#3: Thought Leaders—How Innovative Thinkers Build a Following and Shape Modern Culture

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode #3 – Thought Leaders—How Innovative Thinkers Build a Following and Shape Modern Culture

Presented by StoryBrand.ai

Hosts: Donald Miller and Kyle Reed
Guest: Chris Williamson
Release Date: January 20, 2025
Duration: Approximately 24 minutes

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Introduction

In Episode #3 of Why That Worked, hosted by Donald Miller and Kyle Reed, the discussion delves into the concept of thought leaders—individuals who drive innovation, build substantial followings, and significantly influence modern culture. Co-hosted by Chris Williamson from the Modern Wisdom podcast, the episode seeks to dissect what truly constitutes a thought leader, differentiate them from curators, and explore the mechanisms that enable them to shape societal paradigms.

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Defining Thought Leaders vs. Curators

Donald Miller (00:25):
"Have you ever wondered why some brands, trends, or products become massive successes while others fade away?"

The conversation begins with a fundamental question: What is a thought leader? Donald Miller posits that while the term "thought leader" has become ubiquitous, its true definition often blurs, especially in the digital age where anyone can broadcast their ideas.

Chris Williamson (02:01):
"What is a thought leader? Yeah, you know what, What. How does that work?"

Both hosts acknowledge the challenge in pinning down a precise definition. Donald Miller differentiates between leaders and thought leaders, emphasizing that while leadership is abundant, genuine thought leadership was historically rare but has proliferated with the advent of diverse media platforms.

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Characteristics of Thought Leaders

Original Thought and Worldview:
Donald emphasizes that true thought leaders originate unique worldviews or innovative ideas that challenge existing paradigms. They are not merely aggregators of information but creators of new narratives.

Chris Williamson (04:15):
"He's bringing thought leaders into a room to discuss. But you're right, and he's not a dumb dude. He's actually brilliant."

This distinction is crucial as it separates thought leaders from curators. While curators like Chris Williamson of Modern Wisdom bring together various thinkers and ideas, they do not necessarily introduce original concepts themselves.

Simplification and Guidance:
Donald outlines four primary reasons people gravitate toward thought leaders:

1. Desire for Innovation: Seeking the latest ideas and strategies.
2. Guidance: Acting as a mentor or guide in personal or professional growth.
3. Simplicity: Breaking down complex concepts into understandable terms.
4. Confirmation Bias and Tribe Building: Aligning with leaders who reinforce existing beliefs and foster a sense of community.

Donald Miller (05:19):
"We are designed for survival, which means two things. One, we want to identify threats, and two, we want to join a tribe that will defend us from those threats."

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Notable Examples of Thought Leaders

Gary Vaynerchuk (Gary Vee):
Considered an early thought leader by both hosts, Gary Vee exemplifies originality by blending a blue-collar perspective with white-collar industries, offering unorthodox insights that resonate widely.

Elon Musk:
Donald categorizes Elon Musk as a thought leader, particularly in his innovative approaches to running large organizations and pushing the boundaries of technology and space exploration.

Sigmund Freud vs. Carl Jung:
Donald contrasts Freud as a thought leader with Jung as a curator, highlighting Freud's role in originating theories that profoundly impacted psychology.

Donald Miller (13:08):
"Karl Marx had a view of the world. Dr. Atkins had a view of the human body... Rush Limbaugh had a view of American politics."

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Steps to Becoming a Thought Leader

Donald Miller outlines a strategic three-part approach for aspiring thought leaders:

1. Define a Villain: Identify a prevailing issue or paradigm that needs challenging.
2. Cast a Vision: Articulate a compelling alternative that addresses the villain.
3. Establish Values: Define the core principles that will drive the realization of the vision.

Donald Miller (18:34):
"If you wanted to become a thought leader, here's step one. It's a three-part step and you need to define a villain, cast a vision that defeats that villain or usurps that paradigm in culture, and then actually define the values that will make that vision happen."

Consistency and Expertise:
Beyond outlining these steps, Donald emphasizes the importance of establishing expertise, creating original content, and committing to long-term engagement with the chosen field.

