Shania Twain

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin: Shania Twain (July 30, 2026)

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Episode Overview

In this intimate and candid episode of Wild Card, host Rachel Martin sits down with superstar Shania Twain, delving into her childhood, struggles with family trauma, music career, evolving sense of self, and philosophies on destiny and forgiveness. Known for her resilience and optimism, Shania shares untold stories about growing up in rural Canada, coping with loss, her complicated family dynamic, career trajectory, and embracing change. The card-driven format brings forth raw reflection and memorable storytelling, making this a moving portrait of an artist defined by grit, self-invention, and grace.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Predestination and Destiny

• Timestamps: [00:18], [39:34], [43:37]
• Shania opens by reflecting that her musical path feels predestined, even though being a performer wasn’t her childhood dream.
  • “I think I was definitely destined to be an artist performer on a very big scale. Was destined is because it would not have been my choice as a child.” — Shania, [00:22]/[39:42]
• Rachel probes her feelings about fate versus agency; Shania credits resilience and a “fighter spirit” for surviving a “crooked ass course” to stardom.
• Notable adversity: parents’ deaths, raising siblings, career setbacks, illness, and public heartbreak.

2. Childhood Pride and Safe Spaces

• Timestamps: [01:28], [04:48], [05:46]
• Shania recalls her first proud moment — learning to drive for her family's tree-planting business at age 10, participating in her Ojibwe family’s traditions.
• Her safe space as a child was always nature: "Where I would go when I wanted to feel safe was out in the wilderness. That’s my happy place.” — Shania, [04:52]
• She describes late-night drives with her father, hunting by moose-eye-shine, and feeling at peace by rivers, especially amidst family turmoil.

3. Family Trauma and Survival

• Timestamps: [06:03], [07:49], [11:09], [12:16]
• Shania speaks openly about domestic violence in her home, physical abuse, poverty, and parental breakdowns.
  • “Both my parents were pretty harsh physically…they got violent often...but they hurt each other the most.” — Shania, [06:25]
• She became a caretaker for siblings early: “You had to step up in that kind of maternal role very early.” — Rachel, [07:26]
• The family’s cycles of leaving/reuniting, time in a women’s shelter (which ‘re-educated’ her mother), and the revelation that her parents ultimately ceased physical violence before dying together in an accident.
• “It’s the craziest. I always thought they would kill each other. And then they end up dying together in a crash.” — Shania, [12:16]

4. Making Lemonade: Optimism and Resilience

• Timestamps: [13:59], [16:40], [27:34]
• A pivotal influence: her pragmatic, optimistic friend Patti Lou — “Pack your own parachute and…make lemonade out of lemons.”
• This echoes Shania’s worldview: self-reliance paired with optimism, gratitude for hardship.
  • “Independent thinking is the most crucial gift you can give yourself. It’s everything...You have to make brave choices.” — Shania, [16:16]
• She connects this mindset to her recovery from illness and career setbacks.

5. Music and Looking Back: The 'Little Miss Twain' Album

• Timestamps: [18:39], [19:15], [21:48], [24:27]
• The new album reflects on her origins and childhood dreams.
• Her mother’s ambition drove Shania into singing in bars as a child, even when Shania resisted ("I did not want to get out of bed at midnight to go to the bar...").
• Tracks are rooted in her memories: “Singing about the river, the snow and the winters...the smell of the trees… the environment I grew up in.” — Shania, [21:48]
• Fulfillment: she finally bought herself a horse at 30, realizing her own childhood dream alongside her mother’s vision.

6. Voice, Illness, and Acceptance

• Timestamps: [24:44], [25:34], [26:36]
• Shania discusses losing her voice due to Lyme disease, needing two throat surgeries, and relearning to sing with Gore-Tex crutches in her throat.
  • “When I sing now, it’s got more body and just texture… character…it’s lived.” — Shania, [26:11]
• She embraces the changes and views the challenge as “making lemonade” from adversity.

7. Lessons on Love, Control, and Change

• Timestamps: [27:58], [28:01], [29:48], [33:43], [47:23]
• Aging has taught her to love herself honestly and “enjoy who you are right now.”
• She’s learned to delegate and set boundaries, especially creatively: “I like to set my boundaries of what’s my zone…Let’s be a team and work from there.” — Shania, [31:18]
• On songwriting and career control, she describes gradually earning creative authority as her self-confidence matched her experience.
• She views the betrayal and end of her first marriage as both devastation and a blessing, as it eventually brought her to her new partner.
  • “We were pushed out of a moving bus by our ex-spouses. And...we landed in each other’s arms.” — Shania, [35:29]

8. Philosophy on Aging and Imagination

• Timestamps: [44:11], [44:24], [45:26]
• Shania projects living to 200, not out of fantasy but to inspire herself to experience life fully and avoid urgency:
  • “I want to do whatever it is I want to do… with quality. I want to absorb it…I want to live like life with urgency.” — Shania, [45:26]
• Her imagination has always been her “medicine, escape, joy, mood, energy.”

9. Can People Change? Forgiveness

• Timestamps: [46:44], [49:13]
• Absolute belief that people can change—her parents did; she has.
• Forgiveness becomes possible when genuine change is shown: “The heart doesn’t want to be angry… it gravitates to positive change.”

