← Wild Card with Rachel Martin
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- [00:01]
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- [00:20]
Rachel Martin
Has competition done more to help you or hurt you?
- [00:23]
Bobbi Brown
Definitely help. I love competition. I find that competition just makes you be better. And you know, I do. What I do is better when it.
- [00:34]
Rachel Martin
Comes to makeup, I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Cards, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is cosmetics mogul Bobbi Brown.
- [00:53]
Bobbi Brown
There was a lot of women and a lot of men that just said, yes. Yes. I was kind of the one that said, no, I don't think that's right.
- [01:02]
Rachel Martin
Bobby Brown's career started because two words. Why not? Why not Cold call a bunch of famous makeup artists to get her first job. Why not make her own makeup? Why not launch a new company and become a TikTok star in her 60s? When Bobbi Brown asks why not? It's like she's daring someone to answer. Daring someone to curb her ambition, which is impossible because she has already made up her mind to go for it. Bobbi Brown, welcome to Wildcard.
- [01:29]
Bobbi Brown
Thank you. That was quite an introduction. I loved it.
- [01:33]
Rachel Martin
Well, I'm really happy to get to do this. I watched you on the Today show when you had your recurring segment for years. So this is a thrill for me even though I have. I have a love hate relationship with makeup. I will tell you straight up.
- [01:45]
Bobbi Brown
As do I.
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Rachel Martin
Yes. But we're gonna get right into the game. Okay.
- [01:50]
Bobbi Brown
Okay.
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Rachel Martin
You ready?
- [01:52]
Bobbi Brown
I'm ready.
- [01:52]
Rachel Martin
Okay, let's go. First, three cards. Here we go. Memories. 1, 2 or 3?
- [01:58]
Bobbi Brown
2. 2.
- [02:02]
Rachel Martin
What's a routine from your childhood that you miss?
- [02:06]
Bobbi Brown
Back to school? I always loved going back to school when I was a kid. Cause my mother made sure I had new underwear, new clothes, and she wanted me to start the year right. And for her it was having a new outfit.
- [02:20]
Rachel Martin
Do you remember a specific back to school outfit that you were like, I look good.
- [02:23]
Bobbi Brown
Oh, oh, I do.
- [02:25]
Rachel Martin
Yeah.
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Bobbi Brown
I don't think I looked good. But it was. Yes. I had this dress. There were buttons sewn on it. And I loved it so much. She bought it for me in a couple colors.
- [02:34]
Rachel Martin
So it's funny you should say that. We're talking in back to school. Season. Your kids are grown. They don't go back to school anymore.
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Bobbi Brown
My granddaughter started pre K this morning. I've already called her parents, but they didn't answer, like, how did it go?
- [02:47]
Rachel Martin
Right. You need a picture of that. I love the new school year. I still have kids who are in school, but for me also, it's like January for me. I like, I treat it as a New Year's opportunity to, like, recommit to things. I have my own kind of August, September resolutions. It feels fresh and new. Is that part of it for you too?
- [03:09]
Bobbi Brown
Oh, 100%. You know, I wish I had time to clean out my closet just to get all organized. This year was a little bit crazy. I love the start of new anything.
- [03:20]
Rachel Martin
We're the same Bobby Brown. Okay.
- [03:21]
Bobbi Brown
Okay.
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Rachel Martin
That one was easy. Three more. One, two, three. Three, three. How do you consciously try to emulate your parents?
- [03:36]
Bobbi Brown
By being a good person and also being creative and not afraid.
- [03:42]
Rachel Martin
Can you tell me more about them? You write about them quite a bit in the book.
- [03:46]
Bobbi Brown
Yeah. My parents were 20 and 21 when I was born, and I don't think they had a clue how to raise kids. By the time they were 25, they had three kids. And my dad was in law school, became a lawyer, my mom a homemaker. All I remember from my growing up is I had a perfect, idyllic family. And my mother was always there. She cared about everything. She helped me with my homework, she helped me with projects. She helped me do my beauty things, you know, which was like polishing our nails or whatever little things we would do at home. I was really close to my mom when I was young. My dad was working, and when he came home from work, my mother would run around the house hysterical. Clean up, clean up. She wanted everything perfect. When my dad walked in the house, that was chaos, I'm not gonna lie. Because we were playing and we had to stop and clean up. But she wanted everything perfect for my dad. You know, I think she suffered from perfectionism. I have some of it, but I'm certainly not cleaning up by the time my husband comes home.
