James Sweeting (4:20)

Do.

David Kessler (4:21)

Do you network really well with other people, but, like, can't really do it yourself. Are you great on a team? I mean, I could keep going. There's millions of things here, right?

James Sweeting (4:29)

This is great. Well, I guess. I mean, even to jump into that, where do you start to build a different relationship with yourself if you have ADHD or, like, you don't know, or if you just feel like some days I'm operating on all cylinders, I'm a happy golden retriever, and I might get a little distracted. But then some days I'm like, I don't even know what foot to get out of bed first with. You know what I mean? How do I even start my day with the feet moving one step with the next step?

David Kessler (4:56)

We start by destroying Norman Rockwell. It's the way things are supposed to look. And I think that there are reasons why people who are ADHD organize with piles. There's object permanent stuff, right? So, like, if something's in a drawer, it actually disappears for me, Right? But if I have things in a pile, I'll know what's in which pile. I'll see the purpose of every pile. Now, if my partner, my business partner looked at me and was like, you got to get rid of these pot 86 those piles. Like, I need you to spend the day, organize all the stuff. Get rid of every single one of those piles. I'd be like, okay, like, I really, like, make people happy. And, like, I'll do that, and I'll put my best effort in organizing all those piles. Now lose everything.

Unknown (5:34)

Feeling like you have. You should do it. You have to do it, but it's not what's best for you and your work style.

David Kessler (5:41)

Well, and it's the ROI with your time and energy. Exactly. Like, I think that people often think we have to look in a certain way. And for me, I think we got to get really focused on what the task is. What is the. If we don't know what the task is, we're going to spiral and just try to look cool.

James Sweeting (5:56)

Oh, my gosh. I feel like there's so many people that are listening that are like, oh, my gosh, you just saw me. Because that is so much where you get in your own way about, oh, my gosh, am I doing it right before you're even just considering? Well, what actually am I doing? What do I need to be doing right now?

David Kessler (6:15)

I wonder about the person that first dunked a basketball. No one had done it before, and they're like, well, why don't I just put it directly into the hole? You know, you don't know if you're cheating or not, you're waiting to get called out. Am I an imposter? Did I just break a rule? And now look at us. And I think all too often someone with ADHD or someone who's neurodivergent is on a cutting edge of something. I mean, there are a lot of us that own businesses for good reason. That risk is important and we're good with it.

James Sweeting (6:46)

Well, and it's also structure. If it's, you get to create your own structure. Like, hey, I run my business where I have piles on my desk. I run my business where I started, you know, at 5pm and then I work through the night and I go to bed at 8:00am, you know, like all that kind of stuff, then the double edged sword is sometimes if that structure doesn't work for somebody else who's engaging with you or maybe even a client, you know, then you can feel stuck in going, well, how do I, how do I build in those accommodations? How can I be more flexible?

David Kessler (7:14)

Yeah, an accommodation for one person isn't necessarily an accommodation for another person. Right? What helps one person helps one person. And I think it's important that we share like what works for us. When you're talking about major business strategy or things like that, I think about what has worked for you in the past. And let's not look at that with a view of luck. Like, let's look at that with like what actually was happening. You may be at the right place at the right time. Maybe you were working with another person. Maybe you, you talk with one person to get different ideas. And it's like, and how can we replicate that now? You don't have to recreate the entire wheel for me. Working with other people isn't a major accommodation for me. Like I'm a co founder of the Willow Center. Right. And Sarah the owner. Right. We work together and we have very different strengths. Our strengths are not in competition. She's not trying to get my strengths or my vulnerabilities stronger. I'm not trying to get her vulnerability stronger. We're both leaning on each other's strengths. And so shame and guilt make us work alone. And if you're working alone because of shame and guilt, like you got to break that. I could tell you when I was in grad school and I needed to write a paper, I'm of course doing it the ADHD way where I think about it for three or four weeks and then write a 20 page paper overnight. And so knowing that I'm going to do it that way actually. And not beating myself for doing it differently changes this. Right. And then all of a sudden I go, no, no, no. I'm going to do this like probably the last two days and I'm going to be really overwhelmed. So I should probably go grocery shopping, get a lot of like sugar free Red Bull and Diet Coke because that's what I usually have when I'm working really well. And then for the next anywhere from 12 to 36 hours I am working and I have a specific room that I work in and a specific chair that I work in. And I think that there's a real benefit to environment, like unlocking skills and AB in business. Right. It's like, what kind of energies was I surrounded by? What kind of people did my ideas come around? What time of day did my ideas come around? Are there any things in my life, anything in my life right now taking energy away from me that I didn't have before?

Unknown (9:24)

Almost a self audit of sorts.

David Kessler (9:27)

Exactly.

