#35: Annie F. Downs—The Strategy Behind Her Breakthrough Personal Brand (RE-RELEASE)

Summary

Episode Summary

Overview

Podcast: Why That Worked – Presented by StoryBrand.ai
Episode: #35: Annie F. Downs—The Strategy Behind Her Breakthrough Personal Brand (RE-RELEASE)
Date: September 1, 2025
Hosts: Donald Miller and Kyle Reed
Guest: Annie F. Downs, bestselling author, speaker, and host of the "That Sounds Fun" podcast

This episode is a tactical, insightful exploration of how Annie F. Downs built a thriving personal brand rooted in authenticity, hope, and connection. The discussion moves from Annie’s beginnings as an author and blogger to actionable advice for anyone looking to clarify their own messaging and stand out in a crowded, noisy world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of Annie’s Brand: From Author to Trusted Guide

Timestamps: 01:32–05:44

• Annie began simply wanting to write books, not build a “brand.” Her early blog and first book drew people interested not just in her advice but in her process—how she lives out the things she writes about.
• Annie realized, “They didn’t want me to give them a recipe. They wanted to watch me cook.” (02:29)
• Authentic sharing, not just outcomes, made her relatable.

Notable Quotes:

• “The building has been, how do you stay authentic? How do you still have a personal, private life, but invite people to see how you actually do ‘the thing’?” – Annie (02:48)

2. The Controlling Idea: Defining the Core Message

Timestamps: 03:47–06:59

• Donald introduces the “controlling idea”—the central through-line that shapes content and presence.
• Annie has two: The podcast is a bridge to growth resources; her broader brand is built on hope: “There’s hope for you.”
• “If you’re friends with Annie, you’re going to figure out how to find hope in the life that you have.” – Annie (05:44)
• This clarity not only grounds Annie but also enables her message to land consistently across platforms.

3. Authenticity, Vulnerability & Boundaries in Personal Branding

Timestamps: 06:07–13:30

• Real impact requires vulnerability. Annie shares how talking honestly about her singleness changed her audience's engagement.
• “The thing that will impact people the most is the thing that is most painful for you to talk about.” – Annie (06:26)
• Balance is key; share from a place of processing, not raw pain.
  • “There are times where I have talked about something right when it happened, and my raw emotion actually distracts from the message.” – Annie (09:58)
• Consult trusted friends, coaches, and your team to decide what and when to share.

Additional Insight:

• The importance of not making assumptions about what your audience perceives—explicitly communicate your reality.

4. Discovering What the Audience Wants (and Needs)

Timestamps: 16:09–18:38

• Not everything you want to create is what your audience is asking for. Listening and iterative adaptation is crucial.
• Annie describes how her personal brand evolved as she responded to what her audience repeatedly requested—even if those topics weren’t what she’d initially planned.

Notable Moment:

• The story of Annie being asked for fun coaching: “When they come up to me, help me solve a problem, it’s a fun problem every time.” (17:45)

5. Structuring & Communicating Your Message

Timestamps: 13:30–16:45, 14:26–15:53

• “Every company that gets started, there’s a why behind it, and the consumer wants to know the why.” – Annie (13:30)
• Donald emphasizes the need for a repeatable, memorable sound bite that focuses your message—“Marketing is an exercise in memorization.” (14:30)
• Don’t focus on “what to post” but on a central message or “controlling idea” you hit repeatedly.
• True consistency comes from repetition of your core value proposition, not just from new, daily content.

6. Authentic Systems for Content Creation

Timestamps: 24:08–26:12

• Annie’s process is collaborative; she creates the vision and content, then works with her team on editing and production.
• She likes creating “reels” for social media that blend her faith and personality—using everyday life moments as metaphors for deeper truths.
• Example: Changing a showerhead led to a message about untapped ability and hope. (25:35)

Notable Quote:

• “My content will be about faith… Everything I needed was in the box. I’m curious if the problem you’re facing, if everything you need is right there and you just don’t know it.” – Annie (25:59)

7. Engagement and Platform Strategy

Timestamps: 19:37–23:24

• The pressure to “go viral” is overrated; consistent presence beats occasional spikes.
• The frequency of posting should fit both the platform (e.g., TikTok demands more) and your soul’s bandwidth. Annie prioritizes rest and sustainability.
• Sundays around dinner time are Annie’s best social media moments (“I try to do heartfelt Sunday evenings…” – 23:34)
• Data and audience surveys inform content timing and format.

8. Navigating the Tension Between Market Demand and Personal Boundaries

Timestamps: 26:52–29:46

• Sometimes, the content that “hits” is not what you wish to become known for—be intentional about where to lean in, and where to draw lines.
• “There are things that you can be known for that you can’t get unknown.” – Donald (29:03)
• Both Annie and Donald discuss content areas they avoid to protect their own long-term happiness and direction.

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Actionable Takeaways

• Find your controlling idea: Clearly define the core message or hope your presence offers, and repeat it often.
• Show, don’t just tell: Share how you live your values and navigate challenges, not just advice or outcomes.
• Balance vulnerability with wisdom: Share from learned lessons, not from unprocessed pain. Use coaches and trusted confidantes to discern fit.
• Let your audience help shape your brand: Pay attention to the questions you get most, and be willing to adapt your “offering” accordingly.
• Consistency beats virality: Show up regularly and thoughtfully, and don’t sacrifice your well-being to chase metrics.
• Develop repeatable sound bites: Make your message easy to remember and share, so people know exactly where your brand fits in their life.
• Stay authentic to your own voice: Don’t feel pressured to imitate viral formats or personas that don’t fit you.
• Use data: Survey your audience, check analytics, and let evidence guide timing and content format decisions.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “They didn’t want me to give them a recipe. They wanted to watch me cook.” – Annie (02:29)
• “The thing that will impact people the most is the thing that is most painful for you to talk about.” – Annie (06:26)
• “Don’t put people in the mind reading business.” – Donald (07:55)
• “What I want to occupy in your mental real estate. That’s what messaging is.” – Donald (14:47)
• “If you want to position yourself as the guide and not the hero…the guide is the one who helps the hero.” – Donald (10:33)
• “Every company that gets started, there’s a why behind it, and the consumer wants to know the why.” – Annie (13:30)
• “If I could do my job without social media, I absolutely would.” – Annie (22:34)
• “There are things that you can be known for that you can’t get unknown.” – Donald (29:03)
• “What’s unique about your perspective, and then lean into that to test the waters.” – Donald (36:53)

