Celine Song is troubled by love

Summary

Wild Card with Rachel Martin

Episode: Celine Song is Troubled by Love
Release Date: July 10, 2025
Host: Rachel Martin, NPR
Guest: Celine Song, Film Director

---

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Wild Card, host Rachel Martin engages in an intimate and unconventional conversation with acclaimed film director Celine Song. Breaking away from traditional interview formats, Martin utilizes a unique deck of cards to navigate through life's profound questions, allowing Song to share personal stories, insights, and reflections that delve deep into her experiences and creative processes.

---

Early Life and Family Dynamics

Celine Song opens up about her childhood, highlighting moments that showcase her early inclination towards directing and leadership.

• Directorial Beginnings: At a young age, Celine exhibited a keen awareness of cameras and storytelling. Reflecting on a home video from around [00:23], she recalls trying to direct her family members to focus on the camcorder:

  "I was like, 'Everybody look at the camera.' I think that would be really the right one."
  ([02:16])

• Immigration to Canada: Song discusses her family's move to Canada when she was 12 or 13, exploring how this transition impacted her observational skills and ability to adapt. She notes that being in a new culture instilled in her a heightened sense of awareness and listening:

  "I feel like it forces you to be a very good listener because you're just trying to read the room."
  ([03:39])

---

Career as a Matchmaker and Its Influence

Before her foray into filmmaking, Celine worked as a matchmaker—a role that significantly influenced her understanding of love, human desires, and storytelling.

• Experiences as a Matchmaker: Although her tenure was brief, Song found the role immensely enjoyable and insightful. She describes how interacting with clients provided her with deep, honest narratives about love and relationships:

  "It's more honest with the matchmaker than they are to their therapist."
  ([16:19])

• Inspiration for Materialists: Drawing from her matchmaker experiences, Celine crafted her new film Materialists, which explores the commodification of love through a high-end dating agency. She analogizes modern love-seeking platforms to armoring oneself against the unpredictability of love:

  "Tinder, matchmaking, everything, those are just ways to go out into the field when there is a thunder coming."
  ([14:32])

---

Themes in Celine Song's Films

Celine Song's work is deeply rooted in exploring the complexities of love, emotional intimacy, and the human condition.

• Love as a Troubled Yet Intriguing Force: Throughout the conversation, Song emphasizes how love both fascinates and troubles her, driving her to create narratives that seek to understand its mysterious nature:

  "I believe that love is something that always troubles me... it's entirely mysterious."
  ([00:59], [13:06])

• Emotional Intimacy Over Rapid Pacing: Contrasting with the fast-paced nature of contemporary media, Song's films prioritize slow, deliberate storytelling and emotional depth. She strives to create spaces where profound moments can linger, allowing audiences to connect on a deeper level:

  "We get to linger in the most profound moments. The power of a long silence..."
  ([01:06])

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Personal Beliefs and Recurring Symbols

Celine shares personal beliefs and symbols that guide her life and creative endeavors.

• Recurring Symbol: The Dead Cockroach: A unique and personal symbol for Celine, the dead cockroach appears during significant life shifts and serves as a catalyst for change. She explains that rather than viewing it negatively, she sees it as a sign to embrace transformation:

  "It gives me the courage because it's such a recurring."
  ([27:48])

  • First Encounter: The first notable appearance of this symbol was during her move to New York City, which later influenced her decision to relocate to Los Angeles, ultimately leading to her first professional writing job:

    "I saw a cockroach, and I think we should spend some time in LA. We went to LA, and the first month I got my first staff writing job."
    ([27:56], [28:09])

• Guiding Truths: Inspired by her directing professor Ann Bogart, Celine adheres to four core principles: show up, pay attention, speak from the heart, and have no expectations. These principles help her navigate uncertainties and maintain authenticity in her personal and professional life:

  "Show up, pay attention, speak from the heart, and have no expectations."
  ([33:14])

---

Reflections on Personal Growth and Relationships

Celine delves into her personal journey of growth, highlighting aspects she has outgrown and areas she seeks to improve.