10. Memory Lane Finale

• Timestamp: [49:29]
• If she could revisit any moment, it would be the experience of pregnancy, especially being complimented on her beauty while shopping in Milan at seven months: “I loved being pregnant. Felt good, felt strong, and I enjoyed it.” — Shania, [50:42]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On survival:
  “Survival is up to you.” — Shania, [16:16]
• On her unique upbringing:
  “My brothers were younger, so I was the only girl that was really interested in nature and being out in the wilderness... I was kind of like the boy in the family.” — Shania, [04:16]
• On adversity in music:
  “I did not want to get out of bed at midnight to go to the bar, because that was the only legal time I could go in to perform.” — Shania, [22:51]
• On creative leadership:
  “As soon as I’d made that first video that was my own, I was right in that first video and I was co-directing… picking my own team… now you’re good to delegate because you’ve chosen them for what they do.” — Shania, [32:04]
• On love after betrayal:
  “We were pushed out of a moving bus by our ex-spouses. And we tumbled for quite a long time… and then we just… landed in each other’s arms.” — Shania, [35:29]
• On aging and self-acceptance:
  “Love yourself the way you are and then leave the rest to fashion and makeup… you have to love yourself naked.” — Shania, [29:48]
• On forgiveness:
  “It’s so much easier to let go. It just feels so much better when you can let go.” — Shania, [48:20]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Predestination / Destiny: [00:18], [39:34], [43:37]
• Childhood pride & safe spaces: [01:28], [04:48]
• Family trauma & survival: [06:03]–[13:34]
• Making lemonade out of adversity: [13:59], [16:16]
• New album ('Little Miss Twain') / Childhood in song: [18:39], [21:48]
• Voice & illness recovery: [24:44], [26:36]
• Love, betrayal, and new beginnings: [33:43], [35:29]
• Philosophy on time, aging, imagination: [44:11]–[46:37]
• People can change / forgiveness: [46:44], [48:20]
• Favorite memory: [49:29]

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Episode Tone and Language

• The conversation is heartfelt, at times raw and vulnerable, balanced by humor and Shania’s steadfast optimism.
• Shania speaks with candor about pain but always finds a positive spin—“making lemonade” is a recurring phrase.
• Rachel Martin guides the discussion with sensitivity and admiration, encouraging deep, personal reflection.

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Summary Takeaways

This episode is a moving masterclass in perseverance, hope, and reinvention—Shania Twain embodies how hardship, resilience, and a little imagination can not only carry you through but push you toward joy. Whether describing years spent caretaking siblings, surviving domestic violence, reinventing her voice, or falling in love after profound betrayal, her stories inspire listeners to find strength and gratitude no matter how "crooked" the journey.

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For fans of honest storytelling, creative resilience, and the power of memory, this is an essential listen.

Transcript

[NPR Announcer]

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[Rachel Martin]

is there anything in your life that has felt predestined?

[Shania Twain]

I think I was definitely destined to be an artist performer on a very big scale. Was destined is because it would not have been my choice as a child.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wildcard, the show where cards control the conversation. It is tempting to look to the past to introduce Shania Twain back to her huge breakout album, come on over in 1997 with songs like man, I feel like a woman and you're still the one. That album turned her into one of country music's biggest stars. But looking back just doesn't feel right for an artist who to me has been defined by her ability to overcome all kinds of loss and keep moving

[Shania Twain]

forward on our own terms.

[Rachel Martin]

Her new album is called Little Miss Twain and I am so very happy to welcome Shania Twain to Wildcard.

[Shania Twain]

Hello. This is fun. Let's play.

[Rachel Martin]

First round is memories. Shania, I'm gonna hold up three cards. You pick randomly. Okay. One, two or three.

[Shania Twain]

We'll go with two.

[Rachel Martin]

Two. What was a moment when you felt proud of yourself as a kid?

[Shania Twain]

I would say that when I learned how to drive.

[Rachel Martin]

Really?

[Shania Twain]

Yep. Because I worked with my dad and I was his little helper and I learned how to drive the back roads at 10 years old. And he was.

[Rachel Martin]

Did he have a logging business? No.

[Shania Twain]

Tree planting.

[Rachel Martin]

Tree planting.

[Shania Twain]

The other way around.

[Rachel Martin]

It was tree adjacent. That's right. Tree planting. The better version of planting the trees.

[Shania Twain]

We were planting the trees. I was very proud of myself to be able to manage to drive. Yeah. And it's a powerful machine. It's a lot of responsibility.

[Rachel Martin]

Right.

[Shania Twain]

And you're working, you're helping out, you're contributing. You're, you know, you feel grown up.

[Rachel Martin]

What did it look like? Was it very foresty where you grew up?

[Shania Twain]

Oh, very, very dense forest where I grew up in northern Ontario. Very dense, dense. Mostly spruce and pine trees. Like mostly evergreens. Yeah. And the dirt roads were our working roads. And also, you know, we hunted a lot. So if I was driving, then my dad could, you know, look out for moose. And especially at night, that was.

[Rachel Martin]

Did you do that at night?

[Shania Twain]

Often at night. Because you can see the eyes and. Yeah. So I would drive and he would scout.

