#23: Dadville—The New Rules of Being a Great Dad

Summary

Why That Worked – Presented by StoryBrand.ai
Episode #23: Dadville—The New Rules of Being a Great Dad
Release Date: June 9, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode #23 of Why That Worked presented by StoryBrand.ai, hosts Donald Miller and Kyle Reed engage in a profound conversation with special guests Dave Barnes and John McLaughlin, the hosts of the popular podcast Dadville. This episode delves into the evolving dynamics of fatherhood, challenging traditional perceptions and exploring the new rules of being a great dad.

Transition from Business Messaging to Parental Messaging

Donald Miller introduces the theme of the episode by highlighting a shift from business-centric messaging to personal messaging within the context of parenting.

Donald Miller [02:52]: "It's a messaging podcast, so we usually talk about, like, why Airbnb's new messaging works and that sort of thing. I thought, man, it'd be really fun to take a little bit of a left turn and talk about messaging as a dad."

Traditional Family Roles and Cultural Narratives

Dave Barnes and John McLaughlin discuss the ingrained cultural narratives that often depict fathers as aloof or less involved compared to mothers. They critique societal expectations that lower the bar for fatherly involvement, leading to a lack of motivation for dads to engage deeply in parenting.

Dave Barnes [06:20]: "That was when my girls were young... If you take one step back, I'm doing nothing. I'm just pushing my kids up the street, and this woman is walking past me and she says, you are such a great dad."

Donald Miller [05:28]: "It's a message that sells. It's a narrative that sells sitcoms."

Personal Experiences and Anecdotes

The guests share personal stories that illustrate the disparity in appreciation between fathers and mothers. Dave recounts being unexpectedly praised for minimal parental involvement, contrasting it with the unappreciated efforts of mothers.

Dave Barnes [07:00]: "If you take anything, like, take one step back, I'm Doing nothing... My first reaction was not like, huh, that's funny. I'm not doing it. I walked past, I was like, I am a great kid."

Intentional Messaging and Family Vision

Donald emphasizes the importance of intentional communication within the family. He discusses setting a clear vision and establishing rules that foster a supportive and respectful household.

Donald Miller [15:07]: "I went into this situation and said, here's the vision for our family. Our home is gonna be a place of hospitality... Dad never raises his voice, period."

Vulnerability and Apologies in Parenting

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the role of vulnerability and the power of apologies in building trust with children. Dave and John advocate for openly acknowledging mistakes to model humility and foster secure relationships.

Donald Miller [27:56]: "That's a conversation we will have to have. And I hope that she realizes... that she deserved better."

John McLaughlin [31:24]: "I learned that I moved to defensiveness really quick because I can find all the reasons why I did the thing I did or I'm justified in it."

Building Healthy Relationships with Children

The guests explore strategies for nurturing healthy relationships with their children by being self-aware and accepting their own flaws. They emphasize the importance of children feeling safe to express their feelings and intuitions.

John McLaughlin [32:43]: "There is nothing that my daughters could do where they would affect my love. That's the one top thing I want."

Dave Barnes [30:02]: "And I laughed so hard. A friend of mine had just had his third kid last year... it's just so much of a lot of things."

Communicating Unconditional Love and Positive Messages

Unconditional love emerges as a fundamental message the fathers wish to impart to their children. Dave highlights the universality of this message across diverse backgrounds and beliefs.

Dave Barnes [33:40]: "There is nothing that my daughters could do where they would affect my love. That's the one top thing I want."

Overcoming Masculine Norms in Parenting

Both Dave and John reflect on overcoming traditional masculine norms that discourage emotional expression. They discuss the challenges and rewards of embracing vulnerability to strengthen familial bonds.

John McLaughlin [37:00]: "I grew up in a way where that kind of talk wasn't expressed that way, that wasn't a verbalized thing."

Dave Barnes [35:35]: "I want to thank both of you guys for being out there and leading. Not just this conversation, but leading as an inspiration to all of us."

Reflections on Upbringing and Improving Parenting Practices

Donald shares insights from his upbringing, contrasting it with his current approach to fatherhood. He emphasizes the importance of emotional provision and apologizing to children to foster a secure and loving environment.

Donald Miller [29:27]: "I just think something really powerful. The other day, my daughter literally said to me, and you guys will identify with this."

Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with the hosts expressing gratitude to Dave and John for their valuable contributions. They encourage listeners to tune into Dadville for more insights and highlight the importance of clear and intentional messaging in both business and parenting.

Donald Miller [44:46]: "It's great messages that we deliver as a dad. I want to thank both of you guys for being out there and leading."

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Key Takeaways

1. Intentional Communication: Fathers should adopt clear and intentional messaging within the family to build strong, respectful relationships.

2. Vulnerability Matters: Openly acknowledging mistakes and expressing apologies fosters trust and emotional security in children.

3. Unconditional Love: Consistently conveying unconditional love provides a stable and supportive foundation for children.

4. Challenging Cultural Norms: Breaking away from traditional masculine norms allows fathers to engage more deeply and emotionally with their families.

5. Personal Growth: Fathers must engage in self-awareness and continual personal growth to effectively lead and support their families.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Dave Barnes [06:20]: "If you take one step back, I'm doing nothing. I'm just pushing my kids up the street..."

• Donald Miller [05:28]: "It's a message that sells. It's a narrative that sells sitcoms."

• John McLaughlin [31:24]: "I learned that I moved to defensiveness really quick..."

• Dave Barnes [33:40]: "There is nothing that my daughters could do where they would affect my love."

Conclusion

This episode of Why That Worked offers insightful perspectives on modern fatherhood, emphasizing the significance of clear communication, emotional vulnerability, and intentional parenting. Dave Barnes and John McLaughlin provide relatable anecdotes and actionable advice, inspiring fathers to redefine their roles and build healthier, more fulfilling relationships with their children.