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Rachel Martin
And it was more than just a fixation on making everything perfect. I mean, your mom, you write about quite thoughtfully that your mom really struggled with mental health issues.
- [05:07]
Bobbi Brown
She did. I did. You know, the perfectionism was one part of her. It wasn't like where there was something wrong, but she did suffer from mental illness. That came out when I was older, when I was in middle school, but when I was in elementary school, you know, it was more Fun and games. But she just had this idyllic thing that she wanted my dad to walk in with these three perfect kids, dinner on the table, everything clean. And, you know, we had to make sure it was done. Cause my mother wasn't a strict mom. She was strict about that, though.
- [05:44]
Rachel Martin
And did your dad understand how much how taxing that was for her? I mean, did he appreciate the effort?
- [05:51]
Bobbi Brown
I don't think so. Honestly, I don't think so. It didn't matter for him. And he walked in and everything was nice, and, you know, he threw his things down and, you know, we hugged him. We were always happy to see him. And there was some kind of playing before dinner. And then, you know, we just had our dinner and bath. And, you know, this was when I was younger. You know, things changed as I got older. My parents split up at some point, and my mother had mental illness. So things definitely changed. But I'm so lucky to have had a much more stable environment. And I was older than my brother and sister were, so at least I think I got the best of them. Or at least I have been able to appreciate and take the best of them. Yeah.
- [06:38]
Rachel Martin
Yeah. And it sounds like, even though that was a frenetic time, we gotta get the house ready. Dad's coming home. This was her job. I mean, your parents had very traditional gender roles, so this is what she took pride in. But it's obvious to see the through line for what you ended up doing. I mean, beauty, but aesthetics more broadly, like making things appealing to the eye.
- [07:01]
Bobbi Brown
Is what you ended up doing, which is really ironic. And, you know, as a makeup artist, I would even do shoots in, like, famous people's homes where Architectural Digest or someone was shooting it. And so I was also surrounded with these amazing, you know, designers and, you know, prop stylists. So I kind of take that, you know, personal. And I walk into my house, everything has to look a certain way. It's a very visual thing. It's really important to me, and it kind of settles me down. And part of it is from my mom, and part of it is just working with a lot of professionals with really trained eyes.
- [07:42]
Rachel Martin
I am curious. Do you remember the first time you put makeup on? And was your mom present for that?
- [07:47]
Bobbi Brown
Oh, 100%. I mean, my mother always let me play with her makeup. And her famous story was she said. She gave me a box of her old makeup and a pad of paper and said, you know, go draw me a picture. And when she came upstairs, I didn't touch the paper, but my Face was covered, and she said, I knew you were gonna be a makeup artist. That was her story. I don't know if that's true or not, but that was a story she always told. Ah, that's a good one.
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Rachel Martin
Okay, three more cards in this round. 1, 2, or 3?
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Bobbi Brown
I haven't picked one yet, so I'm going 1.
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Rachel Martin
1. What's a piece of advice you were smart to ignore?
- [08:26]
Bobbi Brown
Oh, that no one needs another makeup company. When I told someone I was gonna start a makeup company, this guy said, the world doesn't need another cosmetics company. And he could have been right, but I proved him wrong. When I started Bobby Brown, there were not brands on the market that weren't Estee Lauder, Lancome, you know, Chanel, there was not, like, young. Now they call it indie brands. So I was a young indie brand before there was a name for it.
- [09:01]
Rachel Martin
How young were you at the time?
- [09:04]
Bobbi Brown
I was about 34, 33. I actually started doing a line of lipsticks when I was. When I had my first baby. So I was 32 when my first baby was born. So I would be on the phone with editors giving tips how to wear makeup and look fabulous as my newborn baby was throwing up on top of me and trying to pretend I didn't have a baby.
- [09:31]
Rachel Martin
Right.
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Bobbi Brown
That I was just this fabulous person. You know, that was the time when.
- [09:36]
Rachel Martin
I didn't advertise motherhood. No, no, no, no, no.
