The Dark Reality of 'Skinny Privilege' (w/ Nava Kavelin)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Dark Reality of 'Skinny Privilege'"

Why Won't You Date Me? with Nicole Byer
Guest: Nava Kavelin
Release Date: November 28, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features Nicole Byer in conversation with Nava Kavelin—host of the "Pod Crushed" podcast and author of "Crush: Essays on Love, Loss and Coming of Age." They dive into the experiences of dating, body image, "skinny privilege," self-worth, growing up, and the sometimes dark impacts of pop culture and childhood on perceptions of love. With Byer’s signature humor and candidness, the episode balances tough truths with laugh-out-loud moments and practical wisdom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Skinny Privilege and Visibility

• Personal Experiences with Weight & Dating

  • Nava shares story: weight loss as a teenager brought exponentially more male attention, changing her sense of visibility and self-worth.
    • "[Before my weight loss] I'd had one boy tell me that he liked me. And then that summer, 10 boys told me. I was like, oh, my God. Being skinny, really...just, like, people see you." (03:02)
  • Nicole relates: during weight loss, men became more helpful and attentive; before, she felt “like a fat ghost.”
    • "I was a fat ghost and now I'm a less fat mirage where they can see it." (04:36)
  • Both reflect on how thinness is internalized as a precondition for desirability and happiness—even when this doesn't match reality.

• Societal Conditioning

  • Nicole frames this as not personal failure, but the effect of cultural messaging around bodies.
    • "I don't necessarily think it's unhealthy. I think it's what we've just been served." (04:00)

• Dark Humor & Shared Stories

  • Both share stories of unhealthy weight loss (grief, drugs) receiving positive reinforcement from others, illuminating how “the system” encourages and rewards unhealthy behaviors.
    • "My dad picked me up and was like, whoa, you look great. Whatever you're doing, keep it up. And I was like, whatever I'm doing, keep it up. My dad wants me to do more cocaine!" (05:22)

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Body Image, Self-Talk & Therapy

• Ongoing Struggles with Body Image

  • Nava: Even into adulthood, confidence is conditional—weight gain brings negative self-talk.
    • "When I hit above a certain weight, I think about my weight constantly… if I go above it, then my relationship [with my body] gets really unhealthy…" (05:56)

• Therapeutic Tools

  • Nicole shares a simple therapist insight: talk to yourself as you would a friend.
    • "Hey, why would you talk about a friend like that? You're your own friend." (06:23)
  • Both acknowledge it takes active work to shift this mindset and social permission to enjoy oneself at any size.
    • "Giving ourselves permission to, like, enjoy, have fun, date, be sexy. Like, you don't have to be at any weight for that to be allowed." (07:09)

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Dating Journeys: Late Bloomers, App Experiences, and Relationship Dynamics

• Starting to Date “Late”

  • Both Nicole and Nava started dating “late” (19 or beyond), comparing themselves to peers and pop culture expectations.
    • "I started dating when I was 19...In Puerto Rico, people start younger. Most of my friends had boyfriends in seventh grade." (07:23)

• Dating App Experiences

  • Nicole shares her taxonomy of dating apps:
    • Hinge: “where I've met most of the people I've dated for more than two months.” (09:11)
    • Tinder: “Everyone I've met on Tinder has been, like, just from the dumpster.” (09:17)
    • Bumble: Cultural barriers lead to poor results for women of color, despite the app’s premise.
      • “I only think a certain type of woman can ask a man out and not seem aggressive… Women of color come off as a little aggressive to men…” (09:38)

• Relationship Stability vs. Drama

  • Nicole describes being in a healthy, drama-free relationship (for the first time) and struggling to believe it can be so simple.
    • "There’s no drama. And for a long time I was like, well, I don’t know if this is working...You’re not annoyed by me. You accept that I’m a late person. You ask if I need more time." (08:36)
  • Importance of reciprocity and not chasing after unavailable or non-reciprocating partners.
    • “The literal, basic entry point for relationship is reciprocity. That’s like, the basic thing. And it took me, like, an embarrassingly long time to accept that." (13:29)
    • Nicole: “If somebody says something, believe them. Yeah, believe it.” (18:08)

• Learning to Be Comfortable Alone

  • Both discuss how growth involved being ok alone and leaving “situationships” or non-committal partners behind.
    • "And being okay alone... I was in, like, a situationship for, like, two years. I dated a man for two years who wouldn't be my boyfriend. That's crazy." (17:04)

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Pop Culture, Early Scripts, and Unrequited Love

• Media Imprints: TV & Soap Operas

  • Nava discusses how shows like "Passions" and "Dawson’s Creek" taught her that pining for someone who doesn’t reciprocate is normal—even aspirational.
    • "That idea of, like, it’s okay for it to not be reciprocal for a long time, that felt really normal to me. And it’s taken me so long as an adult to be like, that’s not okay." (13:29)
  • Nicole realizes she has internalized "chasing" as a default, describing suspicion at being liked without drama.

• Religious and Cultural Differences in Dating

  • Nava recounts downplaying her Baha’i faith to attract a Southern Baptist boy in college, and the limits of cross-faith attraction.
    • “He wouldn’t give me a shot. Cause I wasn’t Baptist.” (23:07)
    • Explains Baha’i tenets of oneness and ridding discrimination (20:00–21:06).

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Generational Gaps and Humor

• Aging and Relatability
  • Nicole’s bit about jokingly telling Gen Z kids she’s 67, poking fun at generational divides, and her run-ins with youth culture and music.
    • "They were like, oh, my God, you look great...I'm the hottest 67 year old they've ever met." (29:05)

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Red Flags and Relationship Wisdom

• Red Flags to Watch For

  • Lying, reluctance to discuss commitment, and treating parents badly.

• Nicole’s Comedy Life & Supportive Partners

  • Nicole describes bombing in Buffalo and how her boyfriend’s levelheadedness helped (34:06).
    • "I can call him when I'm down and he'll accept it and not try to, like, make me feel better or make me feel worse." (34:50)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Skinny Privilege:

  • Nava: "You just become visible to people... when I gained the weight back, the numbers went down." (03:02)

• On Dating App Racial Dynamics:

  • Nicole: "I only think a certain type of woman can ask a man out and not seem aggressive, desperate, or needy. And I think women of color come off as a little aggressive to men...when it's the whole premise of the app." (09:38)

• On Therapy and Self-Talk:

  • Nicole’s therapist: “Why would you talk about a friend like that? You’re your own friend.” (06:23)

• On Being Chosen & Feeling Safe:

  • Nicole: "I’ve never been in a relationship where I felt safe to, like, just be me or I felt comfortable in the fact that they like me." (14:40)

• Relationship Advice:

  • Nava: "Don't be afraid of failure...If you can have a sense of humor about it, not take it so seriously, I think it becomes easier." (53:27)
  • Nicole: "Having a sense of humor about it is so essential because the goofiest shit happens." (53:27)

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Key Timestamps

• 01:25 — Nava’s story about a friend whose weight loss (via grief) led to increased male attention.
• 03:02–04:53 — First deep dive into experiences and feelings around “skinny privilege.”
• 07:09 — Giving oneself permission to date/enjoy life at any size.
• 09:11–10:09 — Dating app breakdown: experiences and cultural/racial dynamics.
• 13:29 — Realization on reciprocity and not chasing unrequited love.
• 17:04–18:15 — Escaping "situationships" and being okay alone.
• 24:00–25:00 — Nava explains the Baha’i faith for context.
• 34:06–34:59 — Nicole discusses vulnerability and acceptance in her current relationship.
• 40:07 — Realization that rejection isn’t personal—“They're trying to find someone who works well with them, and just because it's not me, that's okay."
• 53:27–54:44 — Relationship advice and call for potential matches for Nava.
• 55:07 — Nava plugs her book ("Crush More") and recommends the audiobook version.

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Closing Reflection

This episode bravely tackles how society shapes—and often warps—our perceptions of worth and love, especially through the lenses of weight, media, and cultural scripts. Both Nicole and Nava model honest self-examination, humorous vulnerability, and hard-won wisdom, making this a cathartic and relatable listen for anyone navigating love, body image, or the dating world.