Transcript

[Donald Miller]

Foreign.

[Kyle Reed]

You're listening to the why that Work podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you've ever wondered why certain brands, trends or cultural phenomena find success while others don't, you're in the right place. Every week, we unpack why something worked, then give you actionable insights that you can use in your own life. Now let's dive in with your hosts, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed.

[John McLaughlin]

On today's show, we have two very important and special guests who are in studio with us. Joining us today discussing an important topic about dadding. And when Dave Barnes isn't towing tourist vehicles from the front of his Driveway or John McLaughlin isn't on his private jet, they host a podcast called Dadville. Now, I'm not going to try to compete with their brag sheet to introduce them, but I'm just going to say, guys, welcome in to the why that Worked podcast.

[Dave Barnes]

Thank you for having us.

[John McLaughlin]

I'd love to set the context, tell us a little bit about you guys, your families. I know you have kids, you were married. Give a little context to why we asked you guys to discuss this important topic.

[Unknown]

Yeah, we're wondering. Actually, we were hoping you could unfold.

[John McLaughlin]

That special and important.

[Unknown]

We are here to get answers. Thank you, John.

[Dave Barnes]

Yeah, we don't get answers. Yes, we are. So we've known each other, Dave and I, through music. We both are musicians. We met 20 some years ago. And then about 10 years ago, we found ourselves living right across the street from each other here in Nashville, Tennessee. We found ourselves with wives, we found ourselves with kids.

[Donald Miller]

This is a talking head song.

[Unknown]

Well, it feels like a cult.

[Dave Barnes]

We may find ourselves.

[Unknown]

With a wife.

[Dave Barnes]

And our kids. Dave has three, I have two. They like stair step in age perfectly. And we, you know, we just found ourselves living lives together and doing this dad thing. And we would constantly be sitting on each other's porches talking about our kids.

[Unknown]

And talking with each other. Not. I wouldn't sit on his. Well, sometimes I'd sit on by myself.

[Dave Barnes]

And just any iteration happened by myself. We were young and. And one day Dave was like, hey, do you want to do a podcast called Dadville? And I was like, let's do it.

[Donald Miller]

And it has blown up.

[Dave Barnes]

It has blown up. Depending on your definition of what blown up means. Boy, has it blown up.

[Unknown]

It is. It is everywhere. Again, depending on what your definition of everywhere is.

[Donald Miller]

Dozens of dozens. Just all across the states.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah, it's been fun, genuinely. Like John said, you know, we literally live across the street from each other. And so, you know, being involved in each other's lives and knowing each other's kids, and there's already such a simpatico there that's already happening. So it's a pretty natural out flowing of that, you know.

[John McLaughlin]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Which works.

[John McLaughlin]

And so, you know, Don, when we were talking about having these guys on, you kind of led with a really interesting topic. You want to set that up for the day?

[Unknown]

And then. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Well, we're a messaging podcast, so we usually talk about, like, why Airbnb's new messaging works and that sort of thing. That's. That's our angle. And I thought, man, it'd be really fun to kind of take a little bit of a left turn and actually just talk about messaging as a dad. Like, what. What are the most. What are the critical messages that you've got to communicate?

[Unknown]

Well, you know, I'll say this quickly, Don. Something that. That Al Andrews are. Dear friend told me really early on, who runs or ran Porter's call here in Nashville?

[Donald Miller]

It's a therapy. Therapy place.

[Unknown]

Yeah. But I asked Al before I got married, I was like, andy and I were engaged. And I said, you know, do you have any wisdom for me? And he was like, you know, Dave, I'll tell you this. He said, you know, let's take a test sample of, like, a hundred couples just for a nice round number that I meet with that are having a problem. He said, I always meet with the man first. And he said, probably 90% of the time, I don't need to meet with a woman.

[Donald Miller]

Wow. What's his reasoning for that?

[Unknown]

Well, I just think, you know, this is how I think of it. I sort of. I think, you know, men are the weather. Women are the weather vane. And it's not that women can't cause problems. It's not that women can't be problematic at all. We all are. But I do think in a marital context, that what Al was saying that I really do believe is, like, men. Men are kind of the. The determiners of a lot of things. And I think women are responders to a lot of things. And I think in general. In general, yeah, absolutely.

[Donald Miller]

There are anomalies all over the place.

[Unknown]

Anomalies all over the place. But to his point, 90. So, you know, it's not like all the time, but. But he would say definitely the majority of that. And so it was a call to me to just kind of realize that, like, in those moments, I'm like, what is her deal? That's not the right question. And so then the question is, hey, did I How are we? What's happened? And early in my marriage, it was laughable how many times that I was like, why is she so mad? Or why is she distant or what, that she would say, do you remember yesterday when you said this thing? It really hurt. And I was like, oh, my gosh. So, yeah, it was me not being a good leader. It's not me being a good husband, a steward of this relationship. So I do think. And I think that's very true of kids, too, in that I just think dads. I think, to your point, Donald, our culture has really. It's that Brian Regan bit about, you know, the dad being lost in the window thing and he can't get out in the commercial. And the mom's, like, shrugging. She's like, there's old Jim. Well, I don't know where I am. You know, it's like our culture's really sort of adopted this idea of, like, the Everybody Loves Raymond thing, where the dad, sort of the aloof sort of like, doesn't know what he's doing, you know, and the mom's like, this sort.

[Donald Miller]

Of like, it's a message that sells.

[Unknown]

It's a message that sells.

[Donald Miller]

It's a narrative that sells sitcoms.

[Unknown]

It does. And I think, what would you say.