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Significant Timestamps

• 01:32–05:44: Annie describes her early career and the evolution from authoring to branding.
• 06:07–07:54: Vulnerability and the pivotal moment when Annie began sharing personal challenges.
• 14:26–16:09: The logic behind sound bites, messaging, and how to make content stick with people.
• 19:37–23:24: Frequency, platform differences, and balancing career with personal well-being.
• 24:08–26:12: Content creation process—from raw video to finished “reel” and integrating faith messages.
• 26:52–29:46: Navigating personal boundaries versus audience demand—knowing what you’re willing to be known for.
• 32:40–33:20: Using audience survey data to optimize content timing and topics.
• 35:25–36:53: Annie’s long-term vision—to be a trusted friend in “every section of the bookstore” and every media type.

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Closing

Annie F. Downs’ journey demonstrates that a breakthrough personal brand is both deeply personal and deeply strategic. Authenticity, clarity of message, responsiveness to audience needs, and thoughtful boundaries mark not just what “works” for her—but form a masterclass for anyone seeking to carve out a trusted, lasting presence online or in business.

Transcript

[Kyle Reed]

Foreign.

[Podcast Announcer]

You're listening to the why that Work podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you've ever wondered why certain brands, trends or cultural phenomena find success while others don't, you're in the right place. Every week, we unpack why something worked, then give you actionable insights that you can use in your own life. Now let's dive in with your hosts, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed.

[Kyle Reed]

If you're trying to build a personal brand, and by the way, every professional needs to build a personal brand, the biggest question you might have on your mind right now is how do you do it? Well, today's guest is none other than Annie Downs, a best selling author, speaker, podcast host of that that Sounds Fun. And one of the most trusted voices when it comes to showing up authentically and having a lot of fun in a very noisy world. Annie has built a personal platform that feels anything but gimmicky. It feels human. It feels generous. It feels fun. And if you're a business owner, coach, creator, or someone wondering, how do you actually connect with people online, today's conversation is going to be a powerful masterclass in building a brand. Annie Downs, thanks for joining us today.

[Annie Downs]

Such a generous introduction. Kyle, thank you. That was really kind.

[Kyle Reed]

It was only like the fifth time I've read it.

[Annie Downs]

No, no, no.

[Kyle Reed]

I mean, I got that.

[Annie Downs]

So kind. Thank you. That meant a lot to me. Thank you.

[Kyle Reed]

So, Annie, Don, Annie and I have been friends for a very long time. And I go all the way back.

[Donald Miller]

We've been friends. We've all been stuck around each other 10 years longer. No, no, like six.

[Annie Downs]

So it makes this extra fun. Sitting and talking with friends about business is one of my favorite things, so.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay, well, y' all gonna have to.

[Annie Downs]

Tell me to stop. Cause this is what I live for right here.

[Kyle Reed]

Well, Andy, we asked you on the show because you have built a personal brand, but you've built a business off that. And going back to when I met you, you were kind of in that you're an author. You're starting into that. But one of the things as Don and I were talking about this episode is we've talked about the power of building that and why every professional needs to do that. But we thought you were the perfect person to talk about that. But take me back to when you first started. Where did you begin? What were you kind of thinking? Was it planned? Where were you at in that moment?

[Annie Downs]

Long before it was a brand, it was writing books. That was the real goal was to be an author.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Annie Downs]

And as I and my first book came out in 2012. This has been my full time job for 13 years. What I noticed I experienced this with my blog in the 2000s leading up to my book coming out. Is that what people wanted from me? That felt a unique ask was, we want to see how you do the thing we want to do. So they didn't want me to give them a recipe. They wanted to watch me cook. And I didn't have language for that. Right. At first, I just kind of was like, why are they asking me these questions about where I bought the shirt? I put it on Amazon or, you know, and it just felt like I started to hear the reflection back to me was, don't just tell us what to do, tell us how you do it.

[Kyle Reed]

Interesting.

[Annie Downs]

And so that's kind of. Since then, the building has been, how do you stay authentic? How do you stay honest? How do you still have a personal, private life, but invite people to not only learn how to do the thing or what the thing is to do, but how I actually do it? There is a.

[Donald Miller]

And when you say it for you personally, is it how you write books? How you.

[Annie Downs]

Sometimes it's how I write books. I mean, Don, the real, real is it's kind of everything. It's less about my work and more about my life. How do you. How are you satisfied when you're 44 and not married? I wanna understand how your life is. Okay. Cause I wanna be okay. How have you moved to a new city? I'm thinking about moving to a new city. Tell me exactly what you decided. How have you learned to pray? How have you made friends? They look at my life and say, I would like to do. I have a similar need that you have. I see how you met it. Teach me how to meet it. So if it's fun, if it's dating, if it's contentment, if it's writing a book or starting a podcast, we use.

[Donald Miller]

A term around here called controlling idea. It's like an old screenplay term, but it means what's the story really about? If the controlling idea is Benji gets separated from his family on a camping trip and has to find his way back home to his family, then that kind of creates a filter for the whole story. And I actually recommend with brands, even with personal brands, that there be a controlling idea. For instance, the controlling idea of Dr. Becky's personal brand is she's going to teach you how to be a parent. But even more than that, the controlling idea within that controlling idea is that your kids are actually good. They're not bad. And you don't have to train them. They're actually good, and you bring the good out of them. So that's interesting. Peter Attia's controlling idea is modern research and protocols on longevity, so forth and so on. Do you feel like your personal brand, Annie Downs, has a controlling idea? Is it single, in your 40s, or how to be satisfied or how to navigate modern spirituality, or. Or is it all of that?