• Outgrowing Beliefs: She discusses the importance of trusting her instincts over external authoritative opinions, acknowledging past mistakes and emphasizing intuition:

  "Trust your gut."
  ([21:35])

• Expressions of Love: Recognizing her need to verbalize appreciation, Celine strives to express simple, heartfelt affirmations to those around her, especially in her professional relationships:

  "You're so beautiful. You're perfect. You're amazing. I'm so grateful you're here."
  ([21:37], [23:05])

• Embracing Solitude: Celine resonates with Rachel's sentiment about outgrowing a bustling social life, finding solace and fulfillment in being alone and nurturing her own intellectual and emotional well-being:

  "I just got to fill up my own cup, kind of intellectually and emotionally."
  ([20:38])

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Symbolism and Metaphors in Life and Art

The conversation intertwines personal symbols with broader metaphors that reflect Celine's worldview and artistic approach.

• Dead Cockroach as Metamorphosis: The recurring dead cockroach symbolizes metamorphosis and the inevitability of change, mirroring themes of transformation and adaptation in her films:

  "It's very metamorphosis."
  ([29:33])

• Food as a Form of Prayer: For Celine, the act of eating—especially shared meals—embodies a sacred, prayer-like experience. It represents gratitude and a deep appreciation for life's simple pleasures, grounding her in the present moment:

  "When I get to eat, it's like, how lucky that I can just eat."
  ([30:36])

  • Favorite Dish: She recounts a memorable meal at her favorite New York City Korean restaurant, Muno, where she finds spiritual fulfillment in savoring her favorite dish, Ddeokgaibi:

    "It's like a holy experience."
    ([32:23])

---

Conclusion and Closing Reflections

As the episode concludes, Celine Song reflects on a cherished memory from the pre-production phase of her latest film, Materialists. She reminisces about the shared dream and collective passion that brought her team together, likening it to a heavenly experience of collaborative creation:

"It's like heaven for me. We just get to sit here and just dream together about making a movie."
([36:10])

Rachel Martin wraps up the episode by highlighting Song's latest work and encouraging listeners to explore more conversations on Wild Card.

---

Notable Quotes

• On Early Directing:

  "Stop messing around. And I'm so young in it, and I just feel like I'm already, like, trying to, like, boss these adults around."
  ([03:03])

• On Freelance Artistic Identity:

  "I feel like being a freelance artist requires so much like a faith."
  ([06:09])

• On Expectations:

  "You can have expectations. You just cannot believe for even one second that those expectations are going to get met."
  ([34:48])

---

Final Thoughts

Celine Song's candid exploration of love, identity, and artistic creation offers profound insights into the human experience. Through her storytelling and personal anecdotes, she invites listeners to reflect on their own journeys, embracing change, trusting intuition, and finding sacred moments in everyday actions.

---

For those interested in exploring more of Rachel Martin's insightful interviews, be sure to check out her conversation with filmmaker Mark Duplass, where he discusses themes of jealousy, career paths, and personal growth.

Transcript

[Rachel Martin]

Support for this podcast and the following message come from Dignity Memorial. For many families, remembering loved ones means honoring the details that made them unique. Dignity Memorial is dedicated to professionalism and compassion. In every detail of a life celebration, find a provider near [e-mail] Are there any recurring symbols that show up in.

[Celine Song]

Your life every time there is some huge shift in my life every time there's a change. I have often seen a dead cockroach.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh.

[Celine Song]

But you should laugh. It's really funny.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm Rachel Martin and this is Wild Card, the show where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers questions about their life. Questions pulled from a deck of cards. They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one back on me. My guest this week is film director Celine Song.

[Celine Song]

I believe that love is something that always troubles me, you know, And I think that that's really the reason why I get so interested in it.

[Rachel Martin]

There's something countercultural about Celine Song's movies. Like everything in our lives now moves so fast, right? We speed through our social media feeds, our phones are filled with 20 second video clips. Even the pace and dialogue in movies can feel like rapid fire. Celine Song makes movies that force everyone watching to just slow down. And by doing so, we get to linger in the most profound moments. The power of a long silence, A gaze that says more than any dialogue could. She's a writer and director who understands that emotional intimacy is just as important as a good story. And that is clear in both her debut feature, Past Lives and her new film, materialists. Celine Song. Welcome to Wildcard.

[Celine Song]

Hi. Thank you for having me. So excited to be here and talk to you.

[Rachel Martin]

Round one. Memories. First three cards. Here we go. One, two or three.

[Celine Song]

Let's do two, two.

[Rachel Martin]

What's a story your family always tells about you, huh?