[Rachel Martin]

Did you help, like bring the animal in and carry it in the back of the truck?

[Shania Twain]

Yeah. I mean, I come from a hunting, fishing family, and I learned all about all of that sort of stuff. Did you? And now I'm a vegetarian. What do you know?

[Rachel Martin]

Are the two related?

[Shania Twain]

No, but it's just. It's funny how life evolves and how you go from being really. You're living in your parents world, in your parents life, your family's culture and traditions, to evolving into your own person,

[Rachel Martin]

so making your own choices.

[Shania Twain]

Yeah, but. Yeah, so we did a lot of that. My dad. I was adopted into a native family and.

[Rachel Martin]

Ojibwe.

[Shania Twain]

Yep. Ojibwe. Yep. So they were able to, you know, hunt off season and I guess subsequently in the dark.

[Rachel Martin]

Are those fond memories for you?

[Shania Twain]

Yeah, they are fond memories. You know, I was. I felt quite, you know, I was. My brothers were younger, so I was the only girl that was really interested in nature and being out in the wilderness. And so I was kind of like the boy in the family, you know, the one that was old enough to. To help my dad.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, we're gonna move to the next three. 12 or 31 1.

[Shania Twain]

Okay, that was easy.

[Rachel Martin]

Where would you go when you wanted to feel safe as a kid?

[Shania Twain]

Where I would go when I wanted to feel safe was out in the wilderness. That's my happy place. Nature out in nature. Down by the river, down by the lake, under the trees.

[Rachel Martin]

Was there a particular place?

[Shania Twain]

Do you remember if it was nighttime? I would just go behind the house where the bushes were there and sit there with my guitar and just in the dark and everything was. Our backyards are very bushy. They're very woodsy, and lots of trees and they're very wild. So I would just sit out there. But, you know, most of the time I would find a river. That was my. I was always happiest when I was near the river.

[Rachel Martin]

And I mean, you have talked before about your family. Your family's complicated. You've had a lot of loss. Your parents died in a car accident in 87 when you were only 22. But even growing up, I mean, it wasn't necessarily a safe place all the time. Shania.

[Shania Twain]

Yeah, my parents had a very volatile relationship. They loved each other. They were. They went through so many ups and downs together, but they fought a lot and they got violent often. So.

[Rachel Martin]

With you ever.

[Shania Twain]

Yeah, with me too. If I was standing in the wrong place at the wrong time, definitely. I mean, both my parents were pretty harsh Physically. And, yeah, we definitely got smacked around a lot and kicked around, sometimes literally kicked around. But they hurt each other the most. It was very violent. So my mom, you know, she would lose clumps of hair. She was bruised, often in the face. And, yeah, it was pretty bad sometimes. I mean, that our house would shake, those walls would shake. Mind you, they weren't built very strongly either. But, yeah, it's a very. It's very traumatic. It gets loud and scary, and it's, you know, like a really bad thunderstorm.

[Rachel Martin]

It's a lot of pressure on any young person who is in an abusive home, but especially when you've got younger siblings and your mom, I imagine, a lot of the time just wasn't emotionally capable to just do things like put dinner on the table because things were bad. So you had to step up in that kind of maternal role very early.

[Shania Twain]

Well, there were two sides of the. There was the fact that we were poor and we didn't always have the money to get groceries. Right. So now we're living on, or we're trying to stretch out whatever we've got left. When we ran out of everything else, we could always crumble stale bread and we would freeze milk. So that was good.

[Guest/Caller or Additional Participant]

Okay.

[Shania Twain]

And when we ran out of fresh milk, we would thaw that milk and then we would make what we called goulash, which was. We would boil the milk, pour it over dried bread, and then add, like, a bit of brown sugar. And it was actually really delicious.

[Rachel Martin]

It's like a cereal.

[Shania Twain]

It sort of is.

[Rachel Martin]

It's a carb and it's sugar.

[Shania Twain]

Right. It's a poor man's cereal. Poor man's porridge. As if porridge wasn't already a poor man's food. But you know what? It filled the spot and it tied us over sometimes for, like, days. So that was good. That was a good go to. We were always collecting our stale bread. Never throw out. Never throw out your stale bread. You can always make goulash. Yes. So that was one of the reasons why they would fight, because the tensions would get high. My mother would get, you know, depressed because she couldn't, you know, they weren't providing for us. She would go to bed sometimes for days and just sleep through it. And now we're just sort of fending for ourselves. Or they would just argue over, can't pay the bills, now we're going to run out of heat. And now whose fault is that?

[Rachel Martin]

It's very cold.

[Shania Twain]

Exactly. And it's critical. Right. It gets really, really, really Col,

[Guest/Caller or Additional Participant]

I

[Rachel Martin]

know it's complicated why people stay or go or not, but did she ever try to leave?

[Shania Twain]

Yeah, my mother did often try to leave. She did leave. We did leave. But, you know, he'd always find us or she'd always give in and go back. It was a cycle. They would reach a peak of real dangerous violence. And then, you know, the police would come and to the door. The neighbors would call the cops and they would come and break things up. But that would normally get my mother to go, okay, this is it. We gotta. Like, one of us is gonna die or, you know, so we gotta. We gotta escape. And we would leave when he wasn't around. Otherwise he would have stopped. Stopped her and stopped us. But. And then, you know, once I reached the age of 13, I'm just like, okay, now I've had enough. And I convinced my mom to leave to the city, which was a long drive away. And that way we could hide for a lot longer and hopefully really break this cycle for good. And it did. It worked.