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Guest Plugs:

• Nava Kavelin’s Instagram: @nnnava (three n's)
• Book: 'Crush More' (essays, available in audiobook)
• Podcast: Pod Crushed

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Transcript

[Nicole Byer]

Want to watch this episode? Catch the full video on YouTube? Just hit the link in the episode description. This is a headgum podcast. You know what might be the best gift I give myself this year? Finishing my holiday shopping early. Black Friday at Macy's is officially on. And it's not just the biggest deals of the year. It's the easiest way for me to check everyone off my list. Gifts for my best friends, my co workers, any secret Santa. I end up doing all done, all wrapped, all without leaving my couch for me. I'm getting my best friend a super soft cashmere sweater. Which means when December hits, I'll actually have time to curl up and read a book instead of running around trying to a last minute gift. So this year I'm giving myself the gift of calm and maybe even a little extra leisure by shopping early. And here's something that makes it feel even better. When you buy your gifts at Macy's, you can round up for Big brothers, big sisters. 100 of those funds go directly to helping create one to one mentoring relationships that ignite the power and promise of youth. Macy's has already raised over 13 million for BBBs, supporting more than 280,000 mentoring moments. So your holiday shopping can make a real difference. The Macy's Black Friday sales happening November 10th through November 29th.

[Nava Gavlin]

I had a friend whose dad died and she. She's kind of a public figure and when her dad died, she lost like 30 pounds. Like, you know, the grief, whatever. And she said that she's never been more sa and asked out on more dates. And so she was like, it wasn't just that, I. Cause sometimes you're like, well, when you're more confident, you project a more happy energy. She was like, I was miserable and men were asking me out all the time. And I was like, oh, that's so fucking sad. But it's true.

[Nicole Byer]

It is. Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Why won't you date me? Please tell me why, Baby. Welcome to another episode of why Won't yout Date Me? A podcast where me and Nicole Byer was trying to figure out why I was so single, even though you could come in my hand and tell me it was moose. My guest today is the host of the podcast Pod Crush. Her debut book, Crush Essays on Love, Loss and Coming of Age, is out now. I've read bits and pieces of this book and it's so special.

[Nava Gavlin]

Thank you so much.

[Nicole Byer]

And it's so wonderful. And I feel like a lot of people don't like, reflect about the good and the bad of growing up, just a lot of the bad. Anyway, it's Nava Gavlin.

[Nava Gavlin]

So excited to be here. Thank you. Nicole.

[Nicole Byer]

Thank you so much for being here. In the book, you write about losing a bunch of weight, and then the boys like more boys confess that they liked you.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Is that something that stays with you? Yes.

[Nava Gavlin]

So I. The summer that I was 16, I got really skinny. Not totally in an unhealthy way. And then at some point, in an unhealthy way, and I kept it off for a year. It could just be a coincidence, but prior to that, I think I'd had one boy tell me that he liked me. And then that summer, 10 boys told me. I was like, oh, my God. Being skinny, really? I think just you become visible to people. It's even just, like, people see you. So I had, like, all these boys reaching and, like, really aggressively pursuing me. And then when I gained the weight back, it just, like, the numbers went down. So I was like, oh, there's definitely a correlation between being skinny and being desirable. And that has always stayed with me, because sometimes if I'm, like, struggling or I feel like I haven't been asked out in a while, I'm like, well, if I got really skinny, it's like, putting that. It's like, well, it's my own fault. Cause I'm not really skinny. Like, that's how I've internalized it. Like, I could be getting this attention if I put in the work to get down to, like, a size 4 or. Yeah. Which I know is really unhealthy, but that's definitely how I internalize that experience.

[Nicole Byer]

I don't necessarily think it's unhealthy. I think it's what we've just been served.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And I. I've lost weight. With the help of Manjaro, I. I don't know why I need that qualifier. I just don't want anyone to think that I did it on my own because I needed help. Yeah. Because she was diabetic and on planes. Because I have traveled a lot for the last several years, nobody would ever help me with my suitcase. And then all of a sudden, men would, like, leap at, like. And I'm not the skinniest person, but I'm smaller now, and men, like, leap at the opportunity to help me, and.

[Nava Gavlin]

No, it's true.

[Nicole Byer]

The first couple times it happened, I, like, snatched it back, and I was like, I can do it. And then I was like, oh, my God. Why Was I so mad. I was like, oh, I'm mad because I was a fat ghost and now I'm a less fat mirage where they can see it. I don't know. I don't know, but it's totally true.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. Yeah, it is weird, but it's definitely true. I had a friend who. We've all had dead parents, so I feel, like, comfortable talking about this. I had a friend whose dad died, and she. She's kind of a public figure, and when her dad died, she lost, like, 30 pounds. Like, you know, the grief, whatever. And she said that she's never been more sad and asked out on more dates. And so she was like, it wasn't just that. I. Cause sometimes you're like, well, when you're more confident, you project a more happy energy. She was like, I was miserable, and men were asking me out all the time. And I was like, oh, that's so fucking sad. But it's true.

[Nicole Byer]

It's so wild. I moved to New York when my dad was still alive, and then I did a lot of cocaine. I was staying awake a lot. I was not spending money on food. And I lost, like, £60 in a year. And my dad picked me up and was like, whoa, you look great. Whatever you're doing, keep it up. And I was like, whatever I'm doing, keep it up. My dad wants me to do more cocaine. He only knew.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, it's true. It's true. Very often we lose weight in unhealthy ways and people don't know what they're encouraging.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. Do you feel like you have a better relationship with your body now? Yes.

[Nava Gavlin]

I wouldn't say that I have a totally healthy relationship with my body, but when I hit above a certain weight, I think about my weight constantly. And then when I drop below it, I stop thinking about it. But it used to be that I was always thinking about my weight and that I never felt like it was good enough except for that one year. I'm not like that now. Like, I feel like I can recognize when I'm at a level that I'm happy with, but if I go above it, then my relationship gets really unhealthy and I'll have, like, really, like, hateful self talk.

[Nicole Byer]

Ah. My therapist was like, I mean, this is so simple, and I'm sure you've heard it. But my therapist was like, hey, why would you talk about a friend like that? You're your own friend.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's true. Nice.

[Nicole Byer]

And I was like, oh, man. Okay. That is right. Cause I don't talk about my best friends like that, so why would I talk about myself like that?

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. And I bet you don't even, like, evaluate your friend's weight. Like, I'm never thinking about how much my friends weigh. No.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. I once said to my friend, she was living in Portland at the time. She probably doesn't even remember this. I do, though, but I gained a bunch of weight living in New York, and she was like, when are you going to come out to Portland? I was like, I don't know. I'm a. Wait till after I lose some weight. And she was like, why? I was like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't. I don't actually know.

[Nava Gavlin]

I'm so glad she asked you that. Yeah, it's true. And even, like, giving ourselves permission to, like, enjoy, have fun, date, be sexy. Like, you don't have to be at any weight for that to be allowed. You know, you just live a life.

[Nicole Byer]

When did you start dating? Did you.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, my God, so late. Which I really regret. I started dating when I was 19. I was such a late, late, late.

[Nicole Byer]

I don't think that's that late.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay.

[Nicole Byer]

I don't think. Well, I didn't have, like, my first proper date. Oh, my God. Until like, late 20s, I don't think. And then, yeah, I, like, lost my Virginia at like, 19 or 20.

[Nava Gavlin]

All my friends. I don't know, maybe I shouldn't say all, but most of my friends. I think in Puerto Rico, people start younger. Most of my friends had boyfriends in seventh grade.

[Nicole Byer]

Seventh grade.

[Nava Gavlin]

So, like, me not having one until my sophomore year of college felt crazy.

[Nicole Byer]

I just didn't have. I guess I did have the time, but I was like, I don't want to stay at school. I got to get home. I got to get home and eat mashed potatoes. But, yeah, I didn't have boyfriends in high school. Whenever I heard about people dating, I'd be like, what? How do you.

[Nava Gavlin]

So you didn't. You weren't desirous of it?

[Nicole Byer]

I think I wanted it and I think I crushed on people. But I think fundamentally. And like, if I really think about it, I don't think I was mature enough to actually.

[Nava Gavlin]

I don't think most people are in.

