it out loud?

[Abner Ramirez]

I said it out loud, literally right there in that seat. And it was.

[Kyle Reed]

You elbowed your date and said, that's the girl.

[Abner Ramirez]

I didn't even. I didn't. She elbowed me. I was like, that's the girl I'm gonna marry. And she goes, what? I said, that's the girl. Oh, that's the girl I'm. And she elbowed me in the ribs, where she said, I guess you better go talk to her. Then I was like, yeah, yeah, I should. So I got up at church to go holler at Amanda, and she did the one thing I was unprepared for. She rolled her eyes at me, and I sat down in the nearest pew and didn't see her. Didn't meet her for four years after that. Like, literally four years went by, but I never dated again.

[Kyle Reed]

Do you have a memory of this Amanda?

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah. I remember seeing him with not just one girl, multiple girls multiple times at church. And so when he came up to talk to me, I was like, I have good discernment, sir. Please don't talk to me. But I also did think you. So I was like, he's really cute, but I see who he hangs out with, and I see like, I'm not here for this. And also, if he's hanging out with those girls, he's not gonna like me, because I was also. Not that. I don't know. I was, like, a dork. And I went to Vanderbilt, and I would crawl out of my dorm to go have to go to church with my parents, and I'd put my glasses on and, like, barely brush my hair. So I was like, you don't want this if you're hanging out with the girls that are coming to church like this. So it was four years, and then we saw each other at a coffee shop. Cafe Coco made recipes.

[Kyle Reed]

Did you not forget her?

[Abner Ramirez]

No. No, did not. Absolutely. Could not, Would not. I started stalking her online. And during those four years, she moved to New York, was a model. I had the early Google alerts where you would just Google somebody every day.

[Kyle Reed]

You set up with her.

[Abner Ramirez]

I'd get a ping, really, whenever she did a new shoot or whatever. And I. Yeah. And I put it. I had a folder on my desktop of pictures of Amanda.

[Unnamed Guest]

And you said, yes.

[Amanda Sudano]

So what happened was. So we saw each other. I walked into Cafe Coco.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah.

[Amanda Sudano]

And our dear friend Matt Carney, who's also a musician, was his roommate at the time. And I knew Matt from when I was in high school. And so I saw Matt. I didn't see Abner's backwards to me. And I go, oh, my gosh, Matt. And he turns around, or Matt says, hi. And he goes, oh, do you know my. My roommate Abner? And Abner turns around and looks at me, and all he says was. All he said was, I've been waiting to meet you for so long. And I was like, excuse me. And so he asked if he could come sit with me, my friend, and have coffee. I was dating somebody else at the time, so I was just kind of, like, curious, I guess. And he sat down and talked. I was texting all my single friends, like, I met the sweetest guy. I thought he was gonna be horrible and a player, but he's actually amazing. And one of you should date him.

[Abner Ramirez]

The last four years.

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah, he had changed over the last four years, but. Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

How'd you change?

[Abner Ramirez]

I. I literally kissed dating goodbye at that moment when I. When I got dumped that day at church.

[Kyle Reed]

You hadn't dated for four years?

[Abner Ramirez]

I'd stopped. I never had another girlfriend until the day I started dating.

[Kyle Reed]

Come on.

[Abner Ramirez]

No, truly. And it's funny. I made it known like, there would be. Like, I would have, because I was raised by women, right? Like, I have two older sisters, my mom and my grandma. And so I'd get comfortable with a girl at work or whatever, and I could tell she thought this was going somewhere. And I would tell the girl, hey, just so you know, like, I'm not dating anybody. Like, this isn't. I like being around you. And I like when we all hang out, but I'm not trying to. Yeah, I'm not trying to have anything right now. I'm working on me. And it was a real answer. And I know the question was, what do you think the purpose of marriage is for us? No, I like to divide the pragmatic, practical answer from the kind of magical feeling, because I never believed in the magic of relationships or the cosmic kind of sentiment of the one until I met her. And so even my practical sentiment, which is truly. I think it could boil down to, I could never be my truest self if I never married her. I would never be my fullest self if I didn't have my wife. I've talked to her ex boyfriend once, and I won't name him. And I remember he came up to me at church one day after we were married, and he's like, you know, and he's like. He's a male model. When we started dating, this dude was on every magazine that I had a subscription to.

[Kyle Reed]

That's trouble.

