#5: Stories—The Survival Tool Hardwired into Every Human

Summary

Podcast Summary: Why That Worked – Episode #5: Stories—The Survival Tool Hardwired into Every Human

Release Date: February 3, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode #5 of Why That Worked, presented by StoryBrand.ai, hosts Donald Miller and Kyle Reed delve into the profound role that storytelling plays in human survival and success. This episode explores why stories are not just entertainment but fundamental tools ingrained in our biology that influence connections, survival mechanisms, and personal and organizational success.

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Favorite Stories Discussed

Kyle Reed opens the conversation by sharing his recent experiences with compelling narratives in television.

• Prison Break: Reed reminisces about the series, highlighting its enduring appeal despite its "cheesy" elements. He recounts watching it with his wife, noting the show's ability to captivate through its storytelling techniques.

  "The last great story I watched...I was like, this is horrible. But my wife obsessed. She loved it." [00:55]

• The Wire: Another favorite mentioned is HBO's The Wire, praised for its intricate portrayal of Baltimore's drug-dealing underbelly and the relentless efforts of law enforcement to dismantle it.

  "I watched it and I was like, this is horrible. But you know what? My wife obsessed." [01:03]

The hosts also briefly touch upon other notable series like Treme, appreciating its slow-moving plot and deep character development.

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The Power of Storytelling

Marshall Almond emphasizes the unique ability of stories to foster human connection. He explains how stories provide deeper insights into individuals, transforming mere interactions into meaningful relationships.

"There's something special about stories... Now I know a little more about you because you told me that story." [05:19]

This sentiment underscores the episode's central thesis: storytelling is a powerful tool for connection and understanding.

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The Science Behind Stories

Kyle Reed introduces the concept of neural mirroring, drawing upon theories from scholars like Paul Zak, Yuri Hasan, and Raymond Marr. These theories suggest that storytelling can essentially "hijack" our brains, allowing listeners to experience narratives vicariously.

"When you tell a story, you are, in essence, taking over the thoughts of another person's brain." [07:35]

Marshall adds that stories have been fundamental to human survival, serving as mechanisms for sharing vital information necessary for navigating dangers and uncertainties.

"They would use it to share... like here's the information I know about surviving out here." [07:50]

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Storytelling in Modern Media and Social Media

The discussion shifts to how storytelling has evolved with the advent of social media. Kyle posits that effective social media content either opens or closes a story loop, engaging audiences by resolving or introducing compelling narrative threads.

"A good social media post that goes viral is either opening or closing a story loop." [23:33]

Marshall draws parallels between traditional storytelling and modern platforms, noting that even brief narratives on platforms like TikTok serve the same fundamental purposes of connection and engagement.

"They're just storytelling." [26:29]

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Storytelling in Leadership and Personal Life

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the application of storytelling principles in leadership and personal development. Kyle references various storytelling frameworks, including Blake Snyder's "Save the Cat", Robert McKee's "Story", and Christopher Booker's "The Seven Basic Plots", underscoring their formulaic yet effective approaches to crafting engaging narratives.

"It's all about opening and closing story loops." [18:44]

Marshall reflects on the importance of defining personal and familial narratives, considering how stories shape daily operations and long-term missions.

"I'm thinking about what adventure am I calling my girls into on a daily basis." [33:35]

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The Impact of Stories on Identity and Relationships

The hosts explore how stories influence personal identities and interpersonal relationships. They discuss the roles individuals play in each other's stories, emphasizing the importance of crafting positive and empowering narratives to foster healthy connections.

"What story are you living? Are you living a good life or a bad one?" [37:30]

Kyle warns against allowing external forces, such as political parties or corporations, to dictate one's personal story, advocating for intentional and self-defined narratives to ensure personal growth and fulfillment.

"If you do not decide what the story you're living in is and what role you're gonna play... you're letting somebody else take it over." [37:34]

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Concluding Thoughts on Personal Storytelling

In wrapping up the episode, Marshall and Kyle reiterate the intrinsic power of stories to shape lives positively or negatively. They encourage listeners to consciously choose their narratives, highlighting that taking control of one's story can lead to enhanced self-esteem, better relationships, and overall life satisfaction.

"Stories are powerful. You can use them in one of, you know, you can use them for their power in a positive way or a negative way." [35:04]

Kyle emphasizes the responsibility that comes with storytelling, urging individuals to solve specific problems through their narratives to achieve meaningful impact.

"What problem does your book solve? If they can't answer that, that book's not going to sell." [35:23]

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Key Takeaways

1. Stories as Connection Tools: Stories facilitate deep human connections by sharing personal experiences and perspectives.
2. Biological Underpinnings: The human brain is wired to respond to stories through mechanisms like neural mirroring, making storytelling a powerful engagement tool.
3. Modern Applications: Storytelling remains vital across various media, including social platforms and business communications, serving as a foundational element for engagement and influence.
4. Leadership and Personal Growth: Effective leadership and personal development hinge on the ability to craft and communicate compelling narratives that inspire and guide others.
5. Agency in Storytelling: Individuals have the power to define their own stories, shaping their identities and relationships by choosing positive and empowering narratives.