[John McLaughlin]

The harm of that. What does that message has done to our culture?

[Unknown]

I think dads can take the easy way out because it's expected. I just think we don't have to rise to the occasion. And moms we had. When Morgan came on the show, she was talking about Mental Load. She wrote this book on it, and it was just so interesting to see how much women bear Mental Load. She talks about men, too. It's not at all exclusive to women. But I think the point is your question, which is such a great question, Kyle. We've sort of normalized this idea that men just handle work and women handle kind of everything else. And I think.

[Dave Barnes]

And anything that men do outside of.

[Unknown]

Work is just, oh, my, look at you. You have what a dad. I mean, John has this hysterical story, but actually, you should tell this because it's funny.

[Dave Barnes]

This was early on in the podcast. I mean, maybe the first episode. It had just happened before we had recorded, like, our very first episode. And this is when my girls were young. And so I had the double stroller, and I'm pushing it up Belmont Boulevard to meet Amy, my wife, for coffee. And I'm just pushing my kids up the street.

[Unknown]

That's it.

[Dave Barnes]

If you take anything, like, take one step back, I'm Doing nothing. I mean, I'm just pushing my kids up the street, and this woman is walking past me and she stops me and she says, you are such a great dad. I kid you not.

[Unknown]

That's the bar. Yeah.

[Dave Barnes]

And my first reaction was not what I'm saying right now.

[Donald Miller]

Stolen. These kids.

[Dave Barnes]

You don't even know that these are my kids. My first reaction was not like, huh, that's funny. I'm not doing it. I walked past, I was like, I am a great kid.

[John McLaughlin]

Yes.

[Dave Barnes]

Thank you. You know, I don't. People don't thank me enough. It wasn't until, you know, other conversations with people, the expectations are very low. She would have never, probably, I'm assuming if my wife were pushing our girls up the street to meet me for coffee, I don't think that woman would have stopped and been like, gosh, you were such a good mom.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Dave Barnes]

Amy would have been confused. Like, why are you saying that to me? But men just for doing the bare minimum, get praised, you know, which praise is great. But it's like, you know, it's a double standard for sure.

[John McLaughlin]

And, you know, with that bar so low, what. What kind of motivates you guys to not just stay there? You know, like, if. If it's that quote unquote easy to just kind of be looked on as good, what pushes you forward beyond just pushing your kids up this, you know, the hill to be a good dad? What's kind of that driver to go, you know, to what Don said earlier? Kind of that. The leader of the home. What is that for you guys?

[Unknown]

I think. I think. And again, Don, you're right. We've had so many guests. Don't always laugh. That the podcast is really just a selfish pursuit. I mean, it's. To sit with these people who just have such great stories and wisdom and expertise. It's just absolutely selfish ambition with John and I. But I think when you. When you see families where a dad is just really, really plugged in and is present and is leading and is sacrificial and is servant hearted, the dynamic is just like the craziest thing to see. It's like something done at a level that it's just like the greenhouse is overflowing with growth. The kids are, you know, wonderful kids. The wife is a loving, supportive wife, whatever. And it's just really. It's. You just can't deny that dynamic. It's just so powerful and. And it's something that John and I are both borderline obsessed with. It's just like, what. What what is that? Why is. What is that dynamic? And consistently, I think it's just dads who exhibit those qualities in a really. Yeah, just do all those things. Which is a lot of things, but it takes a lot of work. And so I think there's a call in those moments for those men to kind of go like, hey, I actually have pretty high standards for myself here. I don't just want to bring home the bacon or whatever. I really want to be plugged in and I want to give guidance and I want to know. I mean, I watched this video almost posted on our Dadville channel, but it was one of the most heartbreaking things. One, because it terrified me. But it was this Instagram video where this guy's going around with a mic and he's somewhere in la, near downtown la, and he's just asking dads, obvious dads. Cause they're walking like, hey, did you see this video? It was. It broke my heart, made me laugh and terrified of me. And. And he just says, okay, so this daughter. Yeah, like, it's real interviews. Like, these are not staged. He's like, all right, can you tell me the name of her teacher? And the dead. Ah, man. And then he's like, what's her favorite subject? And he's like, go, bro, shoot. And one of them, he's like, what grade is she in? And he's like, oh, honey, sixth. Fifth. Sixth. Okay, shoot. And I think one thing, it's terrifying. Two, it's hysterical. But three, it's this thing that's like, there's a point. I mean, quick side story. I went in, this happened to me. I walked in my kids school a couple years ago and Annie told me, will you go in and get. Cause one of our kids was sick. She said, well, you go in and get the homework. So this is a true story. I walk in and I walk into the class. You know, none of the kids are in there. It's like right before school, and I walk in and the teacher. And then the moment I walked in, I was like, oh, oh, oh. Cause she's looking at me like kind of, oh, hey. Not like, oh, hey, Dave, what do you need? It was like, oh, what a pleasant surprise. And I knew in that moment this is not the right class. And so she literally looks at me, she's like, dave, what's going on? It's like, oh, just here to get Santa's homework. And she's like, oh, so you know, I had her last year. And I was like, I know. Just like, but what's up with you? Like, what are you. Where are you at today? How you coming in? You good? I mean. And she literally was like, she's next door. I was like, all right, well, I'm gonna bargazzi, literally.

[Donald Miller]

Has you seen this bit?

[Unknown]

Oh, yes.

[Donald Miller]

Where he's like, have you seen the bit where they call him. The school calls him. The bit ends with. All right, all right. What's the name of the school he's gotta go to?

[Unknown]

The. So I just, you know, I just think there's something to that, you know?