[Celine Song]

There's a home video of me where I'm at a family event and I'm very young. I think I'm like six, seven, something very young. And I think that I was like so aware of where the camera is. And I think that I literally am trying to get the adults to pay attention to this camcorder. And I think I'm literally going like, everybody look at the camcorder. Everybody look at the camera insistently. I think that would be really the right one. It's like, everybody go look at the camera.

[Rachel Martin]

Isn't that weird?

[Celine Song]

It's so funny. I mean, I think about it all the time.

[Rachel Martin]

It's like, you didn't you were directing even then?

[Celine Song]

Yeah, I was kind of like, guys, camera's inside. Let's roll.

[Rachel Martin]

Stop messing around.

[Celine Song]

Stop messing around. And I'm so young in it, and I just feel like I'm already, like, trying to, like, boss these adults around, you know?

[Rachel Martin]

Was that sort of your M.O.

[Celine Song]

In your family?

[Rachel Martin]

Were you bossy?

[Celine Song]

I think I'm. I'm. I've been bossy all my life. You know, I'm the eldest daughter. I think that, you know, I'm very in charge. Like, you know, like, I, like, learned English. I was esl, and I learned English. And a part of that is that, like, I learned very fast because I wanted to survive and boss people around, I think. Yeah. You know what?

[Rachel Martin]

How old were you when your family immigrated to Canada?

[Celine Song]

When I was, like, 12, 13, something like that, Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

I wonder if being in observer mode was a safe place for you, too. Like, landing in a new culture, and directors and filmmakers are always observing things, and maybe you got that from that experience, too. Like, if you didn't feel a part of something, maybe it felt safer to just sit and look at it.

[Celine Song]

Well, I wonder because, I mean, I'm not necessarily sure if it was. I got to observe. Because part of being different than other people and then, like, not being great at English is that you're actually center of attention in some ways. Right? Because it's like everybody's looking at you. Maybe they're, like, laughing or they're trying to teach you some mean jokes, you know? Like, I feel like there would just be, like, words that I'm not supposed to know that they would tell me.

[Rachel Martin]

I mean, isn't that a sign that you're sort of in, like.

[Celine Song]

If you mean in a way. But then I would know what they. I didn't know what that is, but I would just repeat back, and then I'd get into trouble. But I don't think that I'm necessarily, like, at the center of attention, but I do think that it helped me figure out how to read a situation. Like, I feel like it forces you to be a very good listener because you're just trying to read the room and understand the power dynamic in the room and to spot people who are feeling a certain way. Right. Which I think, of course, helps me so much. And directing.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you guys get that video out? Like, when you get together with your family? Does everyone bring up the video of Celine directing when she was, like, four?

[Celine Song]

No. I mean, I feel like I saw it once recently. It's very embarrassing.

[Rachel Martin]

Your path Was laid from an early age. Okay, next three cards. Three new ones. One, two or three?

[Celine Song]

Three.

[Rachel Martin]

What's an experience from childhood when you realized your parents were only human?

[Celine Song]

Oh, I think skip, skip, skip. This one. There we go. Yeah, give me another one.

[Rachel Martin]

How do you consciously try to emulate your parents?

[Celine Song]

Well, because both my parents are freelance artists all their lives. I feel like in that way, like it, it's like everything I do, I think that I have a lot of wisdom that I got from my parents. Right. So I get to kind of learn like how to be a graceful and a professional freelance artist, which is like a very specific thing.

[Rachel Martin]

It really is.

[Celine Song]

But because being a freelance artist is such an uncertain, impossible to guess kind of a thing, because every day you feel like you're not a. Every moment that you're not writing, you feel like you're not a writer. And I feel that even now, you know, like, what is my identity? Right. And I'm always like, well, I'm a writer. I haven't written in a couple days. Compared to like, I'm sure if I had a job 9 to 5, you know, I feel like I'm sure I would go and I would do the job and maybe I'll feel a little bit more like I have a job. Yeah. But often I feel like I'm like. Well, I feel like I'm mostly part of saying, like, you're self employed is that you're kind of unemployed until like one day you get a big check. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the thing too. Like the way that the finance works or freelance artists, I feel like it requires so much like a faith because like, I remember literally, like the first year that I got an accountant before this, we, you know, me and my husband, we didn't need an accountant because we were just too broke to have an accountant.

[Rachel Martin]

Right. There was no money to keep track of.