[Nicole Byer]

A relationship because I'm in one now.

[Nava Gavlin]

Congratulations.

[Nicole Byer]

That's wonderful. He's really, really nice.

[Nava Gavlin]

Awesome. I can't wait to hear all about it.

[Nicole Byer]

He's so nice. I mean, there isn't much other than, like, there's no drama. And for a long time, I was like, well, I don't know if this is working.

[Nava Gavlin]

Because you're like, it's not. We're not fighting enough.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes. And we're not disagreeing. And you're not, like, rolling your eyes at me. You're not annoyed by me. You accept that I'm a late person. You ask if I need more time. You're really considerate, even though being late is inconsiderate. He asks my opinion on things. I apologized too much, and he was like, hey, let's not say sorry anymore. Oh, my God. That's amazing.

[Nava Gavlin]

How did you meet him?

[Nicole Byer]

I met him on Hinge.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay. I need to get back on Hinge.

[Nicole Byer]

Hinge is where I've met most of the people I've dated for more than two months.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay.

[Nicole Byer]

Tinder is where I've met garbage people.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Everyone I've met on Tinder has been, like, just from the dumpster. The nastiest of Cabbage Patch Kids, the rotten ones. I hate everyone I've met on Tinder. And then Bumble. I do ads for Bumble.

[Nava Gavlin]

We don't have anything coming up.

[Nicole Byer]

Okay. Thank God.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay.

[Nicole Byer]

Okay. So, Bumble, I've said this before, and I stand by it. I only think a certain type of woman can ask a man out and not seem aggressive, desperate, or, like, needy. And I think women of color come off as a little aggressive to men when it's. When it's the whole premise of the app.

[Nava Gavlin]

It's the literal premise of the app. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. I never had anyone respond to me nicely or I never got a date from Bumble. Are you on any apps?

[Nava Gavlin]

I'm not currently, but I've never had a date from Hinge. I think I've had one date from Tinder, which was a total dumpster situation, and then I've had a few from Bumble, but nothing that translated long term. The last guy I dated on Bumble, I had just moved out to la. He's now in a gay throuple. It came out on Instagram, and I was like, I always had a fear. Like, I didn't know. I, like, couldn't put my finger in it. But I'm like, I feel like there's, like, something wrong here. Also, like, he wouldn't touch me. I'm like, he's not touching me enough. Yes, there's something wrong here. Yes, he's living his best life in his throuple.

[Nicole Byer]

That's so funny. I don't think I could be in a throuple specifically because I couldn't be in a Throuple. I've learned I am needy. I need attention.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, I.

[Nicole Byer]

This is dumb. One night, he was showing me a seal, a video of a seal. And then I said, I can be a better seal. So then I pretended to be a seal on the floor, and he just smiled like, okay. And then when I finished being a seal, I was like, you didn't say I was a better seal.

[Nava Gavlin]

Rank us.

[Nicole Byer]

Which one?

[Nava Gavlin]

Who did better?

[Nicole Byer]

He was like, well, you gotta tell me if that's what you need. And I was like, why can't you assume?

[Nava Gavlin]

He's like.

[Nicole Byer]

Because you. What do you mean? And I was like, oh, fair.

[Nava Gavlin]

So that's amazing.

[Nicole Byer]

So he. He likes all of this? He accepts all of it. Because I've dated people where they're. They don't necessarily like that I'm a lot. And that kind of. It just kind of.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's crushing. That's like that Taylor Swift song, Tolerate it. You don't want someone. I don't remember the whole lyric, but it's something like, you don't want someone who just, like, tolerates your love.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes. Wow. I guess I identify with T. Swift.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

So my assistant, Lindsay is a very good assistant, and she does a little bit of research, and she found that you said the show Passions.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Was a huge impact in how you perceived romantic relationships. Yes.

[Nava Gavlin]

In a bad way. It left a negative impression on me, I think. And, I mean, I can't just leave it on Passions.

[Nicole Byer]

But do you remember that show? NBC?

[Nava Gavlin]

Yes, Oprah. It was the first soap I ever watched.

[Nicole Byer]

Kind of edgy.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, it was very, very edgy. And it was like. There was, like, a witch, Tabitha, but basically there was a teenage love triangle. So it was Miguel, played by Jesse Metcalf. John Tucker never met him, but it was Jesse Metcalf. I don't remember the Lindsay something. I don't remember the blonde actress's name, but basically Charity, K. And Jesse. Jesse's name was Miguel. So this character, K, is in love with Miguel. They're like, best friends, but she's never told him how she feels. She's working up the courage to tell him. And then this blonde girl, Charity, moves into town and. And he falls in love with Charity. But in the show, K. Continues to love Miguel. And you're, like, rooting for them. Like, you're rooting for the person that he doesn't love who becomes too obsessive. But I really related to that, and I think it just, like, imprinted on me that, like, it's okay. To be really interested in someone who's not interested in you. Like, because she was really beautiful and, like, she's who the viewer rooted for. So I feel like in my own life, I just started to feel like, no, that makes sense. Like, it's. And then Dawson's Creek, it was sort of like Joey, Jen and Dawson had the same thing, and I related to Joey, and then it came around for them. Jen is Michelle Williams.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, okay. I never saw Dawson's Creek. Yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

So in Dawson's Creek, he's in love with Jen, Joey's in love with Dawson. Oh, and you root for Joey, and.

[Nicole Byer]

Then who's Pacey in love with?

[Nava Gavlin]

He's in love with a teacher that he's having sex with.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes.

[Nava Gavlin]

But then it comes around and he ends up with Joey.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, okay.

[Nava Gavlin]

But that idea of, like, it's okay for it to not be reciprocal for a long time, that felt really normal to me. And it's taken me so long as an adult to be like, that's not okay. The literal, basic entry point for relationship is reciprocity. That's like, the basic thing. And it took me, like, an embarrassingly long time to accept that.

[Nicole Byer]

I just start with this person is when I started understanding, I was like, oh, I don't have to chase you. You're straight up, like, saying, I like you. And I'm like, whoa, that's crazy. I've said this before on the podcast, but on our second or third date, he said, nice to see you again. And I said, what do you mean by that?

[Nava Gavlin]

Why did you ask him that? What did you think he could mean by that?

[Nicole Byer]

I thought he was trying to trick me. I don't know. Like, maybe I would say, yeah, nice to see you too. Then he'd go, just kidding, you stupid bitch. And then, like, hit me with a frying pan. Yeah. I don't know. And I've articulated to him that I was like, I sometimes think when you say nice things, I think, like, you're, like, trying to get me or something. I'm, like, waiting for the other shoe to drop. And he's like, there is no other shoe. You're fine. And I'm like, okay, are you sure?

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Because I've never been in a relationship where I felt safe to, like, just be me or I felt comfortable in the fact that they like me. Every relationship I've ever been in, I'm like, do they like me? And I never had the time to worry about if I actually like them.

[Nava Gavlin]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And then sometimes somebody liking you Is like, you.

[Nava Gavlin]

Like you.

[Nicole Byer]

Ugh. I hate it.

[Nava Gavlin]

Totally.

[Nicole Byer]

I don't know why.

[Nava Gavlin]

I know.

[Nicole Byer]

It's so crazy.

[Nava Gavlin]

I know. It is. It is a little strange. Yeah. So I'm so happy. It's really encouraging to hear that this is where you are. Cause I haven't, like. I feel like I've made it out of being comfortable being treated like shit or things being like a mystery for a long time. That's not attractive to me anymore. But it took a long time. But I just haven't found a relationship where I felt safe. I've found relationships where I feel bored or confused.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes.

[Nava Gavlin]

Those are, like, my two main dynamics.

[Nicole Byer]

Honestly, I feel like if I could do it, everyone could do. Just took a little bit of time.

[Nava Gavlin]

What do you think helped you prepare? Or was it just meeting him?

[Nicole Byer]

Therapy. A lot of therapy. And I have abandonment issues because my parents are dead. Yeah. And. And then I have, like, A. In third grade, Mrs. Hudczynski, she was a lady who hated me. So every morning I had a stomachache. Cause I was like, I don't wanna go to school. That lady just doesn't like me. And then in fourth grade, Ms. Gizzi, both of them said I was an extremist. And I was like, no, I'm not. Cause she was like, you write too big. One of them said, I wrote too big. So then I wrote.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's a crazy criticism.

