Barry Jenkins chooses to believe in chaos

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin: Barry Jenkins Chooses to Believe in Chaos
Release Date: December 19, 2024

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Wild Card hosted by Rachel Martin, acclaimed film director Barry Jenkins delves deep into his personal and professional life, exploring themes of chaos, creativity, and the human experience. Recognized as one of the top podcasts of 2024 by The New York Times, Wild Card breaks away from traditional interview formats, encouraging guests to answer thought-provoking questions drawn from a unique deck of cards. This conversation promises an intimate look into Jenkins' mind, offering listeners profound insights into his approach to filmmaking and life.

---

Early Life and Foundations

Barry Jenkins opens up about his childhood in Miami, painting a vivid picture of his early experiences. He recounts finding solace in climbing trees to escape the chaos of growing up in a dilapidated housing project:

"I would climb up in the window to get onto the Roof. And then I would jump onto the tree and I would squirrel up into the very top of this tree... I would just go up into this tree and I would just sort of just listen to the sounds of the day."
[04:08] Barry Jenkins

These moments of solitude provided him with a sanctuary to process the complexities of his environment, laying the groundwork for his later work that often explores themes of identity and resilience.

---

Navigating Chaos in Filmmaking

Jenkins discusses his belief that the universe is inherently chaotic, a perspective that influences his storytelling:

"I think [the universe is] all chaos. I have to believe that... the last five years on this planet... have been beyond chaotic."
[00:26] Barry Jenkins

This belief drives him to create films that seek to find order within chaos, reflecting the multifaceted nature of human emotions and societal issues. Rachel Martin highlights how Jenkins' films, such as Moonlight and The Underground Railroad, transcend cultural and societal boundaries by presenting authentic and deeply human stories.

---

The Wild Card Game

The episode's interactive format involves Jenkins selecting and answering personal questions from Rachel Martin's deck of cards. The first question delves into his childhood coping mechanisms:

"I climbed trees to go feel safe and to get perspective... solitude can be very fortifying as well and to sort of recenter yourself before you re-enter the rigors, the demands of everyday life."
[06:14] Barry Jenkins

This reflection underscores Jenkins' ability to find peace amidst turmoil, a recurring theme in his cinematic work.

---

Moments of Connection

When asked about a moment when a stranger made him feel loved, Jenkins shares a poignant memory from his time at a film festival in Argentina:

"The woman said, she's a very old woman and so she doesn't have time to waste. And she heard you say that it was a very cheap film. She said it was not a cheap film. It was inexpensive... thank you for bringing this film to Marel Plata."
[09:59] Barry Jenkins

This encounter not only reaffirmed the value of his work but also highlighted the profound impact that genuine human connections can have, even with strangers.

---

Appreciating Beauty in Everyday Moments

In a discussion about early memories of appreciating beauty, Jenkins recounts a vivid moment from his youth:

"I have a streaking of color and light and movement. And just for a moment, I almost forgot that I was running a race. I just wanted to take this moment and just extend it for as long as possible."
[11:09] Barry Jenkins

This ability to find beauty in fleeting moments translates seamlessly into his filmmaking, where he crafts visually stunning scenes that linger in the audience's memory.

---

The Transition to Mufasa: The Lion King

Rachel Martin addresses Jenkins' unexpected involvement in Disney's The Lion King project, prompting him to discuss his motivations and aspirations:

"It was about using a completely new set of tools to tell a story, to create images... Mufasa is a very, very interesting character and so is Taka."
[19:01] Barry Jenkins

Jenkins explains his desire to depart from his previous work and embrace new challenges, aiming to infuse the beloved story with fresh perspectives and deeper emotional layers.

---

Friendship and Collaboration

Reflecting on personal growth, Jenkins emphasizes the evolving importance of friendship in his life:

"I took the meaning, the power of friendship for granted... Adela Romanski called me up and said, 'I love you. So let's figure out how to do this together.' This opened the portal for everything that has come into my life."
[22:02] Barry Jenkins

This renewed appreciation for collaborative relationships has been instrumental in his decision to undertake projects like Mufasa: The Lion King, underscoring the role of trusted partnerships in creative endeavors.

---

Striving for Validation and Overcoming Self-Doubt

Jenkins candidly discusses his ongoing struggle with self-worth and the pressure to prove himself:

"There's always this version of me that feels like I'm not enough... I constantly have to prove to reaffirm my ability, my value, my merits."
[24:18] Barry Jenkins

This internal conflict drives him to strive for excellence in his work, ensuring that his films authentically represent his vision and resonate with audiences on a profound level.

---

Emotional Expression and Vulnerability

When asked about his "shortcut to a good cry," Jenkins shares an emotional story about connecting with the creator of The Backyardigans:

"I feel like I'm getting this feeling of being mothered through this woman's work. And I don't know, something about that just made me very emotional, and I did cry."
[26:55] Barry Jenkins

This vulnerability highlights Jenkins' deep emotional connection to his work and his belief in the transformative power of storytelling.

---

Beliefs About Order and Chaos

Returning to the episode's central theme, Jenkins elaborates on his belief in a chaotic universe and the human endeavor to create order:

"Our role in it, which is, I think, the beauty and the agony of life is to make sense of it and to try to create order, but to do it ethically, to do it in a way that's spiritually balanced."
[32:50] Barry Jenkins

He contrasts the constructed nature of societal systems with the inherent chaos of the universe, using his own heritage and history as a descendant of African slaves to illustrate the intersection of chaos and creation.

