Brett Goldstein (Encore)

Summary

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Wild Card with Rachel Martin – Brett Goldstein (Encore)

Air Date: August 6, 2026
Host: Rachel Martin (NPR)
Guest: Brett Goldstein – Writer, actor (Ted Lasso, Shrinking), comedian, podcaster

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Episode Overview

This encore episode features the irreverent yet deeply sincere Brett Goldstein, celebrated for his roles and writing in "Ted Lasso" and "Shrinking," as well as his new HBO stand-up special, "The Second Best Night of Your Life." Rachel Martin guides Brett through personal, funny, and profound questions drawn from her Wild Card deck, touching on love, family, belief, vulnerability, the legacy of art, and death. Goldstein’s signature blend of candor, wit, and philosophical reflection makes for a rich, therapeutic conversation about humanity, creativity, and the things we rarely say out loud.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Loving Through Curiosity and Writing

• Theme: The vital importance of empathy in writing and relationships.
  • Brett shares, “My one sort of rule of writing is you have to love all your characters. You have to. Even if you're writing the worst people in the world, you, the writer, have to write them with love.” (01:42)
• Family Tradition:
  • Brett recalls his father’s peculiar ‘Trevor’ game—where everyone in the family was given the name "Trevor" with a different adjective, a ritual full of mystery and humor.
    • “I don't know where the fuck Trevor came from.” (04:46)
    • Memorable ET ride moment: “ET was just going, thank you, Trevor. Trevor, Trevor, Trevor. This is funny.” (04:36)

2. Awe and Spirituality – The Sun as God

• Brett describes a formative moment watching a sunset in Barbados, leading to an unexpected sense of gratitude and a shift from atheism to a spirituality focused on nature and the universe.
  • “Why do I feel the profound urge to say thank you? ...If there is nothing else, no God, why do I need to say thank you if this is all just absolutely random beauty?” (05:02)
  • “God is the sun, basically. All the religions are like middlemen... whereas the sun is just there.” (06:18)
• Practicing Gratitude:
  • “The words I use most are thank you and sorry.” (07:19)
  • On language essentials: “Please. Thank you. Sorry.” (07:38)

3. Stand-up Comedy vs. Other Creative Work

• Brett unpacks his enduring need for stand-up and the unique thrill live comedy offers compared to writing or acting.
  • “I've done stand up for like 17 years now... Even when I've been making shows and stuff, I still go and do stand up.” (09:33)
  • “Stand up is the opposite. I just had this thought, I could say it right now. Let's see what happens. I don't have to check with anyone.” (09:52)
  • “I think it's like heroin. The first time I did it, it was a huge, huge, huge rush. ...But when I don't do it, I feel depressed.” (10:53)
• Testing Material:
  • “My favorite thing to do is new material. It's not really saying, is this funny?... It’s, am I insane?” (11:04)
  • “If they don't laugh, then you truly feel insane.” (11:47)

4. The Return & Spirit of "Ted Lasso" and "Shrinking"

• On the emotional farewell to "Ted Lasso" (and its unexpected revival):
  • “We all cried. We all cried a lot. ...We had a funeral. Are you saying we can bring anything back? It’s too much power.” (13:20, 13:59)
• On set culture and ensemble chemistry (from "Shrinking" and "Ted Lasso"):
  • “[Showrunner] Bill Lawrence said to the cast: ‘I don’t want anyone going back to their trailers. You hang out. This show works based on you all getting on in real life.’ And I think that’s really true and a lovely way to work.” (14:53)
  • On writing “bad” characters: “Taking a bad person and then humanizing them and giving them love—and making it harder for an audience to hate them—is interesting to me.” (16:29)

5. Earnestness in Art

• Brett muses on sincerity in comedy:
  • “It’s easy to be cynical. It’s harder to be... I proudly think Shrinking is fucking funny... But it’s not embarrassed to be like, hey, man, hey guys, we got feelings and shit. Right?” (16:16–16:34)

6. Vulnerability, Grief, and Emotional Repression

• On triggering a good cry:
  • “The Stevie Wonder song 'Lately,' that’ll do me... It’s a very sad song. But it’s a beautiful tune. And he sounds really upset. He’s really singing like it’s happening.” (17:00)
• On emotions:
  • “I hate experiencing emotions and do my best to avoid them at all times. But I do go to the cinema alone to get them out.” (17:51, 18:03)
  • “No, I’m emotionally repressed.” (18:32)