[Nicole Byer]

Well, my rebuttal was to write so small they couldn't read it. So I was a little bit of an extremist who lives in black and white.

[Nava Gavlin]

I love that, though. That's just like, a good. That's a good rebellion.

[Nicole Byer]

I was like, oh, too big. I'll show you, you old bitch. Try to read this.

[Nava Gavlin]

I want your magnifying glass.

[Nicole Byer]

But in therapy, I've learned relationships aren't black and white.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Someone can feel one way today and another way tomorrow, and you can meet them in the middle. And that has been hard. But, like, I understand it now. So. A lot of therapy, I think. Yeah, a lot of therapy.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. I need to. I have.

[Nicole Byer]

And being okay alone.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Cause I was in, like, a situationship for, like, two years.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I dated a man for two years who wouldn't be my boyfriend. That's crazy.

[Nava Gavlin]

No, I dated someone last year who wouldn't, like, fully commit. And that's. I'm like, I will never do that again.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes.

[Nava Gavlin]

It was hell.

[Nicole Byer]

It was. It truly was hell on earth. Because I was like, maybe on a Wednesday he'll say, exactly.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

But it Was like, no, and got out of that. Was pretty sad about it. And then I read this book called Calling in the One.

[Nava Gavlin]

I've read that.

[Nicole Byer]

Have you?

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, but a long time ago. I need to do the workbook.

[Nicole Byer]

I did the workbook. I only got halfway through, but there was one thing that stuck with me where it was like, are you making things up? And then making them come true? And I was like, huh?

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes. But then also, sometimes I'm not making them come true. With that situationship, I was making up that this man wanted to be my partner. I fully was making that up because he kept saying, I don't want to be in a relationship right now. And I would go and be like, yeah, but one day he will.

[Nava Gavlin]

When you do, it'll be with me.

[Nicole Byer]

And reading that book, I was like, ah. If somebody says something, believe them. Yeah, believe it.

[Nava Gavlin]

Another thing, maybe I shouldn't, like, overgeneralize. But in my experience of men. And then I think I've read this too, when a man is interested in a woman, he locks it in. They want to get exclusive faster than women. Statistically, they lock it up. It's like they're possessive, they're jealous. So if a guy's not trying to do that, you're not his number one choice if you're on the roster.

[Nicole Byer]

And that is sad.

[Nava Gavlin]

It's so sad. Yeah. It's humbling.

[Nicole Byer]

I'm also. I don't know how people date multiple people. I've never been like that. Cause in the beginning of something, I could be like, all right, I went out with you on a first date, and I'm going out on another first date. But if I go out on, like, a second or a third date, I can't keep up with the other one because I'm like, what did I tell them? Am I gonna repeat myself? What if I call you the wrong name? No, I'm kidding.

[Nava Gavlin]

I just, like. I'm trying to think. I've dated. I've never exclusively dated multiple people. I've, like, had periods where I was going on dates with lots of people. But I think, yeah, the furthest I've ever gotten is, like, three dates with two different guys. But I just know by the second date which one I like more.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes.

[Nava Gavlin]

And then it's just, like, unfair. It's just like, well, let me just keep you on the back burner in case this doesn't work out.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. And that doesn't seem nice.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Dating is mean.

[Nava Gavlin]

True. For a long time. It is.

[Nicole Byer]

It really is. Because you're like, I don't know. I'm trying to figure out if I like you, then it's like, no, I don't like you. I'll move on. I was like, what? My God. Ooh. In college, you had a crush on a Southern Baptist boy.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. Yes. What do you want to know?

[Nicole Byer]

You found yourself downplaying your own religion to be around him. That's interesting.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yes. So I'm a Baha'. I. And. And what's that?

[Nicole Byer]

I don't know.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. So the Baha' I faith is a monotheistic world religion. I think it's the youngest of the monotheistic one. Started in 1844.

[Nicole Byer]

What's monotheism? Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

One God.

[Nicole Byer]

Okay.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, yeah. So we believe in one God, and basically, like, in a nutshell, it started in the mid 18th century, 19th century. I always mess that up. Mid 1800s, 19th century in Iran, but is now widespread throughout the world. And the core teaching is the idea that humanity evolves in stages, sort of like how human beings have different stages of maturity, of childhood, adolescence, adulthood. And that humanity has had, like, a very prolonged childhood. And we're on the cusp of. We're sort of like teenagers on the cusp of adulthood. But to become adults, like, for humanity to really thrive, we have to let go of discrimination and, like, these various forms of prejudices, and we really have to change, like, all this, all the kind of institutions and systems of governance, to reflect, like, oneness and to not prefer, like, one group of people over another. So I feel like most Baha' is have, like, a sense of purpose around, like, community building and, like, creating more justice and prosperity for all people.

[Nicole Byer]

I like that religion because it really explains why people be acting up.

[Nava Gavlin]

Totally.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

It's like, you're a child. You're being childish in a way. Yeah. And if you look at, like, the world leaders, a lot of them, like they're toddlers, more dangerous, like, very dangerous. But they feel like children. Yes. Children running in the world, especially the one we have.

[Nicole Byer]

Good fucking Lord.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. So. So that sort of. So I grew up a high and, like, pretty, like, openly, like, was never ashamed of it. And then I met this Southern Baptist guy. I won't say his name, but. Oh, my God. I just. I shouldn't say. I just googled him the other night. I'm not, like, super wealthy. I googled him the other night because I had written about him in the book. I hadn't thought about him in, like, 18 years. And it, like, he's very private. But there was, like, a White Pages listing, and it listed his home. And of course I clicked on it, and his home is worth $7.5 million.

[Nicole Byer]

Whoa.

[Nava Gavlin]

Maybe I should have converted to Southern. No. No, I don't.

[Nicole Byer]

Wait. And I would have gone a step further. I am a true stalker. I'm nosy as fuck. I love knowing things. I would have plugged it into Zillow to see when it was bought, to see if it appreciated or if you got a deal on it.

[Nava Gavlin]

I know.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, my gosh. Such a good point.

[Nicole Byer]

No, it's a terrible point.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. I just clicked on the thing. But anyway, back to this rich guy in college. So he was Southern Baptist, blonde, green eyes, beautiful, thick Southern accent, like Matthew McConaughey. And I was obsessed with him. That's the first time I've ever been obsessed with a person. And I did tell him my religion, like, a couple weeks in, and he stopped asking me out. But then he started inviting me to church things. This is so. And then I started going. And it's like, he's just trying to make me.

[Nicole Byer]

Trying to convert you? Yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

See if I'm, like, open to converting before he's willing to date me. But I was like, I knew I would never convert like that. I was like, I don't have any. There's no part of me that's, like, curious. Like, I'm like, I'm a Baha'.

[Nicole Byer]

I.

[Nava Gavlin]

Like, I really embrace that religion. I've read about other religions. Like, I came to that choice really consciously. So I was just going to spend time with this guy. So it was, like, messed up on both. I think it was messed up on both ends. But, yeah, he wouldn't give me a shot. Cause I wasn't Baptist.

[Nicole Byer]

Which is wild. Cause it's like, you're not getting married. Just have a nice time.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We were, like, 19. We could have just gone on dates.

[Nicole Byer]

If it gets serious, then it's like, hey, I really want to be with someone who's a part. But I don't know. Your religion sounds so literal and nice.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, thank you.

[Nicole Byer]

Where Christianity. You can take parables and stories and twist them however you want. Yeah, I don't like that.

[Nava Gavlin]

It's true. Yeah. I mean, the Bible has been used to justify so many atrocities.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And I simply don't get it. And then some things are taken literally, and some things are, oh, that's just a parable. And I'm like, yeah, but how do you get to pick and choose? Why do you get to Pick and choose. That's why I stopped going to church.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, that makes sense to me.