---

Legacy and the Afterlife

Exploring philosophical questions, Jenkins contemplates the possibility of consciousness persisting after death:

"The children had been told that they weren't worth shit... I feel like I'll always be working in the opposite direction to disprove it, you know, that I'm not worth shitting."
[25:44] Barry Jenkins

He reflects on how his work, particularly Moonlight and its score, may outlive him, suggesting a form of legacy that continues to influence and inspire future generations.

---

Final Reflections and Moments to Cherish

In the episode's concluding segment, Jenkins chooses to revisit the chaotic yet memorable night when Moonlight won Best Picture at the Oscars:

"I just don't have a memory of that moment, that night, that event. It's all just... It kind of got away from me. It eclipsed my experience in a certain way."
[41:33] Barry Jenkins

He expresses a desire to have fully experienced that triumphant moment, highlighting the tension between external success and internal experience.

---

Conclusion

Barry Jenkins' appearance on Wild Card offers an intimate glimpse into the mind of a visionary filmmaker grappling with personal demons, creative aspirations, and the relentless pursuit of meaning amidst chaos. Through heartfelt anecdotes and profound reflections, Jenkins invites listeners to contemplate their own journeys of self-discovery and the role of art in shaping our understanding of the world. As he embarks on the ambitious project of Mufasa: The Lion King, Jenkins embodies the delicate balance between chaos and order, demonstrating that even in the most tumultuous times, there is room for creativity, connection, and resilience.

---

Notable Quotes

1. "I think it's all chaos. I have to believe that... the last five years on this planet... have been beyond chaotic."
   — Barry Jenkins [00:26]

2. "I climb trees to go feel safe and to get perspective... solitude can be very fortifying as well."
   — Barry Jenkins [06:14]

3. "Being present is the one truth that guides my life."
   — Barry Jenkins [37:55]

4. "Our role in it, which is, I think, the beauty and the agony of life is to make sense of it and to try to create order, but to do it ethically, to do it in a way that's spiritually balanced."
   — Barry Jenkins [32:50]

5. "I cry over the most random things... I was getting in, like, Barry Jenkins mode."
   — Barry Jenkins [27:13]

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of Wild Card not only showcases Barry Jenkins' remarkable journey as a filmmaker but also his introspective nature and commitment to authenticity. Listeners are encouraged to explore more episodes, including those featuring Lena Waithe and Bowen Yang, for additional inspiring conversations that blend humor, honesty, and profound insights.

For more information and to support Wild Card, visit plus.npr.org/wildcard.

Transcript

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from Sony Pictures Classics with the Room Next Door, the new film by Pedro Almodovar, starring Julianne Moore and Tilda Swinton. After years go by, two friends meet again in an extreme but sweet situation. In select theaters December 20th.

[Rachel Martin]

A warning. This episode contains brief cursing of the literary variety. Do you think there's order in the universe or is it all chaos?

[Barry Jenkins]

I think it's all chaos. I have to believe that. I mean, Rachel Martin, it is December 2024. You're gonna tell me the last five years on this planet, you know, have been orderly. They have been beyond, chaotic. I mean, beyond.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Questions, memories, insights and beliefs that have.

[Barry Jenkins]

Shaped them because of where I came from and what I do.

[Rachel Martin]

My guest this week is the film director, Barry Jenkins.

[Barry Jenkins]

There's just always this version of me that feels like I'm not enough.

[Rachel Martin]

It is virtually impossible to watch a Barry Jenkins film and not be emotionally changed. You can't watch the scene from the Oscar winning film moonlight where Juan teaches little to swim without seeing the full humanity of both those characters. The fragility and the strength and the desperation and love all at the same time. Barry Jenkins never set out to make movies for the masses. He's a champion of independent film who tells stories about black life in America, from a film about a one night stand in San Francisco in the early 2000s to the limited series based on the Colson Whitehead book, the Underground Railroad. But that's the thing about art and movies in particular. No matter how specific the experience is reflected on screen, if the story is told as true as it can be, as authentically as possible, the work transcends boundaries. It'll mean different things to different people, but it will mean something. And Barry Jenkins has made films that matter in the most profound ways. So when I tell you that Jenkins is making the newest Lion King movie for Disney, maybe you need to take a beat, because this is the indie filmmaker taking a big swing in the completely opposite direction. But then you remember that Barry Jenkins wants his films to make an emotional imprint on us. And if a little hakuna matata doesn't make you feel joy, then I don't know what will. Barry Jenkins, welcome to Wild Card.

[Barry Jenkins]

Thank you for having me. That was an awesome introduction. Yay.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm glad I got a little while.

[Barry Jenkins]

I was wondering, how are we gonna land this ship?

[Rachel Martin]

I know, right?

[Barry Jenkins]

You landed it. Thank You.

[Rachel Martin]

It's a big pivot, and we will talk about that pivot. But we're gonna start with this game. How do you feel about it?

[Barry Jenkins]

I feel good. I've done a little bit of research into this game just to see what it was. Someone told me you should check that out before you go into it. Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Before you agree to do this.

[Barry Jenkins]

Exactly. I have friends who've been on it, which is pretty cool to see.

[Rachel Martin]

Wait, tell me who.