[Celine Song]

No. So we were using corporate tax. And then I remember when we first got our like, big check, you know, we got an accountant. And then the. I remember the accountants asking like, well, what do you expect to make next year? And the answer is, of course, like either one dollar or a million dollar. We don't know. Somewhere in between. Somewhere in there. Somewhere between one dollar and a million dollars. So I think that to me is like, I can imagine that can be really hard if your parents are. What is it? Who's not a freelance artist? Like civilians? Yes. Or like Muggles, Right? Yeah. If your parents are Muggles. Or then you're in a situation where you're like, kind of like. Well, I guess it might be confusing for them if you try to explain like, well, this year, you know, I may make a million dollars or a dollar, but because both my parents are freelance artists, they understand that better than me. Right? Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

Also, they model how to be an artist in your soul. Like, it doesn't matter if you feel like, oh, I haven't written anything in a week, so I feel like I'm not a writer. I imagine them telling you, you get.

[Celine Song]

To decide if you're a writer.

[Rachel Martin]

You are because you say you are.

[Celine Song]

Right, of course. And I feel like it's also like there is a very important kind of power to laziness. Right. Because I feel like there's something that is. I think this is something that we all deal with as modern people. And this is connected to what I want to talk about in my movie, too, of all of us becoming productivity machines. So because of that, I think that there is a very important part of being a freelance artist that is being comfortable with laziness. Right? Yeah. Being very comfortable with doing nothing. Yeah. So it is okay that I don't write for a week. Let's say I don't write for a week because I'm in a mood, you know, or like, the world feels so dark, which we can all relate to right now, but it's like the world feels so dark, so we just want to take a break for a week, like, whatever that may be. I think that I feel very part of the thing that I'm learning is, like, from my parents is that, like, I just get to be comfortable in it.

[Rachel Martin]

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[Rachel Martin]

This podcast and the following message come from. Dignity Memorial. For many families, remembering loved ones means honoring the Details that made them unique. Dignity Memorial is dedicated to professionalism and compassion in every detail of a life celebration. Find a provider near [e-mail] this message.

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[Rachel Martin]

Before we get to round two, I want to pull back and talk about your newest film, Materialist. Congratulations.

[Celine Song]

Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

Your debut film, Past Lives, was like this huge hit, this global hit. And I can imagine that there was some degree of pressure on you with the second one. And so congratulations on being other side of the second one.

[Celine Song]

I mean, I think that's quite true. But also though, I knew that this was gonna be my second movie while I was releasing all of Past Lives because I finished working on Past Lives and there was about six month period between when I finished working on post production for Past Lives and then when we went to Sundance. So there was about a six month period there where I was going a little bit crazy. Yeah. Because I knew that my movie, I had made a movie and I'm a filmmaker, but nobody else in the world knew. So I was feeling a little nuts. And I was like, I'm just gonna write my next movie. So I was thinking back on what was a movie that I really always wanted to make. And I worked as a matchmaker in my 20s. I know.

[Rachel Martin]

I can't believe that I need to know more details, but yes, continue.

[Celine Song]

So in my 20s, I worked just as a day job because I was broke. And then I remember thinking as I was leaving that job that I'm gonna write something about it one day. And so I was like, okay, let me figure out how to crack this particular story. And then.

[Rachel Martin]

So how did you build from your experience as a matchmaker into this particular story, which is another sort of love triangle? I mean, you had like a defined love triangle in past lives. I mean, I mean, you do love. Love, Celine.

[Celine Song]

I mean, I love. I love. I feel like I believe that love is something that always troubles me, you know? And I think that that's really the reason why I get so interested in it, because I feel like I always have to make something that makes me feel like I can learn something from it. Right. So because of that, I feel like I keep getting interested in something that I'm always quite troubled by. And the reason why I'm so troubled by is because it is so entirely mysterious. Right. Like every day I have. Whatever. Like, you know, every day I'm a director. Like, you know, I have. I have to answer questions all day. I have to be smart all day. And then there's this one domain in human life where the only answer is that you have to let yourself be a complete fool and not very smart at all. And you just have to let go. Let go and, you know, give in, try not to control it and then just say, I don't know. That's just how I feel. Right? Which makes me feel like I'm. I don't know. Love makes love. Love sometimes sounds like true love, sometimes sounds like it's Santa Claus. Right? Yeah. Like I feel like. And I think in that way, it's a source of endless fascination for me. So. And it's a universal theme. I think we're all very baffled by it, all of us.

[Rachel Martin]

Does that mean you think it's worth it to throw your life savings at a high end elite dating agency? Seriously?