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Final Quote

Marshall Almond leaves listeners with a poignant reminder:

"What story are you living? Are you living a good life or a bad one?" [37:30]

This encapsulates the episode's essence, urging listeners to reflect on and take control of their personal narratives for a more fulfilling and purposeful life.

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Connect and Create Your Story

Discover how to harness the power of storytelling for your own success. Visit StoryBrand.ai to craft clear and effective messaging tailored to your business needs.

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For those interested in the intricate dynamics of storytelling and its impact on human behavior and success, Episode #5 of Why That Worked offers valuable insights and actionable strategies to enhance your personal and professional narratives.

Transcript

[Kyle Reed]

Foreign.

[Donald Miller]

You're listening to the why that Work podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you've ever wondered why certain brands, trends, or cultural phenomena find success while others don't, you're in the right place. Every week, we unpack why something worked, then give you actionable insights that you can use in your own life. Now let's dive in with your hosts, Donald Miller and Kyle Reed.

[Kyle Reed]

Kyle, what is the best story you've seen recently? Netflix movie.

[Marshall Almond]

The last great story I watched this is going to be. Do you remember the show Prison Break?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Marshall Almond was in it, right?

[Marshall Almond]

Yes.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marshall Almond]

So I remember watching that a long time ago. And as every married couple does and sits on the couch and goes, what are we going to watch? And we spent time searching for something. I saw Prison Break. I asked my wife, have you ever watched Prison Break? She's like, no. I go, I remember it being awesome.

[Kyle Reed]

That's funny.

[Marshall Almond]

And so we sat down and I go, let's watch it. And my goodness. Does that not trans. Like, does that not hold up?

[Kyle Reed]

Are you being serious?

[Marshall Almond]

It's so serious.

[Kyle Reed]

How many years? When did you see it?

[Marshall Almond]

It was 20 years ago.

[Kyle Reed]

Easily 20 years ago when it came out. But you saw it recently?

[Marshall Almond]

Well, we started watching it recently, so I watched it when it first came out. I remember. And I just remember, like, this is the greatest show. Like, this is up there with 24. This is amazing.

[Kyle Reed]

And now it's like, really?

[Marshall Almond]

And I watched it and I was like, this is horrible. But you know what? My wife obsessed. She loved it. She stayed up multiple nights in a row till 1am watching episodes, and she'd be like, is it okay if I skipped ahead? I go, yeah, you're not hurting my feelings while I'm sleeping. You go watch this. But the last great story I probably watched, though, still was Prison Break because it actually is.

[Kyle Reed]

It's actually good. So you also say it was good. It holds up.

[Marshall Almond]

It's just so cheesy. It's so cheesy. That's the last great story.

[Kyle Reed]

I watched the last great two, and it's been a minute. The Wire.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Did you do HBO's the Wire?

[Marshall Almond]

Yes. It was a little before my time of, like, being able to watch it, but I heard so much about it, I went back and tried to start watching it.

[Kyle Reed]

I think it's Baltimore.

[Marshall Almond]

Yes.

[Kyle Reed]

And it's story of drug dealing, underbelly of Baltimore. So you've got all the cops trying to catch them, the detectives, people know. Funny story about the Wire. I'm At Barack Obama's inauguration. So everybody in front of me is in a seat, okay? So the important people are right in front of me.

[Marshall Almond]

And you're behind him, but standing.

[Kyle Reed]

And I'm behind. And there's a guy, maybe 40 yards. Incredible, like, incredibly, like, kind of charismatic. I couldn't hear him. He's 40 yards away, but he's the happiest guy I've seen in a long time. Filled with joy. And I just kind of couldn't take my eyes off him. And two days later, I'm in the Dulles airport flying out. And the place is packed. I mean, packed. Like, you can't even walk through the terminal because people are sitting. And I go to a Burger King and I'm getting a burger, and there's not an empty seat in this whole airport. And people are sitting on the floors everywhere. And there's. That guy is sitting at a table for two and there's an empty seat. And I'm in like a 10 minute line to get a burger. And I said to myself, if that seat is open when I get my burger, I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna say, I watched you for six hours in 20 degree weather. I mean, I don't know how. It was so fricking cold. And I get my burger and that seat's open. And so I walk over and I go, can I sit down? And he kind of looks at me suspiciously and he goes, you know, it's an open seat. And I go, I watched you for several hours at the inauguration. And he goes, really?

[Marshall Almond]

He.

[Kyle Reed]

He goes, where were you? I go, I was on the front row. I was the first guy standing. You were also the first guy standing. We were at 40 yards away. He goes, you did watch me? And I go, you were very. You were having a day. And he goes, that was. And I said, tell me about it. Tell me about why that meant something so much to you. His grandfather had been lynched, and he's a black man, and this is the first black president. And he just kind of opened up, tear in his eye. Beautiful conversation. We talked for like 40 minutes. Somebody comes up and they ask for his autograph. And that guy walked away. And I said, I'm sorry, why would that person want your autograph? He goes, well, I've done some stuff on tv, so people who know me, know me, and it's not that big a deal. And I said, oh, what were you on? He goes, the Wire. And I realized, I just watched, like immediately. I went, oh, you're the guy. That's why I.