[Annie Downs]

So I'll give you two answers quickly. One is when we think about the that sounds Fun podcast. The podcast has a different controlling idea than almost everything else I make. Our podcast is I am a trusted bridge to other resources that are gonna help you grow in your faith and in your thinking. So every. If they stop with me, the listener of the podcast, I have not actually met my goal. Our controlling idea is we want to send you to. I want to be the bridge. And so when people come up to me at a table or at a restaurant or at a signing table or at a restaurant or airport, and they say, I have spent so much money on books this year because of who you told me to buy, bingo.

[Donald Miller]

You're curating the thought leaders and bringing the best of them.

[Annie Downs]

So when we talk about the podcast, we are very clear about that. When we talk about Annie F. Downs as a brand, I would say we haven't written down a controlling idea, but I'd say the trunk of the tree is there is hope. There's hope for you. There's hope for you.

[Kyle Reed]

And.

[Annie Downs]

And there's hope for you. And if you want to write a book, there's hope for you. If you don't have the life that you want, there's hope for you. If you're trying to figure out your spirituality, there's hope for you if you feel lonely. And so the. The. The controlling idea is if you're friends with Annie, you're going to figure out how to find hope in the life that you have.

[Donald Miller]

Okay, that's great.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And did you sit down with a napkin and kind of carve that out, or. It just sort of slowly evolved and you saw it in hindsight.

[Annie Downs]

It slowly evolved. And actually, Don, I think this is an important point. It took me facing that that meant I had to talk about things I didn't want to talk about to really. To really impact people the way I wanted to impact people.

[Donald Miller]

How important then is vulnerability in building a personal brand?

[Annie Downs]

Yes, you. Because the unfortunate reality for all of us is the thing that will impact people the most is the thing that is most Painful for you to talk about.

[Donald Miller]

I remember. I remember decades and decades ago, sitting down and writing Blue Like Jazz. And literally in the third or fourth paragraph of that book, I remember writing that I was a bedwetter until, however, seven or eight or nine. I mean, you know, something that, to me, felt really humiliating to say. And I remember writing it, deleting it, writing it, deleting it, writing it, and deciding to leave it. And I remember thinking, I'm going to try going one step beyond where I want to go. Not three steps.

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

But just one step beyond where I want to go. And I became convinced within a year that opening the book that way was actually a key to engaging readers.

[Annie Downs]

Yes. Once I started actually talking about probably three years ago, into 13 years of my career, really talking about being not married and being still having this desire, but building a life that I really love around it, things change drastically.

[Donald Miller]

And what changed?

[Annie Downs]

Oh, people flocking. There are single women flocking to me that want to know if. How do you navigate? They're gonna be okay. Yes. Is there any hope here? And so. But the reality is, everybody knew I was single. Y' all knew I was single. It wasn't a secret you had to say. I just wasn't talking about it.

[Donald Miller]

There's a principle there, Kyle.

[Kyle Reed]

There's a principle there.

[Donald Miller]

It's like, don't assume. You know, my mentor Doug Keim used to say to me, don't put people in the mind reading business.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

You got to say it. You got to actually communicate it.

[Kyle Reed]

What's the balance there, though? You know, I think if someone's listening to this, they might go, oh, okay, I'm just going to share everything. There's got to be a balance, though, right? Is it? Is the. Because I love that idea of curation. I do agree with that. Someone's got to go. You got to go first.

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Kyle Reed]

You got to go. Honest, you got to go. I mean, I think that's why your podcast is successful, is because it represents you. You're fun, you know, that's kind of your personality. It's not fake. But what is the balance between authentic, genuine, and then, like, too far.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah. I think it's timing is some of it. Or some of it. You know, if you're in the middle of a cancer battle, you can share from the middle or you can wait just a little bit from your diagnosis to when you say it out loud to the public. Right. It's a matter of who are you telling when? And this is why I am. I love what y' all do. And I am this way, too. Like, I've got coaches around me on every side. I mean, you wanna talk about. If I'm running my race, it is lined with people who keep me in the middle, from a business coach to a mentor to a counselor. And I'm bouncing a lot of that. And my team, I mean, you know, my team at work, like Ashley, I'm bouncing a lot of it off my team of going, are we ready to talk about this on the podcast? Are we ready to talk about this in Single Purpose League, our community for single women? Are we ready? Like, am I ready to talk about this? But. So I think a lot of it is timing and inviting other people in and going, hey, I wonder if the fact that our family had to downsize to a different house and we're having to live on a different budget than we did five years ago, I wonder if that would impact people if I really talked about it. Well, I should talk to my spouse about it, and then maybe I should talk to a coach or a mentor about it and see, is this a lane that could help people? And are we far enough, which could be a day or a month? Are we far enough from the pain of it that is so acute that we can speak about it in a helpful way versus a. I think when people. There are times where I have talked about something right when it happened, and my raw emotion actually distracts from the message.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Annie Downs]

It is not that it is bad to be vulnerable or bad to cry, but my raw emotion takes away from what I'm trying to say.

[Donald Miller]

Well, people are looking for. In a podcast or something, they're often looking for somebody who can help them and somebody who has had, past tense, the same problem they have now. But the word is. The had is important.

[Annie Downs]

That's right.

[Donald Miller]

Because it's the difference between offering advice and asking for sympathy.

[Annie Downs]

Yes. That's good.

[Donald Miller]

So you could actually say, hey, I've been exactly where you are. In fact, I'm only three steps ahead of you. But the reality is I'm three steps ahead of you.

[Annie Downs]

That's right.