[Donald Miller]

Did you guys experience the thing? All of us have had this before. We had a kid. My competency level as a husband felt very high. I mean, you know, lots of vision, good provision, building a house, you know, building a company, making sure we do date night. We go on vacations. And I mean, when you know, very clear who the man in charge is. And then we brought home that kid.

[Unknown]

Oh, man.

[Donald Miller]

And I knew nothing. And she knew everything. And everything she knew was more important than anything that I knew because, like, this is a life. This is a life that's going to die if we don't feed the life. This is, you know, here's how you. And all of a sudden, I'm the sous chef.

[John McLaughlin]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Immediately, I'm the sous chef in the kitchen. And by the way, not a good one.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Like, don't know how to, you know. You call this lukewarm. This is what you would call lukewarm.

[Unknown]

That's not the way you mean formula, Don.

[Donald Miller]

It's like, did you. Did you sanitize coffee? Do you want her to get sick? Yeah, I'm like, totally. Yes, chef. Yes, chef.

[Dave Barnes]

I remember looking at Amy when Luca first was born and feeling exactly what you're describing and being so grateful, like, thinking, like, thank God she's here. Yeah, she is totally in charge. And I'm like, I'll do. Just tell me what to do. Yeah, I'll do it poorly. Let's go.

[Donald Miller]

And I think that also speaks to how good of a human being you are. That's not the experience that I had. The experience I have was like, okay.

[Dave Barnes]

Well, you can cut that.

[Donald Miller]

Suck at this.

[Unknown]

Don't misunderstand. I think we would still resonate with that. Well, and, you know, too, I think, to that point, I think something that is. That is okay. And I think this is something you have to hold intention with wanting to be a dad and contribute in the ways a dad contributes to a family is that, you know, for a lot of families like ours, like Annie Runs our house. Like, she runs the house. She should run the house. She wants to run the house. Like, so there's not a competition of me coming in and going. Everything in my purview is my domain. My house is my domain. My. It's. That's a fool's errand. Plus, she's just better at it. She's more equipped to do it. She knows things. I don't know. I mean, to John's point, not just factually, but maternally. She knows things. And so I think, too, there's a space you have to hold while wanting to care for. Be a good dad is also realizing, like, hey, the way I serve here is just to serve. And I'll tell you, I have a whole TED Talk on this dilemma with men, which is, I think one of the reason that we can work so much, if I dare say it, or stay at the office so much, is because when we come home, we are servants. We're not. We're not.

[Donald Miller]

Well, you migrate toward the areas in.

[Unknown]

Which you are competent, and I think for a man.

[Donald Miller]

And there has to be. This is the thing that happened during that season. It was probably about a year in of me just kind of being the assistant. Not even like the assistant who's involved in decision making, just the assistant.

[Dave Barnes]

Right.

[Unknown]

It's handed to you.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. We don't need you to understand why this matters.

[Dave Barnes]

Just do it.

[Donald Miller]

And I'm not exactly. I don't think you know your place, Mr. Miller. And I just. I made a decision. Look, this is not. Yeah. This is not going to happen. This is that I am going to be important and, you know, in this ecosystem, while doing exactly what you said, being the servant. Because you're not going to compete. Give me a break. And I remember interviewing Pete Carroll years ago, and he was Seattle Seahawks coach, and we talked about this a little bit in the interview, and he said, my wife runs the empire.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

He goes, I fund it. My wife runs it. And he also said something really interesting. I said, when you partner with your wife and blah, blah, blah. And he stopped and he goes, my wife and I do not partner. He goes, we're one. I was like, dude, she's a lucky woman.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

But that feels very true that the business area is my domain. This is where I'm running this thing. And the home is sort of hers, and she runs it unbelievably well. And it's kind of an honor to serve in that environment. But what I had to do is actually break it down and, okay, what can I do that. What are the rules for me as a dad? That one, make sure I don't mess this thing up. And two, sort of serves the ecosystem. And those things were a vision. Like, I actually had to sit down and say, here's the vision for our family. Because Betsy even said this. She said, women think about family from the time they're babies. I mean, my three and a half year old already pretends to be a mom and changes a diaper for a little thing. And guys don't tend to think about it. But she said, what's amazing is very few women actually have a vision for their family. They just know how to do it. And so for me to say, well, here's what we're gonna do. Our home is gonna be a place of hospitality. We're gonna get away for a couple weeks every year. Weekends belong to the family. Even though we run a bed and breakfast, essentially, weekends belong to the family. I'm home by 5 o' clock. Dad never raises his voice, period. You are not allowed to raise your voice in this house. As soon as I set down some rules, which were really kind of silly, to be honest with you. Just like, just be a good person is all it really was. But at the same time, all of a sudden, I felt like, okay, yes, I am the assistant, but an extremely important one. And that helped a lot. It helped a lot for me to feel like I'm contributing.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And I don't think it's about, like. I think there are places for a dad in that ecosystem that are still hugely important. I think it can't be misconstrued that, like, mom runs the empire is like, you know, when any of us come home, it's. It's just to be a Sherpa, a kid Sherpa or whatever, which is a big part of it. You know, we still play this hugely important role. I think it's just in that setting, knowing, hey, she's. I mean, in fact, I was terrified when y' all sent this copy over about, like, what's the one phrase your kids would think? I was terrified to ask them because I knew what they were going to say. It's like, I don't know. Ask Mom. You know, because I'm like, some of the. And my kids will sort of roll their eyes when I'm like, hey, kids, mom is calling the shots on this stuff. Now. Certain stuff I will. But when it comes to, like, logistics or if we can do that with this thing, I don't know, because Mom's looking at the calendar closer than I am for the day now. But if we want to talk about other things, like, you know, I can answer that question or I can tell you what, you know, whatever. But I think it's realizing. And again, I just think to give dads who are listening a lot of grace but encouragement and maybe a little nudge. That thing that is so hard for you is hard for all of us, which is you go from the kingdom that you run, which is your career, and you have control over Snicker. Snicker. You come into a space where you're not that anymore. And it's supposed to be humbling, it's supposed to be hard. And that's okay because I think a lot of men laughing with a really good friend of mine, this. A couple years ago, I was like, why do you think you work so late? And he's like, well, if we're being honest, it's hard to go home. I was like, that's okay. It's okay to say that it is like, because you're no longer, look, you know, my company and my thing and my music, whatever. And all of a sudden somebody's like, hey, can you grab this? Move that. Can you take them? And I think you have to have this posture of like, hey, I'm just here to help. And I laughed so hard. A friend of mine had just had his third kid last year. He called me and I was like, how's it going? He's like, man, this year has just about killed me because it's the first year where I'm not really getting to do what I want to do anymore. And I see that that's different for every dad. Like, some dad, it takes one kid and they die that death. Some it's three. But I remember so acutely the moment that I was like, oh, yeah, I'm just. I'm just here to help. Like, so those. I'm going to go run off. Hey, can I do that? It's like, no, that's not what I do anymore. And I literally come home and when I walk in and go, hey, what are we doing? What can I do? Where am I taking the kids? She's like, all right, you got it. And I'm like, great. It's no longer like, well, I was wanting to get a run in at 3 or like, can I just pop? Like, for. For now in my family, that's not what I do anymore. I'm just there to help. And it's crazy to hear myself, as selfish as I am, say to Annie, like, tell me, what am I doing today? What am I doing this afternoon? She'll be like, all right, this, this is something, right? Cool.