7. The Evolution of Love and Empathy

• Brett reflects on growing empathy with age and a fundamental belief in the innate goodness within people:
  • “If you look hard enough at anyone, you can love them... I have to ask the right question, and I’m sure there is a key to this person that if I ask the right question, I will suddenly be flooded with love for them.” (01:08, 19:15)
  • On moving from dislike to affinity: “There’s a person I will instantly dislike... then something will happen... and suddenly I will fight to the death for that person.” (20:19)

8. Belief, Fate, and Coping with the Unexplainable

• Brett revisits his sunset epiphany, redefining “God” as the sun, a symbol for the universe (23:43–24:23)
• Grappling with fate vs. randomness:
  • “The impossibility of existence is... it’s hard to square the magical things with the terrible things.” (24:36)
  • On coping with tragedy: “When a really terrible thing happens, is it like an angel having a bad day? ...They had a plan... and then, oh fuck, I slipped. And now lots of people are dead.” (24:36–25:13)
  • On practicing gratitude: “You make your own world... if you’re paying attention, you go like, bigger picture.” (26:01)

9. Death, Afterlife, and Reincarnation

• “I think about death all the time. I do a podcast about death. ...I'm sure part of [my workaholism] is because I'm going to be dead soon, you know, got to get this shit done.” (27:17)

• On the afterlife:

  • “I think the closest version... is the Pixar film Soul... you go, you have some fun, and then you come back for a whole new adventure. Aztec, Mayan, Buddhist.” (28:13)
  • “I've had such a lucky time... Seems like this was a nice one. Next one, fuck knows. I’m going to be... a worm.” (28:53)

• Rachel shares her mother’s take on living after death (“living in the wind”):

  • “When my mom died, she was really good at creating this narrative... that she was gonna live in the wind. ...So helpful... Wind is everywhere.” (29:37)
  • “Do you talk to her in the wind? ...I love that.” – Brett (30:19)

10. Legacy & Artistic Immortality

• On the meaning of being remembered:
  • “Legacy, does it matter? Does anything matter? It’ll all be gone in a life cycle of 150 years.” (31:10)
  • On artistic immortality: “There’s something magical like reading a book from 200 years ago that... is like a hand reaching from the past to hold yours.” (31:49)
  • “You can’t go into [art] thinking, I hope this lives forever… Just make stuff for the present.” (33:03)
  • Reflects on forgotten TV shows: “...the biggest show on British TV... no one talks about it now. ...it is weird.” (33:56)

11. The Memory Time Machine

• Brett’s special day:

  • “I really mean it was the best day of my life when I went to Sesame Street... I'd want to sit in... I watched a group of grown people... lying on their backs on skateboards with cat puppets on their hands... I would have extended the day at Sesame Street.” (36:02–37:48)

• Title of special explained:

  • “The problem is I’m still alive. Every day is a vague disappointment. So I wanted this special to be good, but I didn’t want it to be so good that you had nothing to live for. Just the second best.” (38:20)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On writing with love:
  • “You have to love all your characters.” – Brett Goldstein (01:42)
• On the sun as God:
  • “God is the sun, basically. All the religions are like middlemen... whereas the sun is just there.” – Brett Goldstein (06:18)
• On empathy increasing with age:
  • “If you look hard enough at anyone, you can love them.” – Brett Goldstein (19:15)
• On legacy in art:
  • “Reading a book from 200 years ago... is like a hand reaching from the past to hold yours.” – Brett Goldstein (31:49)
• On grief and connection:
  • “When my mom died... she was going to live in the wind. ...Wind is everywhere.” – Rachel Martin (29:37)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Family traditions & irreverent humor: 03:08–04:48
• The spiritual sunset & gratitude: 05:02–07:19
• Stand-up as lifeblood: 09:33–11:47
• Ted Lasso, endings, and emotional goodbyes: 12:19–13:59
• On set friendship & writing with empathy: 14:53–16:34
• Triggering a good cry / Emotional repression: 17:00–18:32
• Love, age, and empathy cycles: 19:15–21:32
• Belief, fate, existence: 23:43–26:58
• Death, afterlife, reincarnation: 27:17–29:37
• On legacy & forgotten cultural phenomena: 31:10–33:56
• Best day at Sesame Street & meaning behind show title: 36:02–38:20

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Episode Tone & Closing

The episode embodies equal parts humor and heart, with Brett Goldstein’s self-effacing British wit intertwined with reflective, poignant dialogue. Rachel and Brett create space for big questions—about meaning, connection, creative compulsion, and how we carry grief—while never losing sight of the comic absurdity of it all. Goldstein closes with classic humility and wit, “Thank you for having me. This has been a very intense therapy session and I am filled with regret for everything that I've said and I will do my damnedest to get this all deleted.” (38:59)

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Useful for Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This summary delivers the full emotional and intellectual landscape of the episode, offering a window into Brett Goldstein’s worldview—his philosophy of writing, his quirky family memories, views on faith and fate, and his ongoing wrestling match with vulnerability and legacy. The episode is a compelling reminder of our shared humanity, packaged with laughter, candor, and gentle wisdom.