[Nicole Byer]

Not for me.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Let's take a break. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. I love when someone sends me a link to their website and it looks gorgeous, and I'm like, oh, my God, who did this for you? And they're always like, girl, Squarespace. So if you want that same effect, listen up. Squarespace gives you everything you need to build a website all in one place. If you offer services, you can list them, schedule appointments, and get paid right on your site. And their design tool lets you make your site match your vibe exactly. It's intuitive, it's flexible, and it doesn't fight you the way that other platforms do. And if you've been thinking about selling content behind a paywall, you can put that on your site, too. Tutorials, classes, behind the scenes, whatever you want, it's all built in so you're not bouncing between five different apps. So if you've been sitting on an idea or a passion project that needs a website, this is your sign to make one. Squarespace makes it so simple to start and easy to keep up. Go to squarespace.com date me for a free trial and when you are ready to launch, use offer code date me to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Support for this podcast is brought to you by Chamberlain University. Okay, listen, I know so many people who keep saying they want to make a big change. Go back to school, switch careers, start something new. And if you've ever thought about getting into health care or leveling up in it, you really should know about Chamberlain University, because they've been preparing healthcare professionals for over 130 years, and they're the largest nursing school in the entire country. Learning is actually built for real life there. You can choose from online programs, hybrid setups, or even in person classes. If there's a campus near you. And. And classes start every eight weeks, so you don't have to wait a whole year to begin. You can just start when you're ready. They have faculty and mentors who actually check in, guide you, and help you stay right on track, giving you real support at every stage. So if you've been feeling it's time for something different in your career, Chamberlain wants you to know you've got this. And we've got you. Learn more at Chamberlain, Eduardo. Chamberlain University belong to something greater. Certified to operate by Chev. Holiday shopping season is officially here. And if you're anything like me, you're already panicking a little. You want to get something that actually feels personal, but not like you spent hours scrolling or crafting. That's where Uncommon Good saves the day. They have thousands of gifts you won't find anywhere else. And the best ones always go fast. So this is the time to start checking people off your list. So much of it's handmade or made in the US by independent artists and small businesses. And they've got some really fun experience gifts, too, like a date night cooking class. A dog massage workshop. Yes, that is real. Or a flower arrangement class. Those make such good gifts for people who already have everything. Plus, they donate $1 from every order to a nonprofit of your choice. And they've donated over $3 million already said. Oh, wait. Cross those names off your list before the rush. To get 15 off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com date me. That's UncommonGoods.com date me for 15 off. Uncommon Goods were all out of the ordinary. Oh, baby, we're back. Okay, so you spent your 30s in a series of painful, unrequited, emotional entanglements with a series of wonderful men that you rejected for banal, banyal, banal, banal reasons. So were you in relationships with men that were, like, good, but then you were like, oh, the one thing's giving me the ick.

[Nava Gavlin]

I. So I wasn't. I was basically, like, not dating for most of my 30s because I was, like, rejecting really nice guys and focusing on guys who didn't like me. Like, very emotionally unavailable. I did date one guy for four months. That was, like, the healthiest relationship that I had. And I did break up with him, but I don't want to say why, because he's still a friend of mine. But I had a legitimate. I had a very legitimate reason for breaking up with him.

[Nicole Byer]

You say in your 30s. Can I ask how old you are? Is that rude? Okay. I don't know how old anybody is anymore.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I just know when I see the youth, I'm like, they're youth. Yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And that's how I know I'm old.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I think I turned 40 this year. But I like to say that I'm 62 or 79. I don't know why. I don't know. Why not?

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. Why not?

[Nicole Byer]

Who cares?

[Nava Gavlin]

It is funny that people obsess with, like, they want to look younger or, like, they want to, like, pass off being like, you should just tell people you're older because then you'll look younger. Like, people will be so Impressed?

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. You know, I did a shoot last week and there was a bunch of like, to me they seem like teens, but they were all 25. And they were like, well, how old are you? And I was like, 67. They were like, oh, my God, you look great.

[Nava Gavlin]

And I was like, you're the hottest 67 year old we've ever met.

[Nicole Byer]

And I was like, just kidding. And then one of them had a disposable camera, and I was like, take a picture of me and put it on your refrigerator.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's really cute.

[Nicole Byer]

I don't know if she did.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's so funny. She probably did. I bet she did.

[Nicole Byer]

But it was just so funny to talk to them because I was like, I don't. You're saying things I don't know.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Like, I was like, what music do people listen to? And then they said, a bunch of artists that I never heard of. And I was like, what about Sabrina Carpenter? And they're like, yeah, we've heard of her. And I was like, okay. All right.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's your. Like Gen Z.

[Nicole Byer]

That. Yeah, that's my bridge to them.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's so funny. Oh, yeah. I'm totally out of touch with what young people are doing, listening to.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. I simply don't know. And I don't know how they find the music.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, maybe on Tick Tock.

[Nicole Byer]

Maybe I'm not a TikTok head.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. Oh, interesting. I feel like you would like TikTok.

[Nicole Byer]

That's what people keep saying.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

It's because my phone's not in dark mode.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay.

[Nicole Byer]

And I don't get the dopamine I want from dark mode.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

It's like having my phone on grayscale.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Nicole Byer]

And I don't like it and it makes me upset.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's smart, though. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. I like TikTok, but I don't post that much. But I do. I do get on there and look at stuff.

[Nicole Byer]

I should post more, but I don't. I just don't. I don't have it in me.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, well, don't do it. You don't need another addiction.

[Nicole Byer]

It's a lot. What's a red flag for you in a.

[Nava Gavlin]

In a guy? Yeah. Lying. If you catch someone lying, I feel like that's a. That's like, really important now. A red flag for me is like, unwillingness to talk about commitment or to actually commit, depending on sort of where you're at. And if they treat their parents badly, I think that's a red flag for me.

[Nicole Byer]

That Is interesting because it never. Cause I don't have parents, so it never occurs to me. And then I guess if you talk shit about your parents, I'd be like, oh, I don't like that. My situationship, so easy to talk to on the phone. We would talk for hours on the phone. And the red flag with him was sometimes if I started doing something, he could tell, and he'd be like, you're not paying attention to me. And would get mad at me.

[Nava Gavlin]

And I was like, interesting.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, my God. But this. This man I'm with now, I can talk to him on the phone. I was in Buffalo, New York, two weekends ago. Five shows. Three were so great. Two, I won't say they were bad, but they did make me question whether or not I'm gonna continue comedy.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay, so pretty bad.

[Nicole Byer]

I got to the hotel after my late Friday show and stared at the wall for 15 minutes. And I was like, do I show up tomorrow?

[Nava Gavlin]

Did it, like, did things bomb? Or why did you feel that way?

[Nicole Byer]

So the first show killed. It was really fun, really great. I've done these jokes for about a year and a half, maybe two years now. And then the late show, they just. So I bring this woman with me, Liz. Liz is a killer. Liz is so fucking funny. And her jokes are so well written. Some people don't like bringing somebody funnier than them. But I think it makes me try harder. And I'll write more because I'm like, oh, man, Liz is gonna be there.

[Nava Gavlin]

Gotta keep up.

[Nicole Byer]

I gotta, like, maybe put a tag on something. And then my friend Christy has a funny voice, and sometimes she'll sing for 20 minutes. Like, you never know what you're gonna get, but it'll be goofy. So I'm like, great jokes. If you don't like those two, you're not gonna like me.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And during Christy's set, during Liz's set, there's this one joke that I know, if they don't laugh, I'm not gonna have a great set. And that joke hit, and they were silent, and I was like, oh, no. Then Christy went out there, and I hear from the green room, I wanna kill myself. And I was like, okay. And then I get out on stage and I'm like, I gotta imagine.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I was working so hard, like, just doing extra stuff. And then I did a trick. So I always have my set list next to me because I have decided that I'm going to be kind to myself. I'm a forgetful person. There's no need for me to panic if I can't remember what's next. It's there.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

So I had my notebook and a joke did not hit. That usually hits. And I went, huh, Maybe you guys will like this. And I pointed at it. It's just next to my set.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And it made them feel special that I was trying something. Yeah. Yeah. It's just the joke I was gonna do next, but I added, maybe you'll like it. And then they liked it. And then I kept doing that, and I was like, okay. Interesting. They weren't bad. It was just interesting. And at the end of the night, I was like, you guys have been interesting. And then I was doing crowd work, and I was like, I like the crowd work more than my material.