[Donald Miller]

Because people are looking for some help. I've always written about issues in my life after they've been largely solved. So I'll only write in hindsight of I was dealing with this rather than I am dealing with this now. And I think there's something to that. If you want to position yourself as the guide and not the hero. The guide is the one who helps the hero. You know, they're not the one involved.

[Annie Downs]

If it is just a decade difference, meaning my life is not different about being married than I was at 34. But women that are 34 feel a lot of hope looking at me, even though my life hasn't changed. They didn't need me to get married. They needed me to get older, to feel like I could offer them hope. Because then it didn't mean I'll be okay if I get married. It was like, I'll be okay if I just keep going. And so you're right. It isn't even that the guide needs to change and get the thing they wanted. They just need to grow from the place they were.

[Kyle Reed]

There's also a progression there too. You're not the same person.

[Annie Downs]

That's right.

[Kyle Reed]

And you've shared that along the way, which I think is super powerful.

[Annie Downs]

It's one of the challenges of writing books is people can go and pick up Blue Light Jazz or go and pick up Remember God? Or some of my earlier ones. And I'm like, that is a time locked capsule that you can absolutely read and grow.

[Donald Miller]

And for the reader, it's you yesterday.

[Annie Downs]

And it's right now.

[Donald Miller]

It's really you two years ago.

[Kyle Reed]

That's a weird part.

[Annie Downs]

It's a weird part of it where you go like, here is a shelf of my yearbooks, but you're reading them like they're 20, 25. And I wrote that in 2014. But yeah, the growth is part of what we get to do. Especially when your personal brand is the face they're seeing and that they're watching me age over online, particularly for the last 20 years. And they are seeing me go through breakups and they're seeing me build businesses and they're seeing things not work that we thought. I mean, professionally and personally, they're seeing successes and failures and mistakes I've made, mistakes that were very public. And so in all of that, it is the. You are welcome to come along this journey because in the same way, hopefully I'm having enough wisdom to share at the right time and share the right thing. But the connecting idea. Is that what it's called? The connecting idea?

[Donald Miller]

Controlling idea.

[Annie Downs]

Controlling idea, sorry. The controlling idea of you can find hope here remains true.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. What do you say to somebody? Let's say they're a small business owner. They're not driven to create kind of a personal brand, but they're listening and going, I probably need to have some more structure around my online presence, maybe a little bit more strategy. What are some messaging ideas that you would share with them to Say, hey, here's some things to consider as you kind of try to build a mini personal brand. By the way, I have a friend who calls it 15 mile famous. And the idea is like, you don't need to be known in Zimbabwe. You need to be known. And 15 miles is not just geographical. Right. It's to the thousand Instagram followers that you're going to eventually have. And. But you're known. You've carved out a little niche in their world.

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

What's some advice that you would give to them?

[Annie Downs]

I mean, I think the basic one would be every company that gets started, there's a why behind it, and the consumer wants to know the why. Why did you start creating quilting patterns? Why did you build this restaurant? Why did you create this thing you wanted to create? Because your passion behind why you spent the hours and the years to build this is going to make me want to buy. And so I like. Even if it's a clothing store, Vinnie Louise is a great example. I liked knowing the why behind that store. It just. I think there's a connection. There's a humanness. So you don't have to be the face and you don't have to be. We don't have to know all your secrets and all your pains. Just. Just tell us why this was the thing you. You gave your life to.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. And do. Do you think that they need to work on a sound bite that they can actually repeat that sort of helps distribute that message?

[Annie Downs]

I think so.

[Donald Miller]

I do too.

[Annie Downs]

I think it really helps if there's a.

[Donald Miller]

It helps you.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

It's not just something you're repeating for propaganda's sake. It helps you understand. And also, I just think marketing is an exercise in memorization. What I mean by that. Messaging is an exercise in memorization. What I mean by that is like you're trying to get people to memorize where to put you in their life.

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

Right. That's. You're trying to go, here's the spot I want to occupy in your mental real estate.

[Kyle Reed]

This kind of connected with me. The other day, my wife and I were at this farm to table dinner with this kindred Farms. They're out.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah. I love them. Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Have you been there?

[Annie Downs]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

So Chef Steven, he's the best.

[Annie Downs]

He is the best.

[Kyle Reed]

A while back, he was talking about, like, their struggle with social media, and it clicked in my brain. I was like, oh, you're trying to solve the problem of what should I post? And it hit me. I go, that's not what you need to be working on. What you need to be working on is a message, sound bites for what you do. So that every time you.

[Donald Miller]

What problem do you solve?

[Kyle Reed]

Every time you stand up in front of the people who go, People go and eat dinner there. They buy a ticket. There's like 60 people. What do you say every time you stand up? What's the sign? What does the sign say when you walk in? What is the email that you send? Post they're trying to solve? I think that's something that people can do inside of a personal brand, is they think showing up is just making content. So I'm just gonna make an Instagram post. The reality is, is you actually need a messaging campaign, which is what we've been talking about, or some kind of talking points or sound bites or a controlling idea that you hit over and over and over.

[Donald Miller]

Yep.

[Kyle Reed]

That's where the content comes.

[Annie Downs]

And it comes between. Here's what I wanna make, and over time, here's what the audience actually wants from me.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Annie Downs]

So you start with that.

[Kyle Reed]

How'd you discover that for you? As you. Cause you blog. Start a blog.

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Kyle Reed]

To be an author.

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Kyle Reed]

And then that evolved very quickly. How did you figure that out?

[Annie Downs]

As I kept making what I wanted to make, people kept saying, that's not what we want.

[Kyle Reed]

Interesting.

[Annie Downs]

And so I was going like, no, no, no. I want to tell you about.