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Transcript

[Sponsor/Announcer]

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[Rachel Martin]

hey, it's Rachel. So, the team here at Wildcard, we all thought long and hard about what conversations to leave you with while we're on our brief summer break. Okay, not really that hard because this one was such an easy pick. It's got the perfect blend of irreverence and sincerity, Muppet joy and human heartbreak, and a charming British accent to boot. Yeah, I'm talking about the menchiest of mensches, Brett Goldstein, who's been on my mind because the man just got himself three Emmy nominations for shrinking the show he co created with Jason Segel and Bill Lawrence. And of course, Brett is back as Roy Kent in the much ballyhooed fourth season of Ted Lasso. It's truly one of my favorite conversations. I do give a language warning. We're talking about Roy Kent, after all. Happy summer, and enjoy. What does age teach you about love?

[Brett Goldstein]

I think if you look hard enough at anyone, you can love them. You know, if you're, like, trapped with someone, you're like, oh, fucking hell, this person's so boring. This person's so shit. That's on you. Like, I have to write, ask the right question, and I'm sure there is a key to this person.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wildcard, the game where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one question back on me. My guest this week is Brett Goldstein.

[Brett Goldstein]

My one sort of rule of writing is you have to love all your characters. You have to. Even you're writing the worst people in the world, you, the writer, have to write them with love.

[Rachel Martin]

Brett Goldstein may have become a global sensation for playing a deeply cynical soccer player in Ted Lasso, but at his core, Brett's a guy who loves a big, open hearted story. One that isn't embarrassed to show all its feelings and maybe offer up a lesson or two about how to be a good person, which is what Ted Lasso is all about, and the hit show Shrinking, both of which have Goldstein's creative fingerprints all over them. Also, any person who says with zero irony that the best day of his life was spent with Mupp on the set of Sesame street, well, that's a person who loves humanity as if creating massively popular TV shows wasn't Enough. And hosting his own podcast, Brett Goldstein is out with a new standup comedy special on HBO called the Second Best Night of youf Life. Brett Goldstein, welcome to Wildcard.

[Brett Goldstein]

That was a heck of an intro. Thank you very much. Nice to see you. Nice to see you.

[Rachel Martin]

It's nice to see you, too. Thank you for doing this. This is gonna be fun. All right, here are the first three cards.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two or three?

[Brett Goldstein]

Two.

[Rachel Martin]

Two. What's a tradition or ritual that feels unique to your family?

[Brett Goldstein]

My dad. I don't know where this came from or why it started, and I really don't. And I hope there's not a dark story behind it, but he used to do. When we were little, he did a thing where everyone was called Trevor. And so he'd come home from work and he'd have, like, a bag of chocolates, candies for the Americans, sweeties. And he would. And they would be, like, in a brown paper bag. And he would. Me and my sister would be there and he'd be like. And for Trevor the. Trevor the Great, or Trevor the Stupid, or Trevor the Funny, or Trevor the. Each of us was an adjective. Trevor the something. Depending on. I don't know what was going on. And then when we all went to. We went with a load of people once to Universal Studios when they had, like, the ET Ride. Maybe they still do. And when you went on the ET Ride, you give your name when you queue up, and at the end of it, ET Would go, thank you, Brett, as you went past. Right. But my dad, this is funny. I forget he was really funny. He made all of us say Trevor. So the end of the ride, there's like 20 of us, and it looked like it was broken because ET Was just going, thank you, Trevor. Trevor, Trevor, Trevor. This is funny. I don't know where the fuck Trevor came from.

[Rachel Martin]

I don't know who Trevor is.

[Brett Goldstein]

I don't want to know who Trevor is.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Okay. Three more cards. One, Two or three.

[Brett Goldstein]

One.

[Rachel Martin]

One. What's an early memory of appreciating beauty?

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, man. Maybe I've talked about this before. I don't know if this is too. Woo. Woo. I was, like, always atheist. Like, always thought that there's nothing to it and it's all just sort of random chaos. And I was in Barbados, and I was sat on a rock in the sea. And in front of me was the whole horizon. Nothing but sea, ocean, sorry for the Americans. And. And it was the sunset. And it was so beautiful. It was so fucking beautiful. And I thought to myself, if there is nothing else, there is no God. There is no nothing. Why do I feel the profound urge to say thank you? And that was, you know, I mean, I was like, who am I? Why do I need to say thank you if there's. If this is all just absolutely random beauty? Yeah, yeah. And that was a big one. And then. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, that's a big one. How old were you? Like, when did this happen?