Chris Williamson (18:27):
"We've kind of defined what a thought leader is, hopefully... how to curate those thoughts and how do you grab that and then teach that."

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The Impact of Thought Leaders on Culture

Tribe Building and Confirmation Bias:
Thought leaders not only disseminate ideas but also cultivate communities that reinforce specific worldviews. This tribalism can lead to significant cultural shifts but also risks fostering echo chambers.

Donald Miller (08:40):
"You could actually take yourself out of your current environment and put yourself in a different environment. And about three years later, you probably would believe what that group believes at least a lot more than you used to."

Cultural Hijacking:
While thought leaders can drive positive change, they also possess the power to manipulate cultural narratives for detrimental purposes. This duality underscores the ethical responsibilities inherent in thought leadership.

Donald Miller (23:27):
"A thought leader can actually hijack a whole culture to do really evil things."

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Potential Pitfalls and Ethical Considerations

Authenticity vs. Curation:
One major pitfall is the conflation of thought leadership with mere curation of existing ideas. Authentic thought leaders bring original insights, whereas curators risk diluting meaningful impact by merely aggregating others' thoughts.

Risk of Becoming a 'Fake':
Aspiring thought leaders must avoid the trap of presenting themselves as experts without genuine expertise or a clear vision. Authenticity and a solid foundation of knowledge are paramount.

Donald Miller (22:23):
"The mistakes that you can make are one, you're not an expert, you're a fake. Right. You're just curating information, repeating other people's ideas and trying to sound smart."

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the enduring human need for guidance and innovation, positioning thought leaders as crucial figures in fulfilling these roles. Donald Miller urges individuals with genuine, impactful ideas to embrace thought leadership responsibly, emphasizing the potential for positive influence while cautioning against misuse.

Donald Miller (23:32):
"Because every hero needs a guide. It's a human need to have somebody else telling us how to do it, why to do it, when and where to do it."

Chris Williamson (23:46):
"We've kind of defined what a thought leader is... We've kind of defined a thought leader."

The hosts wrap up by highlighting the importance of clear communication and authentic value in establishing oneself as a thought leader, encouraging listeners to thoughtfully engage with the concepts discussed.

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Notable Quotes

• Donald Miller (00:25):
  "Have you ever wondered why some brands, trends, or products become massive successes while others fade away?"

• Donald Miller (05:19):
  "We are designed for survival, which means two things. One, we want to identify threats, and two, we want to join a tribe that will defend us from those threats."

• Donald Miller (18:34):
  "It's a three-part step and you need to define a villain, cast a vision that defeats that villain or usurps that paradigm in culture, and then actually define the values that will make that vision happen."

• Donald Miller (23:27):
  "A thought leader can actually hijack a whole culture to do really evil things."

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Key Takeaways

1. Thought Leaders vs. Curators: Thought leaders originate unique ideas and worldviews, while curators aggregate and disseminate existing thoughts.
2. Core Characteristics: Innovation, guidance, simplification of complex ideas, and tribe building are central to effective thought leadership.
3. Becoming a Thought Leader: Involves defining a clear vision, establishing expertise, creating original content, and maintaining long-term commitment.
4. Cultural Impact: Thought leaders significantly influence societal norms and beliefs but wield this power responsibly to avoid negative consequences.
5. Ethical Responsibility: Authenticity and a genuine desire to contribute positively are essential to sustainable and ethical thought leadership.

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Listeners interested in mastering clear and effective messaging for their businesses are encouraged to explore StoryBrand.ai, which offers tools to craft compelling narratives and communication strategies.

Transcript

[Donald Miller]

Foreign.

[Kyle Reed]

You're listening to the why that Work podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you've ever wondered why certain brands, trends, or cultural phenomena find success while others don't, you're in the right place. Every week, we unpack why something worked, then give you actionable insights that you can use in your own life. Now let's dive in with your hosts, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed.

[Donald Miller]

Kyle, who. Who are you listening to right now in terms of thought leaders? Before you even define what a thought leader is, who. Who's got your attention?

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, a couple guys I like a lot. Chris Williamson from Modern Wisdom.