[Donald Miller]

This can be disheartening, I would think.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, for sure. Because I don't. I didn't. The four labels you put on me today are not the ones I would have picked. But it's what the audience kept saying, hey, we see this about you, and we need to understand that. We'd like to understand that for our lives. And so you're right. What someone like a chef Steven could start doing and he is doing is, here's what we do, here's the needs we meet. And then people say, but do you also sell flowers? Could I come buy flowers? And he goes, why is everyone asking about flowers? Okay, we should start saying, here's the best place to buy your fruits, your vegetables and your flowers, you know?

[Donald Miller]

And so that's what sort of incorporate.

[Annie Downs]

Yes. But that one took time for me to start going, oh, man. Everyone is asking me about this one particular thing, whatever that particular thing is in the season a lot of times. Because I'm most known for my books about courage and fun. Those are things I'm most known for. And so which. Great. Why not? It could be way worse than seven. I'M guessing bro with a seven set of wings, Right? I mean, when I'm in the office, my 8 is pretty, pretty significant. But yes, I am a 7 for sure. And so when someone walks up to me and says, you've really helped me, I usually can know it's in one of those two buckets, because that's what I have made and what people have asked for. And the only coaching anyone's ever asked me to do as a coaching label is fun coaching.

[Donald Miller]

Really?

[Annie Downs]

Yes. People want help with books. Sometimes people want help with podcasts, but we do that in the that sounds fun network side. But when they come up to me, help me solve a problem, it's a fun problem every time.

[Kyle Reed]

Huh?

[Donald Miller]

Like they're not having enough fun.

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

Or their family's not having fun and there's a block.

[Annie Downs]

There's some sort of block in their fun and they want me to solve it.

[Donald Miller]

Interesting.

[Annie Downs]

It happens. We've sat and thought about how to do a fun coaching cohort and do like a mlm. I mean, if you knew how many times we've been like, how do we do a certification for fun coaching with absolutely no education? Like, what would we do? What classes? Yeah, there's something there. And we're. Because what? Everyone feels trapped in a way. That's why they're coming to any of us for help. They feel trapped in a way. And the ones who are coming to me feel stuck in either the spot they are in life or stuck in a problem and they're in pain. And so who better to run to when you're in pain and want to get out than a seven? Because a seven's gonna be like, yeah, let me show you 18 escape hatches. This is what I do.

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[Donald Miller]

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[Podcast Announcer]

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[Kyle Reed]

When I've talked with people about starting something, you know that my favorite line they use is, you know, I've had to get over like going viral and I'm okay with doing that. And I always laugh because I'm like, okay, glad you're moved on from going viral after your first post. But I think the message I take from what you just said, I think it's important our audience hears is there is something though about starting and starting and being consistent.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, let's talk about consistency. How often. And I realize this changes so quickly. I mean, we used to say, hey, at least once a week. Can you imagine once a week? Now it's every day. You know, you've got to hit your social media at least once a day. And honestly, the brands that I follow, I mean, it's three and four times a day.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

You know, they're text messaging me and I'm seeing their Instagram posts. I mean, they're fricking up in my grill.

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

And I'm curious from your perspective, like how often, if you're trying to build a personal brand, do you need to communicate something?

[Annie Downs]

Well, I think it depends on the outlet you're going to. So TikTok, in order to really hit on TikTok, I think you have to post three or four times a day. So I'm not doing it because A, I don't have the sole bandwidth to be that person on TikTok. Well, the biggest day is I tried to have it on my phone to do R and D and I was addicted immediately. TikTok. Yes, Dawn, I'm telling you, my second night of having it, I got the hey, do you want to stop and take a break and go to sleep? It was that good and that addicting. And I sleep in a bed by myself and so I have nothing else to entertain me. And I was like, oh, I can't do this particular app because I can't create on it because I can't behave with it. And so it became a non starter for me as a person now. So I don't have the sole bandwidth to do TikTok for me. And for three to four times a.

[Donald Miller]

Day it's also a Chinese data mining organization. To be true, this is not a conspiracy theory.

[Kyle Reed]

No, it's not a conspiracy. The. I knew your answer to this. Oh yeah, I already knew.

[Donald Miller]

There's a reason I'm not on TikTok and it looks like.

[Kyle Reed]

Let me just explain.

[Donald Miller]

One month ago, I'm in The Office of China Policy at National Security and I mentioned that and they all just said it absolutely is. Please tell the public this is exactly what this is. You're doing the woodwork right now. It's not a joke.

[Annie Downs]

Yes, Fair. Okay. So for that outlet, I think for the others, Don, honestly, the first thing I would say to a creator is the thing that matters most is you are rested enough and have a full enough soul to do the work you want to do. If you're gonna be 15 miles radius, famous and impactful, you have to have what it takes to do the job every day. And if that means social media comes second, it has to come second. We have to say us to pastors, we have to say us to leaders of like, you cannot bow to social media or it will steal your soul.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. And so everybody I know who it's not true about everybody, but everybody I know who has a successful presence on social media hates it.

[Annie Downs]

That's right.

[Donald Miller]

They wish they could quit.

[Annie Downs]

If I could do my job without social media, I absolutely would.

[Donald Miller]

Me too.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, I would. And you just. I can't. But I don't do it all. I have some of my team do pieces of it. But I'm with you so long. Answer to your question. I think once a day is about what I do on socials right now. But I'm also writing some things. I mean, I've got. I only have so many hours and so I am doing about once a day posting and once a day storying right now. Now I'm strategic about what time of day I do it because I've paid attention to my analytics and I am paying attention to when are people watching for me. So an example is Saturdays are my day off. I don't get on the Internet if I can help it. I'm not. I don't do a single ding dang thing. But Saturday after Saturday dinner time and Sunday dinner time are my hot moments when people. When my content does the best.

[Donald Miller]

Fascinating.

[Annie Downs]

And so often I don't do anything Saturday night. But I'm very thoughtful about what I put up Sunday after dinner because whatever I do Sunday after dinner is going to be seen by the most people.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay.

[Annie Downs]

And so I'm usually.