[Brett Goldstein]

How old I was when I started thinking that God, God was the son. I basically was like, oh, God is the son, basically. And that. That's your. All the religions get in the way. All the religions are like middlemen, like brokers going, oh, you want to talk to God? Yeah, I'll hook you up.

[Rachel Martin]

Like the sunglasses.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Whereas the sun is just there. You just look up. There it is. There's everything you need. That's my heartache.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God.

[Brett Goldstein]

I don't know how old I was.

[Rachel Martin]

Not even at the Belief section yet.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, that's.

[Rachel Martin]

But this is helpful because now I have a framework.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, okay.

[Rachel Martin]

But really, I'm still curious. Was this like a young thing?

[Brett Goldstein]

No, I think. Were you in your 20s?

[Rachel Martin]

Was this yesterday?

[Brett Goldstein]

Early 20s? 19. Around then? 19, 20. Maybe a bit older. But I'd always been like a sort of cynical, like, yeah, man, fuck it. And then I was like, oh, shit, it's the sun.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you actually say the words or feel the. I do you do you say out loud, thank you.

[Brett Goldstein]

I say thank you a lot. I say the words I use most are thank you and sorry. They're my three most used words.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, if you were limited, like, if you were on the desert island of language and you only had a few words that you could take with you, those are good words.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Thank you, sir, please. Thank you. Sorry.

[Rachel Martin]

There you go.

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[Rachel Martin]

Let's talk about your special. Okay, so you keep quite busy. There's a lot of things that you do creatively, but a special is a big deal. So were you craving the audience interaction that you get from Stand up in a way that you don't get from acting or producing or writing, which are in contained environments?

[Brett Goldstein]

I've done stand up for years and years. I've done stand up for like 17 years now. And I love it and I always do it. Even when I've been making shows and stuff, I still go and do.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, really?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah, I'm always doing stand up. Like most weeks, I'll do most weeks. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, my God, yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Unless I can't. Unless it's like the filming schedule means I can't. Making a TV or film is wonderful and a privilege and amazing, but it's. It's hard. One of the things that's hard about it is you're managing 200 people and you're. And you're managing execs and you're managing. You're trying to keep a vision and you're having to. Yes. Anthem things. And the thing takes so many turns and you're trying to keep it on a certain path and all of that. And Stand up is the opposite. You go, I just had this thought I could say it right now. Let's see what happens. And I don't have to check with anyone. I don't have to fucking sell it. I just have to try it. And it's incredibly satisfying when it works. And I was. I think I feel a bit mad when I don't do it. Like, I feel a bit like. It's like. I think it's like heroin. As in, I think the first time I did it was a huge, huge, huge rush. I don't think I've ever felt that rush since. But when I don't do it, I feel depressed.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Feel me.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, personally, it sounds terrifying to me to do that, but I can imagine, I can imagine the rush that one would get from that.

[Brett Goldstein]

But it's also the thing of, like, my favorite thing to do is new material. And when I do new material, I realize it isn't really. It's not really saying, is this funny? When you try something, what you're saying is, am I insane? That's really what every piece of new

[Rachel Martin]

material is me going based on the reaction.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, am I insane?

[Rachel Martin]

How do you measure the answer?

[Brett Goldstein]

Well, because if they laugh, it depends on if they laugh. It's like, oh, I'm not alone. You also think this, or you can tell, or sometimes, no, you are insane. But it's okay. We get it if they don't. If it doesn't work, then you truly feel insane. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

The third.

[Brett Goldstein]

Then you go, oh, I am a very weird person. And that's a horrible feeling. And alone.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. I'm completely alone. And I don't. I'm not part of this word.

[Rachel Martin]

So is that a good segue? No. In your show, when you didn't have a good segue, you just turned around and you said, I don't have a good transition for this. So I'm just gonna turn around. So this is me turning around, coming back. Ted Lasso is coming back for a fourth season.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Didn't you go through this whole emotional saying goodbye to this show?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, I did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was very emotional. It's a strange. Yeah, it was. We all cried. We all cried a lot. It's a strange thing. It's like, I have a friend that I went to university with. I think about this a lot. He had a cat that died. His cat loved his cat. And the cat was run over. And they buried the cat. Buried it. And he was a child. They buried the cat in the garden. And he lay in bed so sad. So, so upset and crying. And he prayed and he prayed and he wished. I wish the cat would come back. And it turned out that the cat that they'd buried wasn't their cat. And so the cat came back. And I think about that all the time. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Cause I'm like, accidentally buried a different cat.