[Donald Miller]

Love Chris Williamson.

[Chris Williamson]

Love his podcast.

[Donald Miller]

I would contend later in this episode that he's not a thought leader. Okay, he's something else, extremely valuable to society. But I would contend he's not a thought leader.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, I love his podcast, Hermosi. I like a lot. I just like the way he thinks Alex is brilliant. Yeah, yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And he actually, before he got mega famous, we zoomed one.

[Chris Williamson]

Really? Yeah. Did he have his.

[Donald Miller]

All of it.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

I mean, it's not a shtick. And he was just unbelievably generous and kind.

[Chris Williamson]

I guess when you ask me who, it's really a subset of people who. They think differently, and then they're willing to share why they do something. Those are the people I listen to.

[Donald Miller]

They think differently and they share why and probably how a little bit.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. Yeah. I like people who don't give just traditional, do X, Y and Z. Instead, they go, here's why I'm doing what I'm doing. Here's why I think about things.

[Donald Miller]

Did you find that it was kind of difficult to actually define in your mind in order to research this episode what a thought leader even is?

[Chris Williamson]

Not until I started thinking about it, because I think everybody, maybe I don't want to make an assumption here, but people listening to this or watching this might automatically when they hear word thought leader, it pops in their head, you know, who that person is. But when you really start to think about, well, what does make a thought leader or are they really a thought leader? Then I start to go, you know, I sort of ask myself, what is a thought leader? Yeah, you know what, What. How does that work?

[Donald Miller]

What's interesting about the idea of thought leaders is it's. It's exploded. Used to, there were two or three, maybe four thought leaders. Now we're not talking about leaders. There's a difference between leaders and thought leaders. There's thousands of leaders, and now there are thousands of thought leaders. But back in the day, there weren't that many thought leaders.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. And it was. Do you think it was my premise on that is media was just controlled far more so there was not outlets.

[Donald Miller]

There weren't as many outlets.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

And somebody who was really brilliant and had a worldview and had ideas to share, didn't have a way to share them, and now they actually do. And so you're seeing, you know, you're seeing brilliance kind of people just turn on their camera and they share their thoughts. And now we kind of divide up into these followers of this thought leader and this other thought leader.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. One of my, the earliest thought leaders for me was Gary Vee. Gary Vee has always been someone for.

[Donald Miller]

Me who I would say he's a thought leader.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. Who I've always, even back, you know, 15 years ago, just consumed everything he said.

[Donald Miller]

What about you? Why was that, though? What was it about Gary Veal? First of all, he was dropping the F bomb and nobody was dropping the F bomb in professional settings.

[Chris Williamson]

It's to my premise of he's a guy who wasn't giving traditional answers. He was practicing.

[Donald Miller]

He had a blue collar perspective on a white collar industry.

[Chris Williamson]

That's right. He brought down the veil. He showed you behind the scenes. He was a practitioner.

[Donald Miller]

There was also just for entertainment value, there was contrast. He was talking about wine like a truck driver.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Donald Miller]

So there was entertainment value to him too, actually. Let's go back to Chris Williamson, Modern Wisdom. By the way, if you're not subscribing to that podcast, it's a great podcast. He curates some of the great minds and he asks great questions and he gives great feedback and all that kind of stuff. I wouldn't call him a thought leader because I don't know that. He may have a worldview, but he doesn't exist to espouse that worldview.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

He's a curator of information, but not an originator necessarily of information. So I don't mean that to dismiss him because I listen to him all the time.

[Chris Williamson]

It's a good thought.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. But I think that's the difference when we're trying to define what a thought leader is. There's a difference.

[Chris Williamson]

He's almost a curator of thought leaders. He's bringing thought leaders into a room to discuss. But you're right.

[Donald Miller]

And he's not a dumb dude. He's actually brilliant. When you hear him pontificate and throw the ball back and forth, he can throw it back and forth with a bunch of different Thought leaders.

[Chris Williamson]

What about you? Who's some thought leaders you enjoy?