James Sweeting (9:28)

You're not auditing yourself to then follow and be the status quo or to be like what you think everyone needs you to be. I love that, David, so much. Because if you quote, unquote, procrastinate and that's how you work, then that's how you work. Like accept that.

David Kessler (9:45)

Well, yes. And I think the other thing we always have to accept is starting is the hardest part. It's like starting is the hardest and then ending the middle. That's the easy part. Right. So it's like the accommodations are so important in the beginning of stuff, especially in business, any kind of major marketing push. It's like you want to make sure you're doing that work in the very beginning. It's hard.

James Sweeting (10:08)

What's the best way to continue to practice that? It's almost like you can condition yourself to go, this is how I work when there's a giant deadline looming. How can you weave that into your day to day just to go, okay, when I get home, I need to make sure I cook dinner for my family or else they're not going to eat.

David Kessler (10:24)

This is when things get a lot harder. Because I think the context of ADHD is like, we're really good in high pressure crunch situations.

James Sweeting (10:32)

Right? Right. But what about everything else that's the majority of the time?

David Kessler (10:36)

Well, we're really good at going with the flow. Right. But we're not necessarily good at creating structure in that. And I think like I heard this thing from one of my colleagues, Kaylee, at work, which I think is like so poignant. It's adhd loves structure, hates routine. And so when I think about structure versus routine, it's the, like, what we do here versus how to do it here, right. I love disc golf, right? That's just structure for walking in the park for like an hour. If the routine around disc golf would be like, you have to show up at this time. This is the thing that you, this is where you do it. This is how you do it. These are the people that you're with, like all the rules and regulations. That's really caustic. Doing it every Thursday at 6, right? Like that would be harder to do. The more we can make something a structure for you. Like what kinds of things would you need to make cooking easier when you got home? Because now we're talking about the structure, the actual environment of when you get home. Are you cooking or doing that thing every day or just one day out of the month? Right. Because it would actually be easier to do it every day than remembering one day out of the month. And so I think when you're, when you're thinking about dividing and conquering, the different things you have to do that are small things in life, it's important and it's rewarding in a different way. I can go off on a big tangent here, but like, everyone talks about like dopamine and you know, how important it is to be reinforced and going towards the shiny light and all that kind of stuff. This is about norepinephrine. Nora doesn't get talked about enough. She deserves a lot more credit. What I mean by that is she's going to evaluate what you did throughout the day. And at the end of the day, when you're beating yourself up at the end of the night, like when you're laying down and you're having those ruminations of like, why didn't I, I should have done this. And that's Nora giving it to you, right? However, if you're stretching out and you're going to bed, you're like, this was the best of days. I feel really accomplished. I got these things done. Like, that's also Nora. And so what we know is when you do things you don't want to do, you are highly reinforced by Nora later. Doing something you don't want to do makes you feel better, builds your self esteem. If you can't do the thing, then you need help. And I think in business you often have to know, how do I know? Like when this is a task for somebody else versus when this is something I'm supposed to Do I'm thinking about.

James Sweeting (12:52)

When I'm building out my schedule, and I use a full focus planner, and I just get so much. I don't know if it's dopamine or if it's If. If it's nora, but when I just take the time and I go through and I know that all of the blocks of my days and all of the specific times throughout the week are all scheduled and intentional, it's a great roadmap for me. It's an amazing accommodation for sort of where I struggle with my adhd. The question I have, though, is what I'm trying to get clear in my own head is, is that building in routines for that? Because I know that you were saying that the enemy of ADHD is routine. What's that difference between routine and. With structure is struct that it can sort of change and adapt. But routine is. It has to be this, and it has to be this. And in a way, it almost. I want to fight it already because it's trying to tell me what to do.

David Kessler (13:42)

Think about the structure that walking into an open gymnasium would give you. Okay, right. There are balls in every corner. There's a lot of different things you can do. There's structure there, versus, like, going into a basketball practice that has every minute kind of structured because structure and routine are going to be together, but, like, they're going to be chained together. Right. There's an ordinal nature to things all of a sudden, versus this is where we do these things. There's a saying that I have that I use in the room and I talk about, I think for both business consults and for people is if you have to, you can tell someone what to do. You can't tell them how to do it.

James Sweeting (14:21)

Okay, Right.

David Kessler (14:22)

So you can be like, hey, I'm going to just pick a normal thing, like, take out the garbage. Right? And it's like, okay, I can tell you to take out the garbage. I can't say, hey, take out the garbage, put it in the blue bin, move the blue bin to the right corner. Make sure that you get different ties. And those things are on the. Like, the moment I'm getting to that level of complexity, think about, like, how complex I just made something versus just like, clean up the garbage. Like a general structure of something. And I think in business, if you're very worried about how someone's going to do something, maybe they shouldn't do it or they're not the right person to do it.