[Rachel Martin]

But forgive me that I don't know this point in your biography, but it seems important. But then somehow they were in a car together when they died.

[Shania Twain]

Right. So we make it through a year and a half and she goes back. But this year and a half was a huge, huge break in both their psyche because we stayed in a sheltered, like, battered woman's shelter. And my mother went through this real. A new education. They re educated her. They. They got her a job. They got us into, like, protected residency where he couldn't find us and really taught her how to not go back safely and to manage on her own with, you know, assistance, of course.

[Guest/Caller or Additional Participant]

Yeah.

[Shania Twain]

And then my dad, at the same time, just, I think, just woke up too. And they did get back together, but they never physically fought again.

[Rachel Martin]

Wow, that is really extraordinary.

[Shania Twain]

It worked. And they ended up working together, building up their business. Not to the point where they could ever buy a new vehicle or anything like that, but they were really doing well. They were feeding us. We were no longer poor. We were just working class. And then they die in a car crash together. It's just the craziest. I always thought they would kill each other. And then they end up dying together in a crash. It's the. It really is hard still for me to get my head around, but, oh, it's so much. It's a movie in itself how these two people. It's like how these two people went through all of this in a very, like, turbulent way.

[Guest/Caller or Additional Participant]

Yeah.

[Shania Twain]

And then work it out. Their stability, and then they die. And then now all those kids are unstable again. All over again. Start from scratch. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

So we started that question with asking about your safe space, the river. I imagine you went there a lot. That's it.

[Shania Twain]

I went to the river a lot. It was so great. And I felt so comfortable and safe. So when you said your safe space, I feel so safe in nature.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Shania Twain]

That's my comfort place.

[Rachel Martin]

Thank you for all that. Last one in this round. 1. 2 or 3? 3.

[Guest/Caller or Additional Participant]

3.

[Rachel Martin]

What's something someone told you that changed your trajectory?

[Shania Twain]

Well, I've always admired people that see the positive side. And I had a friend that was a working mom. She was smart, successful, and hardworking. A great mother. And then prematurely died from a brain aneurysm. And her saying was always, you know, two things. Pack your own parachute and, you know, make lemon out of lemonades and. No, make lemonade out of lemons. How does the saying go? Make lemonade out of lemonade.

[Rachel Martin]

When life hands you lemons, make lemonade.

[Shania Twain]

That's it. Yes. You gotta make the lemonade. And this always appealed to my younger self. And I realized, wow, this is actually without me knowing how to put it into words. When I was a kid, this attitude is what has gotten me through everything without being angry about it and without being resentful and actually being grateful for the bumpy upbringing and the challenges and the hurdles. So that was Patti Lou Pati Lou always said those two things to me when things got tough. And I thought, wow, you are appealing to my own sense of optimism. Right there.

[Rachel Martin]

It is optimistic. It also feels a little bit gritty and realistic. The parachute part, that's.

[Shania Twain]

It's like eliminating yourself.

[Rachel Martin]

Like, find the joy. Find the joy, gratitude, et cetera, and

[Shania Twain]

it's up to you.

[Rachel Martin]

But also be ready to take care of yourself and be ready to jump out of the plane if you need to, if it's safer outside the plane.

[Shania Twain]

Independent thinking is the most crucial gift you can give yourself. It's everything. You have to make independent choices. You have to make brave choices. You cannot rely on somebody else to push you out of the plane. You have. Yes. You know, you have to jump, get ready, because it's up to you. Survival is up to you.

[Rachel Martin]

Isn't it, though?

[Shania Twain]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Isn't it?

[Shania Twain]

Well, I mean, there are a lot of things that are out of our control. And that is where the lemonade comes in.

[Rachel Martin]

Exactly, exactly, exactly. You wash down that sorrow and hardship with a nice cold glass of lemonade.

[Shania Twain]

That's it. That's where the lemonade comes in in.

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[Rachel Martin]

Before we start round two, let's talk about Little Miss Twain. Congratulations.

[Shania Twain]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

I said in the intro that you to me have always seemed like a woman who's you're moving forward like there's a choice. You could situate yourself in the back view mirror, but you don't. You're moving, moving, moving. This album, you're intentionally looking backwards. Is that just kind of where you're situated in your life right now that you feel maybe things are at a point where you can where it's safe and happy and joyful to look back?

[Shania Twain]

I'm just at a point now where there's two reasons why I've written this album. Little Miss Twain. Little Miss Twain is a reflection on the person I still am, but where she started to get to where I am now. And I was 8 years old when I started on the stage.

[Rachel Martin]

So it's just wild, we should say. I mean, your mom was your biggest fan, for better or for worse.