[Barry Jenkins]

Lena. Waithe listened to Lena's episode. That's a good one. I don't know Bowen very well, but I've met him a few times. Listened to his episode. I thought that one was pretty fun. I don't know. It's an interesting way to get into this kind of conversation, so I'm looking forward to it.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, so let's do it. I've got a deck of cards in front of me. I will hold up three cards at a time, and you will pick one, two, or three. That's the one you'll answer. You get a couple tools to use in this experience. You get one skip and you get a flip where you can flip it on me. I will answer it first before you. You still have to answer it. And we're gonna break it up into three rounds with a few questions in each round.

[Barry Jenkins]

Cool. Sounds good.

[Rachel Martin]

Sounds good. Okay, let's get into it. So this is round one. I am holding three cards up. One, two or three?

[Barry Jenkins]

Two, two.

[Rachel Martin]

Right in the middle. Where would you go to feel safe as a kid?

[Barry Jenkins]

Where would I go to feel safe as a kid? Not the first question I expected. Boom. You know, I gre. You know, I actually know the answer to this. I grew up very poor in the world that you see dramatized in moonlight. And I lived in this housing project that had been around, probably a post war sort of housing project. I think it was built as barracks probably for soldiers, and then became public housing.

[Rachel Martin]

This is in Miami.

[Barry Jenkins]

We should say this is in Miami. Exactly. And in the middle of this complex, there was an old, like, laundromat. It was like a. Like a wash house. And it was this one story, maybe like 20 by 10 foot thing, the structure. But it had this flat roof and there was this massive tree above it. And I remember as a child, if things were too heavy or there was too much going on, I would go and I would find a way using the window. And this place is dilapidated, like, in disrepute, like it's not being used. I would climb up in the window to get onto the Roof. And then I would jump onto the tree and I would squirrel up into the very top of this tree, like so high that if someone was walking by, they would never know someone was up there. And I would just go up into this tree and I would just sort of just like listen to the sounds of the day. I would kind of just clear my head. And I think I would just stay up there until I felt like I was ready to sort of reenter the world or re. Enter my life. I haven't thought of it in a very, very long time. Cause the idea of me climbing trees is crazy.

[Rachel Martin]

Not a thing you do now.

[Barry Jenkins]

Yeah, that's what I would do. And it's interesting. Later in life I would sometimes go on these long walks as a teenager and I would find these empty houses that had fruit trees in the backyards. You know, it's Florida, it's Miami. Grapefruit trees, avocado trees. And I guess I climbed trees a lot. I would climb trees.

[Rachel Martin]

It sounds like it. Yeah.

[Barry Jenkins]

On the regular I would climb trees to go feel safe and to get perspective probably.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, there's something about getting high above the din of life and the hard things.

[Barry Jenkins]

Yeah, it's weird. There's a version of it that maybe as you're trying to avoid all these different things, but I think solitude can be very fortifying as well and to sort of recenter yourself before you re enter the rigors, the demands of everyday life, especially that life. Cause it was a lot for. For a child to process.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm never quite sure which of these questions land with different people. And that was a good one. Okay, three more cards. One, two or three?

[Barry Jenkins]

I will go with three this time. Let's go with three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three. What's a moment when a stranger made you feel loved?

[Barry Jenkins]

What's a moment when a stranger made me feel loved? Oof. Flip.

[Rachel Martin]

I have answered this before and I told one story. So now I'm trying to think. I think, well, wow, this really gets into it. This is something I haven't said before. It was when my mom was dying of cancer. And it was a long death. Right. We were in hospice at her house, my parents house in rural Idaho. And it's one of those things where you don't know when it's gonna happen. It's just long and it's so hard for everybody. And I was working this demanding job in television at the time. And so I had already been there for three weeks. And I thought, well, it looks like she's. It's that she's not gonna pass for a few more weeks. And so I made the choice to come back to Washington, D.C. and as I was on my layover, I just, like, collapsed on a wall. I just slid down a wall and just like sobbed. And then went up to the ticket counter and tried to get on the next flight back because it just felt wrong. And the ticket agent, she just recognized, obviously I wasn't making a secret of it. I was like hysterically weeping. But she took care of me in that moment, and I am. I am grateful for that.

[Barry Jenkins]

Wow. Thank you for that, stranger. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Barry Jenkins]

You know, I listened to a few of these and you were like, if you want to buy time, do the flip.

[Rachel Martin]

I just buy you time.

[Barry Jenkins]

This idea of a stranger is tricky, but I did think of a story back in 2008. It must have been. I was in Argentina at this film festival with my first film, Medicine for Melancholy. But I was doing a Q and A for this film, and I was trying to find a way, because I was speaking through a translator, to make my language very simple. And so this movie, Medicine for Melancholy, the budget was 15,000 US and so in describing it, I was like, oh, you know, it's a very cheap film. You know, we made it very quickly, blah, blah, blah. And as I'm doing the Q and A, I'm up on a stage. I see this like 78 year old woman stand up in the back of the room and she just starts walking towards the stage. She gets to the foot of the stage and she reaches up and she taps me on the foot as I'm answering another question. And she starts speaking to me in Spanish. And then she turns and she walks off and it turns to the moderator and I go, what does she say? And she said, oh, the woman said, she's a very old woman and so she doesn't have time to waste. And she heard you say that it was a very cheap film. She said it was not a cheap film. It was inexpensive. There's a difference. Thank you for bringing this film to Marel Plata. I feel like I learned so much about you and where you're from.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Barry Jenkins]

And that was it. It was such a lovely gesture, but it's like she held up a mirror and showed me how my words were almost making my own work diminutive. And I thought it was a really lovely thing for this total stranger to offer up to this young black man from America with his tiny mumblecore film.

