Wild Card with Rachel Martin — Brandi Carlile

Episode Date: October 30, 2025
Podcast: NPR’s Wild Card with Rachel Martin
Guest: Brandi Carlile

Episode Overview

This episode features acclaimed singer-songwriter Brandi Carlile, fresh off the release of her new album "Returning to Myself." In true Wild Card fashion, Rachel Martin and Brandi dive into the big questions of life—identity, family, love, aging, and meaning—by drawing cards with prompts designed to spark honest self-reflection. As they shuffle through the deck, Brandi shares candid stories about her upbringing, her journey as an artist, her close-knit chosen family, her spiritual beliefs, and her complicated, joyful approach to life and artistry. The episode vibrates with warmth, candor, and the kind of chemistry that makes even the weightiest topics feel inviting.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Joy (and Surprise) of Aging

[01:08], [31:27]

• Brandi opens and circles back to the idea that growing older has been unexpectedly wonderful. She embraces her changing face and feels more at home in herself:

  “What I found surprising about getting older is that I really like it. I like the way it feels in my heart and mind. I like the way I look, like the way my face looks.” — Brandi ([01:08], [31:32])

• She acknowledges the physical annoyances but feels the benefits—freedom, self-assurance—outweigh the drawbacks.

  “All that is better than not being sore, honestly.” — Brandi ([33:56])

2. Birth Order, Identity, and Family Secrets

[02:48] – [08:35]

• As the eldest child, Brandi describes herself as someone with “an inflated sense of self-importance,” always taking responsibility and aspiring toward leadership.

  “I have a penchant for matriarchy and I strive…to be in a leadership role whenever I can, and I get into trouble with those concepts.” — Brandi ([02:55])

• Brandi reveals a family bombshell: discovering as a teen that she had an older half-sister no one discussed. She took it upon herself to find and invite her into the family:

  “I found her for my father and my brothers and sisters. I felt like…it was my job…and I called her…I invited this stranger to my house for, like, a week.” ([05:29])

• The experience reinforced her identity as the “eldest,” even after meeting her older sister:

  “I still felt like the oldest, even though she’s older than me. I don’t know why.” — Brandi ([06:04])

3. Coming of Age & Self-Discovery

[09:05] – [14:37]

• Brandi’s teen years were defined by coming out (at 15, inspired in part by Ellen DeGeneres), cutting her hair, and claiming her identity despite a lack of role models:

  "It was 1997 when everybody came out because Ellen DeGeneres came out...That sort of like self-assuredness was the first time I think I ever really shone." — Brandi ([09:29])

• Getting a record deal in her early 20s was a pivotal transformation, instilling awe at how vast the world is—and launching her artistic career with a constant, “foregone conclusion” feeling that she would succeed:

  “I always felt I had made it or was in the process of making it and that it was a foregone conclusion. It just never occurred to me that it wouldn't...happen." — Brandi ([14:04])

4. Community, Chosen Family, and “Codependence”

[20:11] – [23:34]

• Brandi lives on a property with a sprawling, intertwined community—her band, their families, relatives, and even her ex:

  “I've lived in the same log cabin since I was 21…I have twin brothers in my band…they are also my next door neighbors…my wife Kathryn, she’s got two sisters…[they] married people in my band…And then my ex girlfriend lives also next door. That's very lesbian.” ([20:26]–[21:38])

• She talks about learning that it’s okay to belong to others, and how different forms of retreat and restoration work for different people.

  “I don't think that's codependent. That's what I think I've learned…the U shaped journey is that actually it's okay to just belong to other human beings.” — Brandi ([22:02])

• Brandi’s content to “retreat right in front of you”—her form of togetherness and solitude.

5. Artistic Growth & Reinvention: “Killing the Entertainer”

[16:27] – [19:30]

• On her new album, Brandi deliberately sheds her prior artist identity to start fresh, echoing icons who reinvent themselves:

  "If you can address and almost kill identity—your prior identity as an artist…That's how I feel. Like I’ve never done it before." — Brandi ([16:42]) "To keep that [spark] fresh, you have to kind of kill the entertainer in you every…so often. That’s what I’ve done. And she’ll come back…But right now, she’s not there, and it needs to be that way." ([17:36]–[18:46])

• She likens this process to a “U-shaped” transformation—diving into her core self and resurfacing, changed, ultimately concluding that “I belong to other people.”

  “You go in there saying, ‘Who am I?’ and you come out saying, ‘I’m yours, you know, I belong to other people.’ That’s what I want for my life.” ([19:30])

6. Finding Equilibrium Between Public and Private Selves

[26:26] – [31:11]

• Brandi describes two powerful, sometimes competing, internal drives: the performer and the solitary fisherwoman. She worked with a therapist to integrate these selves, a process that helped her stop getting physically sick during moments of stress:

  “She basically told me to, like, close my eyes and envision myself…on the stage…And then she asked me to visualize the opposite self…in rain gear…on a fishing boat…And I had to have those two women have a conversation…'Are you willing to coexist?'…And that is how I stopped getting sick and letting pressure drive me to…[be] in the wrong place.” ([28:26]–[30:50])

• Balance is the ongoing answer:

  “That equilibrium between the two halves of you.” — Rachel ([31:07])