[Shania Twain]

She was my manager, my coach, terrible vocal coach. She Smoked. She was like a chain smoker, and she practically lived on coffee and cigarettes and couldn't hold a tune. But she would always be there to, you know, encourage me and. And push. You know, she took it very seriously. It's like, okay, she was gonna make a professional out of me as early as possible. So I was on the stage, I had audiences. I was a little girl singing adult songs and entertaining adults, mostly intoxicated adults. And that little girl was introduced often because I was the only child in those environments most of the time. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the stage Little Miss Twain. So that's how I was often introduced. And so that is where the title of the song came from. And I was for years putting a lot of my stories, a lot of those stories into music, but never considered making an album with those songs till now. And now is because the collection built up. It was like, wow. I actually have an album's worth of music here that are all themed around the environment I grew up in. And, like, singing about the river, singing about the snow and the winters. And, you know, I come from a gold mining town, and that's what made our town. You know, the gold mining and the woods, the timber, the industry of planting, the trees and the smell of the trees and all of those things. So the album is very descriptive in a lot of ways. And it's a lot of me as a child looking forward into where I want to go as well. It's me, like, dreaming, okay, someday, right, I'm gonna ride horses on a beach. You know, I'm gonna be able to ride and be in the sun.

[Rachel Martin]

But that was the thing that struck me, is that. So you loved horses as a young girl, still probably do. And you had this dream, that's how you fantasized about adulthood, was like riding horses on a beach. But your mom had a very different idea of what your adulthood was, was going to look like, and her dream won out. I mean, you made it, lady. But in the beginning, were you on board with that or were you just like, what am I doing, Mom? I don't want to do this.

[Shania Twain]

Yeah, no, I did not want to

[Rachel Martin]

be in the bars.

[Shania Twain]

When I was eight years old, I did not want to get out of bed at midnight to go to the bar because that was the only legal time I could go in to perform. So I sang in the last, you know, hour or two of the night.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, why was it legal for you to go at midnight?

[Shania Twain]

So when the bars closed, the actual, like, service bar, then I was allowed in and then I would. Yeah, exactly. At the age of 11, I had a proper license to go in legally and sing before the bars closed. So now I'm 11. And I'm a professional, like a bona fide professional. But from 8 to 11, I could only go in after midnight and perform. So it wasn't fun. I mean, I didn't wanna, you know, sing in a smokey bar. It was just, you know, air that you choke on.

[Rachel Martin]

But could you see. Could you see the end that your mom had articulated for you? I mean, it's in the song. I know it's in the song. Lil Ms. Twain, it's so lovely. I mean, honey, you're gonna go far. According to my mother, I'm the next Tanya Tucker. I'm gonna be a star.

[Shania Twain]

Exactly. But. So that's her perspective and her dream. But my mother was always saying, you are talented. You could be the next Tanya Tucker. This is our goal. So come on, honey, push that Chevy. We gotta get to the bar and you gotta get up on that stage and, you know, entertain. Learn how to be an entertainer.

[Rachel Martin]

Right?

[Shania Twain]

And I would be 30 when I had my first top ten hit. So, yeah, at 30 when I had my first top 10 hit, my gift to myself was a horse.

[Rachel Martin]

Ah, good for you.

[Shania Twain]

So see, my dream came true too.

[Rachel Martin]

I wanted to ask you about your voice. I mean, some people will know you've been on a journey with it. It's so powerful. On this album, there are a couple of songs that I'm just like, oh, that's so good. I'd Be Lovin Me. I love that one. I love that track. Thank you. And I wonder how you hear your voice, because it has changed. It's a long story, but basically you got Lyme disease a long time ago, and as a result of that, you had all these voice problems and had to have two throat surgeries. And then you had to take like a decade off of singing and performing while you got it back. And I just wonder now, like, as you make all this new music, how do you hear your voice when you listen back to it?

[Shania Twain]

What I hear is a voice that projects and regardless of its sound. Cause I know, like, ah, I've got this little fry in here. I'm always like, it's always frying out, but. But I don't mind. I've embraced it. And when I sing now, it's got more body and just texture.

[Rachel Martin]

Life, I hear it is. You have, like, more. It's like a reflection of your life.

[Shania Twain]

It is. It is.

[Rachel Martin]

It's got lots of texture, to say the least. Yes.

[Shania Twain]

Yep. It's got a lot of. It's got a lot of. What would you say? Character. Yeah, it's got a lot of character. It's lived and. Yeah. So I have two crutches in there that regulate the induction of the vocal cords, and that is what gives me the stability.

[Rachel Martin]

Truly. There are two things in there that help.

[Shania Twain]

Two Gore Tex crutches.

[Rachel Martin]

Wow.

[Shania Twain]

Yep. Two Gore Tex channels. Yep.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my gosh.

[Shania Twain]

It was tough. Even the physical recovery, because it was.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, I imagine.

[Shania Twain]

Yeah. They literally open your throat. Yeah. And they.

[Rachel Martin]

It's intense.

[Shania Twain]

Push over your larynx, and then they insert one, and then they do the other one. And then while you're open throat. And you have to be awake. No. Yeah. Because you have to. You have to speak and sing and make sounds. Oh, my God. That is crazy. I know it's crazy, but it's like, listen, at least it wasn't my heart. Like, people have to do that when they get a heart. Yes.

[Rachel Martin]

Surgeries. That's true.