Unknown (14:53)

I love that I'm curious About your take on, you know, business owners with ADHD and perfectionism and the interplay between that and wanting to have everything just right, just the way that I want it.

David Kessler (15:04)

Oh, my goodness. Okay. So, like, perfectionism is a protective element around self esteem. There's a big difference, I think, between self esteem and self efficacy. And I think those words get, like, tossed around in very different ways. And I think at its base level, self esteem is just knowing that you're not going to be destroyed if you do something.

Bobby Richards (15:23)

That's it.

David Kessler (15:24)

Some people think, like, I got to feel great or I have to feel amazing or I have to feel super confident and all that. Nope, that's not self esteem. That's self efficacy. Self efficacy is like knowing what you need to make the things go the way you really want them to go, knowing all the different variables in the thing. Right. And so perfectionism can look like a number of different things. It can be protecting yourself from the Norman Rockwell laser. Like, and that's just, like, the different assumptions people will make based on, like, what they see or how things need to look or how things need to be perfect on the outside, or people know that, like, I'm not perfect on the inside. And I want to speak to another part of, like, the ADHD perfectionism club for a second. I believe people with ADHD have a much more profound understanding of environmental variables than other people do. And so you might look at, like, no, no, this light has to be at 70%. And it's like, well, it doesn't really. It's like, no, wait, maybe it does. And I think, like, the understanding of how. How different things can change a nervous system or the way a person experiences something can't easily be articulated, but it is experienced within the world of neurodiversity. So perfectionism is the enemy of good. Right? It is this protective thing. But I think it's also something we get involved in. In the absence of language. We don't know how to articulate why something needs to feel a different way or why this is the only way it can feel. And I think in the absence of that language or in the absence of the validation of another way, we're kind of stuck in a. In a loop. And I think the perfectionism, for me, I think it's really effective for some people. It only becomes a problem if it's a problem for you or people that you work with. I can't work with anyone. Everyone quits. It's like, well, then that's a problem for you. But I think that if you are dealing with perfectionism and you take life at a different speed, but it doesn't bother you, I think that's not a place to make it pathological. I often find it really interesting too that when I watch people who engage in a lot of perfectionism, they never expect it from other people.

Unknown (17:30)

Why do you think that is really?

David Kessler (17:31)

Well, I think in the context of self esteem, they're going to assume that other people are okay and, or they can take care of another person and this is their way of taking care of people. And I think that like we can look for like, you know, all the Freudian, like you're a mother or like we could go into like all those places. But I think that like humans like do things that make sense and that are protective for us.

James Sweeting (17:53)

The Creators Are Brands podcast, hosted by Tom Boyd, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Creators are Brands explores how storytellers are building brands online, from the mindsets to the tactics, all the way to the business side. The show breaks down what's working so you can apply that to your own mission. In a recent episode titled 3K to 45K on Instagram in one year selling digital products and quitting his job, Tom talks to Gamble and Meyer about his incredible journey to social media success. They unpack actionable strategies for building a loyal audience, how you can monetize digital products, and how to create meaningful brand partnerships. So whether you're looking to grow your presence online or turn your content into a profitable business, this episode and this show offers practical takeaways you can start applying right away. Listen to creators, our brands, wherever you get your podcasts. And now back to the show. There's so many times when I can struggle to offload tasks on my own day. Just even menial things of like how to write an email where in theory it's easy for me to go, well, let me just write a template. Well, I don't know how I do it in the moment, but sometimes I do it in the moment. So let me just keep writing all these emails out, but it can easily be offloaded to somebody on our team or going, okay, cool. Well, I record a certain way and I do this a certain way or I do this a certain way. I could show you how to do it, but ultimately I don't quite know how to show you how to do it. So I'm just going to keep doing it where I can label myself a control freak. And what it really is is going, oh, I just don't quite know how to verbalize this.

David Kessler (19:35)

Yes, I think this is where understanding what are normal parts of ADHD become really important for the context of business growth, individual growth, vocational, scholastic growth. Right. Like, because it would help, you know, what you should be working on and what you should continue to expect. And I think, like, you know, unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments. And I think we often don't talk about what our expectations are, and we lead ourselves to resenting ourselves or other people for not doing these things. And I think part of what we're talking about right now is just getting clear on how's this going to look, what are we supposed to do? How do you like to work? What do you need to start your day? And I think we don't ask ourselves those questions. And I think that's an important thing to maybe back up and talk about. It's also why Isabel and I started Something Shiny. We wanted people to have an accurate place to be able to understand what is a part of you and what doesn't have to be there.