[Rachel Martin]

I love it too, because she didn't expect anything in return. She didn't need to meet you to be able to say, I met the director, Barry. Jack. She literally just wanted you to know it.

[Barry Jenkins]

Exactly. And she, and she felt it was so necessary for me to know this that she was going to interrupt, she was going to walk up and put her lay hands on me to make sure I received this lesson. I'll never forget it. Never.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, I love that one. Okay, three more. These are three different cards. One, two, or three.

[Barry Jenkins]

So I made a point that I was gonna choose each number at least once. So I have to go number one.

[Rachel Martin]

I love that people set their own rules for this. It's so funny. Okay, number one. What's an early memory of appreciating beauty?

[Barry Jenkins]

What's an early memory of a beauty Appreciating beauty? I was an athlete growing up. I ran track and I played football. And I'll never forget I was running what you call the 4x4 relay. Everyone runs once around the track. And I was running second leg. And second leg, everyone's in their lane, just staggered. But at the beginning of the second leg, across the first 100 meters, everyone merges into the most inside lane because that's the shortest distance to run around the track. And I'll never forget, the baton came around to me and I got it and I'm just running. And Rachel, I'm just like nothing. Everything disappears. There's no sound, there's no light. It's all just like a feeling. But there was this moment where. And this happens sometimes in a race. Everyone was converging at once and you're all wearing these different uniforms and I just remember just this streaking of color and light and movement. And just for a moment, I almost forgot that I was running a race. I just wanted to take this moment and just extend it for as long as possible. And what I'm talking about probably was only. I'm doing the math in my head. Three and a half, four and a half seconds this time it takes for this wall of runners to converge into a flat line. But God, it was gorgeous. Gorgeous.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh my God, you're. You were such a filmmaker even then. Like, you're just seeing the aesthetic.

[Barry Jenkins]

And it's weird, cuz these images stay with you. There's a shot in Mufasa, the Lion King of all places, where I got to somehow restage this feeling. The two cubs have this race and there's a moment where one of the cubs catches up to the other cub and the camera is just placed in just the right position when there's this light reflecting off the water and he's running and he's at an angle and just for a moment I was like, oh, that's what it felt like on that second leg of the 4x400.

[Rachel Martin]

That's so great. You got to extend the moment in your own way.

[Barry Jenkins]

I did. For another three and a half seconds. We're in the studios. Like why are we in this shot so long? I'm like, you don't understand. This is my childhood.

[Rachel Martin]

This message comes from NPR sponsor Anthropic. Meet Claude, Anthropic's AI assistant, ready to transform how your organization works. Empower every person in your organization with AI that thinks like a teammate, not a tool. Securely upload your company knowledge and watch as Claude helps every department from engineering to marketing produce their best work faster. Your data stays protected while your teams reach new heights. Discover Enterprise grade [e-mail] Enterprise this message.

[MIDI Health]

Comes from MIDI Health Women in midlife face a healthcare desert, but MIDI is here to fill the gap, offering expert care for perimenopause and menopause covered by insurance. Hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, weight gain and moodiness don't have to be accepted as just another part of aging. MIDI clinicians understand how these symptoms can connect to menopause and prescribe a wide range of solutions. Book your visit today@join midi.com that's join.

[NPR Sponsor]

Midi.Com this message comes from Progressive Insurance, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Get your [e-mail] and see if you could save. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who saved with progr between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary.

[MIDI Health]

This message comes from MIDI Health if you're a woman over 40 dealing with hot flashes, insomnia, weight gain or brain fog, you don't have to accept it as just another part of aging. The clinicians at MIDI Health understand what you're experiencing and know how to help. MIDI Health provides specialized care for perimenopause and menopause covered by insurance. Book your Visit [e-mail] that's join M I D I.com this message comes from Miti Health Women in midlife face a healthcare desert, but MIDI is here to fill the gap, offering expert care for perimenopause and menopause covered by insurance. Hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, weight gain and moodiness don't have to be accepted as just another part of aging. Midi clinicians understand how these symptoms can connect to menopause and prescribe a wide range of solutions. Book your Visit [e-mail] that's joinmidi.com.

[Rachel Martin]

We'Re going to take a break from the game and talk a little bit more about Mufasa, the Lion King. Okay, so this is where I come clean to you, because I have to. I see a lot of stuff for work, and on my calendar it just said, barry Jenkins new film. And the theater I was going to watch these excerpts at, so I actually didn't know what I was watching of yours. So I'm like, barry J. I was getting in, like, Barry Jenkins mode.

[Barry Jenkins]

Very different mode.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm, like, fortified emotionally, and I sit down, music is starting, and I was like, whoa, okay, this is something different. But I am here for it. Yes. So, yeah, how did this.

[Barry Jenkins]

I am so glad you were here for it. That was the expectation. I don't imagine you'll be the last person to have that experience, but so long as you're here for it, you know, it'll be a very wonderful ride.

[Rachel Martin]

It was lovely, lovely, lovely. So were you just already craving a massive departure from films that you had made before, or did the project present itself and then you're like, yeah, maybe it was both.

[Barry Jenkins]

I was itching for something different for a departure, as you say, especially because this came to me about six months into post production on the Underground Railroad, which the Underground Railroad felt like the completion of this one continuous filmmaking process that began with production of Moonlight. And when I read the script, actually, when I get the script, I'm skeptical. I go, I'm not gonna read that because I'm not gonna do that, because.