[Shania Twain]

So, like, I have to look at things. Listen, this is where I learned. This is where I make lemonade.

[Rachel Martin]

That's right.

[Shania Twain]

Okay. Yeah, we're making it. And making the decision to have the procedure done. It was either that or never sing again. That was the parachute.

[Rachel Martin]

Totally.

[Shania Twain]

That was the jump.

[Rachel Martin]

Next round is insights. Shania. Three new cards. One, two or three. What are you feeling?

[Shania Twain]

1.

[Rachel Martin]

What has age taught you about love?

[Shania Twain]

Oh, well, it's taught me a lot about myself because few more. I actually look in the mirror now all the time. So I was like, the more I age, the more I just look in the mirror because I just got so tired, even in my youth of, like, avoiding the mirror, avoiding looking at myself. And, I mean, when I was younger, I had a killer body. I had great skin, the perfect shape. I had. I had it all. It was all great. It was something to want that I should have been able to look at.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, you sort of do now, if I'm being honest.

[Shania Twain]

Well, now I look at myself and go, you look great. Even if you're older, you look older. Like, don't kid yourself. You look older. Your skin is sagging. You've got little bumps and lumps and dents and shadows, but it's only gonna get worse. So enjoy it right now for the way it looks right now and then evolve with it. I mean, it's like, if I would have done that all along, I wouldn't have been so shocked the day I opened My eyes and went, oh, my gosh, what happened to my body? Like, it's all falling apart. I think just with age, I've learned, grow with yourself, be honest with yourself. Be transparent and face yourself so you don't get shocked.

[Rachel Martin]

So I hear you. The question was, what has age taught you about love? It sounds like your answer to that. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it's about loving yourself.

[Shania Twain]

Love yourself the way you are, and then leave the rest to fashion and makeup and all of that is. You know, the rest is all. That's the fun part. But the love has. You have to be. You have to love yourself naked.

[Rachel Martin]

Next.

[Shania Twain]

Three. Three.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two, or three.

[Shania Twain]

Oh, three. You got it.

[Rachel Martin]

You know Shania Twain, Are you good at releasing control?

[Shania Twain]

I'm very good at releasing control. I love delegating. Yep, yep. I love to delegate. Now, I like to set my boundaries of what's my zone? Like, the kitchen.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay.

[Shania Twain]

I go, okay. Nobody comes past this point or this point. This is my little work zone, and this is the part I'm gonna do. And everybody else can contribute. We can all play together. We can all cook together. And I'm not gonna helicopter over how you chop the onions. And I'm like. I'm not gonna, like, micromanage the way you peel the potatoes, but there's a zone, and there's a part that I've gotta do myself.

[Rachel Martin]

What, in the songwriting, in the crux of your work as a creative person, what is your zone that you're like, this is mine. Don't. I will take your opinion and your contributions all over here, but right here is me. Like, what is your kitchen?

[Shania Twain]

For me, as a songwriter especially, or in any creative element, I already have a vision when I walk into something, and whether it's melody, lyrics, just the direction of something. Otherwise, let's play. Let's be a team and work from there, you know? So did that take a while?

[Rachel Martin]

Like, when you were coming up, were there a lot of cooks in your kitchen? To extend the metaphor, like, did a lot of people want to create you? I mean, you had proven yourself. But then I imagine you get up and record labels and executives and everyone's got an opinion about Shania Twain. Now,

[Shania Twain]

I got signed in my late 20s, so as I was a kid on stage, from the age of 8 years old and writing all those years, I was pretty established in my skills as a writer and as a performer. So it didn't take long. It was really the first, very first album. Shania Twain. I didn't impose my own vision too much. I already understood with that maturity that in my late 20s, that, okay, you're new in town. You gotta be smart about this. You can't just get kicked out of town by being a control freak, right? But as soon as I'd made that first video that was my own, I was right in that first video and I was co directing that video and I styled it myself. And the label's like, okay, here's more control. And before I knew it, I was picking my own team. And so when you pick your own team, now you're choosing people that you trust and whose talent that you admire. And now you're good to delegate because you've chosen them for what they do.

[Rachel Martin]

Last one in this round. 1, 2 or 3?

[Shania Twain]

1. 1.

[Rachel Martin]

What was a disappointing experience that now feels like a blessing.

[Shania Twain]

Okay, a disappointing experience was. The letdown in my marriage. And the blessing was my new husband, my new love.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, yeah, that's a big one.

[Shania Twain]

Yeah. Because I went from the reason it's a blessing more than anything, and it's not, you know, not to. The men were important in those roles of this lesson and this blessing. But more importantly, I said to myself, never love again. No way. No more men, no more love. Just focus on being a mom. That's all you need to be as a mom.

[Rachel Martin]

And

[Shania Twain]

allowing myself to go from allowing myself the prerogative to change my heart and my mind and recognize that there was an opportunity for love that if I was an idiot, I would ignore by being stubborn.

[Rachel Martin]

We have to give some context to people who don't know the story. You're. How do we say?

[Shania Twain]

Well, so I could say, so my best friend and my ex husband cheated on me together. And yeah, I guess it's.

[Rachel Martin]

They all got together.

[Shania Twain]

Ultimately.

[Rachel Martin]

She got divorced from her husband.