[Donald Miller]

You actually know a little bit of the algorithm.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, yeah. And so then I have released myself from like shabby posting right now. And it's like, no, the actual best time this weekend is Sunday after dinner. So just don't worry about it. And Sunday after dinner post the thing that you've either Written earlier this week or. And I try to do heartfelt Sunday evenings. I try to do something that, like, will matter. We. We are a faith and lifestyle brand. That's what we are. Afd that we are faith and lifestyle brand. And so I'm trying to meet faith and lifestyle all the time together. And so that's what I try to do the most on Sunday evenings.

[Kyle Reed]

Can we get a little. I'd like to get a little granular.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Kyle Reed]

You know, Don kind of has his system of creating content. He. He. I've watched him do it. He's kind of got his thing. What. How do you go about creating content for yourself? Is there a system? Do you like to start with words? Do you like. Are you native to Instagram where you're like, I can make a video here. Walk me through that.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

I think that'd be beneficial for anyone listening. What's your kind of granular process for that?

[Annie Downs]

I like reels. I like making reels. I'm not very good at them. So what I do is I do all the videoing of them, and then I send them to our video producer, Craig, and he makes them for me and he says, when do you need them back by? And I go, let's. Let's share them this week. So if there's anything that is, like, time sensitive, I just handle it. If it's a real about. So here's one that I'm about to do is I changed my shower faucet thing. Is that the right word?

[Kyle Reed]

The faucet sounds good.

[Annie Downs]

The shower head, y. It sat. It's a podcast sponsor. It sat in my house for two months.

[Donald Miller]

You have a shower head podcast sponsor?

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, bro.

[Donald Miller]

That's. Get in the game.

[Kyle Reed]

That's impressive.

[Annie Downs]

Get in the game. Impressive. It is so fun. Yeah. And it's great.

[Donald Miller]

That's the only shower head I could. Jolie, Jolie.

[Annie Downs]

So it sat in my house for two months because I thought, I don't know how to do this. And then this narrative starts in my brain. There are just things in my house I don't know how to do. If I was married, if I had someone out, da, da, da, da. So it sat in my house.

[Donald Miller]

Let me just explain this to you. If you were married, you would still have nobody in your house.

[Annie Downs]

There's a real chance. There's a real chance that would still be sad.

[Donald Miller]

My wife is married. She could also learn from your post.

[Annie Downs]

Yes. So here's what I did. We made the reel. I made the reel of and when I changed it, it took me four minutes. Everything was in the box. I just never opened the box. My content will be about faith. Hey, you think there are things you can't do. I believe that too, but actually, everything I needed was in the box. I'm curious if the problem you're facing if everything you need is right there and you just don't know it. And there's a lot of hope here.

[Donald Miller]

You're teaching a sermon through a Sherman.

[Annie Downs]

Head through a shower Head.

[Donald Miller]

Shower through a Sherman.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Annie Downs]

Yes, that's exactly right. So that is the faith and lifestyle where they meet. The lifestyle is. I got a new showerhead.

[Donald Miller]

This is gonna dramatically expand my social media abilities now, you know? Cause there's like a snake. There's a rat snake around our house. She shows up on our front porch every night.

[Annie Downs]

You do this already, though.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, but I could just walk around and go, what's the snake in your life?

[Annie Downs]

That's exactly right.

[Donald Miller]

And are you afraid to pick up this snake that Don jump.

[Kyle Reed]

Did you pick it up?

[Annie Downs]

That would go. I'm about to go bananas. That would go bananas. Because people.

[Kyle Reed]

But you do this. You do this with your content, though.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, you do. That's what I was gonna say. You did a dating one not long ago that all my friends and I watched.

[Donald Miller]

Really?

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

Well, here's the thing.

[Kyle Reed]

You do this. Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

As much as here.

[Donald Miller]

Now talk to me about this. If I do business content.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Which is what? Just by the way, how I make my living.

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

Is business content and coaching certifications and things like this. I get like 12 likes if I do. How do you know if your boyfriend's a narcissist? I get 6 trillion likes, which. I don't have any products on that whatsoever. What do you do when the wind is blowing a direction you don't want to sail? Now, it's not that I don't want to sail that. It's just that, like, I'm not the relationship guy. Yeah, yeah. And I know a little bit because I'm 50 something.

[Annie Downs]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

But you know, what do you do with that? Where it's like the world wants you to talk about something? That.

[Annie Downs]

That's the pay attention part. Right. I mean, that's the same. Yes. That's exactly how I got to where talking about being unmarried is a central thing I talk about now.

[Donald Miller]

Because everybody.

[Annie Downs]

Because the one time I would do it, it would.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Annie Downs]

And so they would show up, and then it was like, well, I'm not interested in doing that again. Because I don't want to be there. Because here's what I thought, Don. If I become the poster child for single women, I'm going to stay single forever. I am making.

[Donald Miller]

That's the lie that you.

[Annie Downs]

That's right.

[Donald Miller]

Which is bullshit, by the way.

[Annie Downs]

Thank you.

[Donald Miller]

That's not true.

[Annie Downs]

Thank you. Yeah. A does not equal B in that story. And so. But there are a Of our friends who go, well, I don't want to talk about this in my personal brand because I wish this wasn't true of me. And you go, I understand. Just because you wish this wasn't true, if you. Doesn't mean it.

[Donald Miller]

You know, one reason, like, in my personal faith journey, I talked once about not being much of an attender of church. Let's just say it that way. And I backed out of that so fricking fast. Not because I don't have a lot to say. I actually have a lot to say because I don't want to be that guy.

[Annie Downs]

That's right.

[Donald Miller]

Like, I don't want to be the guy who, like, found faith outside of institutional religion. I don't want to be that guy. Let's. We'll go over here in the corner. We'll whisper about it.

[Annie Downs]

I'm that way about my physical health. I'm that way about my body. I'm like, I understand y' all are seeing whatever you're saying about my body. You have thoughts about my body. I'm just actually not going to talk about that right now. Like, maybe at some point, but. But I'm with you. That. That the. I stepped into it one time.