[Rachel Martin]

Why say more words? You were just like, I'm not doing.

[Barry Jenkins]

Animation, I'm not doing anime. But also, the conversation we just had where you didn't know what you were going to see, you were expecting to do this one thing, and then when you realized what it was, you were like, wait, what? You know, I had that same. Wait, what? In my head. And because of that, no, never. But then after about a week, my partner actually said, well, it's kind of a cop out to say no without actually reading whatever this thing is, you know, what are you afraid of? And so I read the piece, and to my shock, I saw so many things that I think are very present in all the work you mentioned in moonlight and if Bill Shrika talk in the Underground Railroad, in this story about Mufasa. The Lion King. And I also saw these opportunities to create a bit of magic in a very different way, in a very different tone than I had been working for at that point. I say six consecutive years. And so I made myself open to it.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, and we're all the better for it. So I gotta ask you about the big Hollywood blockbuster, though, because you worked for Oprah's company, Harpo.

[Barry Jenkins]

I did.

[Rachel Martin]

And you said after that experience that you were disillusioned with, quote, Hollywood filmmaking. Have you gotten over that?

[Barry Jenkins]

Yes. Those were the words of a 24 year old person who thought that the world should be given to them. You know, I worked at that company for two years, one as a director's assistant, one in development, air quote here. And I thought, after these two years, give me a film. And when that didn't happen, you know, and Ms. Winfrey and I are friends now, when that didn't happen, I was pissed. I thought, why can't I make movies like everybody else? It was totally ridiculous, I should say. And to me, the Mufasa, it wasn't about making a tent pole or making this massively scaled film. It was about using a completely new set of tools to tell a story, to create images. That was the way I thought about it, standing apart from the other work I'd done. At the end of the day, it's a story just like any other. And Mufasa is a very, very interesting character and so is Taka.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. These are the two cubs. Okay, so now you have to settle a bet with my editor who had never heard of the Simba Cam. And I was. Oh, no, your face. You don't know what the Simba Cam is?

[Barry Jenkins]

I do not.

[Rachel Martin]

How do you not know what the sim is?

[Barry Jenkins]

You're talking about this?

[Rachel Martin]

Yes. Yes.

[Barry Jenkins]

Oh, I mean, come on. I don't know the term for it.

[Rachel Martin]

The simultaneous listeners. You're lifting up perhaps a baby into the air or a pet or whatever. And at many professional sporting events, they will have, instead of the Kiss cam, it's the Simba Cam. And everybody holds their baby up.

[Barry Jenkins]

So what I love about this is this is. This is proof positive. Just the. This idea of language. Because again, I've been to Brazil, Italy, France, Germany and Spain just in the last, like two weeks with this movie, the Lion King. It sort of crosses these barriers of language, of culture. Because if I go somewhere and I do this. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Raising your hands up. Yeah.

[Barry Jenkins]

Everyone knows what I'm referencing. And that's a really, really powerful thing with Mufasa. What I love is then you have this great starting point with audiences anywhere, everywhere, especially with these built in notions of good and evil. And we get to sort of unpack that and add what I think is all these really amazing layers of complexity, because I think, you know, 2024 is a much more complex world than 1994 was. And I think children and parents are just a lot more savvy, you know, about these totems, you know, that they're receiving in entertainment. And so I relish the opportunity to go in and the Simba Cam as. To use that as this tool to unpack what I think are some really amazing and naughty issues.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. And now we're into round two.

[Barry Jenkins]

Okay, copy that.

[Rachel Martin]

Round two. Cards are blue. Three more questions.

[Barry Jenkins]

The cards are blue.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, we're sort of going deeper as we go, but. 1, 2, 3.

[Barry Jenkins]

Let's go 3.

[Rachel Martin]

3. What's something you think of very differently than you did 10 years ago?

[Barry Jenkins]

Something I think of very differently than I did 10 years ago? I would say friendship. I would say friendship. I think I took the meaning, the power of friendship for granted. 10 years ago. I. I was floundering in my life at this point. I was very unmoored, unrooted. I didn't know what it was I wanted to do. And I'm a filmmaker, and I was certain that I needed to find out how to sort of, like, answer these questions, how to solve this problem. I felt like I was a problem. And the projects that people know me for, you know, moonlight, the Underground Railroad, and the films we produced, you know, after Sun, Aldeart, Rose, Taste of Salt. There's this woman, Adela Romanski, who was the primary producer on those projects. We went to film school together, and we just lost touch. And she called me up and she said, barry Jenkins. I need to figure something out. And I want you to figure it out as well, because I only want to work with people I love on things they care about. And I love you. So let's figure out how to do this together. This opened the portal for everything that has come into my life over this past decade. And so now, when it comes to making these choices, we're talking about Mufasa, the Lion King a little bit today. I would not have made this movie if my friends did not make it with me. You know, it wouldn't have been worth it. It just wouldn't have been. Because spending time with them, growing with them, I just realize how. How important it is to me. I won't even say valuable. How Important it is to me. So I think that's something that I have a much different relationship to now than I did then.

[Rachel Martin]

Good for her for making that first phone call, you know?

[Barry Jenkins]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Okay. One, two or three? Three new cards.

[Barry Jenkins]

I'm going three, two, one this time. So we're going two, two. Wait a second. Do I get a flip again?

[Rachel Martin]

No, you already used it.