[Nava Gavlin]

Interesting.

[Nicole Byer]

And that never happens. And I was like, but now I have to go back into material.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And then they were like, more on board. And then the Sunday show, I did a tight 48 minutes. I usually do an hour, but I looked at my little timer and I was like, that's all I have in me, actually, physically cannot be in front of these people any longer.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, my gosh.

[Nicole Byer]

And then I was like, I think I stared at the wall for like 20 minutes. And then he called me and the nice man in my life, and then he said a joke, and I said, haha. And he went, are you. Oh. And I said, I'm so sorry I don't have laughter or joy inside me. Yeah, I think I feel in a terrible mood. And he was like, it's okay. And then we talked for like an hour, and it did bring me a little bit out of my mood. And he was like, hey, I just want to say you were in a bad mood, and I can handle that. But, like, you're not.

[Nava Gavlin]

You.

[Nicole Byer]

Like, you weren't as mean as you thought you were. And he's like, it wasn't directed at me, so it's okay. And in that moment, I was like, oh, I can call him when I'm down and he'll accept it and not try to, like, make me feel better or make me feel worse.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And I don't think I've ever dated anybody.

[Nava Gavlin]

Everything you're saying about him is like green flags. I'm like, put a ring on it, Nicole.

[Nicole Byer]

Giant flag.

[Nava Gavlin]

So wonderful.

[Nicole Byer]

He really is. I can't say enough about him. He's so nice to me. I love that.

[Nava Gavlin]

I'm so happy for you, girl.

[Nicole Byer]

Me too.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's wonderful. How long have you guys been dating?

[Nicole Byer]

A little over a year.

[Nava Gavlin]

And a half. Oh, that's a long time.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, that's wonderful.

[Nicole Byer]

And our anniversary, we went to Vegas and we saw Criss Angel.

[Nava Gavlin]

Fun.

[Nicole Byer]

I love Criss Angel. He is wild. The first time I saw him slightly, slightly racist jokes, but I thought they were funny.

[Nava Gavlin]

Is he not a magician? Am I thinking of the wrong person?

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, no, he's a magician.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay. Okay. I was like, is he a stand up comic? You get.

[Nicole Byer]

You get magic and then you get.

[Nava Gavlin]

And you get casual racism.

[Nicole Byer]

Uh huh.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay.

[Nicole Byer]

Well, I mean, I guess it wasn't racist. He just pulled two black women on stage and put his face between them and went, I'm an Oreo. No, I think it's racist.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, I'm not going to give him that one.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, man, I laughed so hard and I'm laughing right now. I just like, was blown away that he was like, this is going to kill. And guess what? It did. It did. Vegas is a wild place.

[Nava Gavlin]

What? Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And then last time I went, he got heckled. He was talking. Cause he talks in between the tricks. And this lady in the back goes, do magic. And he was like. And he was like, go to David Copperfield. And it blew me away. And then later he called back to it and was like, isn't that funny? None of you know if that was a plan or not. And I was like, we don't. That's magic.

[Nava Gavlin]

Dickens magic.

[Nicole Byer]

Okay, what's your ideal partner? What does that look like?

[Nava Gavlin]

Everything you're describing, Feeling safe with someone, but in terms of his qualities. I like someone smart. I really struggle if I feel bored in a relationship. So someone smart. Someone who keeps up with the news even though it's. I do feel like it's important to understand what's happening in the world. Someone who cares about their community because I'm really. Community. What I was just saying about the Baha' I faith, it's like our whole thing is wanting to give back. So I think that's really attractive. When someone cares about other people. This is a new one that I feel like I should have prioritized more. Someone who. I don't care what your job is, but that he really loves his job and he's really good at it. I really love my job. I hope I'm good at it. And I feel like it's a bad sign if someone doesn't care about work, especially men, because I feel like it's a really big part of their identity and I think it speaks to other issues. That's been my experience when they're not thriving at work. There's other stuff going on. Yeah. And then physically, I don't have a type. I don't even care if he's that tall. A little taller than me would be nice. I'm five' six, but I don't have a type. I've liked all kinds of guys, but attractive, like, definitely an attractive guy. Someone I find attractive. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I never thought I had a type, but if I look through the history, I do have a type. But I don't know. In my defense, I do think I just. Those are the people who've asked me out.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Nicole Byer]

Cause I don't think I've ever dated somebody for a long time where I asked them out. I once went on two dates with a man who I met in my apartment because my roommate at the time brought home a bunch of guys to, like, hang out at the apartment. And I was like, okay. And then I started talking to this one guy, this blonde guy, and I remember I gave him a headshot and I wrote my number on it. So bold. I was 23 years old and I was like, there you go.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's so funny. On a headshot is crazy. That's crazy. You just put it on a napkin. You were like, don't forget me.

[Nicole Byer]

Never occurred to me to put it on anything but that headshot. That's amazing. Amazing because we were talking, I was like, he needs to remember me. I'll send him home with an 8 by 10 picture of myself.

[Nava Gavlin]

You can frame my number.

[Nicole Byer]

I wonder if he still has it. I'm sure he folded it right up as soon as he got in the car home.

[Nava Gavlin]

So funny.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, my God.

[Nava Gavlin]

Did he ask you out?

[Nicole Byer]

He did. He did.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, he might have it.

[Nicole Byer]

He did. We went and saw the Color Purple. Not super uplifting.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, that's an interesting. About a guy. Like, abusing a woman very seriously is an interesting first date choice.

[Nicole Byer]

It was my choice because I had gotten free tickets. And then I. I think the second date we went on, we went to Rudy's, which was a bar on 8th Avenue. But he didn't call me after the second date. And you better believe I said, why didn't you call? Why didn't you text? And then I don't know if he answered. I think he was just like, hey, I don't know. I'm not into you.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh.

[Nicole Byer]

But I spent a long time being very bold, and it took me a long time to be like. Like, no answer is an answer.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's true. Yeah. Also maybe is an answer, and it's no.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes.

[Nava Gavlin]

In my experience, maybe is always no. It's never yes. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Or like, not right now. And it's like, yeah, but when. No, Never.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. Not right now is also no. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I think it's. Nobody ever talks about in dating that it's not. It feels incredibly personal, but it technically isn't.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, that's true.

[Nicole Byer]

And it's not about you. That was the thing I had to learn that it wasn't about me. Cause I'm not the main story for them. They're trying to find someone who works well with them, and just because it's not me, that's okay.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah, I like that a lot. That's like peanut butter and mayo. Like, they don't go well together, but they're both great on their own.

[Nicole Byer]

That made me so upset. I was like, ugh. Peanut butter and mayo.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Not everything goes together. Yeah. Actually, I did think of a guy who. I will just put this out there in case anyone knows. You want to set me up. You know that actor, Brian Greenberg? Is that his name? He's with Jamie Chung. Maybe he was on the LA reboot of Suits, and he's not like an A lister, but he was in a movie called prime with Uma Thurman, and I fell in love with him. And I would say that that guy is my type. If you. That's like my. He's like, is it this guy? Yes. I love him. I love him so much.

[Nicole Byer]

Wait.

[Nava Gavlin]

I love him so much. So if you know anyone like that who's available and looking, I will try my hardest. He's also a little bit of a redhead, but that's not what. I don't mind that. But when I've said that before, people are always like, oh, so you want a redhead? And I'm like, that's just not what stands out to me.

[Nicole Byer]

He does.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

He just looks inviting.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. Gentle.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes. And you'd be like, I just made a fire.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, exactly. Matt Saracen on Friday Night Lights. A guy like that I like.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, boy.

[Nava Gavlin]

I'm basically the same basic white guy.

[Nicole Byer]

Our entertainment has. Our sectors do not cross. Because I've never seen. Dawson.

[Nava Gavlin]

You've never seen Friday Night Lights?

[Nicole Byer]

I've never seen Friday Night Lights, but my mom did watch Passions.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

So I know a little bit.

[Nava Gavlin]

It's crazy that that's the one where we would intersect, because Passions was, like, very niche. It was like the worst of all the soaps, like, lowest ranked. Got canceled quickly.

[Nicole Byer]

My mom watched Passions, General Hospital and Days of Our Lives.