[Donald Miller]

There are things that you can be known for that you can't get unknown.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, that's right.

[Donald Miller]

Right. You can't get unknown for that because it is such a sort of felt need area of interest. And I would actually caution people. You are directing. You are directing your life. You are directing hundreds of conversations from here on out. And yes, people are gonna be super, super interested, and you're gonna get a lot of attention for it. Is this the attention that you want? And there is part of me that goes, look, if you want to talk about simple strategies on the American political system, if you want to talk about simple strategies to make more business, you want to talk about growing a small business. I'm in all day long because it's what I want to talk about. You want me to talk about this, which occasionally I will do, but I'm not going that far because I don't actually want to have those conversations. Aren't Very interesting to me.

[Annie Downs]

Okay. So my other question for you though, Don, when you're talking about your content, between the narcissist, the boyfriend narcissist, and the business is. One of my friends who works here often says holidays are our biggest days because people are working on their side.

[Donald Miller]

Hustle, huh?

[Annie Downs]

And so she says, I have a busier day because this story brand people are paying attention. Cause they're not at their everyday job right now.

[Donald Miller]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Annie Downs]

I'm curious if you post on a holiday about business, if that's gonna go farther. Because that's when business people who are inside of us.

[Donald Miller]

Yeah. It's worth experimenting with.

[Annie Downs]

That's it too. It's experimenting.

[Donald Miller]

How do you make more money off Christmas while you're.

[Annie Downs]

How do you. While everybody else is at the lake.

[Donald Miller]

And you're sitting here building, make a million dollars on Christmas Day is now available to you?

[Kyle Reed]

I do think there's a principle, though, inside of that. One of the things I appreciate about what you have created your brand and who you are is it's authentic to you. So a lot of the stuff that comes out is not fake. It's not phony. It's not trying to be someone else. It is authentically you. When you ask what sounds fun, that's a legit question that you want to know. And I think that, that that's something that can think. Oftentimes people show up and feel like they have to be someone else or they have to talk in a certain style or I saw that guy in the car with his tie on. I'm going to try that. There's a blend of authentic authenticity and value. And I think that's why people sometimes show up for the dating stuff. Because it's authentic, it's good. People are looking for that next step ahead is what I see. And that's why it goes crazy. And it's just super shareable. Yeah, that's the other. Like, let's skip over. This is super shareable because it's a broader audience versus go take this business.

[Annie Downs]

And I mean, certification single women are sitting on their phones looking for dudes. It's what we do. So when we're on socials and we see is my boyfriend a narcissist? We're like, is he. Is that what happened with that guy that I just broke up with or just broke up with me? So it's just very. It's meeting a real felt need and people who already care about Donald Miller. Right. Like it's shooting fish you know, it's.

[Donald Miller]

Interesting if I talk about business kind of as a business, as a guy who's grown, a successful business, you know, interest level is maybe 2 on a scale of 1 to 10 because there are just so many people doing that, it's a flooded market.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Donald Miller]

But if I actually talk about the fact that I'm wired as an artist and a memoirist, of all things, like the most artsy fartsy, sit around your underwear and write books, running a successful business, interest is up to like six.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, that's right.

[Donald Miller]

You know what I mean? Because it's like, okay, this is, that's a different angle on the problem that you're not actually wired to do this. You've had to figure out structures and processes. And I only say that to say, what is that for you? Like, what is that for the listener? What's your sort of unique angle in the category that you are inside?

[Annie Downs]

And it may be worth surveying for all of our friends watching. Listen, maybe we're surveying your people. When we did a survey a couple years ago and said, you know, are you married, are you single, do you work, do you have kids? 9% of my audience was stay at home moms. We're like, oh, no wonder we're not getting any interaction in the day. All my people work.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Annie Downs]

And so everything we're sharing at 11am is doing nothing because 9% of my audience is home. 91% of my audience is interested at 6pm Yep. Or at 6am that's the other really hot time for me is if I'll post anything about reading the Bible that morning or a worship song or my morning rhythms in the six to seven central bananas. Because 91% of my audience hasn't gone to work yet.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, that's really good.

[Annie Downs]

And so that has, that helps a lot. So asking, asking your, hey, what do you want from me? What is the thing? What is the problem you'd like me to help you solve? If you just put that Instagram box up there or, you know, and your 15 mile radius, people answer you. You go, oh, everyone's asking me about biscuits. I had no idea they cared about my biscuit recipe. I thought they wanted me to teach them how to trap flies. And they want a biscuit recipe. And you go, I should shift.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. So, okay. So you.

[Donald Miller]

Any biscuits?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, biscuits. You've written books, you've started a podcast, podcast network, you've gone on tours. What. Where are you seeing the landscape going next? For. For you, for brands, for people. What's. What's on the horizon.

[Annie Downs]

Oh, what's on the horizon? You know, I think we're seeing this with Nate Bargazzi. We're seeing this with the chosen. We're seeing this with some of these Amazon prime partnerships. There is a real market for family friendly content. I think, I think a lot of it. The election indicated that the heartland has a lot of power and I think that, that Amazon is. I know Amazon's putting a ton of money into that. And so I think this is a really interesting time for personal brands that are family friendly and even faith or not faith, but family friendly. I mean, one of the things I love about Nate is he doesn't spend a ton of time talking about his faith. Because what was true about eight years ago is you were either a dirty comic or you were a talk about the church comic. Those were the options. And now there's this really cool middle ground of people going, like, I don't have to make that kind of content. I also don't have to just do church stuff, whether it's comedy or books or whatever. I don't have to go like all the way into the church. I can make things that are family friendly right here in the middle. And so. And that's a pretty big audience. I mean, if you look at what Nate's building. Yeah, there is an audience. I mean, I am like, he's playing chess when other people are playing checkers. Right now, right?

[Kyle Reed]

Yes.