[Celine Song]

No, no, not at all. Well, I think I talk about this with any kind of like a dating industry things like the apps, the matchmakers, all of those things, right. The thing about those things is, like, well, if you to think about love as a miracle in a way that you think about lightning, right? Tinder, matchmaking, everything, those are just ways to go out into the field when there is a thunder coming and then like, you know, putting out, you know, your arm with like a metal rod or a fork, right? That's why you are on Tinder. That's why you're on hinge or whatever all of those things are, so that you might be struck by lightning, which is a miracle, you know, and you're trying to like, arm yourself with a little antenna to be like, okay, I hope it hits me today.

[Rachel Martin]

Did you personally help anyone find their lightning match when you were a matchmaker?

[Celine Song]

Well, I mean, I didn't do it for very long. I only did it for six months. How come?

[Rachel Martin]

Because you were just like, this is not for me.

[Celine Song]

No, it's because I was having too much fun. What? I was having too much fun working as a matchmaker. So it was supposed to be a day job that's supposed to help me pay for my life while I'm writing. But I wasn't writing because it was too enjoyable.

[Rachel Martin]

Really?

[Celine Song]

Oh, yeah, it's really fun. Well, it's fun because you get to learn the very real and very intimate parts of a person. And especially a person that as like a broke artist, I wouldn't get to meet, like, how would I know this? Like, love, like, desires and who they want to date of a person who's like a private. Like, I wouldn't meet that person. Right, right. But I would get to meet them as my client, and then they would tell me.

[Rachel Martin]

And that person has longing.

[Celine Song]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. And that person will describe somebody they want. And you just learn so much. Because it's so frank. Right. Because the matchmaker, they're very frank. I always say it's. They're more honest with the matchmaker than they are to their therapist. Right. Because a matchmaker is supposed to get you something. Right.

[Rachel Martin]

This is your shot, so you better be honest.

[Celine Song]

So you gotta be real. So you gotta explain to me exactly what you're looking for in a way that you might. You might describe a car or a house. Right. It's kind of like talking to a real estate agent and being. It's like, I needed to have three rooms, this budget, but then didn't that.

[Rachel Martin]

Feel kind of skeezy? I mean, in the film, it's clear that a lot of that felt, like, not that awesome when someone's like, I can only date this race and they have to be this tall.

[Celine Song]

Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

And there are all these attributes that aren't very soulful. No.

[Celine Song]

But I think it's like, it's still a really fun game. Right. And I don't think that. I do think that a part of it was eating at me, of course. But I think it was still, like, really fun to see that, to really hear what people thought love was. Right. Yeah. And then I also was just married at the time. I had gotten married a few months before, so I knew that, like, what love and marriage felt like for me, and it was the thing that all my clients were looking for. But none of those things would work when it comes to, like, what me and my husband were as the objects in the marketplace that they were looking for. Right. So as in, what I mean is, like, you know, they're talking about, like, height, weight, income, age, you know, they're talking to me about, you know, what they were looking for in numbers. But I also knew that if I asked my husband, like, why did you.

[Rachel Martin]

Want to marry me?

[Celine Song]

Why? Why do you love me? I don't think he would say a single number, and I wouldn't say a single number to him. Right. Because if we did, I'm sure that, you know, it probably would have been a problem that, you know, I think combined our. At some point, our combined household income was like $25,000 a year. So I don't know if we would have. I don't think we would have met any of the minimums of any of my clients. But still, what we were doing together, which is to be married and we're still married, is that like, you know, all of these things actually have nothing to do with the statistics. Right. The numbers or material things that they were looking for in their partner.

[Rachel Martin]

Round. Two insights.

[Celine Song]

Okay. Okay.

[Rachel Martin]

Three new cards. One, two or three?

[Celine Song]

Two, two.

[Rachel Martin]

What's something you've outgrown?

[Celine Song]

Hmm. What did I outgrow? Can I have a second to think about it?

[Rachel Martin]

Yes.

[Celine Song]

Just because I'm trying to think, please, I'm going to ask you.

[Rachel Martin]

I knew you were gonna do that. I was sitting there being like, yes, taking it, because I feel like you might flip it. And I don't have an answer for this.

[Celine Song]

I'm flipping it. Let me think about mine. Okay, let's both think. I know now. Okay. You do? I do. I figured it out. Wait, did you go first? I think I should go first. No, you go first. Oh, man.