[Nava Gavlin]

I watched Days of Our Lives for a while with my mom.

[Nicole Byer]

That's so funny. As like a child watching it comes on every day.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, every day is hard to keep up.

[Nicole Byer]

Dedicated to keep up.

[Nava Gavlin]

Totally. I think my mom would tape Passions for me and then I would watch it after school or it was on after I'd get home from school.

[Nicole Byer]

I don't remember.

[Nava Gavlin]

But Days of Our Lives was my mom's favorite show. So sometimes we'd watch it together.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, my mom would watch her cuz she also taped them. She would watch them when she folded clothes at night. Yeah, yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

We would do chores and watch them.

[Nicole Byer]

And then I'd stay awake and be like, what is happening?

[Nava Gavlin]

Is Marlena have a clone?

[Nicole Byer]

What? Why? Why is this man. And. And then she'd be like, okay. And then she would explain it all to me. We also watched Ally McBeal together.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, that's a good one.

[Nicole Byer]

Loved Ally McBeal.

[Nava Gavlin]

My dad loved Ally McBeal. Oh yeah, I love.

[Nicole Byer]

She, you know, Kalista Flockhart. She's great. Oh my God. You wanna know what I just watched?

[Nava Gavlin]

What? Did you just watch Indiana Jones for the first time? Yes. What did you think?

[Nicole Byer]

It was so fun.

[Nava Gavlin]

It's good.

[Nicole Byer]

I kept saying, wow, this is like the mummy. And then that nice man kept being like, the mummy is like Indiana Jones.

[Nava Gavlin]

Indiana Jones.

[Nicole Byer]

And I was like, oh my God.

[Nava Gavlin]

Is the first one. Is it Indiana Jones? The first one where she puts her hand in the hole and there's all the bugs.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, no.

[Nava Gavlin]

Have you. Do you know what I'm talking about? I'm sorry, I'm looking at the producer. There's an Indiana Jones where a woman puts her hand in a hole and all these bugs come out. And I always thought it was. I guess I knew there wasn't cgi, but I thought it was special effects. That woman actually put her hand in a hole full of bugs. That would end me as an. Could you do that as an actor?

[Nicole Byer]

No. Because there's a scene where a man's covered in tarantulas and I was like, you couldn't pay me. We gotta get the stunt double in my stand in so I. Bugs. Yeah, I can do it. I can do snakes. I can do a snake. If you tell me the snake's friendly and won't bite me and like, tell me what the vibes are with this snake. I think I could do that.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Bugs. I did a show where there was a cockroach A candle cockroach. And it was like a water bug. It was the biggest thing I've ever seen. And I screamed when I saw it. And the animal wrangler was a nice man who went, hey, no screaming up. No. And I was like, that cockroach is that man's friend.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay, that's crazy that I can't relate on any level.

[Nicole Byer]

And then he goes, do you want to know how we get the cockroach to walk where we need him to walk? And I was like, never in my life. No, I don't want to know. You don't want to look at the.

[Nava Gavlin]

I kind of want to know, actually.

[Nicole Byer]

Now you smear a little bit of banana, and then it, like, eats the banana, and it'll, like, walk in a little line. And then he was like, just holding this cockroach. And they have names. They're like. And he was like, do you want to hold Larry? And I was like, no, no, I don't want to hold Larry.

[Nava Gavlin]

Oh, that's crazy, Nicole. Everything you just said is my nightmare.

[Nicole Byer]

It was so nasty. But then sometimes you get to work with a dog. Yeah, that dog wranglers a little less creepy than that man. That man, he was a little creepy. But I did an episode of Brooklyn 99 where I got to hold this adorable little puppy, and it just kept falling asleep in between takes. It was so.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's really precious.

[Nicole Byer]

Okay, we have to take one more break. I tried to get on you for so many seasons.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's so as. As like, as any character, anybody. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I told my agents I was like, anything. I will be the bitch. Like, just reading in the bookstore. I loved it so much. But I also have a problem where I root for bad men in movies or on television shows. Have you ever seen Roofman?

[Nava Gavlin]

No, I've never heard of it.

[Nicole Byer]

Okay. Nobody has.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay.

[Nicole Byer]

It's a Channing Tatum movie that came out this year, but the poster looked like a fake movie in a movie.

[Nava Gavlin]

Okay.

[Nicole Byer]

And so did the movie that he did with Scarlett Johansson that also looked.

[Nava Gavlin]

Fly me to the Moon.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes. Like, what? And I was like, whatever. But then I watched it, and I was like, oh, my God. So it's based on this man who had a family, got arrested, his family cuts him off. He goes to prison. He escapes from prison, finds a whole new family. But you root for him, and you're like, oh, my God. I want him to be happy with his new family. And he's, like, doing crimes and stuff, and he lives in a Toys R Us for, like, six Months.

[Nava Gavlin]

So he's also, like, a loser.

[Nicole Byer]

Well, he's on the run.

[Nava Gavlin]

Ah.

[Nicole Byer]

So. I don't know. Loser?

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I mean, yes. I'm rooting for this bad man. And I'm like, don't call him a loser. Just. He lived in a Toys R Us for six months. Yeah. And then at the end, they, like, interview people who he, like, robbed. Like, some people who worked at, like, a McDonald's. He robbed the officers who arrested him. The woman he dated. And the woman he dated was like.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I asked my daughter if she remembered anything bad about him. No, he was great. Oh, man.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

He came into the McDonald's and took our money, but he put us in the refrigerator, and he made us wear our coats to keep warm. And then the officer was like, everyone thinks he's so nice. Cause he donated toys to a toy drive, but they were stolen.

[Nava Gavlin]

And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. That's pretty nice. That's hilarious.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. Joe Goldberg, obviously, everyone obsessed with him. But that one was crazy because people. It was, like, spilling out into real life where people were attacking the actresses. Like, in this season. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. The actress takes him down. She's the first one to do it. The amount of hate that Madelyn Brewer got in real life, it's like, okay, if you want to root for Joe, but why are. It's like, next level insanity.

[Nicole Byer]

The actor and, like, people were upset.

[Nava Gavlin]

That she took him down, and so they were, like, attacking the actor. Like, they were literally, like, spewing hate towards Madeline. This is insane. That's unhinged.

[Nicole Byer]

Wild.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

I never. I just. I'm not that person who's like, oh, I have to tell that person.

[Nava Gavlin]

I don't like to do DMs.

[Nicole Byer]

No. I'll say it amongst friends. I'll be like, oh, I didn't like that. I also really enjoyed that she took him down at the end because you got to see how vicious he was.

[Nava Gavlin]

Totally. Yeah. Also that. And they showed how vicious he was by the end. And you're still rooting for him.

[Nicole Byer]

Yes. That I think, is like, you gotta work on that. Cause I watched it, and I was like, oh, man.

[Nava Gavlin]

Joe, don't do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At some point, you have to be like, Joe. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Did you get inside scoops before they.

[Nava Gavlin]

Were shooting from Pen? Yes. Sometimes I didn't even want them. I at some point had to tell Pen, like, I am a fan of the show. Stop spoiling.

[Nicole Byer]

Stop calling me.

[Nava Gavlin]

So in the first season. Yeah. You know the worst one? I feel like in season two, the biggest plot twist is that. Spoiler, spoiler, spoiler. Lev is also a killer. Yes. That's a huge deal. It would have been pulled off really well. Pen very casually told me. He's like, oh, yeah, I just met Victoria Pedretti. She's gonna play this character who's secretly a killer. And I'm like, did you just. Is that like a small character? Yes.

[Nicole Byer]

Ruined.

[Nava Gavlin]

He ruined it. Ruined.

[Nicole Byer]

A delightful, delicious twist.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. So after that, we had to have conversations, like, you are not allowed to spoil it for me.

[Nicole Byer]

How did the three of you meet to create your podcast?