- [09:38]
Bobbi Brown
And I was living in the suburbs of New Jersey. People didn't do that. Why would Vogue write about someone living in the suburbs? So I didn't make a big deal about it. And I'll never forget, slowly, I started talking about what it's like to be a working mom and how I put makeup on as a working mom. And those things pretty much started the popularity of the first brand, because there was other commuting mothers that were trying to get it together. It wasn't. You know, I think I had something to do with changing the narrative that it wasn't all about, you know, fabulosity all the time.
- [10:15]
Rachel Martin
Yeah.
- [10:16]
Bobbi Brown
It was literally. It was real life. And so that's how really I marketed my first company.
- [10:23]
Rachel Martin
And part of your origin story is that you were making makeup that wasn't. I mean, you had all this experience working in high fashion and doing these amazing, elaborate photo shoots with lots of makeup, where you focus on the makeup, and your whole thing was like, what if we just didn't do that? What if we just, like, minimized it? Which was revolutionary at the time. Now we take it for granted because everyone is like, natural, natural, natural. But it was a huge deal when you did that.
- [10:51]
Bobbi Brown
Yeah, I remember there was a cover of a magazine I did where I don't know even what got into me. No one discussed it. I just did her makeup. I put a pencil inside her eye and I took a bronzer and I kind of put it all over her face, on her lips, on her cheeks, on her eyes. Gave her some mascara and oh, my God, she looks so pretty. I mean, this girl must have been 19 years old. And they shot the picture. Oh, Bobby, it's so beautiful. And it became a cover and I was, like, thrilled. And I remember showing it to a top makeup artist. Look at, look at my cover. What do you think? And he says, oh, that's not makeup. That's gonna. That people want. If you do makeup like that, you're not gonna work in this town. But I kept doing it.
- [11:37]
Rachel Martin
Also, we should say men. I mean, there's a lot of men telling you.
- [11:43]
Bobbi Brown
Yes.
- [11:44]
Rachel Martin
How to do makeup and what women want.
- [11:46]
Bobbi Brown
Men. Suits. Men in suits telling you men in really nice suits. Yeah, there was token women, but they were mostly men. You know, there were token women and there was a lot of women, you know, that just. And a lot of men that just said, yes, yes. I was kind of the one that said, no, I don't think that's right. I don't think people want that. I don't think people need that, you know, and let me figure out what the needs are in the market that you're asking me for and let me try to do it my way.
- [12:28]
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- [14:04]
Rachel Martin
Okay, we're going to pause the game to talk about your new book. It is called Still Bobby. I mean, you have done this once or twice before, but this is, correct me if I'm wrong the first time. You've really just turned the lens inward and written. There's memoir throughout lots of your books. But this is an explicit memoir, right?
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Bobbi Brown
This is my story.
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Rachel Martin
Yeah. You wrote in the acknowledgments that you think everybody should do it. Like it's a great thing to be able to sit and write your story. What was gratifying about it?
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Bobbi Brown
Well, first of all, it's really cathartic because I'm not someone. I don't go to therapy, you know, I have in my life, but I don't. And just understanding, you know, how the roads are all connected, it was very, you know, therapeutic. But also telling this story, even if, you know and everyone's got a story, all of my friends who have either started companies or worked for companies or been artists, you don't just wake up and become a 50 year old person or a 60 year old person. There's ways to get there. And I think it's a nice gift to be able to give your kids or grandkids.
- [15:14]
Rachel Martin
Yeah, I loved the book. I found it really inspiring how you built this huge global brand. But it seemed to me that you have sort of subverted your entire industry to some degree by saying, you know, you don't actually need makeup and like, you're beautiful as you are. How do those two things coexist for you? You're beautiful as you are, but also by my bronzer.
- [15:44]
Bobbi Brown
Okay, well, first of all, I didn't intentionally try to subvert the industry. I just had these beliefs and it was like, oh, this makes such sense to me. How about you find a foundation that is the color of your skin? I mean, I'm sorry, that wasn't a known thing. People would do this, you know, you gotta wear, you know, something to correct the color of your skin. No, you need a foundation. The color of your skin. How about a blush? You need a blush that is the color of your cheeks when you pinch them, that's like your natural colors. You need a lipstick that is the color of your lips. So those tips a made, I thought made people look better. And I never said don't wear makeup ever. I mean, ever, ever. Because there's many days I don't wear makeup, and when I look in the mirror, I'm like, oh, my God, I need something. And whether it's just on my cheeks or under my eyes, I look and feel so much better when I have something on. So I think looking like yourself, first of all, your makeup looks great. My makeup? Yes. Yes. Did you do it yourself or did someone do it?