James Sweeting (20:31)

And that podcast, Something Shiny Podcast, is just such a great window into so much of. I mean, you unpack so much more in each episode, just like everything that you've been breaking down today. So calling that out to the audience, to everybody listening, if, you know, the conversation we've been having with David today has been blowing your mind and making you feel like you're like, I get myself now. Check out Something Shiny Podcast and you'll get so many more aha moments.

David Kessler (21:03)

We're not alone. And I think we don't know what questions to even ask. There's a beautiful. I'll just say this, like, object permanence is a very real thing when it comes to adhd. And what that means is, like, out of sight, out of mind. Right? And that could be such a bad thing. Like, oh, I forgot to be home, I forgot to do this thing, or I forgot to call you. It's not that the person isn't important, but you literally forgot because they disappeared. And that gets talked about as, like, a negative all the time. Right. In the context of, like, starting a business, those hours you need to invest in a business. The absence of object permanence is what helps you work for 12 to 15 hours for getting. You need water. And I think that we can knowledge that that's not so great, you know, getting dehydrated. But, like, that's incredible work. It's not about how it's all bad. And I think, like, the Branding and marketing around ADHD has been really problematic. We are talking about things that have strengths and vulnerabilities, just like within neurotypical people. But I think if we're stuck trying to look like everyone else, we're kind of wasting our time a little bit.

James Sweeting (22:02)

James, I'm thinking like so much of this just in our conversations that we've had with like Megan Hyatt Miller, other conversations that we've had with different guests that have been on the show and other thought leaders, it's finding the intention, like you say, object permanence, but really coming down to even how Megan Hyatt Miller and Michael Hyatt talk about it, where you've got three priorities. You've got your daily big three, you've got the weekly big three, and then you've got all these priorities that you're setting up for the quarter. And just thinking about that, if you don't have those specific goals and mile markers that you're trying to hit, everything's just, it's all noise and you can't do everything all at the same time. So if you don't dial the volume level down on some of the other things that maybe other people are priorities or maybe they are priorities to you, but they just can't be right now. Then like you said, it's not a negative thing for you to go, hey, I'm going to have to turn off this specific priority that I'm just getting right now. It's more of a distraction. I got to focus on these things. You're really just going to be inching along and really feel like you're struggling and frustrated moving forward just in your day to day.

David Kessler (23:10)

Well, and that's why when you work on a bunch of things and you get 15% accomplished on 13 different projects, you don't get that Nora reward of accomplishing one thing. And so you spend your day going like, what did I even do today? And so like, I think it becomes important to not be driven by the feelings, but be driven just like you were saying, Bobby, about like with a plan.

James Sweeting (23:32)

Yep.

Unknown (23:33)

So good. David, what would you say so for, for, you know, a small business owner listening right now that's just having these, these light bulb moments going, oh my gosh. I, this is me. At the end of every episode, we like to lean into a plan of action. Just a practical takeaway, a practical step that our listeners can take away from the conversation. What would you like to leave our listeners with, with something that they can.

David Kessler (23:54)

Do If I were to pull one thing from, like, if I want someone to know one thing, I'd want them to know that they're not alone. And finding a safe person to ask for help is really important. And I don't mean help within, like, you know, psychological way only. But I mean, like, who's your mentor? Who can you trust? The one other thing I'd say is the plan of action is you've already done this. You've already been successful. Take those ingredients and use those in the future problems to see what else you can do.

James Sweeting (24:19)

Well, David, that's great because I know.

Bobby Richards (24:21)

You have the something shiny ADHD focus and flow finder.

James Sweeting (24:25)

Everything that you've been talking about today, when you were in that perfect place, when you're replaying it in your head of going, man, I just nailed it. Was that early? Was that late? Were you with people? Were you by yourself? Were you caffeinated? Were you not? All that stuff is in that checklist we did.

David Kessler (24:41)

It's somethingshinypodcast.com BMS so somethingshinypodcast.

James Sweeting (24:47)

Com BMS go check that out. David, this has been one of my most favorite conversations that we've had on the show to not only help people understand how they can become better business owners, but really just better understand themselves and give themselves grace and not get caught up in that shame spiral because you got enough going on as a business owner. You don't need to be beaten down on yourself. David, this has been so great. Thank you for coming on.

David Kessler (25:12)

Thank you so much for having me on.

Bobby Richards (25:14)

So for everybody out there, go to somethingshinypodcast.com BMS get yourself a free focus and flow finder to find your focus and flow and start redeveloping a new relationship with your brain.

James Sweeting (25:27)

You deserve it.

Bobby Richards (25:28)

All right, that's all for this week's episode of Business Made simple where we are obsessed with helping you become a better business owner. And this week doing that through embracing who you are. And spoiler alert, you're great.

James Sweeting (25:38)

We'll see you next week.