[Donald Miller]

Well, when I think about, like, I mean, the thought leaders that I'm listening to right now are Peter Attia on longevity, Andrew Huberman, you know, those are the guys. Because I'm 53 and I really want to live to be 85 or 90. And so I'm listening to those. So specifically, you know, I try to think, why are we drawn to thought leaders? And I came up with four reasons. The desire for innovation. We want what's new, we want what's current, and whatever the newest trick or thing is that's going to help us accomplish X, whether it's cooking or relationships or business or health or parenting. Dr. Becky we want that. That's part of it. Then we want guidance. And this goes into the stuff I get into building a story brand. The idea that every human being identifies as a hero in a story, and every hero in a story, he needs a guide who has been before us, conquered our trouble, and gotten us out of it. So if we gotten themselves out of it, now know how to get us out of it. So as heroes, we are looking for guides. Therefore, thought leaders position themselves as guides just naturally, intuitively, and we choose them. Another one. And this may be the. This is the second biggest reason. I'll get to the first biggest reason next. Simplicity. We want somebody to simplify a complex idea and we don't have time to research it and do it ourselves. Yeah, yeah, we're not. I'm not going to sit there and figure out, you know, atoms and cells in my body and, you know, deteriorating, whatever over time. Peter T. Is going to do that for me. And so it simplifies ideas. And this is the number one. This is going to get really contentious here. Confirmation bias and tribe building. Yeah, we are drawn to thought leaders who confirm our biases. And listen, this is what I wrote down. We are designed for survival, which means two things. One, we want to identify threats, and two, we want to join a tribe that will defend us from those threats.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, that's interesting because I came into this conversation, little behind the scenes is we come up with a topic and then we don't really discuss, we don't.

[Donald Miller]

Talk to each other about it.

[Chris Williamson]

And so we kind of come in with some thoughts. And one of the things I wrote down was we outsource our thinking.

[Donald Miller]

I've heard you say that before, and it's so true.

[Chris Williamson]

And we let people curate our thinking. But it's interesting you bring up that last point.

[Donald Miller]

Confirmation bias.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. Because I didn't add that into my equation. And you're right, though, because I outsource my thinking to people who think like me. It's very difficult for me.

[Donald Miller]

Who justify your thoughts.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, absolutely. And it's even to you.

[Donald Miller]

We all do it, by the way. People are just. People are probably listening, going, well, I don't do that. No, you absolutely do. You do it with different thought leaders who contend with the other popular thought leader.

[Chris Williamson]

I remember in my 20s, part of my struggle was I was always looking for the next video or book to give me the answer. I always thought kind of the first point of, maybe they have the answer that I just haven't found yet. And if I just listen to that episode or if I just read that book, I can discover what I'm missing. And there's kind of that feeling of, if only I can just find what the truth is here in this latest episode, then I will be happy. And so some of that, though, was my kind of confirmation bias of like they had something I didn't know I needed, and I was letting them kind of tell me, what did I need to do next? Kind of, again, back to that. Outsourcing my next steps in life. But that's the thing I haven't contended with, is you're right. The tribal nature, we naturally gravitate to one side or the other. Just naturally right or wrong to groups of people. Absolutely. It's a survival nature.

[Donald Miller]

And the way studies show over and over that you think what your friends think. In other words, you think you're being objective, but you're actually not. Your subconscious brain is convincing you that this group of people is right. Because if we all agree with each other, we feel safe in a group, which is fascinating.

[Chris Williamson]

It is.

[Donald Miller]

In other words, you could actually take yourself out of your current environment and put yourself in a different environment. And about three years later, you probably would believe what that group believes at least a lot more than you used to. Just because you don't want to be an outlier. Yeah, because it's dangerous to be an outlier.

[Chris Williamson]

I'm from St. Louis, and I moved to Nashville 15 years ago. And I remember when I moved here, I very quickly realized the clothes that I wore in St. Louis are different than the clothes. And I started to change through the group. To your point, to the group I was in, kind of subconsciously, but realized I was even outsourcing my. You know, how do I fit in? To some degree. Now, here's an interesting thing. You're a thought leader. I would say. And I would say you are.

[Donald Miller]

I'm content with that a little bit. I would say I'm a hybrid.