[Kyle Reed]

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[Donald Miller]

Let's get back to just like core messages. I'm curious as to, you know, words create worlds. The words that you say build the future. Everything that we see that exists was built. Even if you go back to like the Bible, right. It was spoken into existence, which I think is, is metaphorically true about all of us. We speak things into existence and we speak self esteem into our wives and into our daughters and our sons, these sorts of things. I'm curious in all your interviews and just practically, what are the things that you guys, the messages that you guys keep coming back to as dads that build health and positivity in your homes.

[Dave Barnes]

Right now, lately, I would say I'm. My girls are 12 and almost 10. I'm learning that the way that I communicate with our girls is slightly different than what I thought it was going to be like coming into being a dad. I've thought there will be these moments where they'll look a myriad of different ways, but there'll be these moments where X and Y will happen and then the family will look to me and I will. And I don't feel like, you know, we don't have to go down this rabbit trail. Maybe it's just semantics. I don't feel like I'm the leader of the house. This is just Amy and I don't view it that way, but I think like there will be these moments where my kids will look to me, I will say something.

[Unknown]

With your shirt off.

[Dave Barnes]

The shirt will be off.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Dave Barnes]

And I'll say something. And those are the moments where I need to Nail it. Like those are the times, like I need to get myself, you know, all wisdomed up so that I can pass on this wisdom.

[Unknown]

Hashtag wisdom.

[Dave Barnes]

Ironic that I would say it in that way too. And I, I have realized I'm in a season where I'm realizing, like what I'm communicating, how I'm communicating to my daughters is not through what I'm saying every now and then. Maybe they will, they will hold on to something that I say and I think I need to say less. You know, like once you're on your fifth sentence, they're not listening anymore. That's, you know, you needed to stop four sentences ago.

[Unknown]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Barnes]

But they're watching how I am treating my wife. They're watching how what my relationship is with work and all that kind of stuff. They're watching my daily behavior. And every now and then they will say something like my 9 year old will say something about Amy and my relationship or another couple's relationship that we see regularly. They will make these such astute observations of things that we have never directly communicated to them. And they're. And they're right on it. And so I've been realizing, you know, not only just what do I want to communicate, but just how it's getting through to them is not exactly how I thought it was going to be.

[Unknown]

It's that which John and I hear a lot. It's that caught, not taught idea, you know, like how much of their life. I'll tell you one thing, John and I, I'll say for me that John and I talk a lot about on Dabville, and it's probably one of the most poignant things that I keep coming back to is this idea. And I'm pretty sure Stephen James said this, who's a very wise person, but Stephen said you can only take your kids as far as you've gone yourself on sort of like your own work and stuff, which that I don't love the language of that sometimes, like, what's your work? How's your work? I'm working on me. That's all good, whatever. But I do think that's really true. And I think when I see hiccups that I've had or I've seen friends with their parents or, you know, whatever, so much of it is because a kid is speaking a language the parent is not well versed in and it's in the disconnect is, is the kid goes, hey, I've noticed this thing about you and it's hard. And the parent goes, I don't do that. And then it's like that conversation's over because they do do it and they don't know they do it. And so I think what's so important for. And me and John really talk about this a lot, just off camera or whatever in our relationship with our kids. It's like we just really want to be able. My. One of my goals as a parent because my kids are going to have problems with me, and hopefully they'll come to me about those things. Is it when they say, hey, you know, you. You didn't pay a lot of attention all the time, or you were a little checked out at moments. For me to say, I know that. I know. Thank you for saying that. Like, that's in my locker. That is something I struggle with. And I'm sorry you had to deal with that. And not like, who are. You don't know me, or like, disrespectful, you know, kid. Like, I don't do that. I'm like super dad. But instead to have the work done, you can go like, yeah, I have this stuff like that I really struggle with. And obviously you were front row to that.