[Abner Ramirez]

It was the worst thing. He was an underwear model, so it made it even worse. And. And I remember he came up to me and he was like, you know, people. People say, who's the love of your life? And I tell him about Amanda, and they're like, oh, you know, is she single? No, she's married to somebody. He's like, oh, maybe they'll break up, and you still have a chance. And he's saying this to me as a compliment, believe it or not. He's like, no. And I'm like, no, she's married to a good dude. Like, he's fine. One day I'm gonna get my wife. One day I'm gonna get that level up, you know? He's talking about it kind of the way I thought about marriage. Like. Like a really shiny trophy or like this thing that you should have, or like this. This addition to you. It's me plus wife equals a thing. And I was. And I tried to express it to him, and I think it was the first time I tried to put words to it. I was like, bro, this isn't about. First of all, yeah, I am a good guy, and she stuck with me forever. But second of all, like, this isn't. You're not looking to add to your life when you get married if you're looking to add to your life. And I'm not saying this is advice, because we say. We don't give advice. But if you're looking to add to your life by adding a partner, I think you're already kind of messing up, because it's not about us. The separation.

[Kyle Reed]

If you don't see.

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

If you don't see it as a challenge designed to transform you, it absolutely.

[Abner Ramirez]

Has to transform you.

[Kyle Reed]

It's not being completed.

[Abner Ramirez]

No, it is being completely transformed. It's like, it doesn't matter how little bit of food coloring you put into how big a bucket of water. That water is a different color with just the littlest bit. And this is. We're talking about half and half. We're talking about completely transforming who you are. I'm sure at some point there will be scientific evidence that on molecular level, you are different when you bond not just through the act of getting in front of God and all your friends and saying you'll be together till you die, but through living life together. I believe molecularly, it has to be true. You change. Because I am a completely different human because of my wife. And I like this human.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

You know.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Amanda Sudano]

I saw. I saw somebody say when you. When you love the right person, you end up loving yourself more, too. Like, because you know the things about yourself that you love. Yeah. My favorite part about that story with my ex, though, he didn't get to. Which he said, you know, basically a beautiful speech like this to him, what we just talked about. And my ex's reply was, you said something cool. I said something Cool.

[Abner Ramirez]

Hi.

[Amanda Sudano]

Or I said something cool.

[Abner Ramirez]

You said something like that.

[Kyle Reed]

And we were like, you want to touch my abs?

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah, exactly like that checks. That checks.

[Abner Ramirez]

You know, that's what I do when.

[Kyle Reed]

Somebody'S just better than me. I just go, look at my apps.

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah, check this out. Exactly.

[Bobby Richards]

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[Kyle Reed]

You guys are amazing on stage. The music that you write is amazing. You're currently working on a musical in the West End.

[Abner Ramirez]

Yeah. We can't tell you what it is publicly, but we can tell you that we're working on our first musical. Wow. It's on the West End. It will be on the West End. It's not like we've been praying for a decade, literally asking God. At the beginning of every year, we do a dream session where we write down our dreams for the year. And for 10 years, we'd written down, we want to be a part of a musical. We want to write a musical. It finally happened, and we thought, you know, you'd get your first chance and you'd write a little thing and then you get your second chance. This is owned by a massive production company, the ip. It's fully funded and financed, set for the West End, set for Broadway. It's like kind of the highest level you can start at.

[Amanda Sudano]

Of course, anything can go wrong.

[Abner Ramirez]

Of course we could write the biggest trash musical ever and they'll just cut us out and start over. But the trajectory we're on is a really big first at bat. It's like, you know, you're betting cleanup and you just got called up from the minors and it's the World Series. And so it is nerve wracking.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Is there a marriage theme to it at all? Is it relational? How much are you allowed in the non describing.

[Abner Ramirez]

Yeah. We just can't tell you the name of it.

[Unnamed Guest]

Okay, fair enough.

[Abner Ramirez]

Yeah. It's about relationship and what drew us to the project. There's a novel by the same name that I can't say, but it feels like it's a Will they, won't they? It's clearly about these two people. And a couple pages in, I'm like, are they gonna get together or not? How much I'm gonna have to read until they get together. And then you realize quickly that it's not about the payoff of do they get married or not.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

It's about some cosmic pull that. It's reminded me of the first thing I said to Amanda after I've been waiting so long to meet you. The first thing I said to her after we hung out for a couple days was, I would marry you tomorrow. I'd be your best friend the rest of your life. I'll walk you down the aisle to marry somebody else. I don't really care. I just know I'm meant to be around you. I just feel like I'm supposed to be.

[Kyle Reed]

That's what you told her.

[Abner Ramirez]

I told her Day two.

[Amanda Sudano]

He also told me about his. The folder with the pictures of me.

[Unnamed Guest]

You told her that.

[Amanda Sudano]

And I actually had started my own folder of him after I met him at the coffee shop to show my friend. So I was like, I actually have a folder to you too. And that's how we knew we were meant to be.

[Abner Ramirez]

And so the story.

[Amanda Sudano]

We're both stalkers.

[Unnamed Guest]

That's true. That's the moral of this episode.

[Kyle Reed]

Two stalkers.