[Barry Jenkins]

But we're just, like, greedy.

[Rachel Martin]

You're so greedy.

[Barry Jenkins]

No, I just have. I have a feeling about this.

[Rachel Martin]

You do?

[Barry Jenkins]

I do.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. What is something you still feel you need to prove to the people you meet?

[Barry Jenkins]

What is some. You know, because of where I came from and what I do, that there's just always this version of me that feels like I. I'm not enough, you know, that I. That I constantly have to prove to reaffirm my ability, my value, my merits. And so anytime I walk onto a set, I walk into a conversation like this, and it sucks because it's the antithesis to us actually communicating and connecting is me being. Bringing this voice in the back of my head that feels like I am just simply not enough. I'm not good enough. The flip side is, you know, it keeps me very driven. I am trying to put my full self. I am trying to just be unimpeachably affirmative of value, of merit, just of merit. And I think it's something that will always be with me, unfortunately, because I don't think it's something that adds value.

[Rachel Martin]

You haven't known. You haven't experienced it abating over time.

[Barry Jenkins]

It's still pretty close. No, I have not. I think when you go, you know, I made this film of Billet Rika Talk, which is an adaptation of James Baldwin. And there's this great quote that we put into the movie. It's taken directly from the book. The children had been told that they weren't worth shit, and everything around them proved it. On one hand, a very lovely, beautiful book, but also a very angry, justifiably angry book. And something of that line just stays in the back of my head. And for some reason, I feel like I'll always be working in the opposite direction to disprove it, you know, that I'm not worth shitting. So that's it again. So I'm gonna give you the honest answers. Rachel. Rachel.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, yeah, I get that. I appreciate your honesty. Just so you know. Okay, last one in this round. One, two or three?

[Barry Jenkins]

It's got to be one. We've gone three, two, one. Got to be one.

[Rachel Martin]

What's your Shortcut to a good cry.

[Barry Jenkins]

What's my shortcut to a good cry? I cry over the most random things.

[Rachel Martin]

Give it to me.

[Barry Jenkins]

You know, anything that is just impassioned, I cry over. I had this moment during the pandemic where I just somehow stumbled into, I guess because I was watching, you know, making Mufasa the Lion King. I just fell down this Backyardigans rabbit hole. Have you heard of the show the Backyardigans?

[Rachel Martin]

Backyardigans?

[Barry Jenkins]

Uh, yes. It's this wonderful, wonderful children's television show, really, that. That had been on, I believe, Nickelodeon. I don't even know what network, but I found it. I literally bought full seasons of the show on Apple tv. And I start watching the show, and the show is so full of life. It's so just, like, overwhelmingly, just expressive. And then I find that it was created by this young black woman. Name. I believe her name is Ms. Janice Burgess, who's recently passed away. But before she passed away, I started tweeting about how wonderful it was that she had made the show. And I was just like, I was losing my mind on Twitter over the Backyardigans, and somehow I didn't realize she was on Twitter. She found the tweets and she replied to me. And something about that. It just moved me so much that I cried. I was sitting at home, and I think part of it was. I think this woman, Ms. Burgess, through this work, raised so many children. Not children of her own, but raised so many children. And I imagine oftentimes you get to a point and you assume that maybe your connection to people, your impact is now dormant. And the fact that this whole just through retweeting this thing, this sort of, like, energy catches back up, and myself and this woman get to connect across time. I am not her son, but in a way, I'm getting this feeling of being mothered through this woman's work. And I don't know, something about that just made me very emotional, and I did cry.

[Rachel Martin]

So now this happens for you. If you will just cue up an episode of Backyard again, it'll still trigger that, you know.

[Barry Jenkins]

Now it would be about the memory of Ms. Burgess, because she passed away. But, Rach, I cry all the time at movies like I'm a sucker.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, me too.

[Barry Jenkins]

I am a total, total sucker. I mean, we go to the movies to feel that. I've been told I do that for people. And I'm saying right now, publicly, so many people do that for me. You know, it's the circle of life.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, that was so good.

[Barry Jenkins]

It's the circle of cry.

[Rachel Martin]

The circle of cry. Circle of the good CR.

[Barry Jenkins]

Foreign.

[Rachel Martin]

Support.

[MIDI Health]

For NPR comes from Google. This year, Google is celebrating the breakout searches of 2024 that captured the world's attention and shaped our year in ways we never saw coming. Watch the film at G co yearinsearch. Google search on.

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from Noom. Using psychology and biology to build personal meal plans to fit your lifestyle, taking into account dietary restrictions, medical issues and other personal needs. With daily lessons that are personalized to you and your goals. Noom's flexible program focuses on progress instead of perfection to help you build new habits for a healthier lifestyle. Sign up for your trial [e-mail] this message comes from Strawberry Me. Making personal coaching accessible to everyone. Strawberry Me certified coaches help you gain clarity, set goals, create a plan, and then and keep you focused on realizing the life you've envisioned. A personal coach will empower you to create lasting, positive changes and unlock your full potential. If you are ready to turn dreaming into doing, visit Strawberry Me NPR to get 20% off your first month membership. That's Strawberry Me NPR.

[MIDI Health]

This message comes from Grammarly. 231 is the average number of apps used by many companies. This can drain employee focus. Grammarly can help. Grammarly's AI works in over 500,000 apps and websites, making it easy for your team to write clearly and on brand without disrupting workflow. Join 70,000 teams who save an average of $5,000 per employee per year using Grammarly. Go to Grammarly.comenterprise to learn.