[Rachel Martin]

Something I've outgrown. I've outgrown my social life.

[Celine Song]

Oh, wow. I love it. No, I love it. I was like, oh, my God. This answer is gonna be.

[Rachel Martin]

I don't know if that's right. Oh, and I can just hear all my friends being like, Rachel. I have grown into the ability to be alone in a way that I think I came up against for a lot of years. And so I've become, in my grand old age, more discerning about. About how I spend my time. And I've outgrown having some big social life. I don't need it. And it doesn't actually serve me very well. I need a lot of time to fill up my own cup, kind of intellectually and emotionally.

[Celine Song]

No, that's a great thing to outgrow. Don't let anybody feel any other way. That's awesome. So what's your answer? Well, my answer is that it's the belief that. It's the belief that somebody knows something that I don't know that's so good. I mean, I think it's like, I just. I'm kind of realizing over time that so many people tell you things with so much authority, and it's like, you know, people will just tell you certain thing and I'll be like, okay. Well, they're really, you know, they have an amazing job. They have. They have a lot of experience. I don't have enough experience. They must know. And then I would just watch them be wrong, and then I'll be like, oh, no, you were wrong. Why did I think that you were right? And, in fact, I had this feeling where I thought you were wrong. And then I also had a feeling that this other thing was going to happen, and it did, you know? So trust your gut.

[Rachel Martin]

Trust your gut. Trust your gut.

[Celine Song]

Trust your gut.

[Rachel Martin]

One more in this round.

[Celine Song]

1. 2 or 3? 3.

[Rachel Martin]

What's an expression of love you're trying to get better at?

[Celine Song]

Um, oh, I think, like. Like, very simple, stupid, kind words. You know, this is something that. It was so funny. Like, I feel like once, my first ad, who I'm very close to, he wants assistant director. Yeah, yeah. He's an assistant director. He once said. I think I asked him, I was like, what am I not doing? You know, what am I not doing about day? And he said, well, I think it's been a while since you told the actors that they've been doing a good job. And I was like, oh, my God, you're right. And I do think they're doing a good job. And sometimes what happens is that, like, I'm so. Even when I'm really excited, like, I feel like sometimes I'm like, oh, that was awesome. So you must already know that you're awesome. Right. Because I see that you're awesome. So why would you need somebody to tell you you're awesome? It's awesome. But the truth is, you have to sometimes just very simply say, you're so beautiful. You're perfect. You're amazing. I'm so grateful you're here. I appreciate you. You know, I think that I'm not strong on words of affirmation. You know what I love about that answer is that.

[Rachel Martin]

And it could be for privacy purposes, but your first instinct wasn't to go to friends or your husband, but it was to talk about how you demonstrate.

[Celine Song]

Love in your job. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

With people you work with.

[Celine Song]

Yeah. Well, I think that's true about my. My friends and my husband as well. Really? Yeah. Because I'm like, you must, you know, with my husband. I'm like, you must know. Like, we share a bathroom together. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like, we sleep. We sleep next to each other every night. Every night. You must know I like you. Like, you must know I love you. And then, of course, once in a while, I have to be like, yes, of course. But it is nice to hear. So I should just say, you know.

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[Rachel Martin]

Beliefs?

[Celine Song]

Yeah, beliefs.

[Rachel Martin]

Three new cards. Okay, 12 or 3?

[Celine Song]

2.

[Rachel Martin]

Are there any recurring symbols that show.

[Celine Song]

Up in your life? Um, yes. Is it something you can share? Yeah, it's a. It's an unexpected answer. It's a cockroach. Yeah. Every time there is some huge shift in my life, every time there's a change or there is a demand for change, maybe I'm not willing to change it, but clearly there is change coming, whether I like it or not. So I have to adjust. Every time there is a moment where I'm growing up in a hard way, I have often seen a dead cockroach.

[Rachel Martin]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh.

[Celine Song]

But you should laugh. It's really Funny.

[Rachel Martin]

It's just super surprising.

[Celine Song]

It is super surprising. I think that, like, it's so funny because usually a dead one. So once in a while it's a live one.

[Rachel Martin]

Or do you literally.

[Celine Song]

No, no, no. I literally see. I literally see one and I'm always like, what is this? Right? I see it and I'm like, oh, my God, what's going on with my life? Am I okay?

[Rachel Martin]

But it seems like a negative omen. A dead cockroach.