[Marshall Almond]

And that's why.

[Kyle Reed]

That's why I watched you. That's why I was like, there's something fascinating about the guys because I actually spent, like, hours with them. Wendell Pierce is the actor's name anyway. The Wire, that's an unrelated story, but that dude was awesome. And then Treme might be the second.

[Marshall Almond]

Okay.

[Kyle Reed]

Might be the second.

[Marshall Almond]

I have not watched that, so I feel like that needs. I need to go do that.

[Kyle Reed]

Treme will hook you, man.

[Marshall Almond]

Really?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. It's New Orleans after Katrina. It's. What's his name who got his start on Roseanne?

[Marshall Almond]

John Goodman.

[Kyle Reed]

It's John Goodman. Yeah. And Woody Harrelson, I believe.

[Marshall Almond]

Oh, okay.

[Kyle Reed]

That's cool. And what was fascinating about that show is the plot moved a quarter inch an episode. It's the slowest moving plot of anything I've ever seen. And you can't stop watching it.

[Marshall Almond]

There's something special about stories. It's like, on its face, you could have just said, yeah, I was at the inauguration. I saw this gentleman on my left. He was interesting. And I would just walked away. But there's something that we just did there where now I know a little more about you because you told me that story. Now I'm going to remember that.

[Kyle Reed]

You know, it's called. It's not neural mapping. There's a name for it. Neural mirroring.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah. Okay.

[Kyle Reed]

So there's. So there's some. There's these guys. There's a few different story sort of scholars, and they all. Paul Zak, Yuri Hassan, and Raymond Marr. I know this because I'm reading their names, but they all. They all basically come up with the same theory on why stories. Not really why stories work, but how they work. And they. They get this. They. They come. One of them calls them neural mapping. The other calls it neural coupling, neural mirroring. They're all three saying the same thing, that when you tell a story, you are, in essence taking over the thoughts of another person's brain. In other words, I'm going to speak into your brain and I'm going to hijack your actual thoughts. And. Yeah, that's how powerful stories are. That's how powerful. And so you are vicariously living through me during the time that I'm telling you this story, and your thoughts and I are the same. So my first chess move in this competition of who can explain why that worked to you? My opening move is it works because of. I'm going to have a few other things, but one of them is Connection. Yeah, that when you're actually like the Matrix, right. You're hooked into somebody else's thoughts and you guys are having the same thoughts and we are in our own bodies and our own minds, but we are actually connected and having a simultaneous experience at the time. Time. But that that story is being told that I'm telling you this story and I think connection, right. You say, well, that's not why it works. That's just connection. But connection is associated with survival because two people can survive better than one.

[Marshall Almond]

Yes.

[Kyle Reed]

So the more connected two people are, the more safety you feel. And I posit that is one reason stories have succeeded. It's actually the way to connect cultures. A lot of other reasons we're going to get.

[Marshall Almond]

Well, it's interesting that you said that because some of the. I was doing some research and just the basic stories work, asking that question and one of the things I found was they link it back early on beginning of man, where it was a survival mechanism.

[Kyle Reed]

How so?

[Marshall Almond]

So they would use it.

[Kyle Reed]

So we both are coming up with the same idea.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah, they would use it to share, basically. Share. Like here's the information I know about surviving out here. Let me help you understand.

[Kyle Reed]

When I encounter this danger over by river.

[Marshall Almond]

Yes. And so. Exactly. And so it was a way big cave, big bear. Yes. When you walk this way, be careful type thing, you know. And that was the way they survived. It was a massive survival mechanism.

[Kyle Reed]

It's also like an incredibly efficient and effective way to teach to your point, 100%. I mean one of the number one things. People send me books all the time, their books. Like, hey, can you give me feedback on this book? I hate doing it.

[Marshall Almond]

Why?

[Kyle Reed]

Because if I send you a book and I want feedback on it, all I want is bad news.

[Marshall Almond]

Okay.

[Kyle Reed]

And amateurs only want affirmation.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah, makes sense.

[Kyle Reed]

They want you to tell them that they're a secret genius. But that's not why. The only reason you're sending me a book is I'm telling you how to fix it. And the number one thing that needs to be fixed is you need more stories. You are giving me. This is the equivalent of a keyNote presentation with 37 bullet points on every slide.

[Marshall Almond]

I feel like you've said, I've heard you say this somewhere. I'm butcher this. But there's something with writing for like every. Is it chapters. You need to have X amount of stories. Have you said something like that before?

[Kyle Reed]

Probably. So yeah, I'm trying. I mean the whole idea is more stories, more stories, more stories. Can you communicate this via story, by the way? Most of my first drafts of any chapter, I give myself the same criticism. So I have to go back and say, okay, but can you tell that through a story? Like if you go back through my best selling books, Building a Story, Brand Blue, Like Jazz, probably twice as many stories as the books that the other books. And I think an intellectual has a real problem with that because they're trying to disseminate knowledge and it's knowledge that they want people to care about and they can't. Their brains just don't work that way. They can't keep caring about this list that you've created. Right. It's gotta be, you know, rather than China is eavesdropping, it's gotta be. One time when I was in China, I found a bug in my phone and there was this guy following me, got into the elevator. Now you just tell me which one is more interesting, right? Yes, that's what it is.