- [16:54]
Rachel Martin
Yes, I did. Bobby Brown.
- [16:56]
Bobbi Brown
Yeah.
- [16:57]
Rachel Martin
I did spend an extra five minutes today. I was a little insert as I was talking to you.
- [17:01]
Bobbi Brown
Yeah. Okay, you did it. Cause often when makeup artists do people's makeup, they don't have the natural touch. And sometimes. And I think people could do a better job doing themselves if they know how to do it. Unless it's a makeup artist that understands. Not all makeup artists understands how to make people look, you know, glowy and vibrant.
- [17:24]
Rachel Martin
Yeah. So as you said, you're not one for therapy, but writing the book itself was this cathartic experience. It is interesting when you write a life, when you write a memoir. I haven't done it, but I know many people who have. You start to, in retrospect, see patterns, or you learn something about yourself that you may not have realized. Did that happen for you? Was there a specific thing you learned about yourself that maybe you didn't understand until you saw it all laid out like that?
- [17:55]
Bobbi Brown
I mean, I think there was a lot of things, you know, certainly, like looking back at my Papa Sam, who came from Russia to this country, not knowing my grandfather, not knowing anyone, not, you know, having any help. And he just kind of figured things out along the way and tried things that weren't, you know, like, traditional. But I learned about myself that, oh, I kind of do things similar to Papa Sam. Like, I never thought I was like Papa Sam, and I was very much like his wife, my grandmother, Nana. You know, she had the warm, fuzzy, caring, like, you know, her family was everything. So I'm kind of a combination of both of those guys, you know? And then you. It's like a recipe. Then you add my mom, and then you add my dad in there, and I see those things. And then I met my husband, and then he kind of adapted my recipe in a good way.
- [18:52]
Rachel Martin
Yeah. It's kind of thrilling, right? When you look Back. And you're like, oh, there is. Genes are strong, and you see them play out, and then they manifest in you. And you're like, oh, I am a combination of all these people who I loved. And that's, like, such a lovely thing.
- [19:08]
Bobbi Brown
And I somehow overcompensated by taking things a different way and using my grit to do things. Because I could have been different, right? I could have stayed living in Chicago suburbs and got married and been a suburban housewife. I could have been. But I didn't. And I kind of, you know. And a lot of it is I did. And a lot of it is because my dad just always said, you could do this. He wanted me to go to college in Spain. I was like, why would I want to go to college in Spain and not, you know, become a American college student? But he always wanted me to experience the greater things in life.
- [19:47]
Rachel Martin
He was bold.
- [19:48]
Bobbi Brown
Yeah, he was bold. He still is. And he. You know, he's still there watching me. And he's. You know, I think he's amazed. And he always says, you're not done.
- [19:59]
Rachel Martin
That's a lovely thing. Congrats again on the book. You feel like playing more game?
- [20:04]
Bobbi Brown
Sure.
- [20:04]
Rachel Martin
Okay, so this is round two. Insights. This round is about insights. 1, 2 or 3?
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Bobbi Brown
1.
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Rachel Martin
1. Has competition done more to help you or hurt you?
- [20:21]
Bobbi Brown
Definitely help.
- [20:22]
Rachel Martin
Yeah.
- [20:23]
Bobbi Brown
I love competition. Yeah, it keeps you on your toes. It keeps you on your toes. I'm smart enough to not copy what other people are doing. Cause that just makes you look like you're a loser. But I find that competition just makes you be better. And, you know, I'm a little. I don't know what the word is. I do think what I do is better when it comes to makeup. You know, my son asked me to not keep naming things the best. Like, we have the best eyeshadow, the best brown pencil. He's like, mom, you gotta stop. I said, okay.
- [21:01]
Rachel Martin
It's like the breaking news banner on a cable news channel. When everything becomes breaking news, then nothing is breaking news. Everything is the best lipstick. Then nothing is the best.