[Celine Song]

Well, I actually think.

[Rachel Martin]

How do you connect it?

[Celine Song]

It doesn't feel negative because it does mean that, like, something's gonna, like, I'm gonna make a decision to change my life or something. Like, it's kind of like a catalyst, right? It's very. Like, it's a change. Yeah, it's a change. Death is a change. Death is a change. I mean, like, it's kind of like. And you see it and it's always, like, right in my path. Like, it's never, like, in a corner, like, right outside my door. Like, just like, things like that. Right.

[Rachel Martin]

Does it help you make a decision towards change? Does it help you accept change to see the dead cock?

[Celine Song]

Yes, it gives me the. Usually gives me the courage because it's such a recurring. It's been such a recurring thing. Right.

[Rachel Martin]

Do you remember the first time.

[Celine Song]

I mean, just as I was. I think that moving to New York, you know. Yeah. So I think that, like, I was, like, triggered most people who moved to New York City. That's what I mean. It's kind of the first time. So maybe it's. It does feel connected to New York City, of course. But I've lived here all my life, so it's like, you know. Yeah. I remember literally, like, whenever I have a crisis of faith about, am I doing the right thing? Sometimes that cockroach will appear and I'll be like, I think I do have to do that thing. It's the reason why I moved to LA for eight months, too. I saw a cockroach, and I think I remember coming home to my husband and I was like, I saw that cockroach, and I think we should spend some time in la. I went to la, and the first month I got my first staff writing job ever. Like, first professional writing job ever there after a month, which I think was ultimately a really good thing and an important change. But I remember that's when I really clocked it as, like, oh, that's a thing.

[Rachel Martin]

That's incredible.

[Celine Song]

I know. It's funny.

[Rachel Martin]

And it makes me think on the one Hand that you should get a dead cockroach tattoo. But then I say that out loud, and I think that maybe you shouldn't.

[Celine Song]

Maybe I shouldn't. Because it's a cockroach. It's not cute. You can't make that cute.

[Rachel Martin]

You can't make it cute.

[Celine Song]

No, you can't make it cute.

[Rachel Martin]

Maybe abstract, but, yeah, very Kafka.

[Celine Song]

I mean.

[Rachel Martin]

Yeah, right?

[Celine Song]

Maybe that's what it is. Very. You know, it's very metamorphosis.

[Rachel Martin]

It totally is. I love that. And now I also, as your fan, want there to be some random homage to the cockroach popping up in your films.

[Celine Song]

Yeah. Oh, my God. I'm gonna look. I'm gonna look to see if I could see one. Scurry across one day. One day, and you'll know. You'll be like, that's it.

[Rachel Martin]

That's it.

[Celine Song]

She's really using her life over there. There's change. There's something's changed.

[Rachel Martin]

Walking across.

[Celine Song]

That's good.

[Rachel Martin]

Three new cards. 1, 2 or 3?

[Celine Song]

1.

[Rachel Martin]

Is there anything in your life that feels like praying?

[Celine Song]

Oh, oh, food. Yeah. Does it? Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

The cooking of it. The sharing of it.

[Celine Song]

Eating. The eating.

[Rachel Martin]

The actual eating of the food.

[Celine Song]

Like a great restaurant, like my favorite restaurants, like, you go and you order what you always order, and you get it, and then you just do nothing. And usually, I don't usually eat alone. Whoever I'm eating with, my friend or my husband, whoever. You sit and you eat, and it's like. It's very holy to me. Yeah. Food, say more. Eating, I think, is something that I feel so lucky to get to do in a way that I want. Right. Because, of course, hunger is an epidemic. Well, hunger is a crime. But, yeah, it's like. So I think that I feel so lucky. It's very, like, blessed is a meal vibes a little bit, like, being like. It's like, oh, how amazing that I get to eat something. I eat something that I love so much. And it does feel like I'm saying, like, very much yes to life, you know, so in a very humanist way, I'm very like. You know, when I get to eat, it's like, I'm like, how lucky that I can just eat. I get to eat, you know? So that's one of the ways that I feel very grounded in the way that I know I'm an atheist, but, you know, in a way that people who have religion might feel of being. It's like, how lucky that I'm sure their God guides me and provides for Me, I'm like, that's kind of how I feel. I'm like, how amazing, how lucky I am that in my time on earth that I get to eat something delicious.

[Rachel Martin]

What's the last most deliciously prayerful meal or dish that you've had?