[Chris Williamson]

Really.

[Donald Miller]

I would say Chris Williamson is not a thought leader.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

Joe Rogan is a hybrid.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Jordan Peterson is a thought leader and I'm a hybrid.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay. So. Okay, let me rewind then. Because one of the things I got from your definition of a thought leader, it seems to be for you, is someone who goes away and does the work and then kind of comes back and presents that like Huberman Attia.

[Donald Miller]

It depends on whether the work is original thinking.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

And it's coming from a worldview that is your own or a curator of other people's original thinking, supporting perhaps a worldview. And I would say that's the camp that I fit in.

[Chris Williamson]

Got it.

[Donald Miller]

Because if you look at building a story brand, which is probably the, you know, if there's anything that I've done that is thought leader, like, it's that book. And so it's a business thought leader about inviting people into a story. You know, that stuff is based on Plato. It's based on obviously Joseph Campbell and Pathways to Bliss and the Hero's Journey. It's based on Robert McKee's story. It's based on Christopher Booker's the Seven Basic Plots. It's based on Blake Snyder's of Save the Cat. And it applies those thoughts, curated thoughts, best practices amongst ancient narrative structures in marketing. So that's where I innovated. I brought something that existed to. And I don't know that I could. You could say, well, that's a thought.

[Kyle Reed]

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[Chris Williamson]

See, okay, because that's what I'm curious is, you're saying you're a hybrid. I would say that is a thought leader because you took, I think, one of your skills. And I'm specifically thinking about here on a mission, building a story brand, even coach builder, to a degree. Your secret power is to take thoughts and simplify them and put it into a system or framework, which we've talked about that. And put it into something and then teach other people why this matters.

[Donald Miller]

Agreed. But I would actually say, isn't that leadership? Which, by the way, I'm not diminishing myself for saying I'm a hybrid. Let's say I'm a hybrid between a leader and a thought leader.

[Chris Williamson]

Would you say you're more of a cultivator of culture in a sense? Like, if you call Rogan a hybrid, we're getting, like, nitty gritty nerdy. You call him a hybrid. I would say Rogan shapes culture. He's got the biggest podcast there is. He shapes the direction of culture, I believe. I mean, I'm holding the latest version of building story brand. One million copies sold. Like you've shaped marketing. That, in my eyes, then, would put you as. That would be a definition of a thought leader.

[Donald Miller]

Well, you know what? And we're being subjective, right? You and I can walk away with two different definitions of a thought leader. I would say I'm putting thoughts in people's heads. I'm not sure that they're original or my. You know, a thought leader is the one who led with the thought. And I guess that's where I'm getting into semantics. Right? So when I think about the most influential thought leaders who were obvious thought leaders, here's what comes to mind. They're going to be really weird. Karl Marx. Right. Communism, Marxism, socialism. That is a thought leader. And by the way, I'm going to get a bunch of hate mail on this. Marxism is a really, really, really good idea that doesn't work because it doesn't take into account human nature.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. And a utopia society.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah. Vacuum. It works fantastic. You know, you be a dentist and you be a. And screw you with whatever you wanted because this is what's best for the state. It doesn't work.

[Chris Williamson]

We forget the whole human nature thing.

[Donald Miller]

That's exactly it. And I don't mean that is by what a beautiful thing that Karl Marx thought. We were all so generous. You know what I mean? It's not a bad fault to have. Okay, here's one that's going to be out of left field. DOT leader, Dr. Atkins, the Atkins Diet. He thought differently, based on some science and propelled a completely different worldview into our modern lexicon. The Atkins diet, the modern lexiconin. Now it's ketogenic diets and carnivore diets. That's all Atkins. That's what that stuff is. So I would say he led with the thought. And then I remember growing up in Houston, Texas, there were things called Rush rooms. And basically, you could go to lunch at a restaurant with 50 other people in the restaurant eating lunch. Nobody would talk to each other. You know what they would do?

[Chris Williamson]

No, what?

[Donald Miller]

They would listen to Rush Limbaugh.

[Chris Williamson]

Rush Limbaugh.