[Brett Goldstein]

They buried a different cat. And so I'm like, no wonder this guy's fucked in the head. He's such a weird guy. Cause he thinks he can bring things back from the dead.

[Rachel Martin]

Did you bring Ted Lasso back from the dead?

[Brett Goldstein]

I guess I'm saying I feel like that kid. Like, we buried it. Are you saying it? Are you saying anything could happen? We all cried. We had a funeral. Are you saying we can bring anything back? It's Too much power.

[Rachel Martin]

It's too much power.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's too much power.

[Rachel Martin]

But I'm sure you're all very thrilled. I'm sure it'll be wonderful. Are you writing this thing right now? Like, where are you in the process?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yes. In the writer's room at the moment. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's obviously all I can tell you, I'm afraid.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. No, hey, I respect an NDA.

[Brett Goldstein]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

But can I also ask you about shrinking, which I adore. I love it. I mean, they are both very big hearted shows.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, that's nice.

[Rachel Martin]

I think the word earnest gets a bad rap. They're both very earnest shows. And shrinking, you know, it gathered these people together who genuinely seem to enjoy one another's company. I mean, maybe it was the same on Ted Lasso, but according to my Instagram feed, everybody's like in love with it. Like, they just are all best friends. Is that.

[Brett Goldstein]

That's true. The second pilot I did in LA was for Bill Lawrence. And I remember on day one of it, I was just there as an actor and he said to the cast, I don't want anyone going back to their trailers. You hang out. You hang out here between takes. Like, this show works based on you all getting on in real life. And I think that's really true and a lovely way to work. And also from a writing point of view, my one sort of rule of writing which I had learned is you have to love all your characters. You have to. Even you're writing the worst people in the world, you, the writer, have to write them with love. And I think that is the key to it all. And also, I like the. I think it happens in Ted Lasso and it happens in shrinking. Taking a bad person and then humanizing them and giving them love and then making it harder and harder for an audience to hate them is interesting to me.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. I mean, part of the plot is Jason Segel's character has been this very bad and absent father after his wife has died. And so he has this arc where he realizes that. And it's lovely. It's lovely.

[Brett Goldstein]

And the Ernest thing is like, I don't know, like, it's easy to be cynical. It's harder to be. It's hard to. And I proudly think shrinking is fucking funny.

[Rachel Martin]

It is.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's really funny. But it's.

[Rachel Martin]

You can be both earnest and funny at the same time.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. But it's not embarrassed to be like, hey, man, hey guys, we got feelings and shit. Right?

[Rachel Martin]

Okay. This isn't the next round, okay?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

One, two or three?

[Brett Goldstein]

Three.

[Rachel Martin]

What's your shortcut to a good cry?

[Brett Goldstein]

The Stevie Wonder song lately. That'll do me.

[Rachel Martin]

You're going to be annoyed if I ask I don't know this song. So now I'm saying it to everyone. So I need you to give me, like, a couple bars or something.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's like, lately I've been staring in the mirror. It's basically he's realizing that the person he's in love with is not in love with him anymore. And she's definitely. He's starting to realize that she's having an affair. And she keeps telling him it's fine, everything's fine, but he knows. He knows it's not fine. It's a very sad song. But it's a beautiful tune. And he sounds really upset. He's really singing like it's happening.

[Rachel Martin]

So. Do you ever feel like you want to cry so you turn it on, or it's just when you catch it, then it's just like Waterworks Central.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, no. I hate experiencing emotions and do my best to avoid them at all times. But I do go to the cinema alone to get them out.

[Rachel Martin]

For real?

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, for real. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, I do think there's something about being alone when other people are with other people.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Like being alone together with other people.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, I think you're right. And you're all in the dark.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you cry a lot? Like, is that no part of your personal brand?

[Brett Goldstein]

No, I never cry. Shut up. I haven't cried in years. I mean, I cry at films. I cry in films, but do I cry in real life? I don't.

[Rachel Martin]

I guess I thought you might be, like, a closet crier.

[Brett Goldstein]

No, I'm emotionally repressed.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

I don't know.

[Rachel Martin]

The stuff you write is so. I kind of thought that was like a shtick.

[Brett Goldstein]

No, I mean, I write all this stuff. Cause, you know, then I don't have to live it. Whoa. She's like, I got him. I got him.

[Rachel Martin]

I just. I think that's. It sounds exhausting to live like that.

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, I never sleep. Really, I don't. Next question.

[Rachel Martin]

1, 2 or 3?

[Brett Goldstein]

2.