[Marshall Almond]

And you remember it and you.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, and you remember it. That's interesting to explore that. Why do you think we remember stories so well?

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah, I don't. That's. I think it goes back to that kind of like early on, that's wired in our DNA is stories. And that's how information was, you know, passed on. There was no such thing as books. There was no visual medium. It was all word of mouth. That's the most powerful is when you hear that story.

[Kyle Reed]

It passes well, it translates well. But this is also. Before they could write it down.

[Marshall Almond]

Yes. And so it's all. Yeah. Oral.

[Kyle Reed]

Oral.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah. For me, I think about some of my favorite books are ones that are narrative form and they sneak. The principles of the teaching. Yeah. Or just like telling. Some of my favorite books are ones that tell their story but use the story to teach you. I connect with that so much more than just here's the five leadership principles you should do when leading a business.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Marshall Almond]

I want to hear about your story and how you navigated that story. Those always have connected with me far more.

[Kyle Reed]

Even the nonfiction ones.

[Marshall Almond]

Absolutely.

[Kyle Reed]

I remember.

[Marshall Almond]

Those are the ones I want.

[Kyle Reed]

Did you ever read. Have you ever read Norman Mailer?

[Marshall Almond]

No.

[Kyle Reed]

Oh, you would love him.

[Marshall Almond]

Really? Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Oh, my gosh. Well, he was a controversial dude. I mean, back in the day, like, stabbed his wife with a ballpoint pen at a dinner party or something like that. Who has it?

[Marshall Almond]

I mean, let's be honest. Gosh, that sounds horrible.

[Kyle Reed]

He was just a jerk of a human being.

[Marshall Almond]

What did he write about?

[Kyle Reed]

The Executioner song? He Won the Pulitzer. I think for Executioner Song might be noble. Somebody fact check me and then tell yourself whether I'm right. You think? This is like a high budget podcast we got here. We don't have a fact checker. Go listen to Joe Rogan. We just say, shit. But Norman Mailer wrote the Executioner song, and it was the story. Okay, here's some interesting fact facts. You want to bullet point a keynote presentation. There was a time in this country in the 70s when a single person had not been executed in 10 years.

[Marshall Almond]

Really?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Like death chamber.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

It was firing squads. So it had been 10 years. In Utah, it had been 30 years. And a guy named Gary Gilmore killed a guy and he was executed by a firing squad. I mean, that's crazy, right? You gotta put 10 people with a rifle and they stuck him in a chair and put a pillowcase over his head. And then who knows who has the blanks or the bullet?

[Marshall Almond]

Oh, even more interesting.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, like super fascinating. So Norman Mailer, who was an asshole and a genius, unbelievable writer, he writes a book called the Executioner Song, and it's about the execution of Gary Gilmore. And he does it in a style that was new in the sense that he told a true story like a novel. Okay, so he went in and it's Gary, and it's his girlfriend and his mom. He grew up in a trailer in Portland, Oregon. He ends up in Utah, and he ends up killing this guy. And I remember about. It's a big old giant book. I used to have a first edition copy. And he gets to the part where I thought, okay, this guy's a good writer. He's Hemingway esque, way more long winded than Hemingway in the sense it's just like brutal short sentences. And then he gets to the part where Gary does drugs. And I got to that part of the book thinking, norman, I don't understand why this guy won the Pulitzer. And Gary Gilmore does drugs. And for like 30 minutes, I feel high. He hijacked my freaking brain. And I felt like I was on a drug trip.

[Marshall Almond]

That good? That was that good, right?

[Kyle Reed]

And I'm like, okay, give this man an award or something.

[Marshall Almond]

Did he win?

[Kyle Reed]

Keep him from stabbing his wife, but give him the award.

[Marshall Almond]

Did he win a Pulitzer?

[Kyle Reed]

I believe it's a Pulitzer. I don't think he won the Nobel Prize. Okay, that's Steinbeck. Yeah, but Steinbeck's is another one. Gosh. Anyway, I digress. So that. That brought out this whole execution topic, big time. And it was because of Norman Mailer that. That became a national debate. He didn't really have a position, by the way, on whether we should execute people or not. But you had an enormous amount of sympathy for Gary Gilmore by the end of it. Because this dude had a really screwed up life. And my point is, because he did it in a story, we actually started debating whether or not we should be bringing this back. And probably because of Executioner Song is the reason we don't use firing squads.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah. Because that powerful story. Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

If you don't do that, then we started lecturing people.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah. Someone needs to write a book about that.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Anyway.

[Marshall Almond]

Well, I think it, you know, as you're talking about that I'm thinking about why do stories work for me? It's the human connection humanizes an issue. It's the. If I'm staring at the TV or I'm staring at another human and I'm looking for how do we connect? I'm looking for their story. I'm trying to find ways that make us human. I think it's the difference between a inanimate object, like this coffee cup is sitting right next to me, versus being able to connect with the story that you have. It connects us. It gives me more info about you. Those are my favorite kind of shows, documentaries.