7. Love as Action, Not Just Feeling

[35:08] – [36:23]

• With age, Brandi reframes love as an active practice—commitment and fidelity—more than a feeling:

  “Love isn’t a feeling…Love is an action…It’s a commitment to a certain kind of fidelity and an honoring of someone else, even if that someone doesn’t love you. And that frees you from wondering what this means if the feeling changes.” — Brandi ([35:21])

• Her most powerful love lessons come from her marriage, children, and learning to love people “[whose] feelings don’t love those people, but my actions have to.” ([37:14])

8. Faith & Spiritual Transformation

[43:57] – [47:34]

• Brandi speaks candidly about prayer and spirituality being her main guard against despair:

  “My best defense against despair is singing and praying…I just hit my knees any time of day, wherever I am…ask God to be the outcome of whatever it is that I’m about to do.” ([44:01])

• She describes how her faith evolved from childhood, through struggles with religious trauma and her coming out, to a grounded spirituality inspired by writers like Richard Rohr and Rachel Held Evans:

  "So like Kim Ritchie says, I lost my religion and I found my faith." ([47:32])

9. Living in the Moment & The ‘Audacity’ of Self-Belief

[40:13] – [42:59]

• Raised by impulsive parents and within an environment shaped by addiction, Brandi says she’s “in the moment all the time” and sometimes to a fault:

  “If I have $100, I will spend $100. If I have something I want, I will get that thing with absolutely no thought to what I’ll do the very next day…” ([41:25])

• She attributes her confidence (sometimes bordering on audacity) to a “lack of intelligence”—a necessary, almost childlike self-belief similar to athletes who don’t let themselves consider failure:

  “The confidence that it takes to do my job is like a lack of intelligence. It’s not like an extra layer of it.” ([41:44])

10. Joy and Universality of Music & Karaoke

[47:56] – [49:44]

• The experience Brandi wishes for everyone: singing in front of an audience.

  “I wish every single person could get up in front of an audience and sing…There’s not much more in the world that gives you that feeling of love and safety and just being understood.” ([47:56])

• She and Rachel gush about karaoke, particularly in creating communal, transcendent moments for ordinary people:

  “Everyone can sing karaoke…You want to take that experience up a notch? Gay bar karaoke, dude.” — Brandi ([49:44])

11. Most Haunting, Powerful Memory: On Stage with Joni Mitchell

[50:17] – [53:00]

• Brandi’s most cherished “memory time machine” moment is sitting next to Joni Mitchell for the final time as she performed "Both Sides Now" at the Hollywood Bowl, a bittersweet transition marking both pride and grief.

  “That got to be my role…with Joni when she sings that otherworldly once every thousand year song. And I go back there and I feel like so proud and kind of grief stricken at the same time…” ([50:17])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On aging and embracing herself:

  “I always believed I was older, and now I sort of feel like I’m coming into a zone that I prefer being in.” — Brandi ([31:32])

• On the shock and connection of meeting her older sister:

  “The minute I saw her, I knew her…But I still felt like the oldest, even though she’s older than me.” — Brandi ([06:03])

• On her community life:

  “We do our holidays together and we do our loss together…and we have fights…and have interventions…” — Brandi ([22:00])

• On love’s evolution:

  “It means the feeling changed, it doesn’t mean the love changed. And…if love is something you do, that’s powerful…” — Brandi ([35:21])

• On performance as spiritual connection:

  “I wish every single person could get up in front of an audience and sing…that feeling of love and safety and just being understood.” — Brandi ([47:54])

• On her most powerful artistic memory:

  “Shotgun seat next to Joni freakin’ Mitchell for the last time while she sang Both Sides Now. And I knew it was the last time…so proud and kind of grief stricken at the same time…” — Brandi ([50:17])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:08] — Brandi on the joys and surprises of getting older
• [02:48] — Birth order and the family secret of her older sister
• [09:05] — Teenage coming out, self-acceptance, and symbolism of cutting her hair
• [14:04] — On early career confidence and “willful ignorance”
• [16:42] — Letting go of prior identities as an artist ("kill the entertainer")
• [19:30] — “U-shaped” personal journeys and the importance of community
• [20:26] — Brandi’s unconventional, close-knit extended family
• [22:17] — Differences in solitude needs; learning to “retreat” among people
• [26:26] — Reconciling performing self and private self (“proper Gemini”)
• [31:27] — Embracing age and its boons
• [35:08] — What age teaches about love as commitment and action
• [40:13] — Living in the moment (sometimes impulsively)
• [44:01] — Defenses against despair: singing and prayer
• [47:32] — Losing religion, finding faith anew
• [47:54] — The wish that everyone could sing for an audience
• [50:17] — Time machine moment: The last time on stage with Joni Mitchell

Tone and Style

The conversation is openhearted, intimate, playful, and sometimes marvelously meandering—full of surprises, bighearted philosophy, and the kind of self-deprecating humor and genuine wonder that Brandi is known for. Rachel creates a space for vulnerability and celebration, drawing out both the everyday quirks and the extraordinary journeys in Brandi’s life.

In short:
This episode is a masterclass in self-reflection, embracing change, and finding purpose and belonging—whether on a stage, in a family, in oneself, or at a piano bar, singing your heart out.