[Shania Twain]

She got divorced from her husband. So that was the double blessing. So her husband and I were pushed out of the bus. I always say it this way. We were pushed out of a moving bus by our ex spouses. And we tumbled for quite a long time, getting bumped around. And then we just. When we stopped rolling, we landed in each other's arms and it was like, wow, well, that's behind us. We have each other. We understand each other. Let's brush each other off and move on with this wonderful new recognition of who each other is.

[Rachel Martin]

Hmm. What a surprise. What a lovely plot twist.

[Shania Twain]

Well, especially because, you know, sometimes, you know, you hear a lot of stories in life where, you know, you've maybe grown up with somebody or you worked with somebody or you were neighbors and you know, you. But for years you were in each other's life, but not you didn't really know each other and you didn't see each other as someone that would be a partner.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Shania Twain]

Right. You just saw them as your good neighbor. You just saw them as your.

[Rachel Martin]

Because you weren't looking. You weren't looking.

[Shania Twain]

We weren't looking. We were faithful. We weren't looking. So when we came out of this tumble, this very rough tumble, it's sort of like you look at that person now and you're going, wow, you were there all this time and I didn't even see you. It's that thing. It's like the person that was there the whole time. Yeah. And that you just didn't see as a love. So it was so wonderful. So that's the blessing.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my gosh, That's a great disappointment.

[Shania Twain]

Blessing story, isn't it?

[Rachel Martin]

I'm sorry. Well, it's just awful what happened, but I'm so glad.

[Guest/Caller or Additional Participant]

Right.

[Shania Twain]

Like, who kicks you off your own bus?

[Rachel Martin]

Yes,

[Shania Twain]

that's it. Right. It's like we started on the bus as four, you know what I'm saying? And then we got kicked off the bus while I was still moving. And yeah, but we landed. It was a shit landing, but that's how we found each other. Foreign.

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[Guest/Caller or Additional Participant]

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[Rachel Martin]

Okay, last round. Beliefs. 1, 2 or 3?

[Shania Twain]

2.

[Rachel Martin]

2. Is there anything in your life that has felt predestined? Is that an idea that resonates with you?

[Shania Twain]

Yes, it does. I think I was definitely destined to be a. An artist, performer on a very big scale. And why I say I was destined is because it would not have been my choice as a child. That wasn't the goal. I just wanted to make music in my bedroom. I didn't want to get on a stage, you know, I didn't want to, you know, get up in front of people and do it. I just wanted to do it for the love of it, the passion of it.

[Rachel Martin]

You famously have stage fright.

[Shania Twain]

Exactly. I was. I had so much stage fright all of my life until I won the fight with my voice and the Lyme disease. Then I'm like, huh, New appreciation.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, but it wasn't necessarily your dream and there were all these odds stacked against you, so it feels like there was some.

[Shania Twain]

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm like design. I'm like, mom, you've got a great plan. I know you see my talents and you think I'm gonna be a star, but no one's ever gonna discover me where we are we. I mean, no one's coming. No one's coming to discover me in Timmins, Ontario, in this bar. So in my child mind, I'm thinking, you know, can I just be a songwriter? Do I have to be in the spotlight? Do I have to be in front of so many people?

[Rachel Martin]

So.

[Shania Twain]

But you know what, no matter what you think and no matter what you, you know, imagine that you were born for, destiny is set, really. So I believe that. So you do. My belief is your destiny is set. And unless you go out to crystal ball, you're not going to know what it is. And the only difference between where you are in the beginning and where you end up serving your destiny is how you get there. That's it. So I was so afraid of where it was going or where my mother wanted it to go that I'm telling you, man, I took the. I'm like struggling the whole way to getting there, and then, you know, and so many things happen along the way. You know, my parents die along the way, and then I've got the kids for a few years and then now I'm, you know, that's now making the road longer and I start getting some breaks. But then this divorce and then I lose my voice and it's just. It couldn't have been a more crooked journey to reach the destiny and. But it was destiny and that was, you know, I could have given up anywhere along the way.

[Rachel Martin]

Right. There was a lot of your own agency involved. I mean, you worked really hard and you kept trying.

[Shania Twain]

But I believe I was born. That's why I believe in destiny. Because I must have been born for me to have reached this destiny. I had to have been born with some kind of fighter spirit and some sort of not combative because I'm not a combative person. But I just had a resilience that kept me on this crooked ass course. This long and winding road. One of my favorite songs, by the way. Okay, I feel like we covered a

[Rachel Martin]

lot of ground in that one.

[Shania Twain]

Let's keep going.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two or three?

[Shania Twain]

Let's go for three.

[Rachel Martin]

What are you looking forward to when you're older?

[Shania Twain]

Well, older.

[Rachel Martin]

You can define what that means exactly 20 years from now, tomorrow.

[Shania Twain]

20 years. No, I want to live till to be 200.

[Rachel Martin]

200?

[Shania Twain]

Yeah. I don't care how unrealistic that is. That's.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, but 200 just seems like a long time.

[Shania Twain]

No, no, but there's so much to do.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I know. Yeah. There's more life to be lived. Yeah.