[Kyle Reed]

It also. It can devalue or value something. Right. Like if you tell a story about Stalin killing all the people that he killed. Stalin used to get everybody drunk. And then he would make his own leadership, like, dance with each other for his entertainment. Like he was a total psychopath. And you tell that story about Stalin, and even though he killed a million people, here's what I'm saying. You could put up on a thing. Here's the millions of people Stalin killed and the peasant community that he oppressed. And you'd be like, that's a bad guy. As soon as I tell you that he'd get his own leadership drunk and make them dance with each other and kiss each other for his entertainment. Cause he wanted to feel powerful. You hate him.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And I told you he killed a million people. Like, that's a bad guy. But when I actually. Oh, that's a. It's a fricking story. Right. It's the story that does it equally. Do you remember Pulp Fiction?

[Marshall Almond]

Yep.

[Kyle Reed]

I think Quentin Tarantino is one of the greatest storytellers alive today. And I think his dialogue is the best. He's one of the great storytellers. You got to get Spielberg and George Lucas. You gotta get those guys up there. But his dialogue is better than anybody has ever written. Do you remember when. Who was the actor in that movie with the watch, with his grandfather's watch? Christopher Walken. Christopher Walken leans down and he's talking to Bruce Willis when he's a kid and he talks about how his dad or somebody's grandfather, I can't remember, shoves this watch up his butt to get it out of some war that he was in. I'm butchering this story and he's holding this watch. I'm going to give you this watch. It's the story that made the fricking watch valuable, Right? It's the story behind it.

[Marshall Almond]

Absolutely. It's it that. That's the kind of stuff I love. It's. It's those moments where you can use the power of story to make something that's an animate object, that's just a coffee mug more powerful.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Marshall Almond]

Because something. I got this from somewhere. Something happened. There's a story to this.

[Donald Miller]

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[Marshall Almond]

You know, I'm sitting with you talking what makes a good story to you.

[Kyle Reed]

All right, now we're getting into it.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

There'S a lot. But I think that essentially to break it down on how you actually tell a good story, it's all about opening and closing story loops. That's what it's about. If you say, why do we pay attention? The human brain. By the way, here's a geek fact. Human brain spends 30% of its time daydreaming on average, when you're watching a story. None. Well, you don't daydream. However, you're kind of daydreaming the whole time because neural mirroring takes over. Yeah, they're taking over and that. Like when you sit down in a movie Theater, and the screen goes dim. That screen starts taking over your thought. It thinks for you. It does all of the work. It thinks for you for two hours. And there are structures in place that have been passed down over time that probably started for the first time being written down in poetics 2000, however many years ago. And then those practices and storytelling have gotten better and better over time. Until now it's really cleaned up. And they know exactly when to open the story loop and exactly when to close the story loop and when to open a subplot before you close this other story loop. And they can kind of hijack your brain really well. And there are formulas for how to do this. Now, in terms of, like, modern storytelling, probably Blake Snyder's book Save the Cat captures it the best and makes it the most accessible to anybody who wants to tell a story. The book is called Save the Cat because that's a scheme that you use inside of a plot to make people interested. You have the hero save a cat at the beginning, so that he just went with Save the cat. Robert McKee talks about this in his book Story. Christopher Booker wrote the best book ever written, in my opinion, on story and story structure and analyzing stories. That book is called the Seven Basic Plots. He argues there are only seven plots that work, and he unpacks all of them. Some people say there are nine, but really the other two are kind of derivatives of some of the seven that Christopher Booker talks about. But it's extremely formulaic. So at the beginning, in an Act 3 structure, you're going to have a hero. You gotta do something to make us like the hero that is Save the Cat. And then that hero is gonna be thrown into an inciting incident. They have a stable life that is suddenly unstable. Right. They're in a car accident. Their kid is. You know, if you're Liam Neeson, your kid was kidnapped. You know, you're an alcoholic, and somebody knocks on your door. It's Child protective Services, and they're bringing you a kid that you didn't know you had. And you gotta clean up your life. I mean, I'm describing so many.

[Marshall Almond]

So many movies.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, yeah. You're 40 pounds overweight, you're walking through the grocery store. You just got divorced. And the love of your life, girl who you had in high school, walks in. She's a yoga instructor, and she makes a passing comment of like, I'd love to see you again. You know, and then you're like, okay, I gotta lose 40 pounds. Now we got a movie about a guy who has. Story begins, it's the inciting incident and then it goes all the way through. Sort of the, you know, Act 1, Act 2, Act 3, midpoint climax, the all is lost moment, all that kind of stuff. But it's very, very formulaic. There are geniuses who can play with the formulas. You really can't break them. Megalopolis was the last movie I saw that me and a buddy walked out of it because it was so bad. Because who did the Godfather wasn't Francis Ford Coppola. It's supposed to be his genius movie. His.