[Rachel Martin]

2. What does age teach you about love?

[Brett Goldstein]

I read something that Steve Martin said that he found stand up harder as he got older, because maybe not stand up. Forgive me for misquoting. He found the comedy part harder because he had more empathy for people. So it was harder to be mean. And I guess that's where comedy was. I think if you look hard enough at anyone, you can love Them. And I do really mean that. I don't mean that in a. In a cheesy way. I mean it. I mean it. Like, me at my worst. Like, I'm saying this. I don't, you know, want to hang out with people, but, like, you know, if you're like, trapped with someone, you're like, oh, fucking hell, this person's so boring. This person's so shit. That's on you. Like, I have to ask the right question. And I'm sure there is a key to this person that if I ask the right question, I will suddenly be flooded with love for them. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I do. No. Can I nudge on that? How did you come to that realization?

[Brett Goldstein]

I think I've had this cycle with people. I have it where I have it often and I tried to make the cycle shorter, but I've had it on jobs or something where there's a person that I will instantly dislike. Someone I'll be like, oh, this fucking. Like, whether they trigger me or, you know, something about them I find so annoying or they're so fucking pathetic. Something about like, God, they're so needy. I don't know what it is. Something I'm like, get this person away from me. And then something will happen along the way. A couple of weeks in, I'll see something, I'll see anything. And suddenly I will fight to the death for that person. Like, I'll be like, I love. I have so much love for them.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you good at telling people after you've come to that? Like that arc?

[Brett Goldstein]

What do I go?

[Rachel Martin]

I really thought you were an a hole.

[Brett Goldstein]

No, no, they wouldn't. I hope they wouldn't know. I wouldn't say. I thought you were an absolute nightmare. And I was wrong because often they still are. And there's a certain type of person where it's like, you are still a nightmare, but I've now found a way to.

[Rachel Martin]

Right, that's right.

[Brett Goldstein]

Have empathy and love you. And they probably think the same about you. No, come on, Be ridiculous.

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[Rachel Martin]

Okay, this is the final round.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Beliefs 1, 2 or 3?

[Brett Goldstein]

3.

[Rachel Martin]

Have you ever tried to force a belief? You have a flip and a skip.

[Brett Goldstein]

I'm gonna skip, skip, skip it, because I don't think I have. I don't think I have.

[Rachel Martin]

No. How have your feelings about God changed over time?

[Brett Goldstein]

Well, I think we addressed this. I think that God is the Son, basically.

[Rachel Martin]

And you didn't used to think that.

[Brett Goldstein]

I didn't used to think. I used to think there was no God. And I'm like, oh, it's the sun. And by which I mean the universe, but I also do mean the sun. What? What sun People.

[Rachel Martin]

Aztecs.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, I think I'm an Aztec. Yeah, something like that. Aztec, Mayan, something like that. Any religious upbringing, I was like, atheist. Always, always thought it was all stupid until. Until that sunset. And then I was like, oh, yeah, there's something. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Does that extend to you beyond. Wow, this is really beautiful. And it's not.

[Brett Goldstein]

Do I think things are meant to be?

[Rachel Martin]

Is there a pattern? Is there. Yeah. Things that are meant to be or is it just all random?

[Brett Goldstein]

No, I don't think it is all random, but I. But it's hard to. It is, you know, the impossibility of existence is. It's hard to square the magical things with the terrible things. But I do think, you know what, sometimes when, like a really terrible thing happens, I like, wonder if it's. I thought about it, like, is it like an angel having a bad day? Like, they dropped the thing. They were supposed to. They were supposed to hold this thing and they dropped it and they're like, oh, fuck.

[Rachel Martin]

And then there's like an earthquake.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Or someone dies or someone, you know, some sad thing happens. It's like an angel dropped it. You know what I mean? Like, they had a plan. The plan was lovely things. And then. Oh, fuck, I slipped. And now lots of people are dead. You know what I mean?

[Rachel Martin]

I don't know if I'm with you on that one, but if that works for you, then I want that to be your framework.

[Brett Goldstein]

Well, we can't square it, can we? No, we can't, because we can't. I like the idea that everything's preordained, but then why preordain terrible stuff? But then so many magical things also happen. I do also kind of believe the thing that you. You make your. I look.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's about gratitude. And the more you practice it, the more you see wonderful things around you, even in terrible things. And if I. So I do kind of believe this thing of you make your own world. And if you walk down the street and you step in a puddle, that can be, oh, fuck, everything's awful. I've stepped in a puddle and my leg is nowhere. But at the same time, if the sun was out and there was a beautiful person across the street that you were looking at when you stepped in that puddle, and there was music in the air, and there was a song you liked, and there's five other things happening exactly the same time that were beautiful. And if you're paying attention, you go like, bigger picture. This wasn't the worst thing that ever happened. It was just a little bit in this lovely picture. You know what I mean?