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Bobbi Brown
Right? Right. And if it's not the best, I'm gonna reformulate it. Like, I'm.
- [21:15]
Rachel Martin
Oh, is that your response? Like, no, it must be.
- [21:18]
Bobbi Brown
I mean, it's still. I still believe that our brown pencil is the best brown pencil I ever used. It's not complicated, guys. It's a brown pencil, but it's really good because there's not red in it. There's not orange. It's not dry. It's not greasy. It's the best brown pencil.
- [21:34]
Rachel Martin
Were you always competitive? Like, does that go back to, you know.
- [21:38]
Bobbi Brown
I don't think so, because I couldn't be competitive in sports. I wasn't very good. I couldn't be competitive with my friends. You know, I just. So I don't think I've always been competitive. I think I started realizing how good I was at certain things and that I was, you know, I had the ability to get better, and then I got competitive.
- [22:05]
Rachel Martin
Yeah.
- [22:05]
Bobbi Brown
I'm like, okay, watch me. I mean, I still have that. I'm 68 years old, and I'm like, yeah, watch me. And sometimes it's to myself. Sometimes it's to my husband or my son. Other times, you know, it's to the world. It depends.
- [22:20]
Rachel Martin
Okay, one more in this round. 1. 2 or 3?
- [22:23]
Bobbi Brown
3.
- [22:24]
Rachel Martin
3. What have you found surprising about getting older?
- [22:33]
Bobbi Brown
The texture of your skin. I'm like, whoa, tell me about it. But, you know, just like, I'm competitive. I'm like, all right, what can I do that's gonna make a difference? So there's hydration, there's moisture. Now there are, like, you know, lasers and all sorts of things. I'm like, I'm not going down easy. I'm sorry. I'm not going down easy. And guess what?
- [22:58]
Rachel Martin
But you're beautiful just as you are.
- [23:01]
Bobbi Brown
I am, but my skin isn't. So, you know. But you know what I don't wear. I wear shorts all the time. I don't wear them in public. You know, I don't wear sleeveless, but I never did wear sleeveless, you know, So I have a trainer. I do weights to keep strong. And it's funny, I haven't done it for a couple weeks, and I'm like, all right, I gotta get back in those heavy, heavy weights. The biggest. Honestly, the biggest surprise that no one tells you are I don't feel my age. And I don't think I look my age all the time. But the changes that happen naturally are, like, a little surprising.
- [23:38]
Rachel Martin
But I'm genuinely interested because you are who you are, and you work where you work. You can't win this race like age does. We're all gonna die. We're all gonna get really old. Hopefully, that's the best case scenario, is that we all get.
- [23:53]
Bobbi Brown
Yeah, but hopefully we'll get old better, you know, because my son was a strength and conditioning coach, I really learned and understood how training my body. Not like a crazy athlete, but someone that, you know, is conditioned to be able to get up off the floor, you know, to get up out of a low chair, to put my suitcase on top of something. I mean, all of those things, you know, it's strength and mobility. Those are really important. So yeah, muscles are important, but all those other things are even more important.
- [24:23]
Rachel Martin
So I hear you saying there are things I can work on as a person and as a woman getting older. There are things I can do. Are there things about the aging process that you have just accepted as inevitable and you're okay with them?
- [24:38]
Bobbi Brown
What are those, the lines in my face?
- [24:41]
Rachel Martin
Yeah.
- [24:41]
Bobbi Brown
Yeah, the lines in my face. Because, yes, I can go get Botox. I don't want to. I can do soft wave and lasers that tighten your jawline. Yes, I will do those. There are things. And when my skin looks dehydrated, I could put a mask on it. I could, you know, exfoliate. I could do those things. So there's just knowing what you can change, but other things you just have to accept.
- [25:25]
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- [26:26]
Rachel Martin
The following message come from Dignity Memorial. For many families, remembering loved ones means honoring the details that made them unique. Dignity Memorial is dedicated to professionalism and compassion in every detail of a life celebration. Find a provider near you@dignitymemorial.com really quickly before we get back to the show. We've been asking folks to rate and review Wildcard recently, and it has been genuinely amazing to see what people have written. Rose Langston wrote the following this show revives my love for humanity. I love the question so much that I've written many down with a plan to write personal essays. I, and hopefully my family will enjoy having a window into my authentic middle Aged self for years to come. I love that rose. And thank you to everyone who has written and shared what you love about the show. It's so fun to read them, and it really helps our show find new audiences. If you haven't taken the time yet, please consider pausing this episode and doing it now in your podcasting app. Okay, back to the show. Okay, last round. This is beliefs. This is the beliefs round. Here we go. One, two or three?