[Donald Miller]

I noticed that years and years ago. I think I wrote about it in a book. But there were some. There were some adult kids, you know, kids of men that I knew who'd become adults who were just exceptionally more healthy than most other human beings. Paul Young's kids, we know Paul wrote the Shack and a guy named John McMurray, whose kids are actually coming to stay at the guest house here pretty soon. The family that I lived with, John was sort of a theologian that I lived with for a while. And I just noticed that as their kids grew up, they were just freaking healthy. And I actually did a little deep dive into it and talked to Paul and talked to John was like, what is it? Because I lived with John, he just seemed like a normal dude. And if you know Paul, he's kind of a normal guy. And both of them had done something really interesting. And it's anecdotal, but I attribute the health of their children to this. In terms of a message that you deliver to your kids. They both had sat their children down in one on one situations intentionally to have a conversation in which they apologized. But the ways that they knew they had messed their kids up, things like, I want you to understand, you get your temper from me. I want you to understand that because your mother and I had a tough few years, you grew up with some instability and insecurity. There in terms of whether or not you were safe. And this is where I saw it. I'm wanting to know how that has affected you. And those. That conversation, I mean, I actually talked to their kids about it and how was that? And they would say that looking back, it was sort of a moment when they were set free from being entrapped by that. And it was also that flaw in them was not completely their fault. So the shame of that flaw also went away.

[Unknown]

The burden of it, the carrying of it.

[Donald Miller]

That's right. And also imagine the security when the being that provides your food and shelter is wanting to connect more than wanting to be right. And the amount of security that you would get from that, the ego that goes away in that situation. I would say one of the messages that I think all of us need to consider is the message, I'm sorry, oh my gosh. And even be formulating it and figuring out, you know, I knew when my daughter was born, before she came into the world, I already knew one of them, one of the I'm sorrys. And it's, I'm sorry for daydreaming and being in my own mind when we were together, because it probably made you feel like you weren't important and you weren't interesting. And as your father, I made you feel that way a thousand times. I want to apologize. It's just that I have a ferocious imagination and I like, you know, I'm a writer. I go into these situations. It wasn't you. And I remember at about two and a half years old, my daughter and I would sit there and I would say, em, you know, and I realized she's actually lost in daydreaming. And I'm like, I'm off the hook.

[Unknown]

She's like me.

[Donald Miller]

She's like me. But that, all joking aside, that's a conversation we will have to have. And I hope that she realizes at that point, oh, I'm not uninteresting. And also, I deserved better, according to my.

[Unknown]

Well, you know, there's. There's two things I think about. One is, can you imagine a more secure feeling in a kid than to know that their caregiver is self aware?

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So I'm not bringing you surprises about yourself because if I know things about you, you don't. I'm not safe. That means like we're vulnerable in some way or you're vulnerable in ways that don't make me feel safe. So I need to know, like, you know these things. And if I can say I know those things, they're like, oh, thank you. Well, it takes a burden off.

[Dave Barnes]

And you also want your kids to trust their intuition and their intuition is on.

[Unknown]

I mean, they know there's nobody that is more front row in your life.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Dave Barnes]

So if you're constantly dismissing some of their accusations and they're like, oh, maybe I'm not. Maybe that intuition isn't right.

[Unknown]

And I think too, which again, John and I hear a lot on the podcast that I think we both do. And me and Annie, really, it is, it is. Top three important things to Annie and I in our parenting is to apologize, like consistently to each other and. Well, and to the kids. Because I think, man, if you, if you really want to have some fascinating conversations with your friends, like your age is like, ask them if their parents ever apologized and that. And, and I'm not blaming that generation at all. They've had their own things that were handed out from the greatest generation, which was great. But whatever. I digress. But you know, it's just not, it's not a very common thing. And I think to, to be able. Which we started with our kids because we mess up a lot. You know, we've had to grab them and say, like, hey, buddy, like, I, I'm so sorry I raised my voice earlier today. Yeah. And do you forgive me? And have them say, I forgive you because it's like, this needs to be a pattern in our relationship because I'm going to let you down. But what makes them feel secure and the great ironic, beautiful thing is they see that you're aware and so they go, oh, then you know, you did that. Which they thank God in the ages we are. They still forgive us. And there's no kind, you know, it's going to end. I think they, I don't either.

[Donald Miller]

I don't know.

[John McLaughlin]

And I can underscore that with kind of growing up, you know, my dad was always the big, we're going to pull the family together and talk about problems.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[John McLaughlin]

The one thing he never did was own his own problems. And there's strain in our relationship even today. Is. That's a big one.

[Unknown]

Yeah. It's tough.

[John McLaughlin]

Is, is that side. And I learned that I moved to defensiveness really quick because I can find all the reasons why I did the thing I did or I'm justified in it, but that importance of owning it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[John McLaughlin]

And then the importance of your kid knowing. So I have a 7 year old daughter and she's just like me and I can see myself in her.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[John McLaughlin]

And so I drive her to school Every day. And so we talk about, hey, remember when, like, I grabbed the wrong shoes and you kind of had a little freak out? I remember that. I remember being like, we've been talking about that and dialoguing and a funny story. Was she. Well, it's funny to me. I tried to, like, have a little code word with her of, like, when you're kind of losing it. Like, this helped me, you know. And so she's like, okay, we'll do that. And then later that night, it was bath time. I was like, all right, come on. You know, she's, you know, freaking out. And I said the word. And she goes, dad, I don't want to play that game. I'm not going to play that game anymore. I hate this game. And so I just laughed. No, but, you know, one of the things I. I just. As you guys are talking and everybody here has different stages their kids are at or in life or growing up. What would you guys say would be one of the most important messages you want your kids to hear or know from you?