[Rachel Martin]

I do.

[Brett Goldstein]

And the more you've practiced that. Train your brain to do that, I think.

[Rachel Martin]

Yep.

[Brett Goldstein]

Maybe it's nuts.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, I agree. Two new cards. One. Two or three?

[Brett Goldstein]

Three. Sorry for the sigh.

[Rachel Martin]

How often do you think about death?

[Brett Goldstein]

Oh, I think about death all the time. Yeah, Well, I do a podcast about death. I'm interested in death. Listen, you know, I'm a workaholic. I do stuff all the time. And I'm sure part of that is because I'm going to be dead soon. You know, got to get this shit done and. But then also, I think there's. I think there's. There's more to it, you know, I think about death all the time. What else is there to think about? Why aren't we all about death?

[Rachel Martin]

So in your newfound religiosity or spirituality, I guess.

[Brett Goldstein]

Aztec mine. Yeah. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Your renunciation of atheism. I don't know if we can call it a renunciation wholesale, but do you think that you die and that's it, you're done, or is there. No, you don't really.

[Brett Goldstein]

I think the closest version of it, and I don't say this as a joke, is the Pixar film Soul, I think is basically What? I think. I think you go. You go up, you have some fun, and then you come back for a whole new adventure. Aztec, Mayan, Buddhist.

[Rachel Martin]

Very, very popular intersection of theologies. Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

So reminds me of that. I think it's. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

You like the idea of that kind of continuity.

[Brett Goldstein]

I don't know if I like the idea. As in. Because part of me goes.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, forever's a long time to keep coming back.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. And that's the thing that bums me out about it also. I've had such a lucky time that I'm like, God, my next life. I don't know what. You know, it seems like. Seems like this was a nice one. Next one, fuck knows. I'm going to be, you know, I mean, I'm going to be a worm counterbalance.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah. Do you think nothing happens?

[Rachel Martin]

No. Well, I don't know is my answer. I mean, who does, Right? No one knows. But I do.

[Brett Goldstein]

I think I was pretty clear that Pixar knows exactly what's going on.

[Rachel Martin]

There was some certainty in how you responded. Pixar's cracked the code to the afterlife.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, I think so.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, I don't think it's just like, you die and then it's over, though. I don't. I don't know what the alternative is. I like the idea of being part of the air and the Earth. Not to get too woo woo, but I like that idea. I've talked about this before, but when my mom died, she was really good at creating this narrative for my siblings and I that she was gonna live in the wind. And that was so helpful. It's so. Because wind is everywhere, right? Wind is. Wind is everywhere. And you can see it manifest and how it moves things. So I love that idea.

[Brett Goldstein]

Do you talk to her in the wind? Yeah, I love that.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, now you're gonna make me cry, Mark Goldstein. But yeah, it was. I think she knew what she was talking about. I think on the one hand, it was a helpful story to tell us, but now that I'm on the other side of it.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And to see that happen, like, I

[Brett Goldstein]

think maybe she knew God, that's very special. And I bet sometimes a wind will happen and it will make you think it's a sign that you need it.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Sponsor/Announcer]

Yeah.

[Brett Goldstein]

I like that very much.

[Rachel Martin]

Well, thanks for letting me tell you.

[Brett Goldstein]

Thank you for sharing it.

[Rachel Martin]

This got serious all of a sudden. Okay, okay, last one. One. Two or three?

[Brett Goldstein]

One.

[Rachel Martin]

Are you comfortable with being forgotten?

[Brett Goldstein]

Great question. Legacy. You're asking about legacy?

[Rachel Martin]

You are A smart chap.

[Brett Goldstein]

Legacy, does it matter? Does anything matter? It'll all be gone in a life cycle of 150 years. I think there's someone I won't name who is a creative, famous creative who said, I don't care about legacy anymore, just make stuff. And I noticed that their output got steadily worse. It's interesting.

[Rachel Martin]

That is interesting.

[Brett Goldstein]

And I, and I'm not saying the two are connected, but I thought that is interesting. And I don't think I think in terms of that like as in I just want to make really, really, really good stuff. Always I just want to make really good stuff. Whether for yourself, I don't, I don't actually think about. I think there's magic in. I think Alan Bennett said it, that there's something magical like reading a book from 200 years ago that if you read it and you feel a connection to it, that it is like a hand reaching from the past to hold yours. And I sort of buy that in terms of art or whatever this thing is like, you know, it's a wonderful life, people still watching it and in fact it didn't work at the time, it wasn't successful. And now it's this thing that people watch every year and it helps them. Like that's kind of amazing.