[Abner Ramirez]

Stalkers find each other.

[Unnamed Guest]

It's great.

[Abner Ramirez]

And so this story is like. It's about that cosmic kind of pull to each other that's almost greater than romance, which I would categorize marriage as. Romance is beautiful. And it's a part of it. It's a major part of it. And you have to keep that healthy and pay attention to it. But there's so much more than just the romantic element of a marriage. And this story that we're writing, this musical that we have the great privilege and honor and weight to write, is about more than just will they or won't they? It's about that cosmic pull of two people together.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. And I'm not allowed to say the title of it, but does rhyme with 50 blades of 51.

[Amanda Sudano]

50 blades of tight.

[Kyle Reed]

Now, sometimes with the title of the musical.

[Abner Ramirez]

It's not something we can talk about.

[Unnamed Guest]

Is you guys just released a new album.

[Amanda Sudano]

We did.

[Unnamed Guest]

Now Tell. I don't want to make a.

[Kyle Reed]

It's called when the War Is over, but we should say that.

[Unnamed Guest]

What's the title? Why is it called that?

[Kyle Reed]

Going there.

[Unnamed Guest]

What's the title? Speaking of marriage, as a made man myself, I'm like, well, there's something going on here.

[Abner Ramirez]

Listen, tell me about this. What's the war?

[Amanda Sudano]

The war, though. It's us against the world in it. It's not us. The war is in between us.

[Unnamed Guest]

I love that.

[Amanda Sudano]

The war is out there and it's us fighting. The title comes from a song on the album that was a diary entry of mine. I started having a bunch of health issues after getting Covid. We thought it was long Covid. It's not. It's something else, and it's gotten a lot better. But there was months where I was just in bed and we didn't know what was going on. I was going to doctors all the time. And he had come out of a season of depression, which he had never dealt with in his life before, which.

[Abner Ramirez]

I didn't even believe in. I thought depression and motion sickness were both imaginary things.

[Kyle Reed]

You thought motion sickness?

[Abner Ramirez]

Yeah. I didn't believe in motion sickness. I remember driving to Malibu, and she'd be like, babe, you have to, like, drive slower. I'm like, why? She's like, my tummy. I was like, oh, my tummy. What are you talking about?

[Amanda Sudano]

And then I got marriage, work.

[Abner Ramirez]

Sorry. But then I got motion sicknesses. Like, people deal with this.

[Bobby Richards]

It's unbelievable.

[Abner Ramirez]

And depression was the same kind of thing. I'd never thought. Considered it being a real thing, really. I knew people had it, just like I knew people had webbed toes or something. It's just not something I deal with.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

And then it became a debilitating crisis in my life, similar to motion sickness.

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah.

[Abner Ramirez]

All right, sorry. So that was my thing was depression. Hers was a physical health crisis.

[Amanda Sudano]

Yeah. So it was the diary entry that I wrote because I was talking to him about it, and I was like, after, you know, a year and a half of dealing with this, even if I woke up tomorrow and my body was perfectly healthy, I'm not the same person. Like, I feel traumatized by this whole experience. And I don't know, the thread between me and, like, quote, unquote, normal Amanda, you know, the person I was before I experienced this, there's no threat anymore. Like, I feel like I'm a completely different person. I don't know. I can remember how happy she'd be doing this and that. And now, like, I'm scared doing that. Those things. And even if I felt better, I think I would still feel afraid, and I would still feel sad, and I would still have this grief that I lost these years of my life. And so I wrote this little, you know, poem in my journal called when the War is over, and I brought it to Abner, and it's basically, when the war is over, will I even know? Will I be able to get back to that person that I was? Will I remember what it feels like after fighting something for so long, what it feels like to just be able to be at peace again? And that's what that song is. And then we just decided to name the album it, mostly because we wanted to name it Psilocybin. And our management said, I don't think that's a good song.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, that might sound.

[Unnamed Guest]

Which is another song on the album.

[Amanda Sudano]

But our management was like, maybe something else. And so we were like, well, what else encapsulates kind of the season? And where these songs came out of? And when the War Is over was the one.

[Kyle Reed]

How did your marriage kind of get you through It Sounds like two really, really hard times.