[Dave Barnes]

Yeah, I mean, it. It's so cliche. For a while, for, you know, we're on 200 something episodes for, I don't know how many. 150 episodes or whatever, we would end our podcast with the same couple questions. And one of them is, what's the one thing you want your kids to know? And I mean, if we did 150 episodes of that, 148 of those was just that I love you no matter what, unconditionally. So it's, you know, and it was kind of beautiful that we. That. That was so consistent through all the, you know, array of people that we have interviewed with different backgrounds and beliefs and all that kind of stuff, that this is like, one of the most unifying elements of life on planet Earth is with our children. That's the message. There is nothing that my daughters could do where they would affect my love. That's the one top thing I want.

[Unknown]

I disagree. There's a lot of things Dave has never. Strong lines around things that matter to me. No, I agree. And I think. I think. I think it's a little. It's a little bit of a lot of things. It's like what John said is absolutely true. It's also that, like, I am fallible, you know, that, like, there's always a bridge to me through vulnerability that I. That I try to build, you know, just to. Yeah. Just to lead in a way that's like. I heard a quote 1. It's most transformative quotes I've heard in my life. Whenever we come together sharing our strengths, it breeds competition. Whenever we come together sharing our weaknesses, it breeds community. And, and I see that and I want them, and I want to lead that way. I want them to know, like, hey, nothing's off the table. Like, accuse me as much as you need to. And I know that gets harder as you get older because. And I've already felt this, gosh, my 13 year old son, like, respect is starting to really matter to me with him, which is funny. And that's a new thing for me because, you know, I'm like, whoa. Well, it's interesting as these things are changing in my spirit where I'm like. And it matters that he respects me and his friends respect me. And, you know, which is kind of a new thing. And so I can see now how, you know, when my dad and I've had some hard conversations where I'm like, man, he's really getting bristled. I'm like, oh, I get now why he gets. Because it's like, you know, that's like a currency to man. It's like, and you got your kid kind of squaring up and it's like, oh, you want to roll with the old man? Let's do it. You know, but just to know that hopefully as I navigate that too, that there will be this humility and knowing, like, hey, I'm very capable of very terrible, mean things. And to know that, that's always a conversation that we can have. You know, to John's point, it's just basically another way of saying the same thing, which is like, there's nothing. Your relationship is penultimate to me. And that's what I'll always fight for. No matter what those. What it looks like, the communication looks.

[Donald Miller]

Like, you know, there's three of us here who are girl dads and you have a son.

[Unknown]

I've got a girl too, in the middle.

[Donald Miller]

You have one son?

[Unknown]

Yeah. Boy. Girl. Boy.

[Donald Miller]

Gotcha. Okay. I'm curious as to how important it is to you guys. I say every day to my daughter that you are beautiful and her nickname is Beauty. You know, first thing in the morning, like, you're beautiful. And I'll also ask her who's beautiful? And she'll go, emmeline is beautiful. And I kind of loosely do that because I don't want her looking for that message in the wrong places. Older, I don't. You know, I'm also worried that she's going to go off to college and realize that she's not the princess of a small country. And that people do not actually have to serve her or worship her in any way. That's not obligated. So I'm a little worried that we're heading that direction and we'll figure out how to manage that later. But I'm wondering, did you guys ever realize that just the. I mean, you know, a woman's sort of a woman is beautiful and she's a gift. And I think I almost feel like a woman sensing that she's being adored is like food. I mean, it's. I don't want to say expected in an entitled sense, but it's sort of like a man deserves to be respected, a woman deserves to be adored. And if she doesn't get that from you, she's probably going to try to get it in some way. That's not healthy. Did you guys ever have that kind of epiphany and begin to communicate that girls.

[John McLaughlin]

Yeah, that's a great question. It's a weird one because I grew up in a way where that kind of talk wasn't expressed that way, that wasn't a verbalized thing. And I think where I can get trapped in my head is it feels cliche.

[Donald Miller]

Ish.

[John McLaughlin]

So I. Then I take it off as well. It's not that important. One of the things my wife has reminded me of often is, yeah, I want to feel pursued and. And adored by you. And I need to hear that.

[Donald Miller]

Can't read your mind?

[John McLaughlin]

No. And the way I grew up was. I never heard my dad say that much. It was weird. And so having girls to your point of thinking about. Oh, same thing. I want them to know, no matter what anyone says, you're a beautiful girl. Who cares what you look like. You're a beautiful human. We're not going to judge by those standards. And it's a weird muscle. I'm exercising because it's not natural to me to say that. It's not natural for me to. Because I don't know, I just feel I'm very personal. Like if I don't. It's not that I don't mean it, but it's like it just feels kind of. I'm going through the motions here. I'm just saying the thing you want me to hear. And so really the work I have to do internally is to actually believe it. Does that make sense? Kind of do that wrestling of like, regardless of in the moment, if I'm frustrated with my wife or something like that is to still remind myself that's My wife. Yeah, that. That's my wife. That's my daughter's. Yeah. And that's part of my job as a husband and a dad. Communicates that.

[Donald Miller]

It's part of the provision. Mandate, I think. And, you know, providing for a family. I think the financial part is the. The easiest part, and it's actually the emotional provision that is the challenge. Things are cliche because they're fundamental, and you got to nail the fundamentals. I'm hoping. I grew up in a home. My mother said I love you to me for the first time when I was 21 years old.

[Kyle Reed]

Holy cow.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And her mother was insanely tough. I mean, a very, very tough one. I remember at my grandmother's funeral, she died at 96. The pastor of her church came over to our table at a potluck after the. After the service and said, well, your mother wasn't a very kind woman. And our whole table was just.

[Unknown]

When the pastor says that, you're like, whoa.

[Donald Miller]

And our whole table was like, that's a very diplomatic way of saying that we appreciate your. Because she just wasn't.

[Unknown]

But I just want to say I respect the potluck at the funeral. That's a.

[Donald Miller]

It's very Southern.

[Unknown]

I love that.

[Donald Miller]

I grew up in Texas.