[Marshall Almond]

Oh, that's right. Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Holy crap, that was awful. Yeah, I was embarrassed for Adam Driver and all the other Jon Voight is.

[Marshall Almond]

In it, but it's because they told a bad story.

[Kyle Reed]

They didn't use it. They didn't use the formulas at all. And he was so arrogant and conceited. It was awful, awful, awful movie. In fact, Thad, my buddy and I were there and I'm going, if I was alone, I'd walk out of this. But my buddy Thad is with me. I convinced him to come see it. And he actually goes, do you know what's happening? And I lean over and I go, I know that the Seahawks are on television and that there's a sports bar called the Crow's Nest across the street. And Thad just got up and you.

[Marshall Almond]

Told a better story in that moment.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, well, not only did we, did I, we went to football. We're going to do an episode on football and I'm going to talk about how it works in terms of story structure to keep you hooked.

[Marshall Almond]

Okay, so you open a story loop.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay, so here it's all opening and closing of story loops is what makes you interested in the story.

[Marshall Almond]

Can I take us in a little bit of a right turn? How is story telling how storytelling evolved with social media? Have you noticed that? Have you noticed that?

[Kyle Reed]

I think, yeah, it's. Well, social media can't tell a full three act story, so it's likely. Likely. This is a good question. I haven't thought about it, but I would say that a good social media post that goes viral is either opening or closing a story loop. So, like, I had one on, on how to deal with a narcissist, and it got 11 million. I mean, it's probably 20 million views by now. I don't really know. That was powerful because it closed a very emotionally charged story loop for some people. In other words, like, if they're dealing with a narcissist and they don't realize narcissist. And I come on and I say, here's how a narcissist is gonna react when you do this. All of a sudden they go, I have been aching to figure out what was going on with that dude, and that dude is a narcissist. And so. But if I would have done that by saying, like, here's three reasons that people are narcissists, I don't know if it would have closed an emotional story loop. So they all had an open story loop in their mind.

[Marshall Almond]

And I. Yeah, that's interesting, actually. That kind of makes me. There's so many things to think about that. Because even if you're writing a book, that's a direction you could actually take a book in on leadership, where rather than you're trying to introduce principles, you're trying to help people close story loops that they have open about leadership.

[Kyle Reed]

Whatever. Well, there's a lot of books that have sold a lot of copies. I mean, who's Pulling My Strings Is a book about closing the story loops that narcissists have opened in your life. Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries. Closing story loops.

[Marshall Almond]

Have you ever.

[Kyle Reed]

7 Habits of Highly Effective People. Closing the story loop of how can I make my life more effective. Right.

[Marshall Almond]

Have you ever heard of the trend Get Ready with me on, like, TikTok Instagram? So there are people who will record themselves getting ready for the day, and there's a couple of them who've, like, just taken off. And so think about, are they editing.

[Kyle Reed]

It or whether they just.

[Marshall Almond]

No, there's some that. Well, even the guy you brought up yesterday, the YouTuber Sam. I'm gonna butcher his last name. Soledadec or something. The guy who works out.

[Kyle Reed]

Oh, yeah, yeah. The guy who, like. Yeah, he's like. He's the biggest massive YouTuber.

[Marshall Almond]

But these. These girls who usually do this, they do the makeup or something like that. They're called Get Ready with Me videos. And they sit there for sometimes an hour while they're doing their makeup, telling stories, and that's.

[Kyle Reed]

Is it the stories that are hooking or stories? So is it like, people don't want to be alone? And so they're.

[Marshall Almond]

It's the stories they're talking about, you know, what they're doing that day or what they did the night before or whatever it is. They're just storytelling.

[Kyle Reed]

Okay, this might be a little bit of a tangent, but I saw something on Instagram that said if you want to build a following on Instagram, there are only three reasons people want to follow you or the three reasons are one, they want to sleep with you. Two, they want to be your friend, or three, they want to be you. So if you want to grow a following, be somebody that people either want to sleep with, be somebody that seems like, I would love to have that person as a friend, or three, or be somebody that other people want to.

[Marshall Almond]

Be and tell that story.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Well, I don't know if it's a story, but it's like, I wonder if that doesn't play into those. The ladies in their closet.

[Marshall Almond]

I think it does. I think 100% does because that's their friend.

[Kyle Reed]

That's their.

[Marshall Almond]

It actually nails both sides. I want to be you, and I also want to be your friend.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. You know, we didn't even get into like the importance the characteristics of a hero that works.

[Marshall Almond]

Oh my goodness. There's so many angles. Well, and I think that's why, you know, if you look at. Across. Across every single. Whether it be marketing, tv, daily life, relationships, most of it revolves around story.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Marshall Almond]

And that's why I would say stories.

[Kyle Reed]

Work, I think to narrow down my position and why stories work. Your thesis, they offer three things. Connection, which we talked about. Neuro mirroring. So I'm connected to somebody. They also. And Robert McKee talks about this in his book Story. It explains the world. And what he means by that is, when I tell a story, I am giving you my position on what matters, what's worth pursuing, what needs to be avoided, who's bad, who's good. It's a mental map. It explains where I am in this sort of construct of social interaction that we're having in this world. And all of that is interesting for another reason. It is because knowing where I am on the map and not being alone comforts me. And it does another thing prepares me against a threat. So that is my explanation that I posit to you on why stories took off. They comfort us and they prepare us. So the underlying issue behind stories is that it's all connected to my survival.