[Shania Twain]

I would rather project longevity and imagine that whatever it is that I want to do next or accomplish doesn't have to be rushed. So if I only think, oh well, I'm only going to live to be 80, if that's my projection, well then I better hurry friggin up because I've got so much to do. Yeah, I gotta like I'm never gonna absorb it. I'm not gonna live in the moment with it and I'm gonna be rushing through it and I don't want to live like life with urgency. Right.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh my God, I hear you so much on that. Yeah.

[Shania Twain]

So I wanna do whatever it is I wanna do. I wanna do it with quality. I wanna absorb it, I wanna enjoy it. I want to make so much more music, different kinds of music. I want to ride more horses and you know, there's so many things to do. I want to design, I love design. And I can't do all of it in just 20 years.

[Rachel Martin]

200 years.

[Shania Twain]

Exactly. I love it.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm all for it. I'm all for it.

[Shania Twain]

Let's meet again. Let's meet again exactly 100 years from now. Right.

[Rachel Martin]

Let's see.

[Shania Twain]

You gotta use your imagination. This is what I do for a living. This is what I've done since I was a small child. My Imagination is my medicine. It's my escape, it's my joy, it's my mood, it's my energy. So, you know, in my imagination, I'm going to live to be 200, and I'm going to achieve all these incredible things.

[Rachel Martin]

Last question. One. Two or three?

[Shania Twain]

One. One.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, this is interesting. We've sort of touched on this, but I'm going to ask it because that's what's on the card. Do you think people can actually change?

[Shania Twain]

I think people can change, yes, Absolutely. My parents, they changed. They went from beating the crap out of each other to near death, and there was a, you know, reshaping of their mindsets, and then they never beat each other again. That's change.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, for sure.

[Shania Twain]

You know, I went to being afraid to leave the house, to leave the kids alone with my parents sometimes, to finally being able to move out of the house and get on with my life. Mm, not for long, because then they died, and then I. You know. But, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

When people who've hurt you change, does it make it easier to forgive?

[Shania Twain]

Yes. When people change or they show the ability and the promise to change, it is so much easier to. You know, the heart wants to. And the heart doesn't want to be angry. The heart is miserable angry. It just. It wants to. So it gravitates to positive change. And mine, I definitely do.

[Guest/Caller or Additional Participant]

Yeah.

[Shania Twain]

I'm not a pushover by any means, but I like to believe in the good in people, and I'd rather be vulnerable a little bit than. And, you know, I'd rather have a malleable heart than, you know, live defensively all the time, which is the tendency, when you get hurt, to be cautious. But, you know, it's so much easier to let go. It just feels so much better when you can let go. It's not always easy, but it's a better choice.

[Rachel Martin]

We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. So in the time machine, you pick one moment from your past to revisit. It's not a moment you want to change anything about. It's just a moment you'd like to linger in a little longer. Which moment do you choose?

[Shania Twain]

Pregnancy. I loved being pregnant.

[Rachel Martin]

The whole thing. The whole nine months.

[Shania Twain]

I loved it from beginning to end.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you remember a moment of being pregnant? Of maybe trying on a dress or feeling your baby or some moment when you felt really good that you'd like to linger in that moment?

[Shania Twain]

You mean like a singular, like, isolated moment? Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I remember.

[Shania Twain]

I was In Milan. And I was just walking down the street shopping for baby things, enjoying all of that. And that day, and I must have been about seven months pregnant. I got so many compliments by all of these Italians about how beautiful of a pregnant woman I was. I'm thinking, I love this. I love being pregnant. It was awesome. I was worried about getting the waddle walk. You know, my sister was always like, oh, you're gonna walk like a penguin. You just wait. Never happened.

[Rachel Martin]

You felt good.

[Shania Twain]

Felt good, felt strong, and I enjoyed it. Yep.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, the Italians know when they see something beautiful.

[Shania Twain]

When the Italians see. Yeah. Okay. I never thought I'd be complimented for these curves.

[Rachel Martin]

And then you had a baby boy.

[Shania Twain]

And then a baby boy. The only downer about that was once I knew I was having a boy, now the shopping was boy clothes. How many cute pairs of totally, you know, infant denim jumpsuit?

[Rachel Martin]

I know, man. I'm the mother of two boys.

[Shania Twain]

I know. They're just not cute. So all the, like, really frilly, fancy stuff was out. But that's okay. I had a lot of fun.

[Rachel Martin]

Shania Twain. Her newest album is called Little Miss Twain. Shania Twain. My God, this was just so exciting for me. Thank you for doing it.

[Shania Twain]

Thank you. It was fun.

[Rachel Martin]

If you'd like to watch this episode or any of our other interviews, you can do so by checking out our YouTube page. Just search for NPR Wildcard. There you'll find video versions, versions of all of our episodes. And if you were really into this episode with Shania, may I humbly suggest that you go check out my conversation with Amy Grant. Both women are at that stage in life when they're looking back at their careers with a certain amount of nostalgia. But they are not at all lost in it. In fact, they're feeling more creative than ever. This episode was produced by Mitra Arthur and Summer Tamad. It was edited by Dave Blanchard and mastered by by Andy Huether. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni. And our theme music is by Ramtin Aruplui. You can reach out to [e-mail] we're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

[Guest/Caller or Additional Participant]

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