[Unknown]

That's amazing.

[Donald Miller]

But my grandmother also. I wrote a book called Prayer in the Art of Volkswagen Maintenance. I never told anybody in my family that I'd written the book until it was published. I just showed up on Christmas and had these books, and they were just like, who. Why are you. Why'd you steal this man's book and put your name on it?

[Unknown]

There's another Don Miller out there.

[Donald Miller]

That's the attitude of my family. My grandmother had that book sandwiched between the cushion in her chair, and it had been read 500 times. It was ripped to shreds. She never acknowledged it, never said, proud of you. It's just. It's a generation that had to go through a lot, and, I mean, you had to be tough to survive, you know? And my mom kind of learned from that. And by the way, she said, I love you when I was 21, after I said it, wow. I said, mom, you know, I love you. And she goes, I love you, too. And I remember thinking, wow, I wasn't expecting that. And at the same time, one of the most gracious, tough human beings you can imagine. I just. I wouldn't take from what my mother gave me in terms of toughness and resilience. I would say, no, you could leave the love out that was actually more important.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Donald Miller]

I needed that. I needed the dad side to be in her as well. So that is not a knock on my amazing mother. But you know, I'm wondering about the generation that we are raising and my prediction actually is they're going to be incredibly healthy. And I think the reason is the stats all show that men are just taking a much, much more involved approach in their family. And I think part of that is, it's part of the provision mandate. You just, you can't see this as just financial that you bring a, you bring an emotional stability and a foundation to this family. That I think is incredibly important. My mother in law was a saint. She passed away a couple of years ago, year and a half ago. And one of the things that she said to me, she didn't say it in a moment of rebuke, she said it in a. Maybe because she just understood my personality. But before Emmaline was born she said, don, I want you to know something. She's not a problem to fix, she's a relationship to build.

[Unknown]

Wow, that's good, man.

[Donald Miller]

It just never left me. I'm like, I'm not going to fix this kid, you know what I mean? But I can always build this relationship. And I think it took a year for me to actually believe in the vision that my daughter would like me. When you grow up and you've been bullied or whatever, it's very hard for you to believe that people are and. But about a year and I'm just kind of like, how could she not? I tell her that she's beautiful every day, you know, she gets a popsicle and mom's not looking. There's all sorts of great stuff here.

[John McLaughlin]

Pushing strollers up.

[Unknown]

Can I, can I say one more thing? And it actually has to do with your book, the storyline book back in the day, which I loved and I think I bought 15 from you at one point. But one of the things that book did that Al Andrews also challenged me when we met the first time was this idea that like what's the theme of your childhood? Like he would ask. And this is a really consistent thing in therapy where it's like there was one thing you heard over and over. What was that thing? And it's a really interesting. For anybody that's listening or watching, it's an interesting exercise. One just to kind of spend some time around what that thing was. And it can be great. I think probably more it's not great because it tends that we tend to remember those things a Little better than the great things. But it could be something your mom always said. Your dad always said, whatever. But where I'm going with that is I do think it's worth. And you all posed this question when you sent this to us earlier. But what is the thing you find yourself saying? And it's a fun game to play with your kids to go like, hey, because they're going to take sort of a messaging away from your parenting. And I think it's really good to try to have some discipline around thinking about what you tend to say a lot. Because there's going to be someday if your kids. And counseling. And I hope everybody. All my kids go to counseling, Lord knows, is, you know, they may go like, hey, what was something that your dad said? A lot. And it's. And because we still have a chance now with our kids ages to really be mindful of that and to watch that. And so it was interesting asking my kids what that was. And I don't know if it's good or bad. They were like, I don't really know. And I was kind of like, actually, that's gonna play. Well, that's gonna play for now. We'll take that. Because I was scared it's gonna be like, no, or, I don't know, ask your mom. Or like, could y' all leave me.

[Donald Miller]

Alone or would you mind changing your channel? Can you hand me the remote and.

[Dave Barnes]

Give me a beer?

[Unknown]

But, you know, to your point, I think there's something really powerful.

[Donald Miller]

The other day, my daughter literally said to me, and you guys will identify with this. She said to me, dad, focus and finish. No, when we're trying to get the shoes on. When we're trying, I'm like, hey, you know, she's like, the underwear is half on. She's already lost track of what we're trying m. Focus and finish.

[Dave Barnes]

And she can say it because you.

[Donald Miller]

Guys are the same.

[John McLaughlin]

Yeah, it's the same person.

[Unknown]

I love that song. Focus and finish. That's right, babe. Okay, there we go.

[Donald Miller]

It's great messages that we deliver as a dad. I want to thank both of you guys for being out there and leading. Not just this conversation, but leading as an inspiration to all of us.

[John McLaughlin]

Guys, thanks so much for joining us.

[Unknown]

Yeah, thanks for.

[Dave Barnes]

It's an honor.

[John McLaughlin]

Yeah. You can hear Dave and John's wisdom on Dadville. Also, you guys have put out some new music projects as well. Look on Good place. Just Spotify or go to your website.

[Donald Miller]

Both very, very entertaining on Instagram.

[Unknown]

What's your Instagram handles John McLaughlin and Dave Barnes Music.

[John McLaughlin]

We'll have those in the show description. You go check those out.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[John McLaughlin]

Thanks for joining us, guys.

[Unknown]

Yeah, thanks for having us.

[Dave Barnes]

Thank you, guys.

[Kyle Reed]

Thanks for listening to the why that Worked podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you like the show, follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're Enjoying this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and leave a comment letting us know what you think and what you want the guys to talk about in a future episode. Curious about how StoryBrand AI can help you create clear, effective messaging? Well, you can try it out right now and create a free customized tagline for your business. Just go to storybrand AI. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.