[Annie Downs]

And so I'm watching him and going like, I want to build like that. So that's kind of what I'm working on, Kyle, is how do we keep expanding? What I used to say when books were my main thing is when you walk into a bookstore, I want you to walk into any section and find a book from Annie F. Downs.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay.

[Annie Downs]

I want to be your friend in any section of the bookstore because then I think eventually you will work your way to the faith books.

[Kyle Reed]

Interesting.

[Annie Downs]

And that is my long term goal, is that people experience Jesus through my life. And so whether that's the hope conversations about being single or the podcast or the books, that is the trusted. If I'm gonna be a trusted bridge, he's the end goal in the end. So I want them to work their way around a bookstore. Now I'm going, I want you to work your way around every type of media and bump into me. So we have TV dreams and magazine dreams and more books and expanding podcasting. And so all of that is how do we show up in anywhere you want to go? We love going into Parties and restaurants where a friend is already there. Like, I'm just going to. I'm going to look for my friend and I'm going to walk right to my friend. I want to be that.

[Donald Miller]

That's a great way to look at it.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, I just. When someone walks into a room, a podcast.

[Donald Miller]

What's Annie Downs think about this health and fitness trend? What Annie Downs think about growing their own tomatoes?

[Annie Downs]

Because we're already friends. They feel like we're already friends. That is the.

[Donald Miller]

You're really selling your perspective.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

I wonder what this person's perspective is on X, you know, which is what.

[Kyle Reed]

Which is what social media is today.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

Which is a. It's going to be a fun perspective. It's going to be a lighthearted perspective. It's going to be a somewhat, you know, candid perspective, somewhat vulnerable and a female perspective and a single person's perspective. That'd be neat to do a little exercise if you're trying to build a personal brand on what's unique about your perspective?

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, that's right.

[Donald Miller]

What's your neat. What's unique about your perspective on this? And then lean into that to test the waters.

[Kyle Reed]

That would be the controlling idea of this, I think. Whole.

[Donald Miller]

We arrived.

[Kyle Reed]

Yes, we made it. Because, truth be told, 90% of Instagram is people consuming. And the numbers actually probably higher than that. There's very few creating feels like. But, yeah, most people are consuming, and there is an opportunity there for people to get that perspective.

[Donald Miller]

And you know what? You can trust this. I had this experience yesterday. I flew to Atlanta and spoke somewhere and flew back. And Dan Cathy and Horst Schulze spoke the session before me. Now, this is the guy who, you know, made Ritz Carlton what it is, and the guy who made Chick Fil a what it is. Both known for exceptional. Exceptional customer service and attention to people and dignifying the humanity of everybody they meet and treating everybody they meet like that person is Jesus. I mean, Dan Cathy literally said, turn on your airdrop and I'm going to give you my personal phone number to the audience.

[Annie Downs]

Oh, my gosh.

[Donald Miller]

Right? And I got up afterwards and thought the whole time, I'm going, okay, I love these guys. I'm an introvert who gets drained.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, that's right.

[Donald Miller]

Talking to strangers. I mean, it's like, just cut me open and bleed me out. And I thought, do I tell this audience that? And so I got up and I went, you know what? That was amazing. I agree with everything those guys said. I'm the opposite. I Can't do it. I can't. So how do you be an introvert? And the whole audience was fricking leaning in.

[Annie Downs]

Of course they were.

[Donald Miller]

They were leaning in because they were like, yeah, those guys are right. And so are you.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, that's right.

[Kyle Reed]

You just.

[Annie Downs]

Because you connected with every personality in that room that went like, that's so cool. But I can't do that either.

[Donald Miller]

But not only that, they were like, the balls of this dude.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah, that's exactly right.

[Donald Miller]

To get up and go, hey, they're absolutely right. They're absolutely right. And I can't do it.

[Annie Downs]

Yeah.

[Donald Miller]

So how do I do it? That's exactly when I can't do that.

[Annie Downs]

That's exactly.

[Donald Miller]

And I was like, you know, I think I just learned something about telling the truth and being who you are.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. You know, and you said the word earlier. Perspective. I think you nailed it. That's what people are looking for.

[Donald Miller]

Here's my perspective. Here's an introvert's perspective on customer service.

[Kyle Reed]

There's a lot of noise out there, and people are looking for trusted perspectives that help them. Makes sense of the world.

[Donald Miller]

That buttons it up right there.

[Kyle Reed]

That's it. Well, Annie, thank you so much.

[Annie Downs]

Thanks, guys.

[Kyle Reed]

Tell everybody listening a you know where they can find you. But what's. What's coming up. You got book tour. What's going on?

[Annie Downs]

I'm embarrassingly easy to find. Marketing brain will love. I'm just Annie F downs everywhere. That's anywhere you need me. That's how you can find me. If you're walking into a party, that's where you can find me. I'm going on tour this fall with Kane, which is really interesting. 40 cities, 10 weeks, brutal schedule. We'll see how that goes.

[Donald Miller]

40 cities in 10 weeks, right? Yeah.

[Annie Downs]

Weird that I'm not married, huh? Weird that I, as much as I'm home, fall in love with guys on the road all the time. So, I mean, that's kind of what we're working on now. And it is. It is a really fun. I'm having a lot of fun making things good and being. I like that. I like that people think we're friends. And so I'm having a lot of fun being out places and people coming up and saying, I know this sounds crazy, but I feel like we're friends. I'm like, doesn't sound crazy. Sounds like I'm doing my job like I want to. Sounds like I'm right on mission. Yep.

[Podcast Announcer]

Thanks for listening to the why that Worked podcast, presented by StoryBrand AI. If you like the show, follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're Enjoying this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and leave a comment letting us know what you think and what you want the guys to talk about in a future episode. Curious about how StoryBrand AI can help you create clear, effective messaging? Well, you can try it out right now and create a free customized TIP tagline for your business. Just go to storybrand AI. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.