- [27:41]
Bobbi Brown
Two, two.
- [27:44]
Rachel Martin
We're just going right for it. What's the most religious thing about you?
- [27:53]
Bobbi Brown
I celebrate all the holidays.
- [27:55]
Rachel Martin
You do?
- [27:56]
Bobbi Brown
I celebrate Hanukkah, Christmas, Diwali. Oh, all of them. You know, I celebrate all of them.
- [28:03]
Rachel Martin
I thought you were just. You celebrate, you know, just the holidays in your religious tradition?
- [28:10]
Bobbi Brown
No, I celebrate all of them. I'm very lucky. I have an Indian daughter in law. I have another daughter in law who's, you know, I don't have a Jewish daughter in law, put it that way. And so I'm lucky. I get these other cultures and, you know, I'm one of these people that likes things different. I find it interesting. I don't need to be around people that are like me. And, you know, I actually really like to spend time with people who have incredibly different political beliefs than I do. I have no problem with it. I think you're allowed to have people in your life that have different beliefs and it's okay to talk about them.
- [28:53]
Rachel Martin
Yeah. Was yours a religious family growing up?
- [28:56]
Bobbi Brown
Not really. I mean, my brother was bar mitzvahed, but the girls were not. And we went to the high holidays once a year or twice a year, the two different holidays. And we went to our. Traditionally went to our aunts and our cousins for all the holidays, and that was always it. And then, you know, I always just loved Christmas. How do you not love Christmas? So, you know, we had.
- [29:24]
Rachel Martin
Did you have a Christmas tree growing up?
- [29:27]
Bobbi Brown
Not growing up, but my husband and I did when my kids were little. And, you know, one of my sons actually ridiculed us for it, so we stopped. But then we. Because he didn't think it was Jewish.
- [29:37]
Rachel Martin
You can't.
- [29:38]
Bobbi Brown
Well, yeah, he was young and he said, mom. So we didn't do it. And we got a dog who wasn't Jewish. So then we started getting Christmas trees again to celebrate our dog.
- [29:49]
Rachel Martin
So.
- [29:49]
Bobbi Brown
Yes.
- [29:50]
Rachel Martin
Right. I mean, it's not our fault. It's what the dog wants. What are we gonna do?
- [29:55]
Bobbi Brown
I always did Easter eggs for my kids, but then we had people over for Passover, so I Hated spending the time reading the book, so we got the kids version. And everything I learned about Passover and Hanukkah was from the Rugrats.
- [30:11]
Rachel Martin
The TV show.
- [30:12]
Bobbi Brown
The Rugrats. So, so educational.
- [30:16]
Rachel Martin
So it sounds. You appreciate the act of bringing your family together and having an excuse to be with them and celebrate, but you have not needed to assign to those holidays any kind of religious. Religious grounding. Religious meaning.
- [30:31]
Bobbi Brown
No, my religion is being a good, caring, nice person. That's what I believe in.
- [30:36]
Rachel Martin
And you don't need a theology to tell you that.
- [30:39]
Bobbi Brown
I don't. I don't. Yeah. And my dream is to be in the Hanukkah song with Adam Sandler, who I recently met and told him that's my dream. So if he ever does another Hanukkah song, that's my dream.
- [30:51]
Rachel Martin
You just want to be a reference. You don't want to do a duet with it. You don't want to sing.
- [30:54]
Bobbi Brown
Oh, no, I can't sing. As a matter of fact, not only can I not sing, but I thought I could until my fifth grade music teacher during practice came over to me and she said, come here. And I thought she was gonna tell me how great I was. She said, tonight. Could you mouth the words shut up?
- [31:10]
Rachel Martin
She did not.
- [31:11]
Bobbi Brown
Isn't that awful?
- [31:12]
Rachel Martin
That is.
- [31:13]
Bobbi Brown
I still can't sing Happy Birthday.