[Celine Song]

Well, I mean, I feel like my favorite restaurant in New York City is this place not far from where I live. It's a Korean restaurant, Muno. And I just like going there and I like getting there. What's called Ddeokgaibi. And you just get to eat. It's like a. Yeah, it's like a mashed up beef. And it's so delicious. I eat that and I'm always like, ah. I'm like, this is a holy experience, you know, I think that's beautiful.

[Rachel Martin]

Okay, last one. Celine. One, two or three?

[Celine Song]

Three. Three. Yeah.

[Rachel Martin]

What truth guides your life more than any other?

[Celine Song]

There is this incredible piece of wisdom that I got from my directing professor. I was sitting there as a playwright, but my directing professor in my theater school at Columbia is Ann Bogart, who is one of the most important experimental theater artists of all time. And she has it in this book, the four rules in anything, anything that we have to do as people, which is show up, pay attention, speak from the heart, and have no expectations. And I think about this whenever I'm in doubt, whenever I'm feeling, like, insecure, or whenever I'm feeling I don't know what to do today. I don't know what to do about that. That's stressing me out. That experience I'm scared of, that. I always go back to this, which is that you just have to show up, pay attention, speak from the heart. And then, of course, the hardest of all. Have no expectations. Yeah. You know, having no expectations, I think is because the other things are a little bit easier to do. Right. But I agree. It's the expectations that are hard. It's the expectation that's really hard. So I've kind of tried to make it work for myself. That the final mantra, which is that, like, I may have expectations, but I'm going to know that it is not going to hold.

[Rachel Martin]

That seems realistic.

[Celine Song]

You can have expectations. You just cannot believe for even one second that those expectations are going to get met. Yeah. And if they do, fabulous. If they don't. That's how it is. You know, There will always be a dead cockroach somewhere. There will always be a dead cockroach somewhere. Let me watch me walk out of this room and see what they're.

[Rachel Martin]

Wait what happens when you see an alive one? Doesn't carry the same meaning.

[Celine Song]

No, I don't think so. Yeah, it's weird because they haven't changed. Yeah, it's still. They haven't changed. Yeah, they're not dead. You think? You're right, because I think the cockroaches I know are hard to kill.

[Rachel Martin]

They're notoriously hard to kill.

[Celine Song]

They're notorious hard to kill. So to see it dead, I think is remarkable.

[Rachel Martin]

I see you ended it on such a beautiful note, and then I had to, like, debase your beautiful truth with another dead cockroach. So we end the show the same way every time with a trip in our memory time machine. So in the memory time machine, you pick one moment from your past to revisit. It is not a moment you would change anything about. It's just a moment you would like to linger in a little longer. What moment do you choose?

[Celine Song]

So funny. I think that it was just a day where I think that we were all in the pre production office. Production office for Materialists. And all my department heads were there, and we were there. And I think that I was just sitting in my room feeling so lucky and happy to get to make a movie. And it's not a particular day, but it's like a one day where everybody's there and everybody's just working on making this movie, you know, because what it is like to be a director is that you have a dream of this movie you want to make, and then you just start infecting other people right, with that dream. And then everybody else starts burning up for it too. Everybody starts becoming devotional and passionate about this thing that was just a dream I had. And then eventually everybody's just hard at work working on this movie because they all now believe in the dream together. And I think I remember, like, being in my office alone and knowing that in every other room in this office, somebody is working on this movie, you know, I think, yeah, I feel like I could have lived there forever. It was so sad when we had to leave because we had to eventually leave and start making the movie, but. Right. But I remember just being like. It's like, oh, my God, like, this is just heaven for me. You know, we just get to sit here and just dream together about making a movie.

[Rachel Martin]

Celine Song her newest film, Materialists, is out now. Celine, thank you so much.

[Celine Song]

Thank you.

[Rachel Martin]

If you like this conversation, go back and check out my episode with another filmmaker, Mark Duplass. Mark opened up about feeling a little bit jealous of some of his peers, in particular John Krasinski, who played Jim from the Office, and we talked about the path that he didn't take as a musician.

[Celine Song]

I think you're gonna like it.

[Rachel Martin]

Today's episode was produced by Lee Hale and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was mastered by Patrick Murray. Wildcard's executive producer is Yolanda Sangweni and our theme music is by Ramtin Arablouei. You can reach out to [e-mail] we'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. Talk to you then.

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