[Rachel Martin]

Last round, Barry Jenkins. Three new cards. One, two, or three?

[Barry Jenkins]

I want you to choose one for me.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you?

[Barry Jenkins]

This is not the game. There are new rules.

[Rachel Martin]

What? There are new rules in this game.

[Barry Jenkins]

I really.

[Rachel Martin]

What am I gonna do this? Okay, fine, since you asked, but I am not setting a precedent. Okay, well, now I'm assessing. Okay. Okay. I'm gonna choose this one. Dealer's choice. What's a belief you chose to let go of?

[Barry Jenkins]

A belief I need to let go of. You know, is the one we were just speaking about. This idea of being less than you know or lacking. I need to. I need to remove that from my psyche. This idea that I have to prove myself. You know what? So we'll. We'll consider that first with my skip.

[Rachel Martin]

Skip. I'm gonna ask you a different one.

[Barry Jenkins]

Yeah, please. Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you think there's order in the universe or is it all chaos?

[Barry Jenkins]

I think it's all chaos. I really do. I have to believe that. Whoa.

[Rachel Martin]

People usually give the complete opposite answer that there is order because they have to believe that, because the alternative is so unsettling.

[Barry Jenkins]

The alternative is unsettling, but there's also something quite beautiful about it as well. I do believe that the universe is chaos and our role in it, which is, I think, the beauty and the agony of life is to make sense of it and to try to create order, but to do it ethically, to do it in a way that's spiritually balanced. I truly and fully believe that. Because if the universe was completely the situation of order, I think the history of me, you know, I'm the descendant of African slaves. What order gave, gave birth to that path, that certainly came out of complete chaos and horror. But I think we can take that chaos and create something, you know, quite profound. I really do. I mean. Rachel Martin, it is December 2024. You're gonna tell me the last five years on this planet, you know, have been orderly? They have been beyond, chaotic. I mean, beyond. And when we go out and create work, when you do these interviews, when I create these films, I do think we're all trying to have conversations, dialogue, to make sense, you know, of all this chaos, to show that we're all navigating it in our own ways and we are just doing the best we can. Indeed.

[Rachel Martin]

And I think when people give the opposite answer that there's order, it's their projection of order that makes the chaos manageable.

[Barry Jenkins]

You know, it is true, I have to be honest and say, most of the people who come onto the show, myself included, we're speaking from places of extreme privilege. Not all of us, but quite a few of us. And I just can't ever really sit in that place.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I get it. Okay, three more. One, two or three.

[Barry Jenkins]

Let's go two.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you think there's any part of us that lives on after we die?

[Barry Jenkins]

I don't know. I've been thinking about this a lot. I just turned 45. And so I'm at the point where statistically, I've probably. There's more life behind me than there is ahead of me, just mathematically, scientifically. And so I am beginning to think of this. And I do think as you present energy into the world, moonlight is a great example. Moonlight and the score for if Bill Street Could Talk. But my good friend Nicholas Britel. Those two things are going to far outlive me. But once this consciousness shuts down, is there going to be some other form of it that's floating around? I don't know. I Will say, maybe six years ago, I would have said, absolutely not. But now to go back to your question of order and chaos, of making order out of chaos, of the profundity of experience, a friend of mine, Romel Ross, just made a film called Nickel Boys. It's an adaptation of Coastal. It's extraordinary in the whole film feels like you're in someone's soul sort of moving through life. And I would love for all of us to have that experience possibly, you know, through the vessel of someone else. But I can't say for certain that's the case.

[Rachel Martin]

But that film opened the possibility to you.

[Barry Jenkins]

It did. It did. It did. And it's a very recent watch and I've seen it twice. There's something about whatever Rommel is communicating in that film, and he's using the tools of filmmaking to do it, that it feels like a second life, an afterlife, you know, to use Toni Morrison. It's both life and post life in this really, really beautiful way. And so maybe, possibly, I need to read more. Marilyn Robinson. Back when I used to read Marilyn Robinson a lot, I was certain that, yes, we all did have a post life experience. I do hope so.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Barry Jenkins]

Do you hope so?

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Okay, this is the last question.

[Barry Jenkins]

Barry Jenkins, I've given you almost no definitive answer.

[Rachel Martin]

No, that's.

[Barry Jenkins]

I mean, I apologize.

[Rachel Martin]

That's. That's the best stuff. Is. Is the mushy gray matter in between the definitives?

[Barry Jenkins]

I think it's where I love to be. It's. It's. You know, filmmaking is very concrete, but we're trying to create. At least I'm trying to create things even with this virtual production, animated, you know, lions. Trying to create an image that's very mushy and gray, you know, that's open to interpretation and open to many different modes and gradations of feeling. That's always the goal.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, three more. One, two or three?

[Barry Jenkins]

Three.

[Rachel Martin]

Three what? Truth guides your life more than any other.

[Barry Jenkins]

When truth guides my life more than any other, it's interesting because someone, I believe Bowen made a comment about being present. And I feel like being present is the one truth that guides my life. You know, I think there's something so wonderful about being in a space with other people and always being very clear to acknowledge how those other people are sharing the space with you. It's the way, I think a film set functions the best. And it's like this petri dish, you know, for the human experiment. For me, I think the best way, at least I found the best version of Me as a creator is when everyone is so present, and because of my energy, everyone knows that it is incumbent upon them to be present. Like, that's what they. They are here to do, and that I am not taking that presence for granted. Something about that, both in work and in life, you know, if I'm home and my partner is, I can tell there's something going on with them that has nothing to do with. With us, but has very much to do with them, their work, their life. You want to be present, to recognize those things, to either know when to give space or when to be an heir, to be a vessel. Something about that has always just served me just very, very well. And I think that it's this really wonderful principle. It's kind of hard to take things from work and sort of bring them directly into your life in a way that actually creates change. But I think this thing, this notion of being present absolutely has.