- [31:15]
Rachel Martin
No, because you were traumatized. Because I was traumatized.
- [31:18]
Bobbi Brown
That was trauma.
- [31:18]
Rachel Martin
You killed your voice.
- [31:20]
Bobbi Brown
Yeah. That was trauma. Yeah.
- [31:22]
Rachel Martin
I feel really sad about that because I think everybody has a song in their heart, and we should not judge people's voices because it's like a natural, beautiful thing to do.
- [31:30]
Bobbi Brown
Right.
- [31:31]
Rachel Martin
Damn that person. Now I want you to sing it with Adam Sandler. Okay. Three more cards. One, two or three?
- [31:38]
Bobbi Brown
Well, I'm gonna do three. Cause it's my favorite number.
- [31:40]
Rachel Martin
Okay. When do you feel connected to the people you've lost?
- [31:47]
Bobbi Brown
On holidays.
- [31:48]
Rachel Martin
Yeah.
- [31:49]
Bobbi Brown
On their birthdays. On holidays. Yeah. And certainly in this book, I feel, you know, I have been having urges to call my mom. Yeah.
- [31:59]
Rachel Martin
That's a strong one, isn't it?
- [32:00]
Bobbi Brown
Yeah. I'm like, oh, I should call my mom. And I'm like, I can't.
- [32:04]
Rachel Martin
Yeah. A thing will come up still. My mom's been gone, like 15 years, and a specific thing will happen, a very small thing. Right. Like my kid does well at something, or there's something about her family that I've forgotten. Right.
- [32:22]
Bobbi Brown
Like a detail.
- [32:23]
Rachel Martin
Like, oh, right. Was your grandma. Did she live in Kansas or Oklahoma?
- [32:28]
Bobbi Brown
Right.
- [32:28]
Rachel Martin
And I'm like, oh, I Just. Oh, right. And it's so funny how it still happens so many years.
- [32:33]
Bobbi Brown
I know.
- [32:33]
Rachel Martin
Later.
- [32:34]
Bobbi Brown
And it's funny. Mine's always about guilt. Like, I feel guilty that. Oh, my God, I haven't talked to her in a while. Oh, interesting. You know, Right. Cause I'm like, not guilt, but, you know, I was always so busy with my kids and with work, and I'm like, you know, And I would call my mom in the car just to make sure I kept in touch.
- [32:49]
Rachel Martin
Yeah. She was proud of you.
- [32:53]
Bobbi Brown
She was really proud of me. She was really proud of me. She really wanted me to open a Bobby Brown store in her retirement community.
- [33:03]
Rachel Martin
You didn't do it?
- [33:04]
Bobbi Brown
I did not do it, no. And then I got. She got a little bit of dementia at the end of her life, and it took her a while to understand that I wasn't with Bobby Brown anymore and I was with Jones Road, you know.
- [33:16]
Rachel Martin
So your kids got to know your mom, right?
- [33:19]
Bobbi Brown
My kids got to know my mom. But they, you know, unfortunately, they knew my mom not in a healthy way. You know, she was struggling, you know?
- [33:27]
Rachel Martin
Do you work to fill in the blanks of things you want them to know about these people? I mean.
- [33:32]
Bobbi Brown
Well, now they gotta read the book now. Oh, good one. Ah. And then they could ask questions. No, I mean, I. My kids all love photos, and I have this incredible photo archive of every part of my life. And so on Mother's Day, I always sit down with my kids and have them look at the old photo albums.
- [33:52]
Rachel Martin
That's a good one. You're good at that. You did them yourself?
- [33:56]
Bobbi Brown
Oh, yeah. I'm a nutcase.
- [33:58]
Rachel Martin
How are you?
- [33:58]
Bobbi Brown
And now I have a digital archive that I am constantly. I've got it all figured out. I mean, even what I'm shooting now. Like, you'll be in my archive. You know, it'll be under.
- [34:09]
Rachel Martin
I can't wait for your grandkids to.
- [34:11]
Bobbi Brown
Be like, this was Rachel Martin from and Beyond. No, I did. I took a picture of. Of your poster, and I'm gonna take a picture of you right now, actually.
- [34:21]
Rachel Martin
Oh, my God.
- [34:22]
Bobbi Brown
No, I'm telling you, I'm gonna be.