[Donald Miller]

See, like, so the Sizzler down on Broadway would say, we got a Rush Room. And it means, don't talk. Come here and eat. Bring your friends. Don't talk. Just listen to Rush.

[Chris Williamson]

And people would do that?

[Donald Miller]

Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Hundreds of thousands of people in Houston.

[Chris Williamson]

Would do, sit in a room quietly.

[Donald Miller]

And listen to Rush. And, you know, this is pre podcast man. This is pre, like, conservative media. This is pre Fox News. He was a leader. Not saying I agree with him, but you talk about confirmation bias and tribe building. Rush Limbaugh was the first guy to do it.

[Chris Williamson]

So one of the things I'm hearing you say is a thought leader is someone who has an original thought and moves.

[Donald Miller]

I would say not just original thought, a worldview.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

A view of the world, which is different than a curator. Right. Karl Marx had a view of the world. Dr. Atkins had a view of the human body and the world, how the world worked and the body interacted with the world and food and all that stuff. Rush Limbaugh had a view of American politics. He really sort of defined and became a bullhorn. I mean, politicians followed him. Right. He didn't follow them. And he was also just kind of like, wildly entertaining, which has nothing to do with being a thought leader, but it is super, super helpful. But I would say all three of those completely unrelated industries. Sigmund Freud, thought leader. Right. Carl Jung, curator.

[Chris Williamson]

Interesting.

[Donald Miller]

But Carl Jung was a thought leader. Maybe Alfred Adler was less of a thought leader and more of a curator of personality theory. But Sigmund Freud was a thought leader. Right.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay, I see where you're going.

[Donald Miller]

See what I'm saying?

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Like, the thoughts are. The thoughts are curating thoughts. Fairly original. And they're dramatically affecting and shaping culture when they come out.

[Chris Williamson]

So it sounds to me there's more curators than there are thought leaders. Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about everything you're saying right now. Processing. We're at an interesting inflection in time because as we talk about the rise of thought leaders. And I even would add an addendum in this. The rise of Curators.

[Donald Miller]

Bullhorns.

[Chris Williamson]

We're at an interesting time where now more than ever, you said bullhorns. There's more noise, there's more opportunity. There's more opportunity for people on all kinds of different mediums to get their thoughts out there. And maybe they're not their thoughts. Maybe they're more curating thoughts. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Like Alex from Rosie would be a curator.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay.

[Donald Miller]

He definitely is. Brilliant.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, go tell me more about that.

[Donald Miller]

If I said to you, what is the original worldview that Alex Hormozi brings in, you'd have trouble articulating it, right? If I had Sigmund Freud, you'd say, oh, we are hardwired by nurture and nature in our upbringing. And various traumatic and sexual orientations based on. He was explaining why people did things in a different way than anybody ever. What Alex Hormozi is saying is, here's some fricking awesome curated ideas and strategies on growing a business that's hard to even call it a thought leader. And that is not to diminish me or him or anybody else. There is leadership.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

We're getting into semantics, right?

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. Well. And I think.

[Donald Miller]

But I think we have to define what a thought leader is.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. It's kind of even, you know, got my head spinning a little bit on this idea. You're right, though. Thought leaders more. It just seems like the thought leader sees the world differently and.

[Donald Miller]

Yes. Puts out a thought and makes more revolution and I would say is a giant leap in progress.

[Chris Williamson]

Okay, Don, So someone listening to this, including myself, I'm sitting here wondering, how could I ever become a thought leader?

[Donald Miller]

Do you want to be one?

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah. And what. I mean, why not? Why not? Yeah. But I don't. But now that we're talking about this, I'm wondering what are the steps that I or someone listening to this would even take, and is it possible now to become a thought leader?