[Rachel Martin]

And we should just assign. I. I want to assign other words to that, too, because be present, be present is like a thing that's in the culture and we hear it all the time, but it basically just means, like, paying attention, attention, being slow. And I love that. I try to do that, too.

[Barry Jenkins]

So, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, so you've listened to the show, so you know that we end it the same way every time trip in our memory time machine. You get to choose one moment from your past. A moment that you would not change anything about, but a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. Which moment do you choose?

[Barry Jenkins]

Oh, it's, you know, moonlight winning Best Picture at the Oscars. It was absolutely chaotic. Just talk about again. Chaos.

[Rachel Martin]

Totally, absolute chaos.

[Barry Jenkins]

Absolutely chaotic.

[Rachel Martin]

This was when they announced the wrong Best Picture winner, and then live on stage, they took it back.

[Barry Jenkins]

And typically, you would expect that, oh, I wish they would have just said moonlight, and it would have been a normal thing. I don't wish that because, you know, sometimes you go into a foreign country and, you know, the customers were like, oh, and what do you do? Oh, what if. Well, you know, you wouldn't know. But you remember that thing with the envelope? Oh, I made that film. People always really.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Barry Jenkins]

And so. Yeah, and so I don't. I wouldn't change the way it happened, but I just didn't allow myself to be present. And so I just don't have a memory of that moment, that night, that event. I just don't. It's all just. It kind of. I feel like it got away from me. It eclipsed me. It eclipsed my experience in a certain way.

[Rachel Martin]

So you want to go back and actually have a memory. So we are changing it a little bit because you want to actually pay attention in that moment.

[Barry Jenkins]

Well, you said that you could live in for a longer time.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, There you go.

[Barry Jenkins]

And I do wish I could have had more time with that moment. Not because of winning Best Picture, but it was the culmination. You know, one of the questions earlier, Adela Romanski, this woman who I. We took the time to rebuild a platonic love.

[Rachel Martin]

Your friend.

[Barry Jenkins]

And then. And then out of that love, we went on this journey to create something in our image. This very small story about myself and this gentleman, Terrell, Ivan McCraney's life. And look at how far it traveled. Look at how many people it impacted. And at the moment when that was celebrated, I just don't have a memory of it. I don't have that in body. This thing I talked about, this race, you know, this lane change. I have a clearer, more lasting memory of those four and a half seconds than I do of the night, the moment we won Best Picture. I hasten to even talk about that because it's so far in the past, but you asked the question.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, it's still worth it.

[Barry Jenkins]

You asked the question, and so it is the answer.

[Rachel Martin]

God, Barry, how much I wish I actually did have the power to put you in a magical time machine so you can.

[Barry Jenkins]

Well, Rachel, this is the power of what you do. You just did.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay.

[Barry Jenkins]

You just did.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. I hope so.

[Barry Jenkins]

You just did. And I thank you for it.

[Rachel Martin]

As a person who watched it, it was a beautiful moment. It was awesome. You were great.

[Barry Jenkins]

I sometimes wonder what it would have been like to have been at a watch party watching. As someone who watches a lot of live sports, Watching that happen would have just been absolute madness.

[Rachel Martin]

It was madness and it was magic. Barry Jenkins, it was a thrill to talk with you. I'm so excited for your new movie, Mufasa the Lion King. It comes out December 20th. I'm just so happy for you and this new thing, and I can't wait to see what comes next.

[Barry Jenkins]

Thank you very much.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like this episode, you really should go listen to the episodes with Lena Waithe and Bowen Yang that Barry mentioned. Both of them were so incredibly thoughtful and frank and hilarious. I especially loved when Bone opened up about how conflicted he is around transparency, how open to be with his fans.

[Barry Jenkins]

I really am still reckoning with that idea where I'm like, I've always been an open book. I've always shared my thoughts pretty extemporaneously on things and haven't really regretted them too much. But now I think I'm reevaluating what it means or like how worth it it is to, like, be honest about everything.

[Rachel Martin]

This episode was produced by Romel Wood and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Robert Rodriguez. Wildcard's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to [e-mail] we're gonna shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

[NPR Sponsor]

This message comes from GiveWell. GiveWell provides rigorous, transparent research about the best giving opportunities so that donors can make informed decisions about high impact giving. To learn more, go to givewell.org and pick podcast and enter NPR at checkout. Support for this podcast and the following message come from Uncommon Goods still haven't finished your holiday shopping? Don't panic. Skip gifts that scream last minute and shop products that are high quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the [e-mail] and with every purchase you make, $1 is given to a nonprofit partner of your choice. Get 15% off your next gift at UncommonGoods.com NPR Uncommon Goods we're all out of the ordinary. This message comes from Jackson Seek clarity in retirement [e-mail] Jackson is short for Jackson Financial, Inc. Jackson National Life Insurance Co. Lansing, Michigan and Jackson National Life Insurance Co. Of New York, Purchase, New York.