[Rachel Martin]

I'd like to make something like that, that lives that long.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, sure, why not? Have a go. But I don't think you can work thinking that in your head because otherwise you'll be frozen. You just have to just make stuff for the present.

[Rachel Martin]

Right.

[Brett Goldstein]

And whether anything lasts out of our hands. But yeah, be nice.

[Rachel Martin]

I do think artists are lucky that way that you have a mechanism to do it. But it always kind of freaks me out that I don't know the name of like my great great grandfather. Do you know the name of your great great grandfather or grandmother? I don't know.

[Brett Goldstein]

It's a great question.

[Rachel Martin]

I can guess because everyone, I mean it's probably Henry. Like everyone in my family is like Charles something. But I don't know. The legacy is so short lived for most of us. You know, people remember you and then you're just gone.

[Brett Goldstein]

So yeah, like weird. There's a TV show I don't want to name, maybe how I name it out of sort of respect. But there was a TV show in England that was like 20 years ago, 10, 15 years ago, was the biggest show on British TV. Like the number one watched show and it was a sitcom and it ran for like eight years, 10 years. No one talks about it. Now, like, no one. It wasn't. Yeah, it is weird. It was insanely popular and it. And it's dead. It's fascinating. I don't know why. It just doesn't resonate beyond the time it was in.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, yeah. Right. So you can't. That. You can't. You can't set that as an expectation for yourself as a human or as an artist. As a human artist. But.

[Brett Goldstein]

But are you asking me, would it. Would it be nice? Of course it would be nice. But, yeah. You can't go into it going, I hope this lives forever. I don't think I.

[Rachel Martin]

We're at the end. So the last thing. This is the way we end every episode. It's with a trip in our memory time machine. You pick one moment from your past. It is not a moment you would change anything about. Okay, okay. It can't be the moment on the beach because you already said that one.

[Brett Goldstein]

Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

It's just a moment you would linger in a little longer for whatever reason.

[Brett Goldstein]

A moment from the past. I would like to linger in longer. I absolutely can't. Can't tell you my first answer. Second answer would be, I don't think I'm finding this one difficult, but give me another minute.

[Rachel Martin]

I'd sit here all day.

[Brett Goldstein]

Yeah, okay. Sonny. I'd want to sit in. I mean, for real. I. I say it in the special, but I really mean it was the best day of my life when I went to Sesame street. And there was. And there was a thing that I watched and I could have stayed longer after I did all my stuff. And they were very, very nice to me. And they. They still had more stuff to shoot. And they said, would you. Would you like to go? Would you like to hang out? And I was like, fucking hang out. And I watched a group of grown people, older than me, I believe, on lying on their back on skateboards with cat puppets on their hands, riding into each other and pretending and. And playing catch. Trying to catch a ball in the air whilst pretending, whilst making cat noises. And I thought, this is fucking brilliant. And I did think, I would like to retire here on Sesame street and just do any job on this. Like, it was truly like a collective everyone imbuing this thing with magic. And it was so fun and so lovely and so stupid. Just these fucking adults on skateboards smashing into each other and going. And I thought, that's fucking great. It's great. I could have. So I would have extended the day at Sesame Street.

[Rachel Martin]

It's like, so beautifully analog, too, to

[Brett Goldstein]

think about people rolling around and the fact that it wasn't. At no point are they going, this is mad, isn't it? Like they're just, this is the job. And they're doing their job, took it, you know, seriously enough. They care about it being good. It's still good stuff. And at the same time, they're pretending to be cats and ramming at each other at speed on skateboards. Oh, and the reason the special is called the Second Best Night of youf Life.

[Rachel Martin]

Oh, tell me.

[Brett Goldstein]

Is because of Sesame Street. Because I did Sesame street and it was the best day of my life. And the problem is I'm still alive. Every day is a, you know, vague disappointment. So I wanted this special to be good, but I didn't want it to be so good that you had nothing to live for. Just the Second best.

[Rachel Martin]

The Second Best night of your life is available now on hbo. Brett Goldstein, thank you so much.

[Brett Goldstein]

Thank you for having me. This has been a very intense therapy session and I am filled with regret for everything that I've said and I will do my damnedest to get this all deleted.

[Rachel Martin]

My work here is done.

[Brett Goldstein]

Thank you for your time.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like that conversation, go back and check out my episode with comedian Rob Delaney. He and Brett are these kind of gruff and cynical guys on the outside, but I mean, that barely covers up the fact that they have this really sincere and tender core. I loved that Rob Delaney conversation, and I think you might too. This episode was produced by Summer Tomad and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Gilly Moon. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni.

[Brett Goldstein]

Arthur.

[Rachel Martin]

Theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to [e-mail] we love it when you do. We'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

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