[Marshall Almond]

Yep. And it helped me.

[Kyle Reed]

It's going to help me survive.

[Marshall Almond]

And I love what you said. It helps us make sense of the world.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. Well, that's. Robert McKee says that it's. It's connection, sense, making comfort and survival. All right, here's a question. Okay, I went down this tangent. How did Jim Jones, Guyana cult leader out of San Francisco, who killed all those people, how did he use story? Let me just ask you this. How was. Without story, those people are. He used story to basically create A horrible tragedy.

[Marshall Almond]

Yes.

[Kyle Reed]

And I think all cult leaders do it. And I actually think. I agree with some people who think that the Republican and Democratic Party acts more like a cult these days than it does. Like, parties that are trying to get things, like trying to fill potholes and stuff.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah, they definitely use story to do that.

[Kyle Reed]

They use story.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

But cult leaders are inviting people into a story in which they play an important role. And so I went back and I kind of looked at what Jim Jones did. He created a compelling origin story. He portrayed himself as sort of a misunderstood child, that he had special abilities and that he was. He fostered sort of an intrigue and a sense of destiny. There's something special about him. Him. Right. So he's not just the storyteller, he's the Christ figure. And you actually look at David Koresh and he said he was Christ. Right. And then you look at Mao Zedong Christ figure. You look at Xi Jinping Christ figure. Quite honestly, you look at sort of Barack Obama, Donald Trump. There's a sort of like, Donald Trump actually says, I am the chosen one.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah, the same.

[Kyle Reed]

I'm not saying he's being manipulative, because maybe he is the chosen one to fix whatever, I don't know. But there's something that we're drawn to.

[Marshall Almond]

He'll go as far as even saying, they come after me because they want to get to you. So there's that kind of savior complex.

[Kyle Reed]

Right. He's the one who's going to rescue you. So that's the other thing that's necessary in a story is a threat. So you have to have a utopian society that I'm going to build a grand vision for the future. I saw this on Instagram the other day. It was one of the reasons your wife has lost interest in you is you are not offering any sort of vision of a better future.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

And so she's, you know. And I'm like, well, that's for husbands, too, probably. And it's also for kids, like, if you're a dad. Because I'm a dad, so I'm speaking to dads. I'm not saying this is only for dads, but a vision for your family's future is massive. Even if it's just like, you know, we're gonna go to Disney World or something.

[Marshall Almond]

I'd call it like an adventure. Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

An adventure that has something you've lost.

[Marshall Almond]

I've got buddies that have lost adventure in their life.

[Kyle Reed]

So let me be clear. I'm not trying to say we as dads can learn a lot from Jim Jones. Just talking about how story structure works.

[Marshall Almond]

We as dads can learn a lot. From stories.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, from stories. But Jim offered, like, a utopian society. David Kressh did the same thing. And then fear and apocalyptic things. This is where I would not say we should do this as dads, by the way, but creating an urgency that is dependent on your leadership. This is massive. It's an urgency that is dependent on a strong man to get us through this. And then a sort of. He did a lot of, like, ritualized loyalty. So he would ritualize. They did suicide drills. And so he was practicing and. Yeah, he, like, was warming them up to actually go through with it someday. Because if you think about it, if he didn't ritualize and do suicide drills, ritualized loyalty is really important.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah, that's what he was checking. Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

But it also creates an us versus them mentality. It blurs. It's very hard for the human brain to know what's real and what's not real when you give them a story, the story. I've always thought this is kind of interesting. With a lot of people, once you tell them a story, even if it's fiction, it's hard for them not to believe it's real. And even if they know it's not real, they'll suspend disbelief and act that way. Anyway. Let me ask you this. Why do you think people dress up as characters and go to Comic Con?

[Marshall Almond]

Wow. I mean, it's the mirroring of joining in on the. You're in the story now.

[Kyle Reed]

There's something there. I don't know what it is. Yeah, I'm in the story. I'm blurring fiction from reality. I'm actually dressing up as this. I'm escaping to that place, escaping my own. And you know what I think it is? They are attracted to a role that is better than the role they're playing in the world.

[Marshall Almond]

They're being called into that story and that. It's an identity they're putting on. It's an identity that they don't. It's almost like they use the. This might be a little over generalization, but it's like the putting on the costume allows them to be someone else, and they can kind of hide behind that, you know, in the story. Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

I think that. I don't know. What's your takeaway from all the kind of looking at it that you did? Like, how does it change the way you live when you say, why do stories work?

[Marshall Almond]

I think the Biggest thesis I would walk away with is. Is when I worked on this was, what story am I calling. What we talked about, what am I calling my family into? Yeah, really, what story am I living out?

[Kyle Reed]

What'd you do about that? Did you do anything or are you not, you know, you need to do something?