- [34:24]
Rachel Martin
In, like, your fam. Okay, now I'm nervous.
- [34:26]
Bobbi Brown
Smile. No, because when I'm smiling.
- [34:29]
Rachel Martin
Did you do my cheese for some. I did my cheese first. Smile.
- [34:31]
Bobbi Brown
No, you look gorgeous. When I look for something, I'm like, oh, right. During the Still Bobby book tour when I went on npr. So it's gotta be in a folder. It's on Dropbox, and I'll look up still Bobby. And then I'll go. I'll look at npr.
- [34:47]
Rachel Martin
Oh, my God. You're, like, the most organized person I've ever met in my life.
- [34:52]
Bobbi Brown
But if you literally walk into my bedroom on any given day, it's a mess. Like, literally, you know, does a mess.
- [34:59]
Rachel Martin
For you mean, like, oh, my God, there's, like, one dress laying a skewer on my bed.
- [35:02]
Bobbi Brown
Oh, no, my bed's not made. Or, you know. You know, I have. I have someone that cleans my house twice a week. I mean, truthfully, you know, and those days when I come home, I'm so happy. Because who has time to make everything look perfect?
- [35:17]
Rachel Martin
I mean, I don't. This is.
- [35:18]
Bobbi Brown
The whole.
- [35:19]
Rachel Martin
Perfection is a lie.
- [35:21]
Bobbi Brown
Yes.
- [35:23]
Rachel Martin
Okay, last question. 1, 2, or 3?
- [35:26]
Bobbi Brown
3.
- [35:26]
Rachel Martin
3. What truth guides your life more than any other?
- [35:35]
Bobbi Brown
That's exactly it. Truth. It's not easy hearing or telling the truth, but it's really important.
- [35:44]
Rachel Martin
Wow, that's a great answer.
- [35:45]
Bobbi Brown
Yeah. Yeah, it is. And I want people to tell me the truth. If I ask you if you like something, I need to know, Right? Like, tell me the truth. Like, so many people are afraid to tell someone something that maybe is not easy to hear.
- [36:01]
Rachel Martin
It makes you uncomfortable or challenges your.
- [36:04]
Bobbi Brown
And it's just. And it's also a waste of time. Like, you know, just tell me the truth so we can get on with it.
- [36:09]
Rachel Martin
Right. We end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. You pick one moment from your past to revisit. It's not a moment you would change anything about. It's just a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. Which moment do you choose?
- [36:41]
Bobbi Brown
It's a tough one because there's three births and a wedding.
- [36:45]
Rachel Martin
That's right.
- [36:47]
Bobbi Brown
And those are my three favorite moments in life. My three children's births and my wedding to my husband. So since I can't choose one of those three, I'm gonna choose my wedding.
- [36:59]
Rachel Martin
Okay, tell me a moment in the wedding.
- [37:02]
Bobbi Brown
Oh, there are so many moments I remember. And there is a picture. And there is a picture of it. My first dance with my husband. First of all, I wore a white wedding dress. Mini. Mini. And my legs were good. Then it wasn't, like, micro mini, but it did not touch my knees. I did not wear stockings, which all the. Apparently, all the aunts went, she's not wearing stockings. I wore white, really cheap shoes because I knew they were gonna go in the grass and get ruined. So I wore these very practical disposable shoes and the first dance and my husband and I, I have a picture of us, our noses touching. It's still one of my favorite photos. I know exactly where it is in my Dropbox and I just never felt more in love and more that this is where I was supposed to be.
- [38:10]
Rachel Martin
Still Bobby is the name of Bobby Brown's new memoir. It's out September 23rd.
- [38:15]
Bobbi Brown
Thank you.
- [38:15]
Rachel Martin
Thank you for doing this.
- [38:17]
Bobbi Brown
Thank you for having me.
- [38:28]
Rachel Martin
If you enjoyed this conversation, you should go back and listen to the episode we did with actor Issa Rae. Issa is also a mogul with her own production company and she knows how to bring her distinct vision into reality. I loved the conversation that we had together. It was super empowering and also incredibly fun. Today's episode was produced by Summer Tamad and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to us@wildcardpr.org and we're going to shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.
- [39:14]
NPR Sponsor Announcer
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