[Donald Miller]

I think we would all have to agree that some people have a proclivity to become a thought leader more than others. They're just originators of ideas. I'll tell you who's a thought leader and a lot of people don't think of as a thought leader is Elon Musk. Elon Musk is actually a thought leader in. Especially in the areas of how. In the area of how to run really big organizations. Yeah. I have issues with him being involved in our government in some ways, because there are so many freaking government contracts that he has, it's kind of a dumb idea to put him in charge. And yet I'm like, but if we can get some of that, how to fricking do this thing better than NASA ever did it? I'd like that. And cheaper, with less people and less idiocracy that we have. Or idiocy, I should say. Idiocracy is, by the way, great movie. It's a thought leader movie if there ever was one. But I think Elon Musk is that way. So I think that first of all, I think certain people have a proclivity to do it. I think if you wanted to become a thought leader, here's step one. It's a three part step and you need to define a villain, cast a vision that defeats that villain or usurps that paradigm in culture, and then actually define the values that will make that vision happen. The sort of people we need to be in order to embody those values. So a villain, a vision and values just happens to be three V's. But I think once you establish that you would want to establish expertise in that area, you really want to dive deep into the villain, the vision, especially the vision. Don't spend too much time on the villain and the values that it would take for us to accomplish that vision. And then you got to start creating original content around that and start sharing that. Now a lot of people think, you know, in order to be a thought leader, I need to go on YouTube and start saying smart things. Yes, but smart things about why this villain is no good, why this vision is where we need to head and why these values are what's going to get us there. And then stay in your lane as long as you possibly can and go deep into that expertise. Whether it's like why the stock market doesn't work or why we should be supporting Ukraine, or why globalization is a bad idea, which, by the way, I don't think it is. Why the US military should not be policing our shipping channels, which, by the way, they should. You gotta come up with your area of the world and please, mine is. Mine is. I'm an enneagram3. I'm a high D on the disc test. It's success. It's not just marketing and messaging, clarification of messaging. That's what I'm for, why people succeed. Which is why I love this podcast. You know, I'd love to go deep in, but I'm really more of a curator. Right, but there's a vision there and we're establishing values. And then I think you have to stay committed to long term learning about that for a really long time. The mistakes that you can make are one, you're not an expert, you're a fake. Right. You're just curating information, repeating other people's ideas and trying to sound smart. You haven't identified a vision for the world. Your vision is you being smart. That's a joke. And we don't need you. There's no core values that are building toward your vision or you're not disciplined getting up every day and doing some writing and some content on this thing. That's kind of how somebody would need to become a thought leader. It's hard to imagine anybody doing that strategically rather than just intuitively.

[Chris Williamson]

Well, this has always been a premise of yours is there's something that each person in this world knows more than.

[Donald Miller]

Someone else or has a proclivity to try to understand.

[Chris Williamson]

Yes. And if they can just put it into some sort of framework or structure, they can teach that they can teach. And that's the biggest thing I'm walking away with is a. We've kind of defined what a thought leader is, hopefully. Yeah, I think we have. And then also we're seeing like, okay, how do you curate those thoughts and how do you grab that and then teach that?

[Donald Miller]

And.

[Chris Williamson]

And then there's a way, if you want to go out and start to share that these are the things to follow.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And also, listen, I think we've hopefully, and maybe even more importantly than anything else, we've uncovered a little bit or at least shared some insight on why they exist, both good and bad. They simplify our thinking. They to some degree curate our thinking. They originate new thinking, they innovate. However, we are biased toward our own confirmation. And a lot of times we think people are out to get us, and they're not out to get us because we are here to survive. And so in other words, a thought leader can actually hijack a whole culture to do really evil things.

[Chris Williamson]

Yeah, definitely.

[Donald Miller]

And you got to be really careful with that.

[Chris Williamson]

All right, so why do thought leaders work?

[Donald Miller]

I would just go back to. Because every hero needs a guide. It's a human need to have somebody else telling us how to do it, why to do it, when and where to do it. And that's never going to go away. And listen, if you, if you are a good person with a good heart and want good things for the world, your ideas are good, then God bless you. Just, just, I hope you become a thought leader.

[Kyle Reed]

Thanks for listening to the why that Worked podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you like the show, follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're Enjoying this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and leave a comment letting us know what you think and what you want the guys to talk about in a future episode. Curious about how StoryBrand AI can help you create clear, effective messaging? Well, you can try it out right now and create a free customized tagline for your business. Just go to storybrand AI. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.