[Marshall Almond]

I know a little bit of both. I'm doing something in the way of, like, how we're even operating day to day. But also I'm. I'm still thinking on, like, you know, you've challenged me a lot in the way that you got. Your family has a mission statement, kind of, this is what we do. So I'm thinking about that for the new year. And I'm thinking about what adventure am I calling my girls into on a daily basis?

[Kyle Reed]

If you give those girls a role to play in a really great story, you know what happens? Some asshole comes along and when they go to college, who has a role to play? And that role is to serve them and serve their needs and whatever. And because they've played a better role that you created, they're just like, you're full of shit, dude.

[Marshall Almond]

I'm out.

[Kyle Reed]

I am not. Yeah. Like, are you kidding me?

[Marshall Almond]

That's what I want.

[Kyle Reed]

I think it's like self esteem. Right. It's like, are you kidding me? Yeah. This role that you want me to play with you is so beneath me that I cast you in my mind as a fool.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah. And that's how powerful it is, calling into that identity.

[Kyle Reed]

That's where we talk about structuring story and living into them in a way that changes the world for the better.

[Marshall Almond]

That's right.

[Kyle Reed]

And I think that's what the call of every leader. Every leader is to say this crap we've been doing is totally beneath our humanity. You are the pinnacle of God's creation.

[Marshall Almond]

That's right.

[Kyle Reed]

And we are going to do something really good. Here's what we're gonna do.

[Marshall Almond]

I think that's. If I had to wrap this episode up, it would be that stories are powerful. You can use them in one of, you know, you can use them for their power in a positive way or a negative way. And then the other thing I'm walking away with is kind of. I got to think about this more was when you said some things work because you're helping people. Close story loops.

[Kyle Reed]

Oh, yeah.

[Marshall Almond]

And that's.

[Kyle Reed]

Well, you know, when somebody asks. When somebody asks when somebody wants to write a book or whatever. Yeah. I say to them, the books that do the best and are most appreciated and respected are books that solve a specific problem. What problem does your book solve? And if they can't answer that, that book's not going to. They're going to have trouble writing it, and it's not going to sell.

[Marshall Almond]

And that's not just for books. That's for.

[Kyle Reed]

That's for everything.

[Marshall Almond]

Yes.

[Kyle Reed]

Well, you know, I think it's true of just. Even when you talk about your value as a person that, you know, God loves us unconditionally, people love conditionally. So let's not try to get mad because people aren't God. That's really unfair thing to say. So if you want to fit in with people, be useful. And my question is, what problem do you solve?

[Marshall Almond]

What problem do you solve? Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Like, do you solve the problem of disloyal friends? If you solve the problem of disloyal friends, you're gonna have a lot of friends.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah.

[Marshall Almond]

That's the problem.

[Kyle Reed]

If you solve the problem. You know, women, I think, want to be involved in an emotionally interesting and engaging story. Listen to my single dudes out there. You cast a vision for your future that is emotionally interesting and engaging and adventurous, but also safe. You're gonna have a great time. You're gonna have a lot of trouble.

[Marshall Almond]

You're gonna say you have a great life.

[Kyle Reed]

You are gonna have a great life because you're gonna attract a really amazing woman.

[Marshall Almond]

Absolutely.

[Kyle Reed]

And by the way, I think women are the same way. Like, if you are living a story where you have a lot of problem with men and men are the villain, good luck ever having a healthy relationship with a strong. You're gonna find weak men who want you to be mommy, you know, and their mom was a. Was a horrible person, and they're now trying to mend that relationship through you. That's never gonna work.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

So actually, just think about what role or what role, what use am I? What. What vision am I heading toward? You know, what role are other people playing in my life? And if they're playing a really noble role toward a great cause, I think you're gonna have a great life.

[Marshall Almond]

Well, as cheesy as it sounds, what story are you living? Are you living a good life?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah. What story are you living?

[Marshall Almond]

Or a bad one?

[Kyle Reed]

Yeah, let's end with this.

[Marshall Almond]

Yeah.

[Kyle Reed]

The point is, if you do not decide what the story you're living in is and what role you're gonna play and what important and noble role other people are gonna play in your story, and by the way, you're playing a role in their story, too. So it goes both ways. Other people are going to dictate your story.

[Marshall Almond]

That's right.

[Kyle Reed]

And those people are going to be political parties, corporations. Right. Religion, all of that stuff. And all the roles you're going to play in their story are going to benefit them.

[Marshall Almond]

Yep. That's right.

[Kyle Reed]

It's going to benefit them.

[Marshall Almond]

That's right. You're right. 100%.

[Kyle Reed]

So take, you know, it's your fault. It's your fault your story sucks. You let somebody else take it over and you played a pong.

[Marshall Almond]

And the great part is you can start living a great story today.

[Donald Miller]

Thanks for listening to the why that Worked podcast presented by StoryBrand AI. If you like the show, follow wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're Enjoying this on YouTube, hit that subscribe button and leave a comment letting us know what you think and what you want the guys to talk about in a future episode. Curious about how StoryBrand AI can help you create clear, effective messaging? Well, you can try it out right now and create a free customizing tagline for your business. Just go to storybrand AI. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.