[Nava Gavlin]

So Sophie and I briefly met in China. We both lived in China. And I was like, I knew her parents better, and I, like, sometimes would go to her House. Sophie's 10 years younger than me, so I met her when she was in high school. Anyway. Park that. And then she moved to New York. I moved to New York. We both ended up in Brooklyn, and I, like, briefly lived with her older sister, and we sort of, like, reconnected that way. And then Penn and I. Penn was doing a program called the Junior Youth Spiritual Empowerment Program. It was like an after school program. And he and my roommate were facilitating it together. So he would come over to our place to, like, lesson plan, essentially with my roommate Martha. So we met that way. And I was working at the un. I was a researcher and writer. And one of my areas of research is, like, the impact of media on women and girls of color. And that research is devastating. It's like some of the most saddening things you could possibly read.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah, like what?

[Nava Gavlin]

It's like from three years old, brown and black girls are sexualized more so than white girls. I mean, it's devastating for all women, but it's particularly the way that black girls and brown girls are portrayed. It was shocking. And it's all over the world because it's the U.N. so in some countries, it's even worse than the U.S. what's happening? But yeah, it was just the sexualization of girls from a very young age or the infantilization of girls. And then even pornography. People don't talk about it, but the rise of pornography and the people getting younger and younger when they watch it means that a lot of young girls first sexual experience is really violent, which people don't talk about. And I had to do some of that research.

[Nicole Byer]

That's tough.

[Nava Gavlin]

It's like boys choking girls, and they don't know what they're doing, so they can really hurt them.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

And it's like 14 year olds choking each other.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

People are having sex older, but they're having sex more violently. Anyway, it was a lot of stuff like that. So it was heavy research. And I was sharing some of it with Hen for some reason, and he was thinking of starting a production company. And then one thing led to another and we started it together. And then we brought Sophie in for the podcast because she was doing animations at the time. For a very brief period of time, we thought our podcast would have animated stories. It was too much work. We let that go, but we kept Sophie.

[Nicole Byer]

It is funny when you start a podcast and you're like, I'm gonna do all these.

[Nava Gavlin]

We're gonna animate a story every episode.

[Nicole Byer]

It's like, oh, wait, this is gonna take some time. And. Yeah, that's a lot.

[Nava Gavlin]

Resources. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

And how long have you been doing the podcast?

[Nava Gavlin]

We've been doing it since 2020. Oh, okay.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah. And do you have any, like, episodes, like an episode that you like the most that you're like, this is the one you should start with.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's a great question. Conan o', Brien, I think, is a great. He's just so funny. So he really delivers. I think that's a really good starter one. And then Ariana Grande, she's so famous. So if you want our most famous guest. But she was also a really generous guest. She spent a lot of time with us. She spent like four hours with us.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, my God.

[Nava Gavlin]

We actually made it two parts and she was really open. And so. Yeah, those are two. I feel like a lot of episodes are really good. You and Sasheer have a really funny one. And we don't do two people very often, so that's like a treat when we do that.

[Nicole Byer]

That was fun. Sasheer is a person who. It's just easy that. That's one. She's like a great person. But then it's just like so easy to. We have like a good ebb and flow. Like, I feel like sometimes you'll listen to duos who, like, talk over one another or trying to, like, one up each other.

[Nava Gavlin]

No, you guys aren't like that at all. Nope.

[Nicole Byer]

I'm very much like, if she's being funny, I'mma let her be funny.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, yeah. No, you guys have a great dynamic.

[Nicole Byer]

Thank you. We were once in a pitch and she said something so amazing. I looked at her and I was like, whoa, that was great. And I was like, oh, no. We were supposed to practice this. And this is Supposed to be. This is supposed to be professional. I can't believe I just did that. And I was like, there's no coming back from that.

[Nava Gavlin]

That's so funny.

[Nicole Byer]

But that's what you get working with me. Do you have any advice for single people?

[Nava Gavlin]

I feel like I need advice. I feel like single people. No, not single people. People in relationships. Reach out to me and give me your advice. But if I were really thinking about it, I think, put yourself out there. Don't be afraid of failure. Like, it's not really a failure. Whatever you're thinking that is. But even if the worst case happens, keep going. Because I feel like taking too much time off, which is something that I've done. It makes you, like. It's like a muscle. You have to use it. It actually makes you more scared, and it makes it harder to take risks. So if you can be like. If you can have a sense of humor about it, not take it so seriously, I think it becomes easier. So have a sense of humor about all the mishaps and don't take long break breaks from dating. That would be my advice.

[Nicole Byer]

I think that's good advice. I think having a sense of humor about it is so essential because the goofiest shit happens. And you're like, I can't believe that happened. And it's like, you can't just get upset about it. You gotta just. Have you ever been set up?

[Nava Gavlin]

Yes, but not successfully.

[Nicole Byer]

I. No one has ever set me up. And I mean, now I'm fine, but, like, for a minute.

[Nava Gavlin]

What's going on, guys?

[Nicole Byer]

These friends of mine are not real friends.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. Well, do you have advice for me?

[Nicole Byer]

This is unfortunate, because I think you're incredible. I think you're, like. You're articulate. You're very. It seems like you're very firm in who you are. And I'm just like, I don't know. I feel calm. I don't know, because I think you're great.

[Nava Gavlin]

Thank you.

[Nicole Byer]

So. And unfortunately, the demographic of this show's gay men and women.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah. Same as our show. Same as our show. I thought I was like, maybe when I have a podcast, like, men will, like, slip into my DMs. I've had several gay women slide into my DMs, and I'm like, I wish it. Just like, I honestly wish that I loved women that way because I feel like I'd be much more successful. Yeah.

[Nicole Byer]

Yeah.

[Nava Gavlin]

So to all the gay men and women watching, if you have a great friend. If you have a friend, send them My way.

[Nicole Byer]

And what's your Instagram?

[Nava Gavlin]

Nnnava Ava with three NS.

[Nicole Byer]

Slide into those DMs.

[Nava Gavlin]

Get in there.

[Nicole Byer]

Do you have anything you wanna promote?

[Nava Gavlin]

Yes. So in addition to my podcast Pod Crushed, I co authored a book called Crush More and it's available now. And I've heard from several people that they like the audiobook the most. So maybe check out the audiobook. It's on Audible, Spotify.

[Nicole Byer]

I will say this, if you have adhd, the book is essays. One of the easiest entries into like reading again is essays.

[Nava Gavlin]

It's true. And you can jump around.

[Nicole Byer]

And that's what I was doing. I was like, having a lot of fun jumping around, being like, ooh, what about this? Ooh, okay. And now it's just in my living room. And when I'm like, ugh, I've had too much fun or had too much tv, I'll read an essay.

[Nava Gavlin]

I love that. Thank you for reading it.

[Nicole Byer]

Of course. Well, that's it. If you like. Oh, wait, would you date me? Look, I remember you.

[Nava Gavlin]

Well, given my caveat about loving women, that aside, I would totally date you. You're such a catch. Thank you.

[Nicole Byer]

I would date you. I truly think you're wonderful. If you like this episode of why won't you date me? You could like it, you could rate it, you could subscribe, give me 5 stars on Apple podcasts. And if you write me something to why won't you date me? Podcastmail.com hitting on me. Something nasty. I'll read it. This person says, hey, Nikki. Interesting. Very few people call me Nikki. I wish your salad was left on my door. They ordered a salad and it was delivered to the wrong house. And I said to Postmates. I was like, what am I supposed to do? Wander around the neighborhood screaming, where's my salad? I would call you up and tell you how I could get you sloppy, soppy, wet and soggy, lather you up in dressing and gobble you up. He he he he. Parks casino audience member circa. That's really funny to say that. You're in the audience of a show I did five years ago. Well, I hope you like it.

[Nava Gavlin]

You left an impression, Nicole.

[Nicole Byer]

I guess so. And a casino show at that. Those shows are tough, okay? Everyone's just shit faced.

[Nava Gavlin]

Yeah, I can't imagine.

[Nicole Byer]

And they're like, when do I get to go back to gambling? Yeah. Bye.

[Nava Gavlin]

Bye.

[Nicole Byer]

Oh, you've been listening to why won't you date me with me? Nicole Byers. This show is produced and edited by Mars with executive producer Anya Kanovskaya. It's engineered by Casey Donahue with guest research by Lindsay Kempf. Our VP of content at Headgum is Katie Moose. And our thief music is arranged by Mike Comate. Ah, thanks for listening. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. See you then. Okay, Bye. Bye. That was a HitGam podcast.