Wild Card with Rachel Martin

Episode: Celine Song is Troubled by Love
Release Date: July 10, 2025
Host: Rachel Martin, NPR
Guest: Celine Song, Film Director

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Wild Card, host Rachel Martin engages in an intimate and unconventional conversation with acclaimed film director Celine Song. Breaking away from traditional interview formats, Martin utilizes a unique deck of cards to navigate through life's profound questions, allowing Song to share personal stories, insights, and reflections that delve deep into her experiences and creative processes.

Early Life and Family Dynamics

Celine Song opens up about her childhood, highlighting moments that showcase her early inclination towards directing and leadership.

• Directorial Beginnings: At a young age, Celine exhibited a keen awareness of cameras and storytelling. Reflecting on a home video from around [00:23], she recalls trying to direct her family members to focus on the camcorder:

  "I was like, 'Everybody look at the camera.' I think that would be really the right one."
  ([02:16])

• Immigration to Canada: Song discusses her family's move to Canada when she was 12 or 13, exploring how this transition impacted her observational skills and ability to adapt. She notes that being in a new culture instilled in her a heightened sense of awareness and listening:

  "I feel like it forces you to be a very good listener because you're just trying to read the room."
  ([03:39])

Career as a Matchmaker and Its Influence

Before her foray into filmmaking, Celine worked as a matchmaker—a role that significantly influenced her understanding of love, human desires, and storytelling.

• Experiences as a Matchmaker: Although her tenure was brief, Song found the role immensely enjoyable and insightful. She describes how interacting with clients provided her with deep, honest narratives about love and relationships:

  "It's more honest with the matchmaker than they are to their therapist."
  ([16:19])

• Inspiration for Materialists: Drawing from her matchmaker experiences, Celine crafted her new film Materialists, which explores the commodification of love through a high-end dating agency. She analogizes modern love-seeking platforms to armoring oneself against the unpredictability of love:

  "Tinder, matchmaking, everything, those are just ways to go out into the field when there is a thunder coming."
  ([14:32])

Themes in Celine Song's Films

Celine Song's work is deeply rooted in exploring the complexities of love, emotional intimacy, and the human condition.

• Love as a Troubled Yet Intriguing Force: Throughout the conversation, Song emphasizes how love both fascinates and troubles her, driving her to create narratives that seek to understand its mysterious nature:

  "I believe that love is something that always troubles me... it's entirely mysterious."
  ([00:59], [13:06])

• Emotional Intimacy Over Rapid Pacing: Contrasting with the fast-paced nature of contemporary media, Song's films prioritize slow, deliberate storytelling and emotional depth. She strives to create spaces where profound moments can linger, allowing audiences to connect on a deeper level:

  "We get to linger in the most profound moments. The power of a long silence..."
  ([01:06])

Personal Beliefs and Recurring Symbols

Celine shares personal beliefs and symbols that guide her life and creative endeavors.

• Recurring Symbol: The Dead Cockroach: A unique and personal symbol for Celine, the dead cockroach appears during significant life shifts and serves as a catalyst for change. She explains that rather than viewing it negatively, she sees it as a sign to embrace transformation:

  "It gives me the courage because it's such a recurring."
  ([27:48])

  • First Encounter: The first notable appearance of this symbol was during her move to New York City, which later influenced her decision to relocate to Los Angeles, ultimately leading to her first professional writing job:

    "I saw a cockroach, and I think we should spend some time in LA. We went to LA, and the first month I got my first staff writing job."
    ([27:56], [28:09])

• Guiding Truths: Inspired by her directing professor Ann Bogart, Celine adheres to four core principles: show up, pay attention, speak from the heart, and have no expectations. These principles help her navigate uncertainties and maintain authenticity in her personal and professional life:

  "Show up, pay attention, speak from the heart, and have no expectations."
  ([33:14])

Reflections on Personal Growth and Relationships

Celine delves into her personal journey of growth, highlighting aspects she has outgrown and areas she seeks to improve.

• Outgrowing Beliefs: She discusses the importance of trusting her instincts over external authoritative opinions, acknowledging past mistakes and emphasizing intuition:

  "Trust your gut."
  ([21:35])

• Expressions of Love: Recognizing her need to verbalize appreciation, Celine strives to express simple, heartfelt affirmations to those around her, especially in her professional relationships:

  "You're so beautiful. You're perfect. You're amazing. I'm so grateful you're here."
  ([21:37], [23:05])

• Embracing Solitude: Celine resonates with Rachel's sentiment about outgrowing a bustling social life, finding solace and fulfillment in being alone and nurturing her own intellectual and emotional well-being:

  "I just got to fill up my own cup, kind of intellectually and emotionally."
  ([20:38])

Symbolism and Metaphors in Life and Art

The conversation intertwines personal symbols with broader metaphors that reflect Celine's worldview and artistic approach.

• Dead Cockroach as Metamorphosis: The recurring dead cockroach symbolizes metamorphosis and the inevitability of change, mirroring themes of transformation and adaptation in her films:

  "It's very metamorphosis."
  ([29:33])

• Food as a Form of Prayer: For Celine, the act of eating—especially shared meals—embodies a sacred, prayer-like experience. It represents gratitude and a deep appreciation for life's simple pleasures, grounding her in the present moment:

  "When I get to eat, it's like, how lucky that I can just eat."
  ([30:36])

  • Favorite Dish: She recounts a memorable meal at her favorite New York City Korean restaurant, Muno, where she finds spiritual fulfillment in savoring her favorite dish, Ddeokgaibi:

    "It's like a holy experience."
    ([32:23])

Conclusion and Closing Reflections

As the episode concludes, Celine Song reflects on a cherished memory from the pre-production phase of her latest film, Materialists. She reminisces about the shared dream and collective passion that brought her team together, likening it to a heavenly experience of collaborative creation:

"It's like heaven for me. We just get to sit here and just dream together about making a movie."
([36:10])

Rachel Martin wraps up the episode by highlighting Song's latest work and encouraging listeners to explore more conversations on Wild Card.

Notable Quotes

• On Early Directing:

  "Stop messing around. And I'm so young in it, and I just feel like I'm already, like, trying to, like, boss these adults around."
  ([03:03])

• On Freelance Artistic Identity:

  "I feel like being a freelance artist requires so much like a faith."
  ([06:09])

• On Expectations:

  "You can have expectations. You just cannot believe for even one second that those expectations are going to get met."
  ([34:48])

Final Thoughts

Celine Song's candid exploration of love, identity, and artistic creation offers profound insights into the human experience. Through her storytelling and personal anecdotes, she invites listeners to reflect on their own journeys, embracing change, trusting intuition, and finding sacred moments in everyday actions.

For those interested in exploring more of Rachel Martin's insightful interviews, be sure to check out her conversation with filmmaker Mark Duplass, where he discusses themes of jealousy, career paths, and personal growth.