[Amanda Sudano]

You know, I think the amazing thing. Back to our therapist, Tim Long, who's wonderful, but when Abner started have, you know, Abner's journey kind of started before my health journ. And so we would go to him, and he would have us sit down together, even though it was kind of. At the time, it was like I was doing great and my life felt good, but he was not doing well. So therefore, we weren't doing well, and he would have us sit together. So while Abner was working through all the stuff that he was working through, I was there to support him that whole time. And so we really built this other layer of trust with one another, this other layer of support for one another, of being each other's teammate, that I think that experience really prepped us for the next part of the journey, which was my part of the journey, where he was sitting with me as I was dealing with all the things and dealing with grief and, you know, all the stuff that I was going through. And he could sit there and know how to, you know, for lack of a better term, hold space for one another. So it really created, I think, a much deeper bond and also just an understanding. Like, there was, for example, there was one time where I was not feeling well, which was a very normal occurrence, and I wanted him to just be with me. We were on tour. We were on the tour bus, and I Was like, I just don't feel good, and, you know, I'm feeling overwhelmed. And he just kind of sat with me for a second and was like, okay, well, I gotta. I gotta go and, like, went out and they, like, went and got, you know, drinks. They were in New Orleans. They went to a jazz bar and whatever. And I'm, like, alone in my bunk. And so he came back, and I was really upset and felt, like, really alone. So we, you know, when we got back from tour, we sat with Tim and we kind of worked on it together. And it, you know, his. He started talking about the helplessness that he felt when I was not doing well. There was nothing that he could do. And so even just the thought of sitting there with me was hard and overwhelming for him because he wanted to be able to help. And I was like, well, that made me feel lonely. But even just the fact that we could go back home and go, hey, what was going on in you during that time and not let it fester and get back on the same page, it's made that much more of a difference to where now when it happens. He knows, just give me five minutes. That's really all I need. And I know, oh, this is hard for him. And it's hard for him to, like, want to help and not be able to help, because that's his drive to do. Then we can be back on the same page again. So it's really been for as rough of a two years as it's been. It's been an amazing two years for us, emotionally together.

[Unnamed Guest]

Yeah, a lot of growing. Yeah, it's amazing. I'm curious, Abner, from when you first saw her across the room, what's changed in your mind about marriage relationships to today? You know, it sounds like you had a beautiful picture of what marriage relationships are. How has that changed? Today?

[Abner Ramirez]

I saw marriage like a finish line or even relationship. Like you just kind of achieved the thing, and now you have the temple, you have whatever. It's just there. It's the beginning of the race. It's the beginning of the journey. And I realized that the finish line is completely. The thought of a finish line is completely evaporated. The only finish line is toe tags and body bags. That's the only finish line. That constant growth, constant movement, like a river. We say often we are rivers, not lakes, and we talk about that with money, with helping folks with all kinds of stuff, but also relationally, we are rivers, not lakes. This thing, this usness, doesn't just sit and fester and Gather dust. You know what I mean? This usness is constantly moving, and that means a lot of things. That means we change and we grow as people. God forbid we stay the same. My biggest fear as a married man was that she would ever be able to say about me, that's not the man I married. Because you go through seasons in life. Everybody's dating, everybody gets married, everybody has kids. And then you go through the divorce season where everybody's getting divorced. And like, the big quote that I would hear when friends were going through those times was, she's just not the person I married, or, he's not the man I married anymore. And I want the man I married, not this guy. And that was like the big kind of justification to the big move on. And my greatest fear was to ever hear her say that. And so as we. There's a song in the album called Psilocybin. When I was deep, like, lost in my depression and couldn't really. Was having a hard time catching my breath, as it were, I came to the room in the studio where she was writing a song and asked her what song she was writing, and she said, it's actually a song for you, and it's a song about me changing. And it's essentially a song that says, you're not the man that I married. And the chorus says, but if you change, I'm changing, too. And it was the most to my core, man. And even to your question, like, what's changed in my performance about my perspective of marriage is really. You hear it from childhood. It's two becoming one. There's a oneness. There's all this stuff. But, man, if it's not the truth, if that's not just the beginning of the layers of the onion, just how one marriage is meant to be, that for my wife, it's not even a love song, but it's the most romantic thing I've ever heard. If you change, I'm changing, too. If you're not the man I married, then I'm not the woman you married. And we're going the same way together. We're going to take that journey together. So that's. That's probably the biggest thing that's amazing.

[Kyle Reed]

Changes about his wife. You ever leave me, I'm going with you. The album is when the war is over. The band, the couple is Johnny Swim. So grateful to have you on the show.

[Abner Ramirez]

Honored to be here.

[Unnamed Guest]

Now we're gonna go get to listen to you guys music for us.

[Amanda Sudano]

It's awesome.

[Abner Ramirez]

I met a man who lost one.

[Amanda Sudano]

Spirit with your wine in your blood.

[Abner Ramirez]

Shot crying thinking like a D never pays Just roll on your knees Somehow we have Johnny Swim. Thanks for your time.

[Bobby Richards]

Thanks for listening to the why that Worked podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you like the show, follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're Enjoying this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and leave a comment letting us know what you think and what you want the guys to talk about in a future episode. Curious about how StoryBrand AI can help you create clear, effective messaging? Well, you can try it out right now and create a free customized tagline for your business. Just go to storybrand AI. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.